When I look at many of the better pics in Poser Gallery, it is clear than a large proportion of them have been composited. In other words, they are a mixture of Poser render with photographic material added.

Others have been heavily postworked.

It made me wonder just how useful the 'gallery section' menu is useful at all, or whether it should eb abolished and artists just have to select a genre.It must be very frustrating for new artists who are trying to achieve the results seen in the Poser galleries, thinking it is all Poser, when the truth is far different.

but were does it say its all poser and nothing else?....
If you use poser in your work you can put it in poser gallerie....
There is no Rule about how much it must be....
And so it should stay... actualy we had this discusion here 1000's times before..
So its that dead horse stikking his head up again...

Its not a rule it must be all poser and it does nto say it is...
So everybody can read and understand its not all poser...

I find the gallery genre pulldowns very limiting in order to classify the image 'right'.
Complained about it a number of times and made a number of improvement suggestions, but nothing ever came out of it.

BAR-CODE

Why raise it again? For the very reason Conniekat8 mentions - the classifications are far very limiting.

Also because many pics are accompanied by a 'no postwork' claim which is untrue and thus confusing to those not in the know.

I'd love to see a checklist for technique and genre, or something to that effect.

It would still be voluntary, and therefore be open to neglect and abuse, so the gains may not be as large as we'd like to see.
It may be a good tool for those whom want to offer good info. I know right now we can give a narative about theese things too. In my case, usually when I'm posting an image, I forget half the stuff.

However, I've given up hope that there will be any changes, or that there's even any interest in changes on part of rendo people whom have a say-so.  shrugs  so it goes.

This thread again?

cue pink pony...;)
I just put stuff in the Poser gallery that's actually rendered in Poser. There may be 3-4 programs used before I get there, though...;)

September already? That was a fast year.

What I use for backgrounds is most of the time Daz-cyclorama, which uses real photo's to fill the scene, I rarely use any postworking to improve my renders. Only the last two renders i've made I used a photofilter to improve the lighting, but honestly speaking I'm not so glad with the results, the other reason why I use postworking is to remove renderartifacts that sometimes occur, and poketroughs in clothing. but besides that I'm not such a skilled postworker, although I'm learning day by day.
I think that if you do enough preworking, like setting up your scene right, getting or making the right shaders and setting up a good lightingsystem, applying the right rendersetting, you don't need postworking.
And doing dozens and dozens prerenders of course before you get it right...

Bopper.

I'll just express it with this picture

Now that's what I'm talking about.

 What is that green thing under / behind the panda's but?

Quote - I'll just express it with this picture

LMFAO.

oooh, this may have to become out official 'beat the dead horse' "cat picture" giggle

 I think you are trolling the thread by ridiculing it - may be you dont like it - but the questions posed at the beginning have their right to be posed - btw the pink pony had nothing to do with postwork. Learn to use firefly and you dont need photoshop. The picture above has been posted to often - have a look at the shadows- they tell you the story.

If you want no Photoshop, no postwork and only Poser then look at my gallery....

Well, I suppose that the Poser gallery header saying 'for images created with Poser' could be construed by people to mean Poser only. Especially as the Mixed Medium gallery header states that it is for pictures 'created with more than one program or tool'.

Quote -  I think you are trolling the thread by ridiculing it - may be you dont like it - but the questions posed at the beginning have their right to be posed - btw the pink pony had nothing to do with postwork. Learn to use firefly and you dont need photoshop. The picture above has been posted to often - have a look at the shadows- they tell you the story.

That's nice.

I vote we mix everyting under the subject categories. (I'm sure that counts about as much as a 'vote for change' in the USA.)

I use the gallery corresponding to the app I render in (Vue normally)

You just cancelled out my vote. Darn it.  

Oops :biggrin:

 By now - whats the green thing ? I really could not   figure it out. To much postwork ?

 A last one - look at my gallery - no post at all - try to replicate it and we will talk again

Quote -  A last one - look at my gallery - no post at all - try to replicate it and we will talk again

Good job head pat
Now, as a next step in your artistic growth, you can embark on learning when postwork is appropriate and when it isn't. Then you can stop being a postwork hater... and find something or someone else to harp on.

Hi all,
First let me apologize if I have in anyway ruffled your feathers or disrespected you.
I did not mean to do that. I was just trying to be humorous.
I am all for artists who can produce Poser artwork without any postwork.
Mungo, I've seen your work back in 2002 and you were one of my poser 'heroes',
I am not an artist, and I will never be. I do this as a hobby. I use poser as a tool. I also use programs like, Vue, Photoshop, Zbrush.
I will not try to replicate your work, because it is your work. Artists should have a style of their own. My 'style', assuming I have one is 'cheesy' n 'funny'
Whether you use 'prework' or 'postwork', Poser is still a tool.  If you want to get into the argument of Pure Poser art, one should not use poser content in his/her poser artwork. The contents are made with modelers and the textures are made with a graphic editors.
Now if you want a pure poser gallery you'll see images rendered in poser using primitives and native poser shaders.
Now if you still want a not so pure poser gallery, let me know what rules you want?  1. rendered in poser. 2. contents may be produced by third party software. 3. postwork not allowed.  If you get your way, we may have to change the vue gallery next.......I can see the pure vuers with pitch forks and ......

I thank you all for the critiques on that Pink bunny pic.  A picture is worth a thousand word.  I only needed two: 'Dead' and 'Horse'. I got my message across.  The 'green blob' doesn't matter. I've blurred out the back ground so the focus is on the dead horse.

Mr. Digitaldreamer and Mr. Mungopark, maybe you can bring this up to the Renderosity Administration and change the posting guidelines in the Poser Galleries.  I am sure they will have a nice time enforcing it.

Peace. Keep up the good work.

Quote -  A last one - look at my gallery - no post at all - try to replicate it and we will talk again

No offence, ok maybe some, but your attitude stinks!!! (or that just reads wrong)

I confess I use to be like you and have zero post work, but here and there I find a need to do minor touch ups in PSP9.  Now where we see eye-to-eye is that I aim to complete the entire scene in D|S with no postwork if possible (not including signiture) but sometimes due to the limits of the poser models not bending or moving like real people I gotta make use of a clone brush or something to fix them weird creases.

Now if you wish to see someone elses attempt at no post work (most of the time) I humbly invite you to visit my DeviantART gallery:  http://mattymanx.deviantart.com

Well said JV.

So, in other words, we need a gallery for the gods of poser who find postwork distasteful so that they dont have to have their stuff in the same gallery as some folks who do postwork?   This place is ridiculous.
  Art is in the eye of the beholder, just like beauty, I could give a rats ass what soembody thinks about my stuff because I postwork.  Perhaps I look at their stuff and see nothing special either. So what? No reason to ridicule one another because you have different beliefs.

and if you look at the picture... instead of knocking it because it is postworked, you would see it is a person legs.

Quote -   Learn to use firefly and you dont need photoshop.

Quote -
I think that if you do enough preworking, like setting up your scene right, getting or making the right shaders and setting up a good lightingsystem, applying the right rendersetting, you don't need postworking.

Bopper.

i personally disagree.  photos don't appear raw in magazines, even after professionals do incredible things in the studio.  commercial photography generally involves a lot of Photoshop (hence the name).  and not just changing levels or curves.  a colleague once mentioned to me that he was some how involved with advertisements in Popular Mechanics, and they apparently heavily postwork highlights and other phenomena on tools. 

i generally do tons of test renders, and try to get my lights, materials, pose, etc. as good as i can.  then i use photoshop to improve them. because i can.  and since i can, why would i settle for less and stop at the render? 

imho, usually significant postwork is easy to spot.  even when i was starting out, i didn't find it that difficult in general. photo composites tend to show their lie in the eyes, hands, feet and sometimes joints.  frankly, as long as people who render with C4D, Vray, Maxwell, Mentalray and other high end renderers are posting under Poser, i think the postwork issue is moot.  there's lots of images in the Poser gallery with no postwork at all that still can't be done in Poser. and if the artist doesn't say anything in the description,  you just have to be able to spot the rendering engine.  thing is, i don't think Vicky  pics are welcome in those galleries, so i don't blame the artists for not wanting to garner lots of comments that basically put them down for not creating their own model or (sometimes) texture.

JVRenderer wrote: "Now if you want a pure poser gallery you'll see images rendered in poser using primitives and native poser shaders."

I agree with most of your last post but this one line. You can do more with those primitives if you really want to. Geep has proven that with his modeling tutorials for poser. From robot dogs and office chairs to full houses and much more. A couple of us showed that you can even create clothes using cylinders, squares with magnets and import/export welding( otherwise known as geeps glue) and the cloth room. You can even create figures with faces using the primitives and magnets and add that very usefull morph brush if you have P7 for extra power. Poser figures are optional.

Add all that to what some of the shader gurus have shown us, pure poser has a lot of possbilities. Mind we are talking the complete opposite end of the Make Art Button.

So maybe there should be a catagory in the poser gallery that is Pure Poser. But that means as you said, no V4's or any third party stuff.

Me I'll use postwork and if you want to know why, just go look at my first ever image posted and read the great comment. I learned from that and keep it as a reminder that post is a natural part of art.

Quote - So, in other words, we need a gallery for the gods of poser who find postwork distasteful so that they dont have to have their stuff in the same gallery as some folks who do postwork?   This place is ridiculous.
  Art is in the eye of the beholder, just like beauty, I could give a rats ass what soembody thinks about my stuff because I postwork.  Perhaps I look at their stuff and see nothing special either. So what? No reason to ridicule one another because you have different beliefs.

and if you look at the picture... instead of knocking it because it is postworked, you would see it is a person legs.

I don't think anyone said you couldn't do postwork.  Just that it is a bit dishonest to
put a picture in the Poser gallery that has been postworked when there is a
mixed medium gallery which is intended for postworked renders.
So no, we don't need a new gallery for the gods of poser, that gallery already
exists.  The mixed medium gallery.

The thread started as a plea for a little honesty - whilst I dont believe the gallery sections are as good as they might be, it iritates me when people openly write 'No postwork' and 'all done in poser' when the pics are clearly a composite of Poser and photographic material.

Good luck with that.  Personally I like it when I see a composite of a photograph and a couple of CG elements, and the result is posted in the "Realism" gallery.

Not strictly related to the galleries, but what makes me groan with despair for humanity is when I see a picture where the hair is obviously composited in from a photograph, and then a comment along the lines of "The hair looks so realistic!" smacks head against wall

Like cobaltdream said, oftentime images rendered in other programs, but created with Poser characters, get slammed by those "purists" who use said program (3ds, C4d, etc). And if a Poser character is simply rendered in another program, would it belong in that category just BECAUSE it had been rendered in it?

The problem with mixed medium is that there ARE no definitions really for what mixed medium IS. Does a simply auto-color/contrast/levels in Photoshop count? Does 40 pixels worth of postwork to correct some dodgy joints? If 85% of the work is Poser, should it be Poser or Mixed Medium? 

Let the artist decide.

Hmmmmm how about an image rendered in Poser with a background image? Isn't that still a composit?

*Not strictly related to the galleries, but what makes me groan with despair for humanity is when I see a picture where the hair is obviously composited in from a photograph, and then a comment along the lines of "The hair looks so realistic!" smacks head against wall

*Especially when you know that those hair can be bought as photoshop or paintshop tubes  in the marketplace, complete with fitting poses and camerapositions, how instant can you make it.

I agree with Cobaltdream that professional photographers use a lot of post work, but to a certain level: you can go very far in glamour and fashion foto's but there's a line when it comes to pressfoto's. Some time ago there was a riot when a war photographe got a price for a prepaired foto. I think he even pasted in some dead bodies. He had to return his price of course.
I don't mind if someone use postworking and I even use it for removing the stains as I said, but I think it's a challenge to built up a scene with all the details and props, lightings and so on, render it and Taadaa!
It gives me more satisfaction to make a glowing lightbulb in a poserrender than to add it afterwards in Paintshop.

When I was a student I did some holidaywork in a photostudio where they made pictures for an interiormagazine. This was before photoshop was even invented, I learned there a lot of buiding scenes and all the tricks they used to make it realistic. All the postwork you had to do in those days, had to be done by hand and was very timeconsuming because you had to do it right the first time (no undo!) or you had to start over again.

There is more admiration for someone who creates a great effect in poser after several sleepless nights, then if he added it in fifteen minutes afterwards in photoshop.

Bopper.

Quote -
There is more admiration for someone who creates a great effect in poser after several sleepless nights, then if he added it in fifteen minutes afterwards in photoshop.

Bopper.

I agreed until you added this. I don't think you speak for all the artists here. Art is the creation of (in this case) an image that portrays the artists intent, and how it came to be is secondary.
 
This thought just smacks of elitism. Interesting that some of the people commenting on this are also upset by those who think Poser isn't real 3D.

I'm sorry if I came over like that, I'm far from elitairian, but I think that most peope who come to this forum are interested how things are done in poser and when I see a great render I'm always a bit disappointed is something is done by postwork.
Let me give you an example: Some time ago a GND4 was presented in the forums, one thing that attracted me was a render with wet hair and I made a remark in the forum about it because I liked that, it was for me a disappointment to hear that it was made with postwork.
The point is when you realise something in poser,in carrara, in 3dstudio, in maya or whatever you can repeat that and you don't have to fix it with postwork ever again.
That's progress, if everybody was content with solving problems with postwork, than the poser-forum wouldn't be neccessary at all.

Bopper.

Quote - I don't think anyone said you couldn't do postwork.  Just that it is a bit dishonest to
put a picture in the Poser gallery that has been postworked when there is a
mixed medium gallery which is intended for postworked renders.
So no, we don't need a new gallery for the gods of poser, that gallery already
exists.  The mixed medium gallery.

If that was the criteria, then good 80-90% of images would have to go to mixed medium category. I think that would suck big time.
To me 'poser' gallery doesn't mean it has to be 100% poser. It would mean more like 'mostly poser'. I always assume that there are other components to images unless someone specifies 'no postwork whatsoever'

Much like any other technique, postwork is another tool, learn to use it to your advantage, and learn when and how to use it.... rather then knocking it down.

I've seen many poser images that would look a lot more visually pleasing with a little bit of postwork.

I agree Conniekat8. Most artists have a story to tell with thier images. Not nessisarily in a narrative way but want to convey a visual message. When joints, clothes and other items don't want to move correctly to accomplish thier goal they resort to post work. Now they could rearrange the image, lighting etc. to improve the image but lose the message or story they wanted to tell.

Thier are artist here that fall into several cxamps if you will and all have there place and can be appreciated. I, when I have time like to look at all of the aspects of the image and narrative if any to find the beauty the post has to offer.

It's not a sin to post even poor images if thats your skill level. The beauty of the community I think is the ability for people to express themselves artistically wether they have great technical skills or not. There is also room for Bopper and others that produce some visually stunning and near 100% Poser images.

edit: And don't fear for the forums because many want to improve wether it's how do I make a reflection to modeling and rigging your own character.

Quote -
I agree with Cobaltdream that professional photographers use a lot of post work, but to a certain level: you can go very far in glamour and fashion foto's but there's a line when it comes to pressfoto's.

that's because the press photos are information.  if you falsify the information in them, you're misleading people about the facts.   renders are not even equivalent to glamour and fashion, they're all the way over in art.  and photos done as art involve tons of processing.  conversely information graphics are held to the same standards of accuracy, and they're generally made with 2d tools like Illustrator and Flash.

Quote -
When I was a student I did some holidaywork in a photostudio where they made pictures for an interiormagazine. This was before photoshop was even invented, I learned there a lot of buiding scenes and all the tricks they used to make it realistic. All the postwork you had to do in those days, had to be done by hand and was very timeconsuming because you had to do it right the first time (no undo!) or you had to start over again.

There is more admiration for someone who creates a great effect in poser after several sleepless nights, then if he added it in fifteen minutes afterwards in photoshop.

Bopper.

i guess i understand the appreciation for craftsmanship, but, to me, this just sounds elitist (even if you didn't mean to be).  it's sort of like saying you can't appreciate woodworking done with power tools.   i mean, don't get me wrong, i'm all for work.  if  it looks to me like you spent 2 seconds on something (including thinking about it),  then i'm not interested.  i have an irrational hatred of lens flare, but i hate it just as much when it's a stock 3d effect as when it's a stock 2d effect.  they both look like someone didn't take the time to craft an effect.  and i hate those fake reflective water fills for the same reason. 

i definitely think you shouldn't claim no postwork and then post a photo composite.  but i don't think it's much better to proclaim no postwork, and then do a projected texture render with burned in effects and aspects that look like geometry but are actually just someone's photo.  i've seen that with relative frequency in portraits. 

so i admit a personal bias for enjoying the effects of someone's hard work, and an empathy for those who dislike the quick and easy answer.

but what really gets me in these discussions.....   to me, saying that  taking the time afterward to postwork is somehow easier than just rendering and then calling it quits is not only oddly biased towards 3d, it's acting as if the route with less work is superior.  i have about 12 or more renders that have been through extensive  (as in 30+)  test renders, and still need to be postworked.  there's not one i didn't spend weeks getting 2 to 5 hours sleep a night over while tweaking settings.  as is, i'm in the middle of taking ages on postworking 3 of them.  i'm trying hard, but  i'm still not going to be anywhere near as satisfied with my 2d work as my 3d.  at least four i've never posted because i've tried to postwork them several times, and i find i still need to advance my skills for them to be worth finishing.  i work damn slow, and i'm not the best in the world, but i kind of resent the attitude that my gallery is somehow inferior because i spend time researching and practicing various postwork techniques on top of  working harder than most to perfect the quality of my renders.  and that those who don't bother to even try to, say, correct joint problems, eye problems, hair problems, Poser figures' myriad anatomical problems, levels and balance problems, etc. are somehow superior because they didn't soil their renders with an image editor.

in my experience, fairly real or high quality renders are a hell of a lot easier than just decent painting.  and while i'm very impressed at the galleries of most in this thread and don't think i can (arguably) do any better, most of those who claim no postwork have works with issues i would have addressed in Photoshop.  i don't say that i could make them look better to their creators, but i could definitely make them look better to me.   i'm sure i have raw renders that others could improve on as well, and again, i'm not saying my gallery is in any way better.  but i's not lack of effort in Poser has me working in Photoshop, and i've never seen a render that looked actually raw that i didn't think could benefit from skilled postwork.  i exclude from that the ones that people said were raw and i could tell were photocomposites, as has been been mentioned by others.

but in the end, if it's really about effort and not about the effect, well, i don't see how this community can go on about how using someone else's models, someone else's shaders, someone else's textures, someone else's lights and someone else's poses is just as much art as anything else in CG.  if it's all about hand crafting and effort, why are we using conforming clothes and posing figures?  we should be modeling figures in their intended poses, and always from scratch.  or, really, just oil painting from live models and real props we create by hand  instead of cheating and using a computer.  i empathize with preference for hard work in art, but in the end, i  don't think it's a very defensible position.   because you're always using someone else's work, and where you draw the line is always personal and pretty much arbitrary.  is it making your own paints?  is it making is it making your own computer?  designing your own chips and motherboard?  the first computer i ever used was made by my father, who designed motherboards at the time.  i don't think it's cheating for me to use my MSI motherboard, or that it would be better if i wrote my own OS and 3d studio.
as for disappointment, well, that's personal.  what you're saying is kind of like, "that work isn't as good because the artist didn't solve the problem as i would like to, in a way i can use, and use over and over again."  that sounds like much less work than, say, learning to paint photoreal wet hair so that you can add it at will.  and it sounds as if you're judging work on how it relates to what you want to do, instead of the actual quality of the piece or the work that went into it.

Oh come on colbaltdream, don't hold back. Tell us what you really think..... LOL

I agree with you btw.

i'm sorry. i know i shouldn't go on.  but it's threads like these that have me posting raw renders just to appease purists.  and as someone who neither makes any money nor gains popularity for the many, many hours of work i do, this attitude begins to stick in my craw as i begin once more to postwork some hair because i didn't feel the other attempts were good enough.  and this is after the custom hair shader, hair texture, and transmap.  i don't expect any monetary or personal gains, because i do it for myself.  but it's a bit much to have extra work labeled as laziness.

Quote -  A last one - look at my gallery - no post at all - try to replicate it and we will talk again

These postworking threads are often in need of some serious postwork.  Get it...."post" work......?

:lol::lol::lol:  I kill myself sometimes.

No appology needed. I was trying to make a joke (poorly I guess).

We all attempt to improve our skills, but, life gets in the way too. There just aren't enough hours in a day sometimes. Whats important is that we learn what is necessary to express ourselves.

If you would look at my gallery for example. I don't have a style, direction or much skill, but I have fun doing it and thats what counts for me :)

Don

Very punny ZENOPHONZ.... LOL

* but it's a bit much to have extra work labeled as laziness

*I think I'm just too lazy to do the extra postwork to make my work better.

I took a look at you gallery and I agree : it's the postwork that makes your work better, not that there's something wrong about your renders but it's just the little extras that makes it good.

 Maybe I'm biased and I was too generally speaking, But about the hair... I saw it and thought: WOW, I wanna have that for my renders, and then I heard: no you have to do that yourself, Damn, why can't  I paint like that!!
So I think a little disappointment is me allowed...

*it's sort of like saying you can't appreciate woodworking done with power tools

I worked three years in interior workshop (as a draftsman) and I have as much appreciation for handwork as work with powertools, and I know some things just have to be done by hand because you can't do it with powertools and for other things it's just stupid not to use powertools.

Best regards,

Bopper.

oh, defintely.  i totally understand.  i wish i could do just about everything more better and quicker than i do.  i definitely don't think you're lazy; you work really hard at your realism.  again, i'm sorry.  i usually don't comment much on this topic.  it's not so much you and your posts as all the anti-postwork threads i've read in general and the frustration i've been dealing with every evening (and morning) the past few weeks as i fight my lack of painting abilities while waiting for my current struggle with Poser light and materials to render.  it would be much easier to just give up, post the raw renders, and say, "this is the best i can do."

• A work where you spend two weeks doing it is better than another one done in only five minutes???

• The joint bends bad, the hair doesn't look good, so you spend many hours in Photoshop correcting this. Meantime you forgot that the whole figure doesn't match the background image used.

• You use post=work to correct some error, but in a purist sense the error still exist and the correction process introduce new errors. The question is, the sum of these new errors is better than the original error?
  The only way to not create more errors is to not do the original error or at least make it not visible!

• Errors are part of our life, world is not perfect and is full of imperfections. A perfect 3d sceme looks artificial.

• Why do you look at a Greek statue? It has no arms and in most cases has no head, so it needs some post-worked head!

Quote - - A work where you spend two weeks doing it is better than another one done in only five minutes???

generally?  yes. 

Quote - - The joint bends bad, the hair doesn't look good, so you spend many hours in Photoshop correcting this. Meantime you forgot that the whole figure doesn't match the background image used.

um, not  so much.  if my background doesn't match, that's an error, but i've never once not worked on avoiding that.  not to mention, i've never once seen joints and hair that couldn't use work unless it was a very morphed figure or a custom made (as in modeled in that pose) figure.  actually, i've only seen perfect CG hair a few times.  and never once here.  since i'm not a huge fan of about 99% of purely rendered hair on CG society, i'd have to say i don't think it's a matter of working harder in 3d.

Quote - - You use post=work to correct some error, but in a purist sense the error still exist and the correction process introduce new errors. The question is, the sum of these new errors is better than the original error?
The only way to not create more errors is to not do the original error or at least make it not visible!

nice idea, but i've pretty much never seen it done.  in a purist sense the error still exists?  not, really.  i mean, the quality of corrections is debateable, but it doesn't "still exist" just because of where you corrected it. 

and frankly, this happens more in 3d than in 2d postwork.  V4 is a "correction" of V3, but i could name as many errors in V4 as in V3, and in precisely the areas they sought to correct.  her shoulders for instance.

and most of the time, yeah, imho, the sum of the errors made in 3d and those made in post errors is much better.

Quote - - Errors are part of our life, world is not perfect and is full of imperfections. A perfect 3d sceme looks artificial.

by definition, that's only true if you meant it to be artificial looking. otherwise, the errors are in fact the parts that look artificial. 

Quote - - Why do you look at a Greek statue? It has no arms and in most cases has no head, so it needs some post-worked head!

lots of greek statues are still perfectly in tact.  and most i've seen have much more accurate anatomy than more than half of the 3d models  i've seen, and all of the Poser models i know of.  not to mention what you can learn about dynamic posing and timeless aesthetics.    when a work has been created hundreds or even thousands of years ago and it still amazes and and impresses people, it's probably a good idea to study it and figure out what it does that has kept it so consistently popular.