Quote - > Quote - Coldrake is not claiming it's an Elite and very unique thing he made, independently of knowing of GND's existance.

Quote - I mean, theese ae professionals (DAZ) we're talking about. Not some no name vendor whom tried to release a knockoff. Little bit like a reaction I may have if BMW copied Mercedes body style and only changed the style of front and rear lights, because they couldn't think of anything better on their own. I can see some no name auto maker doing it, but not BMW, or Mercedes, or Volvo or some other top of the line outfit.

Good points here. Lots of trumpeting about "lookie what we did" like they're the pioneers, when we all know it's been done before. You are correct, they could have improved on so many rigging/detail problems, rather than recreating something that's been done. I am interested in the textures -- not just the high-rez but the attention to even lighting and detail. I have some resource freebies from 3dWorld, and if they're representative I am disappointed. Soft focus, uneven lighting with spectral highlights. I bought the Lana texture and ended up getting a refund. The quality and amount of detail was great, but really how many of us can take advantage of that. For general renders they're memory hogs and don't look any better at mid-range than my other good quality textures. I ended up buying Morris's Bell instead. It doesn't look as good in extreme close-up, but for midrange the cute freckles are something visible and different.

I saw some renders using those, and they look pretty good, when I look at them for three minutes or less. I noticed Rgus made some nice looking renders using them. On my own I haven't even unpacked them yet.

To be honest, I haven't been keeping up on high end details of skin textures for a long time, so they could have sold me a cat in the bag, and I wouldn't be aware of it.

I'm on a modeling, morphing and honing my rigging skills track at the moment. I think after I get more comfortable with that part, I'll play with texturing more :)

Im reading through this, and honestly, its not a question of ethics its a simple thread about how people are disappointed in the Elite morphs.  While I can understand what Blackhearted may be feeling, I am not a rigging expert, ethics never crossed my mind.    If ethics is a serious issue, it is something that should be taken up with the proper people, not hashed about in a thread.  Thats just my opinion as I see lots of accusations being made.

Quote - Makes me wonder what direction the poser market is headed.  A market flooded with copycat items all reduced to sell.    

Who knows!
I've read in one of the forums - forget which one - a small group of people thinking that's the way to go.
I have no idea.

Personally, I try not to undervalue my stuff, in poserdom or RL. Especially since I like to pay as much attention as I possibly can to quality. I don't know if I always make it, but I try.

Quote - > Quote - Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery so they say. The very fact that you were going to imitate Frazetta is a perfect example. So here's my question. Just how ethical would it be for you or anyone else to use Frazetta's name to advertise your product?

Blackhearted and Frazetta are not in direct competition in the same market. The product is different, target market is different.

Blackhearted and DAZ are in the same market, creating the same product, same target market, same community (Poser).

When it comes to business ethics, those are significant differences.
Or to put it oin very layman's terms, you heard the phrase "Don't shit where you sleep", Rright?

Well unless I'm totally missing out on something here, GND is a set of Morphs for a DAZ figure, so who exactly is shitting in who's bed if DAZ makes and releases morphs for THEIR figure that look like someone else's morphs made for THEIR figure?

Quote - > Quote - but i do see a huge difference between being inspired by something thats basically a cultural/media icon and making knockoffs of a fellow poser merchant's original work.

An interesting ethical distinction you've made here (and the choice of language -- you are "inspired" by Frazetta, but a fellow merchant is "making a knock-off") and the moral reasoning that this is so, is the market? 

Kinda what I was thinking.

*Personally, I try not to undervalue my stuff, in poserdom or RL. Especially since I like to pay as much attention as I possibly can to quality. I don't know if I always make it, but I try.

You should never under sell yourself,  your products are of very high quality. 

Quote - I like to debate things... it sort of tests my thinking and ability to explain my point. Unfortunately the flip side of it is that I unintentionally alienate people. I tend to forget that people often take things more personally then I do in theese arguments.

You don't alienate me. I just look at what you write and say to myself, "Well she's a cat! Of course she think's she's right!" :tt2:

fivecat, no bad reflection/slight meant towards your excellent render there, but to me, that doesn't look like hairs on her skin at all.  It looks more like she could use a really good microdermabrasion session.  The skin is way too rough for my taste.  I know my own skin doesn't look that rough except maybe on my knees and elbows.  I've seen this in just about every render done with an Elite texture.  It is one of the reasons why I will not purchase these textures. 

Quote - > Quote - Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery so they say. The very fact that you were going to imitate Frazetta is a perfect example. So here's my question. Just how ethical would it be for you or anyone else to use Frazetta's name to advertise your product? The fact that you considered doing so, even if only for a moment, places you in the same boat as anyone else who imitates someone else's style.

i was shooting for a classic pinup/fantasy/cheesecake look. while the character wouldnt have looked out of place in a Fraz-like environment or the cover of Savage Tales, i was not planning on imitating frazetta and had a concept of something more original and stylized.

ironically Kiera and i actually had an old character made using poser dials that was a Frazetta inspired morph, we even called it 'Frazella' . that was around 7 years ago, i pulled the product half a decade ago and i would not do it again. however if you were to pull every product inspired by fantasy/sci-fi films and books, video games, celebrities, etc from the marketplace and freestuff you would be left with about 5 products. but i do see a huge difference between being inspired by something thats basically a cultural/media icon and making knockoffs of a fellow poser merchant's original work. i have no problem with Daz releasing a frazetta-ish morph, i was pointing out that their having released one would turn me off of doing something in the same niche in the near future. its merchants that troll the 'whats hot' looking for ideas for their next product that i have a problem with.

Quote - This is just one of the many reasons why I prefer making freebies over being a vendor in this market.

im not new to freebies, just havent released any lately. if the records went back that far, my Angelyna freebie alone would have put me in the 3rd slot of the all-time downloads.
unfortunately i dont think making only freebies will make you 'immune' to either infringements or imitation. in fact, if anything, people seem to treat freebies with even less respect than they do retail products - which must be a huge slap in the face to those people who dedicate themselves to making freestuff on a regular basis. remember snowsultan? staale? they were some of the most ripped off freebies of all time - often in retail products.

Ok so I took your words too literally when you said you were planning a Frazetta-ish style morph and changed your mind when DAZ came out with one. Silly of me. The fact that you already DID a Frazetta style morph and called it Frazella is just, well, proving my point that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. If you do something well, people will try to imitate it. People imitate, emulate and whatever other ATE you can think of when it comes to copying success. Why? Because they too wish to be successful.

As for being immune from being copied because I do free stuff? That was never even a thought in my head. Being immune from stressing over being copied is a totally different ball of wax. I'm glad I've inspired others. It actually makes me feel good about myself.

Quote - fivecat, no bad reflection/slight meant towards your excellent render there, but to me, that doesn't look like hairs on her skin at all.  It looks more like she could use a really good microdermabrasion session.  The skin is way too rough for my taste.  I know my own skin doesn't look that rough except maybe on my knees and elbows.  I've seen this in just about every render done with an Elite texture.  It is one of the reasons why I will not purchase these textures. 

The bump is set too high. With these bump maps you need a really light touch, and I didn't find the sweet point. There is hair visible on her lower cheek.

It is an excellent render nonetheless (love the lighting), fivecat.  And I will agree, there does appear to be what could pass for hair there. 

I just don't understand why they felt the need to go so overboard with the bump mapping.  It just is not...well...realistic to me, which is what they are supposed to aiming for with these products, isn't it?  Of course, if this were a man's face, it might be a different story.  ;-P

Well, I wasn't real happy with the default poser shaders -- I'm actually liking many of the studio renders better (probably because they forgot to add the bump/displacement to the studio shader). This is the same pose with different lighting and smoother looking skin. (click for large version)

Quote - A render I did with the Lana texture. I like that you can see the fine hair on the face. I can see how professionals could use this level of detail, but I'm not likely to do many renders like this at large scale.

That's looking very nice.
I actually like doing closeups... well, I find male closeups more interesting, but ahem that's a different thread.
Everything I see about the textures sounds good.

Quote - *Personally, I try not to undervalue my stuff, in poserdom or RL. Especially since I like to pay as much attention as I possibly can to quality. I don't know if I always make it, but I try.

You should never under sell yourself,  your products are of very high quality.  

Thanks Pat :)

I hope they are.
I haven't had any complaints yet... which means, people are either happy - or noone has used them yet! LOL    Probably the latter.

Quote - > Quote - I like to debate things... it sort of tests my thinking and ability to explain my point. Unfortunately the flip side of it is that I unintentionally alienate people. I tend to forget that people often take things more personally then I do in theese arguments.

You don't alienate me. I just look at what you write and say to myself, "Well she's a cat! Of course she think's she's right!" :tt2:

Kitty unsheets her claws and poofs up her tail

Dare you to come closer and prove me wrong :tt2:

Quote - I actually like doing closeups... well, I find male closeups more interesting, but ahem that's a different thread.

Yeah, I saw your 'Manscape II' and had to fan myself. Hee. Whew! Found the thread about your new outfit -- wow! Looks fantastic -- I'll be keeping an eye out for this.

Quote - Yeah, I saw your 'Manscape II' and had to fan myself. Hee. Whew! Found the thread about your new outfit -- wow! Looks fantastic -- I'll be keeping an eye out for this.

Oooh, Thanks for taking a peak :)
I've been torturing myself with that one lately!

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - I like to debate things... it sort of tests my thinking and ability to explain my point. Unfortunately the flip side of it is that I unintentionally alienate people. I tend to forget that people often take things more personally then I do in theese arguments.

You don't alienate me. I just look at what you write and say to myself, "Well she's a cat! Of course she think's she's right!" :tt2:

Kitty unsheets her claws and poofs up her tail

Dare you to come closer and prove me wrong :tt2:

Oh Nose! I respects Da Klawz! 

Quote - what part of:
"a couple of weeks ago we were discussing with a friend of mine that we should make a classic cheesecakey pinup/fantasy style character:  something along the lines of the old Robert E. Howard or Frazetta-ish ladies, but still originally stylized."
"i was shooting for a classic pinup/fantasy/cheesecake look. while the character wouldnt have looked out of place in a Fraz-like environment or the cover of Savage Tales, i was not planning on imitating Frazetta and had a concept of something more original and stylized."

sounds like 'i am going to copy Frazetta'?
some reading comprehension lessons are in order for both of you.

I was typing my post as you posted yours, so did not see it until after the fact.
Don't be so condensending, I can read  & comprehend fine....just a slow typer. :P

Quote -
Well unless I'm totally missing out on something here, GND is a set of Morphs for a DAZ figure, so who exactly is shitting in who's bed if DAZ makes and releases morphs for THEIR figure that look like someone else's morphs made for THEIR figure?

DAZ does not automatically own everything made for or with V4. Just because they made the geometry does not give them special rights about the work of others. Why should they?  I did not see anything in the EULA which states that DAZ has additional rights about stuff designed for V4 - if they did, they probably would be the only content provider for her.

Who said that they did? Not me.

I was just goin with the implied logic the previous poster was using regarding how it was bad form to be shitting where one slept. BH implied that it was poor form to be competative when doing so would affect the owner of the playground, to use the more common metaphor of playgrounds and toys instead of beds and feces. In this case, The play ground would be V4, so how would it be poor form for DAZ to make changes (IE: Morphs) to their own playground, so to speak. She's their property. They don't have to allow 3rd parties to even make morphs if you want to get right down to it. That could be concidered damaging property that we don't own, we only lease.

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - but i do see a huge difference between being inspired by something thats basically a cultural/media icon and making knockoffs of a fellow poser merchant's original work.

An interesting ethical distinction you've made here (and the choice of language -- you are "inspired" by Frazetta, but a fellow merchant is "making a knock-off") and the moral reasoning that this is so, is the market? 

Kinda what I was thinking.

May it be, that different words mean different things? To be inspired, just for example, by Giger's unique art does not mean that one would try to recreate what Giger has done, with small changes. It would mean that you would take certain elements from Giger, to incorporate it in your art, but keeping it original enough that you can call it yours.

I do have many of Blackhearteds models. I do have Frazella, the original Girl Next Door set for V2 as well as Ki, which I still prefer when I need a petite model. I never had the feeling that one of those shapes or textures weren't original enough, or shaped after some prominent, recognizable original. Of course, Frazella was inspired by the Frazetta pictures, but not in the sense that you could point at some modell and say "That's her".

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - > Quote - but i do see a huge difference between being inspired by something thats basically a cultural/media icon and making knockoffs of a fellow poser merchant's original work.

An interesting ethical distinction you've made here (and the choice of language -- you are "inspired" by Frazetta, but a fellow merchant is "making a knock-off") and the moral reasoning that this is so, is the market? 

Kinda what I was thinking.

May it be, that different words mean different things? To be inspired, just for example, by Giger's unique art does not mean that one would try to recreate what Giger has done, with small changes. It would mean that you would take certain elements from Giger, to incorporate it in your art, but keeping it original enough that you can call it yours.

I do have many of Blackhearteds models. I do have Frazella, the original Girl Next Door set for V2 as well as Ki, which I still prefer when I need a petite model. I never had the feeling that one of those shapes or textures weren't original enough, or shaped after some prominent, recognizable original. Of course, Frazella was inspired by the Frazetta pictures, but not in the sense that you could point at some modell and say "That's her".

The point that you missed was this. "Who" get's to make the judgement call when deciding if someone was inspired or knocking off? Nobody! You don't know what the artists internal thought processes were when they were being inspired/knocking off a product. The only person who knows what's going on inside another man's heart is whatever higher power you may or may not believe in. Certainly no man can truely know what's motivating someone else unless the person says "Hey, I'm making a knock off" or "Hey I was inspired." even then it comes down to do you trust what they say?

Quote - Who said that they did? Not me.

I was just goin with the implied logic the previous poster was using regarding how it was bad form to be shitting where one slept. BH implied that it was poor form to be competative when doing so would affect the owner of the playground, to use the more common metaphor of playgrounds and toys instead of beds and feces. In this case, The play ground would be V4, so how would it be poor form for DAZ to make changes (IE: Morphs) to their own playground, so to speak. She's their property. They don't have to allow 3rd parties to even make morphs if you want to get right down to it. That could be concidered damaging property that we don't own, we only lease.

Since DAZ created her, they can allow or disallow creating morphs for her, true. But they said that creating morphs is OK, so products like Alice and GND can be done and be sold.
I still have the feeling that I got something wrong in your argument, since it does not make sense to me - noone said that it isn't ok for DAZ to create morphs. Just that it's not exactly ok to recreate the morphs other people are already selling. Sorry if I got you wrong, english isn't my first language so errors may occur. But your post still implies "V4 is DAZ's, so what the heck" to me.

Quote - > Quote -

I do have many of Blackhearteds models. I do have Frazella, the original Girl Next Door set for V2 as well as Ki, which I still prefer when I need a petite model. I never had the feeling that one of those shapes or textures weren't original enough, or shaped after some prominent, recognizable original. Of course, Frazella was inspired by the Frazetta pictures, but not in the sense that you could point at some modell and say "That's her".

 

The point that you missed was this. "Who" get's to make the judgement call when deciding if someone was inspired or knocking off? Nobody! You don't know what the artists internal thought processes were when they were being inspired/knocking off a product. The only person who knows what's going on inside another man's heart is whatever higher power you may or may not believe in. Certainly no man can truely know what's motivating someone else unless the person says "Hey, I'm making a knock off" or "Hey I was inspired." even then it comes down to do you trust what they say?

So there is no "knock off" if the creator doesn't declare he did that for a purpose? Sorry, but I beg to differ. Please, be aware that noone said that DAZ did something illegal, but obviously some people here saw GND in that Elite morphs. And it was neither me nor Blackhearted who mentioned that in the first place. They could have made the shape more distinctive, but they didn't. So, in my eyes, it's a knock-off. I do not expect you to follow my judgement, though.

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - but i do see a huge difference between being inspired by something thats basically a cultural/media icon and making knockoffs of a fellow poser merchant's original work.

An interesting ethical distinction you've made here (and the choice of language -- you are "inspired" by Frazetta, but a fellow merchant is "making a knock-off") and the moral reasoning that this is so, is the market? 

May it be, that different words mean different things?

I was pointing out the use of emotive language, not quibbling over word definitions. It's not the meaning of the words, but how they're selectively being applied. When you say someone was inspired by another's work, that usually means he has incorporated some part of that style into his own work. A few of you have been adamant about saying 'that person is copying' and 'that person is inspired' without adequately defending the position of the moral line you draw, other than "because I think so" or "because they're not in the same market." If you're going by degree of inspiration, where at some point it becomes copying, well, that's a very subjective line. People here seem fine with heavy inspiration from popular media characters like Lara Croft. Personally I think it is self-serving rationalization to say "it's okay to make a look-a-like Lara Croft character" while at the same time objecting if someone makes a look-a-like of a product here, with the only difference being whether you're in the same market, or that one is a 'cultural icon.' You're capitalizing on someone else's sweat either way. Honestly, how much in fashion, art, and media is original -- it's all heavily inspired/copied by what's come before. They borrow from each other, other cultures, other classes, other decades/centuries.

Quote -
noone said that it isn't ok for DAZ to create morphs. Just that it's not exactly ok to recreate the morphs other people are already selling.

See that's the problem! They have every right to create whatever morphs they want to for a property that THEY own. It's once again, their playground here. It's not BH's mesh and he doesn't hold copyright to that particular human form. Nobody does. When you start trying to say it's unethical for the owner of an item to do with it as they wish, you're already on the loosing side of the ethics argument.

Quote - > Quote - > Quote -

I do have many of Blackhearteds models. I do have Frazella, the original Girl Next Door set for V2 as well as Ki, which I still prefer when I need a petite model. I never had the feeling that one of those shapes or textures weren't original enough, or shaped after some prominent, recognizable original. Of course, Frazella was inspired by the Frazetta pictures, but not in the sense that you could point at some modell and say "That's her".

 

The point that you missed was this. "Who" get's to make the judgement call when deciding if someone was inspired or knocking off? Nobody! You don't know what the artists internal thought processes were when they were being inspired/knocking off a product. The only person who knows what's going on inside another man's heart is whatever higher power you may or may not believe in. Certainly no man can truely know what's motivating someone else unless the person says "Hey, I'm making a knock off" or "Hey I was inspired." even then it comes down to do you trust what they say?

So there is no "knock off" if the creator doesn't declare he did that for a purpose? Sorry, but I beg to differ. Please, be aware that noone said that DAZ did something illegal, but obviously some people here saw GND in that Elite morphs. And it was neither me nor Blackhearted who mentioned that in the first place. They could have made the shape more distinctive, but they didn't. So, in my eyes, it's a knock-off. I do not expect you to follow my judgement, though.

5Cat is describing what I meant so much better than I did. It's the way the two different terms being used for the exact same thing are being used to defend/attack positions regarding look alikes here. When one artist does it, he's "Inspired", when his competetor does it it's a knock-off.

It's this distinction I find suspect, especially coming from someone who has admittedly made look alikes off someone as well known as Frazetta! He even went so far as to partially use Frazetta's name in said product, changing it only enough to avoid the copyright police but naming it in such a way as to profit off the Frazetta name without actually using it.

Well, those "Cara Loft" figures most obviously are copied concepts - they do not claim to be original. There are a lot of products which don't have an own design. We have firearm props here, which are modeled after existing guns - of course, anyone can do another Colt 1911. If someone would do something like "The Gun", I would say there is something copying a concept, that would have a foul taste to me. That's a different thing in my eyes.

Of course your work will be inspired by someone else. Of course you cannot reinvent the wheel over and over again. But then, at least for me, there is a line after which it's no longer "inspired by" but "copied". And I just happen to prefer the original over the copy.

Quote - > Quote -

noone said that it isn't ok for DAZ to create morphs. Just that it's not exactly ok to recreate the morphs other people are already selling.

See that's the problem! They have every right to create whatever morphs they want to for a property that THEY own. It's once again, their playground here. It's not BH's mesh and he doesn't hold copyright to that particular human form. Nobody does. When you start trying to say it's unethical for the owner of an item to do with it as they wish, you're already on the loosing side of the ethics argument.

No, but he holds the copyrights on the morphs he did. It doesen't need to be BH's mesh for him to create original work with it.

And no, DAZ may no longer "do as they wish" with their mesh. I bought a licence which states what I can do with it and what I cannot do. DAZ cannot  change that contract on their own behalf. And there is no "all your morphs are belong to us"-paragraph in it.

Quote -
5Cat is describing what I meant so much better than I did. It's the way the two different terms being used for the exact same thing are being used to defend/attack positions regarding look alikes here. When one artist does it, he's "Inspired", when his competetor does it it's a knock-off.

It's this distinction I find suspect, especially coming from someone who has admittedly made look alikes off someone as well known as Frazetta! He even went so far as to partially use Frazetta's name in said product, changing it only enough to avoid the copyright police but naming it in such a way as to profit off the Frazetta name without actually using it.

I know Frazetta's work, i like it a lot. I do have Frazella. It's not a direct copy of any of Frazetta's girls. And even if it were - it's a different market. I mean, look at Joe Bushidos figure Aikio. She is obviously inspired by GND, but she looks different. So, no problem there.

If you cannot see the difference, fine, I will not argue anymore about that. I don't expect DAZ to pull the morphs, they are legal. It just has damaged DAZs reputation, in my eyes. Not more, not less.

Quote - Well, those "Cara Loft" figures most obviously are copied concepts - they do not claim to be original.

They don't 'claim' to be anything, they just are. So by your logic, if I copied a product concept here but did not claim it was my original design, then it would be okay? Because that is what you are implying. Oh, that's right, that only applies to designs by people not in this market. > Quote - There are a lot of products which don't have an own design. We have firearm props here, which are modeled after existing guns - of course, anyone can do another Colt 1911. If someone would do something like "The Gun", I would say there is something copying a concept, that would have a foul taste to me. That's a different thing in my eyes.

Do you those who designed the gun think the same as you? Why is it morally okay in your eyes to copy the actual gun (the designs of which someone owns) but not the design of someone here in the marketplace? Aren't you advocating double standards? > Quote - Of course your work will be inspired by someone else. Of course you cannot reinvent the wheel over and over again. But then, at least for me, there is a line after which it's no longer "inspired by" but "copied".

And we're back to the original question: where's the line and who decides? And it seems to be: you can copy anybody else but stay away from the 3d market! Anyway, I'm done with it. I'd rather trade hisses with conniekat than participate in this pointless exercise.

Quote - > Quote - > Quote -

noone said that it isn't ok for DAZ to create morphs. Just that it's not exactly ok to recreate the morphs other people are already selling.

See that's the problem! They have every right to create whatever morphs they want to for a property that THEY own. It's once again, their playground here. It's not BH's mesh and he doesn't hold copyright to that particular human form. Nobody does. When you start trying to say it's unethical for the owner of an item to do with it as they wish, you're already on the loosing side of the ethics argument.

No, but he holds the copyrights on the morphs he did. It doesen't need to be BH's mesh for him to create original work with it.

And no, DAZ may no longer "do as they wish" with their mesh. I bought a licence which states what I can do with it and what I cannot do. DAZ cannot  change that contract on their own behalf. And there is no "all your morphs are belong to us"-paragraph in it.

You've obviously never heard of a license being "Revoked". There is a paragraph on "Derivative" works which covers morphs if they decide to invoke it.

Quote -
You've obviously never heard of a license being "Revoked". There is a paragraph on "Derivative" works which covers morphs if they decide to invoke it.

The only case in which DAZ wants the licence to be revoked is if you want a refund and they agree to it. I assume, they can revoke the licence if you do one of the things you agreed not to do. But they did not include a right to revoke the licence at any time. So I do assume they cannot do that.

It seems to me, as if they don't mean morph sets with the "derivative work" paragraph, as long as you don't publish part of the original model with it. Otherwhise they should have sued Aery Soul and Blackhearted long ago.

I am not a lawyer, I may got that wrong. But since DAZ did not revoke Blackhearteds V4 licence and did not say that selling them was a breach of contract I do not think that any of this stuff has something to do with this case.

Well that's because this ISN'T a case of copyright infringement at all. It's a case of personal perceptions of the similarities between two different morph sets that, while similar, are not the same. People are crying ethical foul, not legal foul. The problem is, ethics are even more esoterical and based on personal perception than laws are. DAZ hasn't done anything wrong and neither has BH with his morphs. The only problem I see here is he's tarnishing his own reputation with his claims of unethical behavior where there was none.

Quote - Who said that they did? Not me.

I was just goin with the implied logic the previous poster was using regarding how it was bad form to be shitting where one slept. BH implied that it was poor form to be competative when doing so would affect the owner of the playground, to use the more common metaphor of playgrounds and toys instead of beds and feces. In this case, The play ground would be V4, so how would it be poor form for DAZ to make changes (IE: Morphs) to their own playground, so to speak. She's their property. They don't have to allow 3rd parties to even make morphs if you want to get right down to it. That could be concidered damaging property that we don't own, we only lease.

Well, no, they don't have to allow third party add-ons to their product, but they decided to allow it. Probably because they discovered it increases the value of their base product. Everyone whom is attracted to the add-on (GND), still needs to own the base (V4). This means for each GND, one V4 is sold. GND and V4 are complementary products.  GND and Utopia morphs, on the other hand are competetive products.

It doesn't work the other way around. Ownership of GND is not required to make Utopia morph work.

Anyone can make add on morphs to GND the same way one can add morphs to V4. I don't recall seeing anyting in GND's eula preventing that. I noticed there is at least one set of morphs in the marketplace made to complement GND morph specifically. Posermatic's NGM's. I'll be making an add on morph for her too, to make her boobs make squishuppage in my Stormchaser outfit.

So, this is not a good comparison because underlying dynamic of what adds or diminishes value of a product is not the same - if you reverse the situation.

Quote - So, this is not a good comparison because underlying dynamic of what adds or diminishes value of a product is not the same - if you reverse the situation.

We're not talking about product values here though. The comparison was made in regards to the ethics of morph making and it's spot on for that.

Crikey, all this was one hell of a read!

Personally, I think the whole issue regarding the worthyness of V4 Elite has gotten a little out of hand. Daz will just keep finding new ways to make money but as always we have a choice whether to buy or not.

I have the Elite morphs but I've yet to test them out. I must admit to being tempted to make a comparison with the Utopian morph & the GND4. From what I've seen here there does seem to be some likeness but was this intentional, who knows. But there are enough differences in my opinion for Daz to not have to worry about it.

I understand Gabriel's concern regarding his GND4 morph. Blackhearted's products are some of the best in the MP, Daz would have known this. I don't know if they were aware of the likeness during their work on the morphs but it doesn't really matter, nothing can be done about it. I'm afraid no one can have copyright over the shape of a woman's figure, unless I missed something.

Yeah, if I had a character in the store which I thought had been copied in sone respects I'd be pretty annoyed, but looking at the bigger picture, even if Daz had known about the GND4 likeness, legally they have done nothing wrong. Morally, it may be a different issue but I don't feel it will make the slightest difference, such is life.

Look at the content in the store, from characters to clothing, so much is the same. Yes, people are inspired to create something from something they have seen. I understand when the two parties involved are in the same market this may cause problems.

Let it go Gabriel. Just kick Daz's arse with your next big thing.

Oh, by the way Connie. I've seen Charlize Theron wearing an outfit similar to the Stormchaser one. She'll say she had it first but we know she stole it while you were moving things around at your house!

Quote - > Quote - So, this is not a good comparison because underlying dynamic of what adds or diminishes value of a product is not the same - if you reverse the situation.

We're not talking about product values here though. The comparison was made in regards to the ethics of morph making and it's spot on for that.

Comparing value for value, or in other words comparing apples and apples is one of the crucial elements of determining whether something is ethical or not.

It can't be even remotely unethical, when DAZ invites and encourages making morphs for their product.  Think of unethical as taking advantage of someone when they're not looking. This is not happening to DAZ. Making morphs for DAZ figures is well within their ntended use - within DAZ or by third parties.

An example of unethical would be taking an existing V4 morph, perhaps Fantasia from the Elite Pack, and making a very slightly altered copy of it. One that is altered just enough so no deltas coincide, but not enough to have some distinct differences... and then on top of that claiming it's original work.

Think of Unethical as a refined word for lying, cheating and/or taking unfair advantage of someone. Making morphs for V4 doesn't qualify as any of it.

Making a morph, and then coming to CG society or Zbrush central and claiming it's your own very original character, and not mentioning or even denying it started as V4 - that's an example of unethical.

There's been some discussion about maing a morph in a likeness of Lara Croft or other celebrities etc.  Whether something is ethical or not is not always black an white. Using a stylized likeness of a celebrity, and not using their name - there may be a small dose of unethical in there. But, let's look if it's passing the test of lying cheating etc.

If you say it was inspired by "Lara Croft" and you're not claiming it is Lara Croft or endorsed by aforesaid, then you're not lying.

If official Lara Croft merchandise is not sold in the same marketplace, you are not taking advantage of them while capitalizing on their popularity (taking away their potential income). What would be much more unethical would be taking a pic of a baseball player, and making your own baseball card. (That one might have copyright issues in addition to unethical)

Is one benefiting from using a likeness of a celebrity by making a Lara Croft look-alike morph and selling it. Sure, but in a relatively small degree. Much more is going to depend on the quality of the product then the fact it might be a celebrity look-alike, at least usually it does. The level of unethical in something like that, on a scale of 1-10 is perhaps around a 3.

[kitty staring at the screen] .... (Ugh, my honey interrupted me, and I forgot how I was going to conclude this - maybe it'll come to me later...)

Quote - [kitty staring at the screen] .... (Ugh, my honey interrupted me, and I forgot how I was going to conclude this - maybe it'll come to me later...)

Actually I think Kitty's been at the catnip again because it sounded like she was arguing my point for me. :tt2: That being, it can't be unethical for DAZ to create morphs for their own figure. Especially if they're doing it using the methods that have been reported here by scanning an individual who may or may not look like someone else's pre-existing morphs.

Quote - Oh, by the way Connie. I've seen Charlize Theron wearing an outfit similar to the Stormchaser one. She'll say she had it first but we know she stole it while you were moving things around at your house!

That's Right :tt2:
And I designed the whole thing from scratch too, cuz I'm the super duper elite fashion designer ! 
I scanned my brainwaves, and out came the outfit - uncanny, isn't it? 

Quote - I'd rather trade hisses with conniekat than participate in this pointless exercise.

:blink: Hmm... I can't decide if that's good or bad.... hmmm....  [scratching head]  :blink:

Quote - > Quote - I'd rather trade hisses with conniekat than participate in this pointless exercise.

 

:blink: Hmm... I can't decide if that's good or bad.... hmmm....  [scratching head]  :blink:

Arguing with you is more fun. :tt2:

Quote - > Quote - [kitty staring at the screen] .... (Ugh, my honey interrupted me, and I forgot how I was going to conclude this - maybe it'll come to me later...)

Actually I think Kitty's been at the catnip again because it sounded like she was arguing my point for me. :tt2: That being, it can't be unethical for DAZ to create morphs for their own figure. Especially if they're doing it using the methods that have been reported here by scanning an individual who may or may not look like someone else's pre-existing morphs.

LOL, is that like a tail chasing argument? ;)

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - I'd rather trade hisses with conniekat than participate in this pointless exercise.

 

:blink: Hmm... I can't decide if that's good or bad.... hmmm....  [scratching head]  :blink:

Arguing with you is more fun. :tt2: 

Awwwwwwwwwwwww

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - [kitty staring at the screen] .... (Ugh, my honey interrupted me, and I forgot how I was going to conclude this - maybe it'll come to me later...)

Actually I think Kitty's been at the catnip again because it sounded like she was arguing my point for me. :tt2: That being, it can't be unethical for DAZ to create morphs for their own figure. Especially if they're doing it using the methods that have been reported here by scanning an individual who may or may not look like someone else's pre-existing morphs.

LOL, is that like a tail chasing argument? ;)

ROFL!  I believe so! Well, it was entertaining and I'll think fondly of it as I go under the knife in the morning. Say good bye to my kidney stones, they're being evicted in the morning.

I hope everything goes well!

Well I won't be back to Post til Saturday. Insurance will only pay if I spend the night tomorrow night. Go figure. I'll leave ya'll with the new short 3D video clips on my YouTube page. Don't piss Mom Robinson off! She'll turn the space ship around!

The Elite and GND4 thing. Did DAZ copy GND4? I'd say DAZ wouldn't still be in business if they weren't getting some inspiration from what the customers are buying including Blackhearteds GND4. Is it a copy? Obviously it is not an exact copy, but it does look like her sister, however Elite seems to have hogged the boob genes and left GND4 with something more realistic. The fact that we are even having this discussion is a great complement to the vision and artistry of Blackhearted whose GND4 inspired this discussion. However, who is the mother of these two sisters? Obviously V4.......... and who created her?

I have no problem with DAZ trying to keep staff employed fulltime with health insurance etc. They are constantly needing to make new things to support their artists who do this for a living, not just a hobby. Not only is DAZ feeding its own employees but all the artists who are making V4 morphs, textures and clothes for V3, V4, M3 etc. owe a big thanks to DAZ for making it possible for them to earn some extra money with products that are based on DAZ creations. As for me, I love GND4 and especially the rendering tutorial that comes with it. I just bought the Elite morphs today and I think I'll sign off now and do a scene with GND4 and Utopia giving each other a big sisterly hug.

By the way, the Elite Eutopia morph is not taking any money away from Blackhearted, if anything he should have some increased sales due to the attention being paid to this issue.
 

*Not only is DAZ feeding its own employees but all the artists who are making V4 morphs, textures and clothes for V3, V4, M3 etc.

Is the food catered or do they have a cafeteria?

Daz is starving the Carrara people. I got out before the famine got too bad. Tragedy over there.

::::: Opera :::::