Quote -

Excellent. I assume the figure on the right was VSS in both images, and the one on the left only in the second. The right-hand figure looks the same.

Correct! The man gets yet another prize!

Quote - here's the bust of nefertiti that i'm guessing this was based on:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0a/Nefertiti_berlin.jpg

the bust looks more Arabic/Middle Eastern, imho, but i can see where bB is coming from.

Yes, I was aiming for a 3d version of the famous Nefertiti bust from Berlin.

I could talk more about this topic, but it would be going OT on this thread.

Okay, I discovered what the problem was the VSS eyelashes (and anything else transmapped) - Cast Shadows. If I do a VSS render in P6 and turn off cast shadows, then hair, eyebrows, and eyelashes render nicely. If I leave it on, then transmapped items get clumpy and the shadows they cast are equally as clumpy. (You can see the error on the eyelashes in the Nefertiti render above, but it's a subtle error in this render.)

I need to look at the pre-VSS shader set-up to figure out why eyelashes render fine in firefly before applying VSS, but not after applying VSS.  Also, I have had problems with some hairstyles rendering badly in firefly (Helios for example), but not others (Miki2 Hair).

Is there a known bug in P6 Firefly which renders cast shadows on transmapped objects incorrectly?

In VSS, I disabled texture filtering. This makes the fine-hair transmaps clumpy. Go into the shader and put texture filtering back on the lash template.

Or, use better render settings. Decrease your Min Shading Rate to .2.

Also, if using depth-mapped shadows, make sure you have a large shadow map size.

just to add, if you decrease your min shading, you still have to decrease the shading for that item or group.  it won't change anything (as far as i've observed) just to decrease your minimum shading rate because the object or group shading rate trumps it if the local one is higher.  i've also found the shading rate is render size dependent. it actually gave me really bizarro errors with depth mapped shadows when i was rendering at a medium resolution.  i had to raise my shading rate to get the depth mapped shadows to blur properly.
in your Nefertiti image, i noticed grain in your shadows.  bagginsbill probably has much better advice than i, but you might make sure you have your pixel samples high enough.  and i think your filtering high enough and on gaussian?

Thanks for the Tips! ^^

bagginsbill,

I will edit the VSS probe for the lashes and transmaps to include Texture Filtering. (It's cool that you can edit the material for texture filtering instead of applying texture filtering to the entire image. Sometimes bad things happen with texture filtering turned on.)

I change "large shadow map size" on the lights, right?

cobaltdream,

Yes, there is graininess on Nefertiti's cheek. I think I rendered it with "box." I'll switch to "gaussian" and try your other suggestions too.

@Baggingsbill,

Hi, you gave some comment on my last picture with VSS about the white shining on the legs: does the default skin shade make some reflection? The problem was in the towel I made: when I unchecked the visible in raytracing option the shining was gone. It solved the problem but now I don't how it solved the problem. Can you give an opinion about that?

Best regards,

Bopperthijs

Ps: for everyone who hasn't any clue what I'm talking about: it's this picture:

www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php

Looks like an AO problem then. Hmmmm. What version of Poser are you using - what SR?

Did you change the AO settings in the shader? Or are you using AO on a light?

I'm using Poser pro Sr1 and I'm using AO on a IBL-light., I didn't change the AO settings in the shader.

Quick show and tell interjection.
I tried the VSS skin shader on black skin, and the result, I think is fantastic!
Look here: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1733217
 

Quote - Quick show and tell interjection.
I tried the VSS skin shader on black skin, and the result, I think is fantastic!
Look here: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1733217

I agree - very nice result. Great pose and expressions - I love it.

Quote - I'm using Poser pro Sr1 and I'm using AO on a IBL-light., I didn't change the AO settings in the shader.

So what are the AO settings on the light?

strength : 0.5
max distance : 1310
Bias: 26
Num Samples : 6

(unit settings: Millimeters)

There's your problem. Your bias is 26 millimeters. That's over an inch, which means that anything within one inch (such as the towel near her lower leg) will suddenly "disappear" from the AO calculation.

In your render, as her leg geometry approaches the towel, the AO gets stronger and stronger, and then suddenly goes to 0 at 26 mm. So the bottom 26mm of her leg is not shadowed at all - suddenly it gets bright again.

Hmm, I see, so I have to raise the bias, I'll try that out, but the last time I did  that I got horrible stains in the dark areas.

Thanks anyway.

Bopperthijs.

You have to LOWER the bias, not raise it. If you raise it the loss of shadow will get bigger.

And you're right, you are stuck between a rock and a hard place, out of the frying pan into the fire.

If bias is too low, you get horrible artifacts - black splotches.

If bias is too high, you are missing some shadow in the small areas.

With light-based AO, quite often it is too low and too high AT THE SAME TIME. In other words, no value will give correct results.

That is why I almost NEVER use light-based AO. That is why I have put AO into the VSS shaders for you. Material-based AO is different. It uses different algorithms. It works better. And when it still doesn't work good enough, you have more than one place to adjust. You can make it lower on the legs, but higher on the chest. This increases the number of acceptable solutions for your scene.

With light-based AO, the number of times it needs adjustment one way in one place and the other way in another place is very high. But you only have one knob - you cannot simultaneously raise it here and lower it there.

I fought this for a long time. Face_off told me over and over - do not use light-based AO. Use only material based AO. It is implemented better, and you have more control. I did not listen to him. I kept struggling with render settings, AO settings, camera angles, lighting tricks, blah blah blah. I did this for a year. I struggled with it through a thousand renders. I fought it because  (here is where you should laugh) I wanted to save time. I did not want to spend the effort to adjust AO settings on each and every material. However, by trying to find a way to use light-based AO, I ended up spending 100 times more of my time! I wasted my time.

Do not waste your time.

Also, I have made it easier to deal with the material AO now. We have VSS. You can connect it and tweak it in one place, and VSS will copy the node for you over and over. It's as easy as having light-based AO.

In addition, face_off made Occlusion Master so you can review and adjust all your AO nodes in one place. I have this too, in VSS. I simply have not given you this functionality in the free version. Heheheh.

Sorry, you were right:  I had to lower the bias ,slip of the keyboard.
And so I did and the first render turned out to have ugly spots, but on the second render I also lowered the max distance to 300, which seems to solve the problem: no more stains, and I have a beautiful render which I will upload in the gallery.
The reason why I want to use light based AO is that you get darker shadows and I can adjust the strength which isn't possible in the shader.

*I simply have not given you this functionality in the free version. Heheheh.

*You are cruel.

Bopper.

ooooooo.  yet again mention of the full product.  i was beginning to despair of its future release.

you know, i just realized that your efforts are all that makes me think about upgrading Poser at all.   i was wondering today why i've even been looking at Poser Pro when i know i need Vue for lots of ideas i have and it has all the capabilities i've been wanting for a long time.  sure Poser Pro would cost less for me, but it doesn't make sense to spend even $150 on one product when wanting to save up for a  $700 product that does the same and more.

and then i read this post and i realized that it was all you.  sure it's possible to make translucent waves and glowing materials in Vue, but there's no bagginsbill for Vue.

Thanks for VSS Bagginsbill!  I believe this will forever change the way I render.  The difference is night and day, doesn't take too long either! 

Not sure If I'm doing something wrong, but there aren't any parameters on the control prop?

Thanks!

WIlliam,

Nope - no parameters on the control prop. I assume you're referring to Parmatic-style shader parameters? There's no reason you couldn't have them on the prop or on the figure. However, the VSS shaders I released don't have any defined.

VSS will incorporate parameters, but I don't want to use Parmatic parameters. I'm literally, as we speak, working on how to use Flex to build a very sexy user interface for VSS. Then you will see some mind-blowing parameters on these shaders.

And then the tutorial will have to be updated ;-)

Wow looking forward to that, bagginsbill :)
Really appreciate you sharing your time and talents with us !

Quote - ...I'm literally, as we speak, working on how to use Flex to build a very sexy user interface for VSS. Then you will see some mind-blowing parameters on these shaders.

Oh, thank goodness! 

I feared you were done with VSS.

In case you're not familiar with it, Flex is a GUI toolkit that runs on Flash. This should work as you see it on every browser, PC or MAC.

Looks very cool, Bill.
From April to August is quite some time; when do you think your package will be ready to hit the RDNA store?
And, is there a way to alter the amounts of bump in your VSS script? It's always so cumbersome in Poser to get through all the material zones to just alter only one little number.

The amount of bump isn't in the script. It's in the template shader. Just change it there.

Attached Link: http://poserbagginsbill.googlepages.com/vsshomepage

I just wanted to give a heads up about something:

Digital Dreamer has assembled a whole lot of information from this thread in one Microsoft Word document. You may want to read it. It's up on the VSS Home Page.

Thank you DD - that was a lot of work!

It was a pleasure, my friend, the least I could do after all of the effort you have put in!

Thanks, Digital Dreamer!

However, I have no plans for acquiring Office 2008 any time soon.

Can we get an older format version also?

ooops, sent a pdf version to BB now! Sorry.

Quote - Thanks, Digital Dreamer!

However, I have no plans for acquiring Office 2008 any time soon.

Can we get an older format version also?

I'm pretty sure that there is a free plugin from Microsoft to allow opening of Office 2007 documents in Office 2003.

I'm trying to follow this post... LOL I dl'ed the word doc and thanks DD. I'm attaching a test render I did w/V4 and BB's outdoor beach lights. Any comments/suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks Don

Using PR2 right? Cut the light intensities in half. Otherwise looks great!

I really need to get back to producing VSS content updates. Right now I"m working on the new VSS user interface.

That will be so cool, rather than having to edit it all by hand! So, when will it be ready for us to play with..... next weekend?

Quote - Sneak Peak time. WIP - missing many features yet. But you can edit which figures and props to apply to, what the shader rules for copying are, and what templates you are using.

Very excited!  Where do I send my money?

 Neat! Looks easy to use. ^^

Now that looks great!

Bopper.

DD - The "photo" quality there is really high. I've not been getting results that good. You need to tell us precisely what you did to the shader, and how to reproduce your lights. Don't just say "used IBL" - I've used tons of IBL but never get results like that. Your image is one of the all-time best Poser-no-postwork renders I've ever seen. As a result, now you have to raise the bar on other stuff. Don't be sad for crits, because I'm only saying stuff due to the incredible realism you've produced. So - fix these things: Hair (bangs) bent funny Left shoulder strap bent oddly. Fingernail shader looks like rubber, not glossy. (I can help with that.) Don't straighten boot tips/toes - those are stiff-soled boots and should remain bent.

You guys who are getting great, awesome results need to tutor the others. I know for every one of you posters, there are like 20 lurkers who are wondering what the heck is going on, and they don't speak up because they're shy. VSS has been downloaded hundreds of times.

yeah, really great results!

@bagginsbill: i was looking through all sites but i never found your vss download. am i blind or can you please tell me where to find it?
i want to test it too ;)

thank you! and keep rendering!

ok. bear with me here, as I recall, these were the adjustments made:

IBL intensity was reduced to 35%, x rotate 6 deg, y rotate 12 deg, z rotate 1deg, scale 55%
main light intensity set at 35%, x rot -27 deg, y rot 5 deg, z rot -1
other light intensity set at 30%, x rot -14 deg, y rot 14 deg, z rot -1

In the Materials Room, simple color node was set to a pale blue
Specular Map Texture Strength was set to 0.7

In photoshop, the only postwork was Image/Adjustments/Auto Levels

Oh, and the texture was Elsa Wylde from MPlace here

Thanks for the positive feedback, I'd welcome some help with those nails!

Hope all this helps

DD

milanautica,

http://poserbagginsbill.googlepages.com/vsshomepage

The render settings were your maximum ones.

What in my opinion and experience, the most imporant ingredient is for a realistic render, next to VSS of course, is a good colortexturemap. In the last weeks that I've been experimenting with VSS I've tried several textures and only a few of them were good enough for me, even the new eltie Lana shader/textures didn't past my test. What important is, is that texture isn't too light, you need some contrast and changes of hue, otherwise the final result gets washed out completely.
Some texturemap are just a fill with a piece of skin and some cutout nipples, navel and pubic hair painted on (and sometimes not right on the spot so you get very weird results), but we all know that a real skin has different kinds of color, which differs with every person: sometimes a bit reddish on the elbows and knee, a whiter shade on the underside of your arm, legs, hands and feet, and some darker tones on the part that are more exposed to sunlight, sometimes a little blueish because of veins under the skin. These are things that VSS isn't capable off at the moment.
You can make those maps by using photographs and take pieces out of them, but it's also possible to paint a bodymap as long as you know where to put the right colors.
There is a big disadvantage on using photo's that I recently discovered: you can light a body as good as you can and take reference pictures for texturing, there will always be differences is dark and light parts, just caused by the shape of the body. I found this out when I realized that almost all my standing figures had a horizontal line on the belly with a darker color on the underside and a lighter color on the upperside. When I looked at the textures I noticed that a lot of them were lighther on places where the skin was on the upperside and darker where the skin was on the underside, especially the belly and the breasts, when you use this texture, and have some light from above (which in 90% of the scenes is the case) the light/dark effect is aggrevated, or you have to put your model upside down to compensate it.

Anyway: VSS alone isn't good enough (yet) for a realistic render, you also need a good colortexturemap.

Another thing I use against all advice is AO in the lighting. In my opinion is the AO in the shaders too weak (and strength doesn't work there), by adding more AO in the IBL I get more contrast. Be sure to switch off  smoothing in the rendersettings to avoid artifacts.

regards,

Bopper.

if you really have a problem with your textures,. take them into photoshop.  you can do a lot by dodging, burning, overlaying color, etc. 

my biggest peeve at the moment is lack of specular maps.  they really help.  i think the only textures in my runtime with specular maps are for V4. 

Quote -
I'm pretty sure that there is a free plugin from Microsoft to allow opening of Office 2007 documents in Office 2003.

Unnecessary... just go to openoffice.org and download the suite. Open source, and it opens up all the Office docs.

Quote - Render having edited settings in VSS - added a little blue to the skin tint as the color map was too red; also decreased the specular reflectivity. I think the skin looks great, thanks BB!

This is coming from a complete newb (just been using Daz Studio a couple of weeks; my Poser Pro is on the way), so take it for what it's worth: I think this is a great render. Skin is amazing, even the boots are great other than the zipper pull. But for me the eyes are a giveway (7/10). Hair is much better than I've managed so far... I'd say 8.5. The skin, though, is a 10. Just amazing.

I fully agree with bopperthijs; I had to experiment with several textures before finding one that reacted as well as the above. when I get my website back (server company had a fire!), I will devote a whole section to VSS and am thinking of listing the textures that work particularly well.