Quote - Pjz99
As you like quoting from my home page heres one for you. “I have no time for idiots, those that cannot see beyond there own back yard.”

 

Ok, let's keep it civil. any more of these things and I'll lock the thread and start handing out warnings.

Quote -
I had gotten a look at his homepage, reviewed it again to be sure.  I guess I don't see what others are seeing. 
My interpretation of his homepage comments are that hes not here to make friends and he feels that some people are more interested in trivial things than ones he feels are important issues - perhaps this has left him somewhat bitter? 

You can interpret it whichever way you want. That doesn't mean I'll see it in the same light.

Quote - Regardless Im not sure how this in any way at all relates to his feelings on whether or not an item should be marked clearly for commercial or non-commercial use. 

It relates to his general approach to things, as I described earlier.

Quote - I don't see the habitual beligerance you are referring to? 

Well, if you don't see it or don't want to see it after I explained where I see it, I can't be of any more help.
 

Quote - *TBH what he said is somewhat akin to your statement "I'm not that much of a people person to be nice to every nut out there." 

You're not going to see me acting all surprised or whining and complaining if someone stands up and says they don't like that statement. I'm also not using it as a lead and intro of my character into a social environment (As in, it's not sitting as the main focal point on my home page. I don't illustrate myself as my life rebolving around it.) Rather large difference in degrees.

You're also not going to see me using this kind of an approach with merchants or freebie providers in an attempt to suggest a change.
You may see it if I'm venting, and not hoping for a resolution.

Quote - Maybe his sentiments are poorly worded - I'm not sure if we should run him through the ringer for that.  I'm not trying to propose some "turn the other cheek" philosophy here.  Im saying we just might want to make sure that the person actually punched us, instead of maybe accidentally bumped us before we proceed to all out brawl action.

As I said earlier, I'm an introvert and I don't have that kind of emotional and social energy. If you wish to spend more time and energy digging past the prickly facade to the good part, it's a good thing.  I used to be like that. The older I get, the less desire and energy I have to extend myself to be nice to and understand the difficult types - especially online. Trying to be nice to ill behaving people wears me out very very quickly nowdays.

If that means you'll see me or what I say as bad or not as nice as I could have been, well, so be it. I can live with it.

Nah Connie, I see you as just as good of a person as I always have, and will continue to regardless whether or not our opinions differ on individual issues.
A single forum thread could not or would not make me see a person in any other light. 

I do think it takes as much energy to respond negatively as it does to respond positively.  Maybe moreso?  It definately weighs on me more when in a negative debate with someone than when in friendly conversation.  If it is the opposite for some then I cant really have an opinion on that as I've never been in those shoes.

and for those thinking "non-commercial use for freebie" issues are anything new..

2001 thread in Complaint & Debate Forum

posted more for fun and nostalgia

You should have seen a recent 24 page debate on the subject in DAZ commons.
I'm seeing some of the faces and same arguments from that one in here.
Happy happy joy joy

Human nature doesn't change in a span of a few decades, or even in the span of a few centuries.... scrap that, make it a few millenia.

 quote from me earlier

Quote - " I think where some of the conflict comes from is the term "free stuff" for a product that many of us see as being akin to "here's a free cupcake I made for you which you can put on your table but you can't eat it.""

And quote from Penguinisto
Actually,  it would be more like "here's a free cupcake that I made, just don't go around selling the recipe, or charging others admission to look at it, please." ;)

/P

Well my normal use of poser and I am certain from all the responses to these types of thread, that most people think the same, is that I use poser to make my art that belongs to me, to do with what I will without restrictions, so for me it is the eating of the cupcake.  I would not use something that made art that didn't belong to me.
I don't think anyone here even remotely mentioned wanting to sell the mesh.
Love esther

*"I don't think anyone here even remotely mentioned wanting to sell the mesh."

*Nope, not that I saw either.

"Human nature doesn't change"

Agreed on that account too.  Change takes energy. 

 Imagine if the bought stuff at renderosity said not for commercial renders.  No one would buy it.  Free stuff, in my mind, is just bought stuff but free. If it's got other restrictions that bought stuff doesn't have then it isn't really free stuff, it is something else.  something that still is useful to some people though.
The thing that worries me is that so many people are accidentally downloading it, especially new people, and putting it into their runtimes.  Only to find, as they learn about poser, that it's not something they should have in their main runtimes, but in a separate runtime or not on their puters at all.  I feel sorry for people who have accidentally downloaded it without realizing.
Love esther

The point is, IMO, that free stuff can have whatever restrictions the creator wants to put on it, because they're providing it as a favour to the community
Paid stuff is different. when you're forking over money you have the right to be picky.

Wheatpenny said “The point is, IMO, that free stuff can have whatever restrictions the creator wants to put on it, because they're providing it as a favour to the community”.

Your right.

I said as much in my 1st post. That is not the issue.

What I am trying to get improved is the labelling on the details tab.

From some of the comments here, it is not clear/helpful to the free stuff providers or those that download it.

soul taker, yeah, i understood your point right from the start. I was responding to a few other peopel about the idea of putting restrictions on things.

Quote - The point is, IMO, that free stuff can have whatever restrictions the creator wants to put on it, because they're providing it as a favour to the community
Paid stuff is different. when you're forking over money you have the right to be picky.

I agree with you on this that the creator has a right to decide whether commercial or non commercial use for what she/he provides for free, I also see Soul Taker's side too about the labeling of commercial vs non commercial.

How ever  what you have on your home page ST is kinda of arrogant and is something that is more for High school. Most sites would have you change it or have you banned.

np wheatpenny ty
(i think i am getting the hang these acronyms)

what has my home page got to do with this topic.
For crying out load. dose that void me from have a valid point?
Is free speech alright so long as its inline with yours?

As people are making such a big thing about my home page. I will change it so that people may better understand it.

It’s supposed to be a slap in the face. It’s to get people to take notice of what’s really important in the world.

I have no interest in what you think, feel, dream of or want.

(you are not important)

You do not know me, I don’t want you to.

(I am not important)

I have no time for idiots, those that cannot see beyond there own back yard.

(really dose it need an explanation)

The world around you is ether dieing or killing each other & you sit there

thinking all is well.

(wake up from your sleep walk and do something that matters.)

I'd love to see that freestuff commercial/non commercial use categories expanded to allow 'some rights reserved'

Maybe if there are  four or five levels...
Something similar to this:

1. Non commercial and commercial use allowed with no limitations.

**2. Non commercial allowed, please give credit where practical for commercial use.
** *Note: 'where practical'!! this would mean, if it's one of 30 freebies in a complex scene, it's not practical to give everyone credit. When it''s one of three main items in the scene, and there's space for commercial credits, please give credit'

3. Non commercial allowed. . Commercial: Small time commercial (under $1000 a month) allowed with no royalties. Give credit where practical  Over $1000 a month, please contact the author for individual agreements.

**4. Non commercial use with credit where practical. Commercial use: Please contact the author for commercial use cost and permissions. No commercial use allowed without an agrement with the author. ** Or maybe have - no commercial use considered at all. This one may need to be thought through little more.

Then allow the freebies to be filtered by those four categories.  I think something like this may make it easier for everyone involved.

Sorry I got side track for a moment.

Yes Conniekat8 if not something like that.then something very close. Could we be getting somewhere?

I see a light. I don’t know if it’s the end of the tunnel or an express train rushing towards me.

Quote - what has my home page got to do with this topic.
For crying out load. dose that void me from have a valid point?
Is free speech alright so long as its inline with yours?
As people are making such a big thing about my home page. I will change it so that people may better understand it.

It’s supposed to be a slap in the face. It’s to get people to take notice of what’s really important in the world.

I have no interest in what you think, feel, dream of or want.

(you are not important)

You do not know me, I don’t want you to.

(I am not important)

I have no time for idiots, those that cannot see beyond there own back yard.

(really dose it need an explanation)

The world around you is ether dieing or killing each other & you sit there

thinking all is well.

(wake up from your sleep walk and do something that matters.)

Now I can think of better ways to make people notice. IMO yours is not the best by far.

No it does not void you from having a valid point but sometimes it is easier to be heard when you speak softly that shouting.

Quote - what has my home page got to do with this topic.
For crying out load. dose that void me from have a valid point?
Is free speech alright so long as its inline with yours?

Well, here's how it usually goes.... Your initial post came across very strong and combative, as if you're about to start biting off people's heads...

What happens online, when there's post of that nature, people wonder is this guy just momentarily upset, or is he one of the types that's always looking for an argument (this is when they don't know you)
So, people go an look at your home page in hopes to help them understand your point of view.... and they see more stuff that comes across combative.  So.... they end up responding in a harsh manner, sort of focusing on the negativity.
That's just how social interactions tend to work.

Does that mean you may not have a valid point. Not it doesn't mean that. But what does happen is that with all the combativeness that came up front, byt the time they get to contemplating the point you're trying to make, perople end up deciding that they don't want to listen to you.

Negatives and positives don't have 1:1 relationship (any married guy can attest to that :tt2:)  it takes ten positives to reassure people that the last negative was unintentional and even more to make them forget it.

As for freedom of speech, it only protects you from government prosecution for speaking your mind. It doesn't mean you can say wahtever you want and suffer no social consequences (like being judged negatively, having people yell bac, IRL smack you around or similar) if one or more people don't like it.
If you have opinions and voice them, there will be counter opinions, on the original matter and on the manner of delivery of those opinions. It all falls under the joys of social interactions. Aren't they grand?

As for you'renot important, I'm not important, well, everyone is important, but to a degree. On a grand scheme of things, everyone's importance is close to equal, and w have most importance to ourselves and our families, then it diminishes as the sphere of influence widens. That too is normal. Many times unfair, but, normal.
I was justreading one of Dick Francis novels, and one of his characters has a tendency to keep saying 'Life's a bugger!'

Seems to me, all SoulTaker's trying to get across is for folks to be consistant, and not change the rules between the download description and the read me.
Doesn't seem unreasonable.

Quote - Seems to me, all SoulTaker's trying to get across is for folks to be consistant, and not change the rules between the download description and the read me.
Doesn't seem unreasonable.

Actually, trying to get a few hundred people, most of whom aren't even reading all this, to be consistant about details may not appear to be unreasonable, but in reality, it's very unrealistic.

Have you ever tried giving what seems like clear instructions to 100 different peaople and watching what happens? Usually a mess.  Seems like it would be simple, but when you introduce a human factor, the reality ends up messy. Especially when it comes to freebies, volunteer work and similar efforts depending on people's interest, good will and free time.

I used to think it's a simple thing too. Had to learn the hard way it isn't as simple as it seems.

Conniekat,
Actually, I do know quite a bit about that. :)
I'm the owner of a racing web site where I have to do everything from configuring and maintaining my servers to policing my forums. While not quite in the same league with Daz or Rendo in total traffic, my forum traffic levels are competitive with either (about a half-million forum page views and a couple thousand posts daily).

Maybe I'm thinking that freestuff providers should be held to a higher standard than regular users, I don't know. It just doesn't seem that complicated to me to make sure the permissions match between the description and the readme. Hell, I never read the readme's and don't even download anything that doesn't allow for commercial use.
If someone is going to be obsessive about their intellectual property, they should at least be responsible for clarity in usage permissions.

But, there you go--opinions. :)

Here is a solution to the "Great Freebie Debate" - Take out the freebie area all together! This way you have no one complaining about them.
There is a Freebie forum here and the content creators can post a blurb about what they are offering. This way no one here or in any other forum are complaining about such a small trivial issue as whether commercial or non commercial use.

 It can't be that trivial an issue if so many people are getting excited and posting  though can it?
I don't think your idea to disband it totally is all that constructive.
Love esther

Quote -  It can't be that trivial an issue if so many people are getting excited and posting  though can it?
I don't think your idea to disband it totally is all that constructive.
Love esther

Was being rhetoric. You know cut off the limb that bleeds instead of using a band aid?

 I'd try applying local pressure first, but that's the doctor in me.
Love esther

**And once again, the issue is not whether it is for commercial or non-commercial use.

It's about remaining consistent about the labeling between the usage allowed when uploading it and the readme.
**

Quote -  It can't be that trivial an issue if so many people are getting excited and posting  though can it?

...you must be new here. ;)

(said in mere jest).

--

As for consistency? Heh - good luck. The absolute best freebies come from folks to whom English is a hobby, not the language they conduct business or personal conversation in. You have a bajillion countries and cultures with a wild variety of definitions for "commercial" and "non-commercial"

In all seriousness? So what if it takes a minute or two to sit down and figure out the terms of this or that freebie? If it bothers you that much, don't use it.

Lookit - I've skipped on a lot of what appears to be kick-ass scenery freebies because I personally don't like the hassle of storing .pz3's instead of storing the components, and don't feel like loading it just to sort the bits and bobs out into .lt2 and .pz2 files. But that's just me, and I certainly don't plop into the fora to complain ab't it, because while it would be nice, the guy didn't have to build the things and offer them in the first place, you know?

/P

**

**

Quote - I am getting really pissed off with free stuff.

Nice to see gratitude so clearly expressed.

Quote - Get it bloody sorted. I have better things to do with my time.

No need to shout.
Just don't use free stuff anymore. Make your own or buy stuff.

Since renderosity checks the freebies anyway, they could have a look into the readme and check if the flag is set right and correct it. It would be a great service for the big bunch of freestuff lovers, who dislike funstuff (to use the labels defined earlier in this thread).

For me, further categories wouldn't be nessesary, but I wouldn't have problems with them. For me, no commercial use would include "no commercial use" and  "for commercial use, you have to ask for permission", all for renders of course. Commercial use would include "Commerical use allowed with credits", "Commercial use allowed as long as revenues are below 1000$" and "Commercial use allowed".

Anyone have problems with this definition?

 bantha that would be awsome!

Bantha's right - though my take is for 2 categories only.

Plus a visual indicator on the page like the small icons in the MP. Say red for all commerical use OK. Or Blue for non.commerical .

Obviously you need some form of checking to ensure the right box is, or has been ticked.

Oh, and this of course assumes that someone actually bothers to read the readme file (I have to be here - I hardly ever do).

Just as important is the wishes of the creator. Using the example of the cross prop which said not for nasty satanic thingys in freestuff. Thats more of a tricky issue, while I respect the belifs of the creator, they might not be mine, so whats the score there ?         

 the trouble is so many creators are worried about people selling their files, which no one here wants to do.  what interests the user is if it can be used for commercial render or not. so we do need a coloured dot for that.  that is the most important thing for us users.  both categories should state not for file reselling.  I don't think anyone really wants their .obj files sold by others do they?
Love esther

I don't think so too. A freebie is for your renders, not for you to sell the file itself. After all, everyone can come here and download it for free - at least as long as it's offered.

It seems as if I wasn't expressing that clearly above: Two categories would be enough for me as well. I just wanted to illustrate how I see those two groups and what would be included in which.

Quote - As for consistency? Heh - good luck. The absolute best freebies come from folks to whom English is a hobby, not the language they conduct business or personal conversation in. You have a bajillion countries and cultures with a wild variety of definitions for "commercial" and "non-commercial"

If in doubt, it's not commercial usable. This does not change.

Quote -
In all seriousness? So what if it takes a minute or two to sit down and figure out the terms of this or that freebie? If it bothers you that much, don't use it.

Actually, that's mostly what I do - not downloading the stuff at all. I really don't know why it's too much to ask the people for a correct description, especially if they just need to click once to change it. But the flag is a (in my opinion good) service to the community, so it should be correct - or it can be switched off entirely.

at last could we be getting there

Is it time for the cat pictures yet?

Quote - I don't think so too. A freebie is for your renders, not for you to sell the file itself. After all, everyone can come here and download it for free - at least as long as it's offered.

I have seen it happen on Turbo Squid with one of my freebies not too long ago. They downloaded and modified a little and tried to sell it as theirs. Turbo squid pulled their whole store (98 items). I received a check from Turbo squid for $50 for my troubles this might have caused. They (turbo squid) never told me how much that person made off of me.

I agree with the first post. I find that confusing as all hell.

If it's commercial just say so.

How can something be both commercial and non-commercial?

What's up with that anyway. I like to know if something is commercial

so I can use it in my published renders.

Quote -
How can something be both commercial and non-commercial?

Trolltech does that with their Qt programming library.

If you use their libs to build a non-commercial and/or Open-Source project*, you pay them nothing, and they even give you a ton of goodies (and a sweet little IDE) with which to use their library code.

If you use Qt for a commercial and/or closed-source project (see also DAZ|Studio), you get to pay Trolltech ~$6k per seat in license fees, per platform (e.g. Windows, OSX, etc).

*(The OSS license you use has to conform to one already published at the OpenSource Initiative).

/P

>> How can something be both commercial and non-commercial?

There are different types of "commercial". For example, it's one thing to use it in a commercial render; it's quite another to sell the thing as part of a larger package. Some folks dont allow commercial work in the form of derivatives, like for-pay textures for a for-free product. Just depends on what you mean by "commercial", because it's not a one-size-fits-all definition when it comes to these things.

 why not have two categories of free stuff - one for allowing commercial renders and one not for commercial renders.  And then in both groups in the readme it could say, don't sell my meshes but your renders are yours.
ie let the person who wants to make renders know immediately prior to download, and the guy who wants to sell other people's meshes find out after he downloads it and installed it that he's got the wrong thing hehe, instead of us doing that for once. Actually I doubt that would be anyone s none of us want to sell other people's meshes.  we use poser to make renders.  The people who take meshes and resell them wouldn't be looking at readmes anyway.  
Love esther

Quote - The people who take meshes and resell them wouldn't be looking at readmes anyway.  

But if you state your license as "All commercial use OK" you don't have any grounds to stop any kind of commercial use, so if you do catch them, you couldn't legitimately get it stopped.

I always put in mine that commercial use is allowed, but selling the meshes or derivatives thereof is not allowed

 just needs to very clearly say commercial renders are or not allowed prior to the downloading part, and then a lot of people would be very  happy.  (also a lot of downloading would come to a complete stop.)
Love esther

With the exception of the one guy at TurboSquid I sure would like to know where all these "mesh thieves"  are selling all these stolen meshes at.  Since for me I'm only aware of a couple stores where the traffic is high enough to make any money at all off of something.

In all the rush to praise the generosity of freebie providers and immediately silence anyone who offers  up any critique on the process we seem to forget what the freebie provider does get - name recognition - which = up to $$ in the marketplace so I hear. 

I think then that it is reasonable that the consumer ask for changes if those changes are warranted.  Which in this situation that has caused many to stop utilizing the freebies at all I think that they are warranted. 
I apologize for my audacity Ill get my shrine back up in short order :p

Quote -
In all the rush to praise the generosity of freebie providers and immediately silence anyone who offers  up any critique on the process we seem to forget what the freebie provider does get - name recognition - which = up to $$ in the marketplace so I hear. 

While a lot of freebies you see today aren't much more than marketing items, there are still a lot of freebie makers who aren't really in it for the dough.

IMHO, no need to worship anyone... but why bother making stuff and giving it away if you just get more hoops to jump through? The readme file should be sufficient, and whoever tests the free stuff can sort it if they desire.

/P

Bitch n Moan Thread is what this thread is all about. If you want to skip that thread read this

Nyguy,
If all the freebie makers are actually soooooo incredibly sensitive that they prefer to not recieve any critique whatsoever on thier beloved creations than perhaps they should add that to thier read me as well ;)

Feedback is a useful and productive thing - The way some people are acting in this thread as if it's the most rude thing in the universe is baffling.  I do appreciate being labled a moron, thief and any other number of things simply for agreeing with feedback though, Im sure the others who gave it do as well.  Oddly, nobody who gave the feedback called anyone any names or brought up such absurd accusations - Now who is rude?

It's seriously beginning to be akin to communist accusations from the 60s or something.
"OMG YOU WANTS TO GIVE me feedback - HOW DARE YOU, you communist!!!!  You must want to sell my stuff that I worked so hard on for profit, you evil - Aunt who makes sweaters hating BAD PERSON!!!!!!!!"

Quote - Nyguy,
If all the freebie makers are actually soooooo incredibly sensitive that they prefer to not recieve any critique whatsoever on thier beloved creations than perhaps they should add that to thier read me as well ;)

Feedback is a useful and productive thing - The way some people are acting in this thread as if it's the most rude thing in the universe is baffling.  I do appreciate being labled a moron, thief and any other number of things simply for agreeing with feedback though, Im sure the others who gave it do as well.  Oddly, nobody who gave the feedback called anyone any names or brought up such absurd accusations - Now who is rude?

It's seriously beginning to be akin to communist accusations from the 60s or something.
"OMG YOU WANTS TO GIVE me feedback - HOW DARE YOU, you communist!!!!  You must want to sell my stuff that I worked so hard on for profit, you evil - Aunt who makes sweaters hating BAD PERSON!!!!!!!!"

I would love to get some feed back on my stuff I have in the free section here or at my site.  All I was doing was posting something someone might find interesting.

*But if you state your license as "All commercial use OK" you don't have any grounds to stop any kind of commercial use, so if you do catch them, you couldn't legitimately get it stopped.

*Thats why you'd have an assumpation akin to what Jeff states - namely that it's only the end use of the freebie (for example renders or animations) thats permitted.

The actual freebie is automatically protected - so no one could take it, change a bit and sell it on t/squid or wherever. 

*re - the issue of feedback
*I'm always pleased to get feedback on freebies and products and If you look at most negative feedback it's either because ...

the writer doesn't have a clue on how to use the item

the writer has an axe to grind against the artist 

the writer finds it's easier to criticise than compliment.  *