Quote - She was angry because she usually likes to do that sort of thing in person :P

Most likely. 

Quote - Just because they moved to a more modern medium then clay or marble doesnt diminish their work in the least.

That depends upon who you talk to.  Some have one opinion on the subject, while others have another opinion.  As has been pointed out elsewhere: there are some "artistic traditionalists" who deny that anything which is done on a computer can be properly called "art".  The reasoning being, I suppose, that it takes real talent to physically sculpt a statue or paint on canvas -- and to do it well.  Whereas any otherwise-artistically-incompetent techno-geek can "master" a software program -- and then use it to produce something that they have the temerity to dare to call "art".  Truly artistically gifted people can do it the old fashioned way, and without any artificially-generated help.  The underlying thought being that physical sculptures and paintings derive from genuine artistic talent: and that CG creations derive from jumped-up technically-adept -- but artistically challenged -- PC game players.

BTW - I'm not saying that I agree with such reasoning.  Don't misread me on that.  But such reasoning does exist -- and it can be instructive to point such thinking out to some individuals who wish to classify the use of a certain software tool as automatically invalidating any "so-called art" that might happen to come out of it.  Perhaps they will see the mirror; but then again: perhaps they'd rather ignore it.

On the other hand, I'll agree with the "traditionalists" this far:  sure, a high-end program user might possess more technical skill than an average Poser user -- but technical skill is what he's demonstrating.  In the PC / CG / 3D world -- I think that many people tend to confuse technical skill with artistic talent.  In the same manner that some imaginative & grammatically correct typists are mistaken for writers.  This is not to say that all top-end 3D software users are merely glorified techno-wannabe-artists.  But some fair number of them are, IMO.  And yet they pride themselves over something that they have no justification being proud about.......other than to show us all that they can push buttons on a screen better than anyone else can......while the software programmer does all of the real work.  The difference being that the programmer doesn't usually refer to what he does as "art".

Quote - How many of the renders in our galleries can make that kind of claim, NVIATWAS or otherwise ?

I wouldn't know.  Depending, of course, upon what the question is.

Top-end produced images can be every bit as hackneyed in their own way as any Poser image that's ever been produced.  It's just that it requires more technical skill in order to produce a better-looking version of artistic junk.

Heh - it's always amusing to hear the palaver of some self-proclaimed guru of 'highend' 3d art bash Poser because of the types of images created in that low-end app. Lots of people like to 'talk the talk' like they really know something about 3d art but if you ever get the dubious honor of actually viewing their art you see right away that they just can't 'walk the walk' and create anything that's actually worth viewing. Endless streams of mechanical dreams and architectural settings that have all the cool charm of a visit to the dentist's office.

Art has never been about the tools and one thing that's certainly true is those that 'can' do and those that 'can't' pontificate endlessly about how it's supposed to be done. Poser is a figure oriented application and so it's no surprise that the majority of images created in it are about figures, nude or otherwise - jeez, get over it already!

I just can't see what all the ruckus is about anyway - but it sure is entertaining. What's even more entertaining though is matching up the so-called experts with their galleries - now that's really fun stuff.

• Rick

As has been pointed out elsewhere: there are some "artistic traditionalists" who deny that anything which is done on a computer can be properly called "art". Some perhaps, but not all. Probably not even most, which raises an interesting question. “So what?” On the other hand, I'll agree with the "traditionalists" this far: sure, a high-end program user might possess more technical skill than an average Poser user -- but technical skill is what he's demonstrating. In the PC / CG / 3D world -- I think that many people tend to confuse technical skill with artistic talent. A sculptor might be adept at modeling clay in real life, but if he takes up Zbrush and produces similar results in a computer program he ceases to demonstrate his artistic talent? An artist paints pictures with oil on canvas but if he paints in Painter X it is a mere technical skill devoid of talent? Why, I wonder? What is it about computer art that saps the talent away and leaves a raw, technical husk? I'm being facetious, of course. The proof is in the pudding and denial is just a river in Egypt. (For further details, check the Zbrush gallery at Pixologic.)

hmmm.. sort of reminds me of DaVinci calling Michelangelo an unkempt brute covered in stone dust, and Michelangelo referring to da Vinci as a flattery-seeking paint-dabber... or something to that effect. Which they both did. We're maintaining a tradition here! ;)

Quote - Endless streams of mechanical dreams and architectural settings that have all the cool charm of a visit to the dentist's office.

Depends on portrayal, really.

Also, maybe a parallel is in order...

I know a lot of C/C++ and Java programmers who will happily slag on .NET/VB programmers as mere wannabes. Sure, they all make programs that do their basic intended function. OTOH, the complaints and debates begin when it comes to efficiency, elegance (yes, elegance), security, and flexibility. C/C++ is definitely higher-end of the two - you can use it on any OS, it is highly efficient, and in spite of its ungodly complexity, you can make it do some really beautiful things. Java, though ungodly complex and somewhat arcane in its knowledge-set, is a workhorse of the professional end of programming. At the higher-end of the software development field, a programmer who doesn't know C/C++ or Java is pretty much out of a job 9 times out of 10. They get paid well, and for a damned good reason. At the other end, you have a lot of folks who hammer out Windows-only stuff in VB and .NET...  You can get stuff written in VB or .NET into C/C++ (or even Java) form, but it ain't easy, and takes a shitload of work to do. Stuff written in .NET/VB have a limited range, an average variety of applications, and for the most part it's Windows-only*. Microsoft has improved these over the years, but it's full of quirks, bugs, and problems that make it difficult to work with at times, and still somewhat limited.

Is this starting to sound familiar? It should. Replace C++ with 3DS Max, Java with Maya, .NET and VB with Poser 7 and 4, respectively. Now it should sound familiar, no? :)

The end result (be it "aesthetic renders" or "applications") doesn't really matter in the context from which it is being viewed. What does matter, and is being examined, are concepts like flexibility (what all can you do with it?), elegance (that is, how clever and time-efficient are you at reaching your goal with a tool without sacrificing quality?), interoperability (does it play nice with others?), extensibility (think "render farm" as a ferinstance), and marketability (can you get a job with this, let alone a career?)...

'course, in the case of the article that kicked all this off, the guy was having a bit of fun. Problem is for many, he's embarrassingly right in his observations, and any cursory peek at Renderosity's galleries will not only confirm it, but holy shit - will confirm it in spades. Now sure - a deeper peek will reveal a lot of gems buried in the manure, but you still have all that manure sitting around. ;)

/P

• You can take .NET code out of Windows with the Mono project, but like Reiss Studio's plugin, it'll be a royal bitch and will require some tweaking. ;)

Quote - 'course, in the case of the article that kicked all this off, the guy was having a bit of fun. Problem is for many, he's embarrassingly right in his observations, and any cursory peek at Renderosity's galleries will not only confirm it, but holy shit - will confirm it in spades. Now sure - a deeper peek will reveal a lot of gems buried in the manure, but you still have all that manure sitting around. ;)

I'm not sure anyone objects to the observation that there is a lot of crap uploaded here. As you say, it's obvious if you do a little browsing. The difference seems to be with how offended some are by it, as in they think people should be discouraged from posting crap through either moderation or public scorn. I don't worry about it too much. I'd rather people have fun with their hobby, no matter how bad they are at it, because this is a casual site and there is no need to weed people out. We aren't trying to select for the modeling masters here. If you want to see professional level work, you can go to a professional site.

*Quote: 'Sure, they all make programs that do their basic intended function. OTOH, the complaints and debates begin when it comes to efficiency, elegance (yes, elegance), security, and flexibility. C/C++ is definitely higher-end of the two'

Funny that attitude hasn't changed much over the years too. I recall hearing that same sentiment expressed 12 years ago or maybe even longer. Microsoft hailed VB as being the next best thing to sliced bread and a lot of (in-house) programmers used it. But to hardcore C/C++ programmers they were regarded as being duffers :)

I don't disagree with your point either. I've been using Max since version 2.5 and a lot of other 3d apps as well mostly in the construction of my 3d models but I like using Poser for my renders. I've seen a lot of spectacular images made in Poser and a lot of poor ones made in the higher end apps. Maybe they were more techinically proficient but very cold and sterile in subject matter. For as many NVIATWSs as you could find in a Poser gallery you could find an equal number images made in 3ds/Maya that looked like standard 3d boilerplate as well.

I don't think that anyone would seriously challenge the technical supremacy of the higher end 3d apps over Poser but it's amazing how so many users of those apps look down on Poser images just because they are created in such a low end 3d app. You couldn't argue back from a piece of text as to which word processing app it was created in and I think the same thing applies to 3d art as well.

• Rick

Hi,

Hmm...  one thing I like doing is watching the supplemental DVDs that come with some movies, usually there is a lot of interesting stuff having to do with CG, interviews with CG artists and examples that show screen shots of some of the apps and works in progress that are going on in the artists workshops.  Pretty cool stuff.  One that I saw recently showed some 3D models that were under development at the time, and one thing I noticed was that they didn't really look much different than a lot of the content I have seen created for poser, which made me smile a bit while watching the video.  The television can't do justice to what is on the monitor, of course, but the models looked primitive and amateurish with no texturing and animations that were not near a finished product yet. 

The guys and gals on the videos are some of the top artists in the 3D art world, modelers, animators, texture artists, etc.  They also show the finished models near the end of the video and they look pretty amazing with texturing, finished animations, etc.  But I remember thinking that it is possible to create some great 3D without being the top in the field if you have the time, the patience, a love of 3D art and a good computer, lol.  That's one of my biggest roadblocks;  my machine is old and has a lot of mileage on it, so I am pretty limited in what I can do without bringing the darned thing to its knees.  I also have a physical condition that is much like rheumatoid arthritis;  a systemic disease that effects the connective tissue making my joints ache like they are full of broken glass a lot of the time, especially after I have been on the computer for several hours at a stretch working on a model or poser render...   lol

But I guess that's the moral to the story, at least in a way, we all have to work with what we have at the time, machine-wise, content-wise, experience-wise, imagination-wise, ect. 

I'd love to get my hands on one of the workstations they are using in those videos, at first I wouldn't have the slightest idea how to use it, of course, but that's how I felt about poser and 3Dsmax about 9 months ago, although I still have a long, long way to go...   lol  

I really admire a lot of the modelers and artists here, it's all interesting and just a heck of a lot of fun, at least for me anyway....   ;-)

M

Quote - > Quote - 'course, in the case of the article that kicked all this off, the guy was having a bit of fun. Problem is for many, he's embarrassingly right in his observations, and any cursory peek at Renderosity's galleries will not only confirm it, but holy shit - will confirm it in spades. Now sure - a deeper peek will reveal a lot of gems buried in the manure, but you still have all that manure sitting around. ;)

I'm not sure anyone objects to the observation that there is a lot of crap uploaded here. As you say, it's obvious if you do a little browsing. The difference seems to be with how offended some are by it, as in they think people should be discouraged from posting crap through either moderation or public scorn. I don't worry about it too much. I'd rather people have fun with their hobby, no matter how bad they are at it, because this is a casual site and there is no need to weed people out. We aren't trying to select for the modeling masters here. If you want to see professional level work, you can go to a professional site.

Remember Sturgeon's Law, "Ninety percent of anything is crap," which was Theodore Sturgeon's response to the claim that 90% of science fiction was crap.

lol,

that's true..

I was a professional musician many years ago, and one thing you learn very quickly as a performer is that no matter how good you are, there will always be someone out there who thinks your work is crap...    lol

;-)

M

Quote - As has been pointed out elsewhere: there are some "artistic traditionalists" who deny that anything which is done on a computer can be properly called "art".

Some perhaps, but not all. Probably not even most, which raises an interesting question. “So what?”

Saying that is to miss the point.  And in an odd way: to get the point at the same time -- while probably still missing it, but stumbling over it in the dark. 

Quote - On the other hand, I'll agree with the "traditionalists" this far: sure, a high-end program user might possess more technical skill than an average Poser user -- but technical skill is what he's demonstrating. In the PC / CG / 3D world -- I think that many people tend to confuse technical skill with artistic talent.

A sculptor might be adept at modeling clay in real life, but if he takes up Zbrush and produces similar results in a computer program he ceases to demonstrate his artistic talent? An artist paints pictures with oil on canvas but if he paints in Painter X it is a mere technical skill devoid of talent? Why, I wonder? What is it about computer art that saps the talent away and leaves a raw, technical husk? I'm being facetious, of course. The proof is in the pudding and denial is just a river in Egypt. (For further details, check the Zbrush gallery at Pixologic.)

It's a good thing that no one stated nor argued that all high-end 3D'ers are mere technicians without artistic talent.  But many of them are.........which was the point.  Yet their "tools of the trade" don't get slammed for that reason.

Marcus55:
I have to agree with a few of the posts that I just can't understand why someone would waste their time knocking other forms of 3D art, websites or apps.  All I can say is they must have too much time on their hands...  lol

Well - seems to be just a form of contact. Maybe if they were hugged more often, they would stop knocking.

Poser is primarily a tool for manipulating premade content created by the high-end 3ders. Just because it has a clumsy interface and a limited renderer doesn't mean you can't do good things with it. Again (not counting persistence) talent is the key ingredient for good results. Not all tools are equal. Paint global illumination with a brush, or render it in Vue if can afford to. You won't find it in a workable condition in Poser. I don't know why anyone who can afford better would want to use Poser for rendering.

Robert:
*No, no, no.......now we return to defending the high-concept Art of a high-end-CG-generated version of a completely naked Angelina Jolie strutting around in a dark cave. 

WHERE? WHERE?

*"But honestly, it's like putting matches into the hands of a three-year-old, then leaving him to mind the petrol station. Just think about it: no longer will the terabytes of fantasy swords, 'glamorous' women and microbikinis be confined to the safe ghetto of sites like Renderosity."

Why is everyone so upset about this?  It's not like the guy shot your dog or pooped in your bowl of cheerios.

Attached Link: http://www.fmx.de/start.php?lang=E&navi=1&page=pages

Not all tools are equal. Paint global illumination with a brush, or render it in Vue if can afford to. You won't find it in a workable condition in Poser.

I don't know why anyone who can afford better would want to use Poser for rendering.

*The ice you are walking upon couldn't be any thinner. I just returned from fmx/08 congress&fair, and Poser, never would have expected that, in fact IS something the guys out there DO use.

(I admit, that was a surprise for me)*

I never claimed people don't use Poser. There wouldn't be Poser forums if people didn't use Poser. Hell, even I use Poser for poseing my figures and others. Considering that the main thrust of Smith Micro's Poser Pro was to export Poser scenes into decent renderers, I don't think the ice is too thin to support.

Well you don't drop a demo reel made in poser here  http://jobs.cgsociety.org/apply_for_job.php/?search_query=%26keywords%3D%26country%3D%26state%3D%26industry%3D%26job%3D%26job_basis%3D&adidlist=2225&offset=0

Let's keep this in perspective.  Poser is a good pre-vis app,  it's also a good introductory app.

It is not a production app,  if it were so then it would support either fbx or collada file formats both importing and exporting.  Not to mention a plugin for PS CS3.

Arcebus - I think that must be it... lol

• reading a book now with a couple of quotes:

"Know what talent is?  It is the curse of expectation.  As a kid you have to deal with that, beat it somehow.  If you can write you think you were put on the earth to blow Shakespeare away." 

Or if you can paint, maybe you think you were put on the earth to blow a Rembrandt away?  When I realized my work would be at best good, but probably never be great -

" - that voice of disappointed expectation - that cheated child's voice that can never be satisfied with a mild superlative as good - has fallen pretty much silent.  Why should the silencing of that childish, demanding voice seem so much like dying?

(A little off topic perhaps, but oddly interesting nonetheless...   ;-)

M

• As far as most critics go;  they are like the spoiled child who sits on the floor and bawls and pounds his fists because he has been told he can't have another cookie... 

The vast majority of them can't even begin to do the thing they are criticizing, they are just looking for attention since they have basically nothing else to offer; no other way to validate their spoiled little selves...  most of their critiques are just so much meaningless dribble anyway...

Collectively as a people we are disgustingly spoiled here in the US.  We have just about anything we want when we want it, but that's not reality.  There are other people on the planet who have nothing;  they only dream of having what we have.  It is a huge problem for them to even find food and care for their sick on a daily basis, much less have computers and fancy software to run on them.  No one appreciates anything here in the US, or at least very few actually do, so it's no wonder to me that you see and hear people all over putting others down because to them it's all about whoever has the most toys wins.  But that's just so much BS...

All these critics want is attention, but why give it to them?  After raising kids of my own I can say from experience that the best thing you can do is ignore them when they throw one of their little tantrums...  lol

As far as Art goes:  There is only one purpose for all art - It's entertainment, plain and simple.
It doesn't matter what is used or who is using it, if it entertains it has served its purpose end of story.   

 Just one reporters opinion...   ;-)

M

I don't know why anyone who can afford better would want to use Poser for rendering.

Nevertheless, I know  some people here who spent a lot of time in trying to get the best out of Poser, without them poser wouldn't  be such a great application as it is today.
There's an old chinese truth (saying?, I'm dutch so bite me) that you have to invest in your limitations. If you want to take it the easy way, be my guest, but I have great admiration for those who are making beautiful pictures with Poser, inspite of its "poor" renderer.

Best regards,

Bopper.

*Or if you can paint, maybe you think you were put on the earth to blow a Rembrandt away?  When I realized my work would be at best good, but probably never be great -

There was a lunatic here in Holland who threw acid on the "nightguard" of Rembrandt.
I think he had his fifteen minutes of fame like Warhol said,  but by now, the nightguard is restored and everyone has forgotten his name.

Quote - If you want to take it the easy way, be my guest, but I have great admiration for those who are making beautiful pictures with Poser, inspite of its "poor" renderer.

That's cool in the hobbyist realm, but try explaining missed deadlines or sub-par results to the boss/client in a pro environment. ;)

/P

Quote - As far as Art goes:  There is only one purpose for all art - It's entertainment, plain and simple.
It doesn't matter what is used or who is using it, if it entertains it has served its purpose end of story.   M

Well, I have to beg to differ with you here. There's much more to art then entertainment. But yes, entertainment can be a component of it.

Why is there even a need for a debate. Both worlds are completely different. Modelers make models, they make it either to use in-house, or to sell to people like us. Many modelers don't have a clue how to rig something, or how to animate. And many animators can't model anything.

What we do here is 3D art. It's just as valid as fractals, photo painting, modern art, etc (I do admire traditional painters and sculpters more because it takes so much more to do it all with no undo button but that's another story).

As for "3D art" being just a hobbyist thing, again that's BS. Every month there's plenty of reports of publications using Poser characters for illustrations, we also have plenty of people here who have exposed their art in art fairs, and made some money from it, and of course there's the whole marketplace side of things. Go to some of the Florida outdoor art shows and you'll see an interesting trend with 3D artists becoming a regular part of the exposition.

So again, it's 2 very different worlds, but both use 3D and both are just as justified.To say there are crappy Poser renders is totally true. But I've seen crappy 3D models in "professional" games too.  And I've seen some breathtaking pieces made in Poser also. As long as someone who just uses Poser doesn't claim they modeled everything they do, or that modelers don't claim their level of superiority is directly relative to their skill with 3DS MAX, everything will be fine.

Actually we do more than just 3D Art here. There are modelors, riggers, animators, python scripters, actual programmers as well as artists on this site. Rendo is more like the Melting Pot of America  than any Ghetto because it's membership comprises all of the above.

*Melting Pot of America 

• some of us even come from outside of america, small place called "the rest of the world" :)  

*quote: 'Melting Pot of America 
some of us even come from outside of america, small place called "the rest of the world" :) '

I've heard of that place too :)

The melting pot concept is a good one though and it adequately explains the success of places like Renderosity and also the appeal of the lower end graphic apps like Poser. Everything is here both for the newbie and for the pro as well for everyone in between those two poles.

• Rick

I don't think we really disagree, Conniekat, I probably just didn't say it right..  lol

This is from a book written by a great artist about the craft.  He says it much more eloquently than I can:  (this is not a direct quote, I'm just taking from it what applies to art in its visual form; he is talking about the art of fiction, but he also talks about how it applies to art in all of its forms...) -

On Aesthetic Law and Artistic Mystery -

• What the beginning artist usually wants is a set of rules on what to do and what not to do.  Some general principals can be set down, and some very general warnings can be offered, but on the whole the search for aesthetic absolutes is a misapplication of the artist's energy.  When one begins to be persuaded that certain things must never be done and other things must always be done, one has entered the first stage of aesthetic arthritis, the disease that ends up in pedantic rigidity and the atrophy of intuition.  Every true work of art - and thus every attempt at art - must be judged, primarily but not exclusively, by its own laws.  If it has no laws, or if its laws are incoherent, then it fails - usually - on that basis.

Trustworthy aesthetic universals do exist, but they exist at such a high level of abstraction as to offer almost no guidence to the artist.  Most supposed aesthetic absolutes prove relative under pressure. (here's what I basically meant in the above post) They're laws, but they are slippery at best.

Art depends heavily on feeling, intuition and taste.  It is feeling, not some rule, that tells the abstract painter to put his yellow here and there, not there, and may later tell him that it should have been brown or purple or green.

In other words, art has no universal rules because each true artist melts down and reforges all past aesthetic law.  To the true artist, anything whatever is possible. Invention, the spontaneous generation of new rules, is central to art.  And so it follows that for the beginning artist, as for the great one he/she hopes to become, there can be no firm rules, no limits, no restrictions.  Whatever works is good.  One must develop an eye for what - by his/her own informed standards - works. 

My interpretation of what he means when he uses the work "works" is that it makes people feel something, captures their imagination, and hence is entertaining at least on some level.  So IMHO, that is the main purpose of it, the reason for it, and if it accomplishes that much, anything else is open for debate...  ;-)

M

Quote - Actually we do more than just 3D Art here. There are modelors, riggers, animators, python scripters, actual programmers as well as artists on this site. Rendo is more like the Melting Pot of America  than any Ghetto because it's membership comprises all of the above.

...and whining to high Heaven as an art form. You forgot that one. :)

Interestingly enough, most immigrants historically wound up living for a time in a ghetto when they first started out (lack of dough, prejudice from folks born locally, etc - see also the phrase "Irish Need Not Apply").

Now if I were Mental Roy, I'd have compared it to Suburbia - with it's cookie-cutter houses and near-complete aesthetic monoculture. ;)

(cue outrage in 5... 4... 3... 2... )

/P

*quote: Now if I were Mental Roy, I'd have compared it to Suburbia - with it's cookie-cutter houses and near-complete aesthetic monoculture. ;)

"Little boxes on the hillside, Little boxes made of ticky-tacky...'

lol :)

• Rick

The vast majority of them can't even begin to do the thing they are criticizing.

And?

It doesn't take someone with the skills of Tom Morello or Eric Johnson to know that someone is playing an electric guitar in a truly horrendous manner, nor for that matter if someone is playing it brilliantly.

I can't figure skate (hell, I can barely skate), but that doesn't mean I can't differentiate between an award-winning, technically awe-inspiring performance and a routine skated by some shlub who barely manages to land their jumps.

I'm not a published author, but I can certainly tell the difference between  an acclaimed piece of fiction and some Grade-Z piece of crap that at least had the spelling and grammar right but has an absurd plot, cardboard characters and utterly stupid dialogue.

And I'm probably never going to direct a movie, but I can tell the difference between The Godfather Part 2 and Plan 9 From Outer Space.

The "I'm an ARTIST and how dare you criticize my work without demonstrating sufficient skill" argument (and I'll be generous and call it an argument and not what it is, a pathetic whine), aside from being illogical, gets old real fast.

Quote -
And I'm probably never going to direct a movie, but I can tell the difference between The Godfather Part 2 and Plan 9 From Outer Space.

Devil's Advocate: Dude! Plan 9 is art (albeit not artistic in any sort of way that the director intended). The other analogies, okay... but cheesy-as-hell Sci-Fi flicks have sort of taken on a status all its own, as fodder for quite a bit of entertainment (see also Mystery Science Theater 3000).

Now artistically, you'd have prolly done better comparing Godfather (all of them) and Gigli.  Godfather is a masterpiece series, with a compelling (and complete) story, and drama that is palpable. Gigli is a crap attempt at a blatant money-grab, by idiot movie moguls who thought a bit too highly of their talents. Guess which one of the two folks remember?

/P

Well, you could say that every post in this thread is just a whine, but isn't that a whine of sorts??? 

I think the whole point of this is just for people to have a place to talk about things..

...lol

;-)

M

Quote - *Melting Pot of America 

• some of us even come from outside of america, small place called "the rest of the world" :)  

Way to nit pick Sparky! I said it was LIKE the melting pot of America I didn't say it WAS America!

Quote -
...and whining to high Heaven as an art form. You forgot that one. :)

LOL Yeah I neglected a few other groups  that exist around here like the terminally neurotic, The ADD and SAD crowds, The Eternal Victim crowd, the International crowds and many more. Still and all, Rendo has everything. That is what my point was. It wasn't meant as a slight to the rest of the world either.  Sheesh!

I lost track of what exactly we're talking about in this tread
[insert head spinning avatar in here]

I'm still talking about the "Ghetto" comment. :tt2:

Our sewer pipe broke and flooded half the house this morning...  LOL, there are 'hazmat' people in the house cleaning out the crap - literally. Thank god for insurance!

Anyway, what I was trying to say...
I'm having a ghetto moment today.

Yes, it is beginning to veer off in strange directions...

(maybe it's time to look for other threads..?)

That seems to be a trend nowdays; someone makes a post and then eventually the accusations will start to fly....    is this really necessary?

No need for things to get ugly, folks..

adios 

Way to nit pick Sparky!
Take a chill pill - I was only joking.

Quote - Way to nit pick Sparky!
Take a chill pill - I was only joking. 

Sorry I didn't notice the :) but thank's for the kind offer of drugs.

*Sorry I didn't notice the :)

• No probs.

*but thank's for the kind offer of drugs.
*Red or Blue M&M's :)

Would you guys share a few happy pills with me today... I coould really use them!

Pleez? 
Purrrrty pleez?

Kitty does a figure 8 around LISM's and Mr. Sparky's feet.

Quote - *Sorry I didn't notice the :)

• No probs.

*but thank's for the kind offer of drugs.
*Red or Blue M&M's :)

What? No Green or Purple? Ok, I'll take the Blue ones.

Quote - Would you guys share a few happy pills with me today... I coould really use them!

Pleez? 
Purrrrty pleez?

Kitty does a figure 8 around LISM's and Mr. Sparky's feet.

Drops a couple blue M&M's on BadKitty's head.... with sprinkles....

Quote -

Awww... Poor Sick Kitty!

*Here you go Connie - Cat V Vorg :)