Hi all,

I'm working on a set of leather armor for Victoria 4. Unlike most other items (commercial or free), this one will have oodles of options, like different bodice styles, different skirt styles, different shoulder styles. I also plan to do differnt options for studs, clasps, laces, etcetera.

Now I wonder what would be considered the most user friendly way to organize all that modeling work into .cr2s. There's several options:

• one or two HUGE cr2s with geometry switching;
• separate cr2s for lower bodice, upper bodice, cups, shoulder harness, hip armor and skirt.

I'll have to be careful with the file sizes, since I'm planning to make this a commercial item and there's something like file size restrictions on the MP.
I also plan to be able to do expansion packs for the armor, like extra sets of shoulder harnesses, matching capes/cloaks, weapons harnesses, additional bodice types/skirt types/cup types/hip armor types, including some dynamic cloth versions.
Of course, all items will have ALL applicable V4.2 morphs.

What do you think is the most user friendly for the end user?

IMO, the way to go would be with separate CR2s for items that are radically different.  For instance, if you have a piece of chest armor which is styled for realism and another geometry which makes it much more "fantasy" oriented, then you should prob separate the two.  However, if you had a geometry that added more buckles and maybe slightly altered the abdomen section, you could keep them together.

The added benefit for the user is they don't have to load several, huge, CR2s for two characters wearing the same product but using different versions.  So, let's say the customer really wanted to have one style on one character and a radically different style on another, they'd just load what they needed instead of having a lot of memory overhead.  Or, if you have three .obj that yield a combined total of 81 different combinations of gear, the user doesn't have to load 81 in order to just get three of one style. :)

Could any of it be converted over to Poses? ie: Buckles poses which loaded the buckles geometry, etc.

PS - I'm looking forward to your product.  It sounds excellent.  Any object shots you can post yet?

I have no idea mate... never had to do this stuff before.... give us a climpse mate.. will ya?????

Geometry switching is bad for people who don’t want render in Poser. I prefer render in Vue or Cinema. So geometry switching is always problematic for me. :scared:

Mazak

what the hey is a " climpse "??
it sounds like something you could find wrong with someone!!

" yeah i doubt i will be seeing her again, she had one leg that was distinctly shorter than the other, at one point i thought she was leaning on the bar, turns out she was standing up straight, oh yeah and she had a climpse!!"

svdl

could you not have a base product and an accessory pack for the bits, could still be the same price altogether, then further packages could just be expansion packs to the base, just thinking about there seems to be quite a few peeps here that are still on dial up, so you might miss those if your files are too big.

Geees vince... it's 10:30pm and 10 beers later.. you want me to spell "glimpse" properly at this time of night...LOL

HAHAHA!!

10:30pm = poser start time

10 aussie beers? = still completely sober

come on you must have a better excuse than that, you didn't even try then did you?

i think you're gonna have to stay behind to see teacher, lucky for you though as she does have a "thwacker"

the best way is to make it Idiot proof.. so ANY body begginner and Pro can work with it whitout having ?????? above the head....
And separate part are easyer to work with..
Also all kind of morhps/other styles etc etc are never seen by a lot of users.... when they are inside the prop or cloth.. just because they dont see it..

I found out while working on a Fast and Furious add on for the DaZ. Skycar that the seats and spoiler has morps ..NOBODY knew that AFAIK... :woot:

And yes the size has a limit for MP.. 

Chris

PS Congratz on your DAZ release mister !!
 

Oh yes please no geometry switching.   8^)

It's hard to form a full picture of someone else's product from a few words, or to imagine all the possible consequences of doing it one way or another. Off the top of my head I would say if the various parts are inter-compatible (eg same JPs) then they should go in one cr2. If there is to be a helmet this should probably be a separate item (so it can be carried in the hand, or placed on a table). Probably the same should go for gauntlets.

To me putting all you can into one cr2 sounds like less work for the end user as they only need to load one file, then all the options are available through geom switching. To leave an item out an empty obj can be used as one of the geometries. I have never tried using ERC on a 'geomChan', but can't think of any reason why it should not work, so perhaps all the geom swapping could be done from the BODY, or some dedicated ghost actor, via ERC. This could cut down on work by allowing things like switching right and left thighs and shins via one dial, instead of needing to set four dials.

Mazak, makes a good point about geometry switching and people who don’t want render in Poser. Perhaps an optional add on pose pack could be made to inject the various geometries, rather than dialling them in, to accommodate those rendering in other apps. I don't know how other apps handle geometry, so am not sure if this would work. Making such a pose pack should be relatively quick and easy as you will already have most of the obj files to hand for the geom switching.

I know you are trying to keep the file size down, but IMO you should allow for future expansion my putting 3 empty targetGeom channels in every actor, include a few spare materials, and perhaps even some spare actors.

Okay, RGUS, here's your "climpse".

As you can see, still at the preliminary stage! The left half is as good as missing.

This will be the short bodice/full cup variant. I've already prepared the short bodice/low cup version (for those warrioresses that wish to poke out their opponents' eyes but still would like some support in that area), and of course, the cups are separate objects that can be detached. Got a reputation, you know.

The long bodice version will have the same upper parts, but the belt that's circling the lower ribs will be exchanged for a full corset style bodice covering the entire abdomen.

The shoulder harness is one of three styles I'm planning for the initial release. The other ones consists of simle shoulder straps, and fully strapless.

THere's an awesome lot of detail in the model already. For example, those belt holes are actually holes, not just areas occluded by the belt hole fittings. All edges are double sided, and the stitchings are engraved in the mesh.

There's a buckle and strap at the back too, connecting the shoulder pad to the back of the bodice. The bodice laces at the back,

I haven't started on the skirt yet, I want to finish modeling the bodices first. But there will be a skirt consisting of straps (like those Roman armor skirts), one consisting of studded leather scales, short and long versions of both. Ability to turn off front straps/scales, side straps/scales and back straps/scales will be included. Optional hip plates, probably a couple of different styles.

And for completeness the package will be augmented with bracers and greaves or boots (haven't decided between those yet).

Addon packages will consist of new shoulder harnesses, like one with a collar and chains, different cups (full metal, mesh metal, chains), different abdomen styles (mesh metal, chains), new skirts (also mesh and chain), and probably a couple of matching weapons packs, including scabbards, baldrics, swordbelts, weapons harnesses, the whole kaboodle.

looking great svdl!!!

love that line across the cup, very nice design, and straps, i can't get enough straps at the mo', always looking for somewhere to hang some equipment off.

would actually like a left half that is missing, as i like un-symetrical stuff too, i'm getting a bit of an archer feel, if you imagine that left shoulder armour gone, and left upper breast strap gone too and extend the bodice to the left but with the cup missing, you got yourself a pretty hot variation of the outfit.

should appeal to the amazonian warrioresses, as they wouldn't need to cut off their boobies anymore, just protect em' and strap em' down a bit.

Good idea Vince! I'll put that in as one of the expansion packs.

Quote -
PS Congratz on your DAZ release mister !!

 
Thanks Chris! Can't talk about it too much in here, but I'm quite happy with it, it's doing pretty well.

How about this organization:

• CR2 for shoulder harness/straps,
• CR2 for upper bodice
• CR2 for lower bodice
• CR2 for hip armor
• CR2 for skirt

That way the user can mix & match styles. Expansion packs then could consist of extra CR2s for shoulder harness, upper/lower bodice, hip armor, skirt, etcetera. And it would even be possible to create an expansion pack that would be an entire set of armor by itself, with every part exchangeable with the first pack, providing the user with a plethora of options.

Some new previews:

1. Short style bodice with full cups and shoulder harness:
   

Short style low bodice, with shoulder harness, low and revealing cups:

Short style bodice, with shoulder harness, without cups:

Short style bodice without harness:

Short style bodice, strapless, without cups:

Short style low bodice, strapless:

Long style bodice is in the making, so are the shoulder straps.

Hey SVDL, that's looking fantastic :)

When I asked similar questions in the past, about how to package things, more often then not I was told that making a number of separate pieces gives users more options on how to use the otem.... even if it's more of a pain to load up individual pieces.

svdl - That looks seriously cool & sexy!
Why, oh why are you making this, you'll know I'll end up 'needing' it, lol!
To be able to mix & match the body parts I find is a big selling point in an outfit, you're working wonders here, you will keep us updated won't you?
The biggest dilema I could see me having here would be 'should I have her breasts showing or not?'.
It's a toughie.

You could play peek-a-boo with it :lol:

Quote - The biggest dilema I could see me having here would be 'should I have her breasts showing or not?'.

Please tell me this isn't a serious question.

Quote - > Quote - The biggest dilema I could see me having here would be 'should I have her breasts showing or not?'.

Please tell me this isn't a serious question.

It's as serious as it gets!
I mean, in battle her breasts hanging out wouldn't be appropriate. But hey, who's fantasy battle is this anyway! :tongue1:

Connie - You have a filthy mind. :woot:

**Gonna throw in my 2 cents here. One of my most favorite outfits is the Changing Fantasy Wear by Darkworld. Reason it's one of my favorites? Because I can load the outfit on V3 and then change pieces of it by a morph click. If that's what you mean by "geometry switching", I really like that option on those pieces. I will admit, though, it slows the response down when I use it.

svdl.....That armor is looking fantastic so far.
**

Unicornst: that is indeed geometry switching.
Did some research, and I'd better not use it. Reason is that the amount of morph data will go through the roof - for each variant the cr2 needs a full set of morphs, and since it is rather high poly, it would get extremely big (tens of megabytes). Separate parts don't suffer from that kind of morph bloat.
And since I'm going to put ERC in everything, you won't have to dial in each and every morph for each and every item: just change the morph setting on V4.2 and all conformed items will automatically adjust themselves.
A Python script that'll magnetize all conformed items to V4.2 in one click might be useful though. I'll put it in the package.

**That's probably why it slows the program down. lol And I can see your reasoning for not going with that.

Wouldn't the magnetize that comes with V4 work with the outfit?
**

Quote - **Wouldn't the magnetize that comes with V4 work with the outfit?
**

 
Sure it would. But the Python script will magnetize all items at once, so you won't have to select each item in turn and magnetize it using the correct pose.

**Oh, that sounds even better.

Okay, I'll shut up now and let you carry on. grin**

Quote -
Mazak, makes a good point about geometry switching and people who don’t want render in Poser.

Yes, very good point. I have a project in the pipeline that was going to use geometry switching to give infinite combinations of options but I think I'll go with a selection of 'preset' combinations in the form of different cr2 figures instead.

There's another problem with geometry switching when it involves different options for the hip geometry.  After you have switched the hip to an alternative geometry (using the
dial) in Poser, if you apply any pose (even a MAT pose) to any OTHER
figure in the scene, the hip reverts to the original geometry. Weird.

Wow, looks fantastic! I vote for separate cr2s rather than geometry switching.

It looks really great :)  I hope there is an option for those of us that do fantasy artwork, but still would like our warriors clothed and a tad of realism to them :)we don't all do Julie  Bell/Boris Vallejo etc type of fantasy :)

I'm glad that you are making it a mix and match, that is my favorite thing to do with all of the stuff I have, I take a piece from one product then another etc to give my stuff a unique look : )

Looking forward to seeing it all put together. If it has the type of design that will carry it, maybe I'll make some steel textures to go with it, not enough armor for V4 yet :)

Some new previews here, mix & match of what I've put together so far:

Fully armored:

Back view of the full armor:

Short style armor, without cups:

Corset style, with the low cup variant:

Used as a strapless bra:

Shoulder straps with the short bodice, low variety:

The corset looks pretty good without cups at all (IMO):

Only two materials used in these renders: the standard brown leather that comes with Poser 5 and later, plus the steel metal material that comes with P5 and later. Rendered using the Albany AO IBL lighting that comes with P7.

I'm still not sure on how to divide this set into packages. I'm thinking about putting the parts of the full armor in one package, and the parts of the short armor, with the lower bodice, into another package. Then again, I particularly like those shoulder pads, and I'm thinking of doing a variant of those for the short armor package.

I particularly like the shoulder pads as well. Small question on the material zones. Are the studs and all the metal separate from the leather parts?

There are two metallic material zones: studs and buckles.
And two fabric material zones: body and stitching.
I won't include textures in the packages, I'm a total disaster when it comes to 2D. All materials will be procedural.
Of course everything will be UV mapped, and I'll provide texture templates.

Want some help with those textures? grin I'm getting ideas for it already just from the bits you've shown.

Really fantastic look! And to make it so versatile is truly great! ^^

If you need someone to texture this baby up, just give me a shout :)

New previews, and I think I know how to divide the bodice sets.

First, here's an alternate shoulder harness strapped to the low upper bodice version. Plus the front part of the scaled skirt I'm working on - still got to do the backside.

The Amazon style aymmetric top iis just about done too:

As for dividing the packages, I was thinking along the following lines:

Package 1: Full armor

• abdomen-covering lower bodice;
• high upper bodice;
• 2 types of cups, the one with the seam plus one I still have to make;
• shoulder harness , first style (3 or 4 plate shoulder pads)
• shoulder straps;
• long scaled skirt;
• long strap skirt (EasyPose and dynamic versions);
• heavy hip plates;

Package 2: Light armor

• abdomen-uncovering lower bodice;
• low upper bodice;
• 2 types of cups, one of which will be street legal;
• shoulder harness 2nd style (2 plate shoulder pad);
• collared straps;
• short scaled skirt;
• short strap skirt (EasyPose and dynamic versions);
• smaller hip plates.

Package 3: Accessories

• low and high boots
• shinguards;
• bracers;
• sword, scabbard, swordbelt;
• dagger with scabbard;
• helm
• shield

Package 4: Amazon

• asymmetrical top (as shown);
• asymmetrical skirt (EasyPose and dynamic);
• bow, arrows, quiver,
• shortsword + scabbard & swordbelt
• Amazon sandals,
• archery bracers.

Package 4 will be more or less standalone, although it'll be in the same style as the other packages, and will use the same set of materials.
The idea is to be able to build your collection. and at the same time to have a complete workable set with as few packages as possible.

Does this seem like a reasonable distribution?

Sounds good to me. Really liking that skirt. 

Here's another preview of that skirt, this time from the back:

As the say, the devil is in the details. Here's a closeup of the hip clasp of the skirt.

And a closeup of the side strap of the top:

There's a bit of a problem with this skirt - how on earth am I going to rig it in such a way that it'll move naturally? I may have to scratch this design and do something else...

I sure hope you don't have to scrap the skirt. I'm really, really, really liking that design.

looking fantastic there svdl!!

that amazon is exactly what is was thinking of, i see you had to rework the strap to get that to work out all nice and tidy, so i am very impressed!! nice one!!!

that skirt is fantastic too, great design, goes really well with the top. me likes!!!

i can't think what their proper name is but have you tried those box pose handles you get with some skirt figures? (little cubes that will x,y,z trans and rotate the left, right and front of the skirt (hope that made sense)) i think you would need a set of three boxes for the front of the skirt and another three for the back of the skirt.

Truly amazing work!! :thumbupboth:

Some new previews. I changed the abdomen piece, its front was dipping so low that it was interfering with the skirts. There's also another armored scaled skirt in the works.

Here's the new lower bodice, combined with the new scaled skirt and the full upper bodice and shoulder harness you've seen in previous posts:

Of course, it can be worn without upper bodice too. And the scales of the skirt are detachable:

The bodice buckles in the back, and the skirt laces. Should I change those laces to buckles (those do look a little more robust and businesslike).
By the way,I'll add an optional modesty plate for the backside of the skirt (Modesty is always optional with my stuff :biggrin:)

Something completely different: there's two weird grey stripes near the top of the render. I have absolutely no idea where they come from. I used the Albany Night IBL AO lightset from Poser 7, the RDNA Skydome that comes with P7, 2 raytrace bounces, displacement mapping and smooth polygons enabled.
Beats me.

Okay...me wants. :woot:

My suggestion on the skirt? Laces look great. Buckles look as though they have more "holding power". Modesty piece? Just add leather "panties". They'll be great for the front of the skirt (when shortened) as well.

You provide lots of inspiration.  Good work svdl.

More skirt work.

This is the first version of the strap skirt I've been working on for the set:

Rear view of the strap skirt:

Here's another version, using elements of the scaled skirt as a base

Can be worn with a modesty back plate

or without:

A longer version of the new strap skirt:

Like the short version, it can be worn with a modesty back plate

or without.

All these skirts are conforming/dynamic hybrid, which means they will only work in Poser 5 and up. No DAZ|Studio, no Poser 4/PP/Poser Artist support.

I could make every strap an EasyPose chain, consisting of 4 to 7 bones each. That is a HELL of a lot of work, and while the user can pose each individual section of the straps, there won't be anything like a quick pose. It may be possible to create ERC effects on the EasyPose chains, but again, that's an awful lot of work on my part, and it will not get the natural movevent effects of dynamic cloth.

What would be best for the end user? Hybrids (with a PDF to explain how to make them work) or EasyPose+ERC?

By the way, the modesty plate will fit the scaled skirt of my previous post too.

And a parting shot of the first strap skirt in action:

**Well, this user would definitely need an explanation on how to use a Hybrid. LOL But at least I do have Poser5.

This is looking fantastic!
**