I doubt that anyone will be examining current 3D renders 3000 years from now.  But there's a decent chance that they'll still be able to admire (by then) 6000 year old ancient Greek sculptures.

Personally, I choose to postwork.  Others can do whatever they want to do.  It doesn't matter to me in the least.

Perhaps we should bury a stack of Poser renders, printed out, in a time capsule.......so that our brilliance will extend across the eons............V4 being admired in the year 2525......if Man is still alive........if Woman can survive.........

Quote - Perhaps we should bury a stack of Poser renders, printed out, in a time capsule.......so that our brilliance will extend across the eons............V4 being admired in the year 2525......if Man is still alive........if Woman can survive.........

And archeologists will say that Vicky was a godess of an ancient pagan religion and props were ritual objects of the cult.
Maybe someone still recite the sacred words of the Holly Poser manual, of course with a chorus of background chants.

And we shall rise up out of the ashes to rule the world with the magical, mythical powers of Poser.

...to be defeated by a square jawed hero, a plucky heroine and a pet monkey over a series of close shaves and comedic interludes involving some camels.

Coming to a thoughtscope near you next lunar cycle. Only 1299 bottlecaps.

You forgot to cue out with the theme song of "Fireball XL5.

Quote - > Quote - I don't think anyone said you couldn't do postwork.  Just that it is a bit dishonest to

put a picture in the Poser gallery that has been postworked when there is a
mixed medium gallery which is intended for postworked renders.
So no, we don't need a new gallery for the gods of poser, that gallery already
exists.  The mixed medium gallery.

If that was the criteria, then good 80-90% of images would have to go to mixed medium category. I think that would suck big time.
To me 'poser' gallery doesn't mean it has to be 100% poser. It would mean more like 'mostly poser'. I always assume that there are other components to images unless someone specifies 'no postwork whatsoever'

Much like any other technique, postwork is another tool, learn to use it to your advantage, and learn when and how to use it.... rather then knocking it down.

I've seen many poser images that would look a lot more visually pleasing with a little bit of postwork.

I guess my point was when I go to a website that has a Poser gallery, I want to see
what Poser is capable of doing.  If I wanted to see what someone was capable of
doing with Photoshop, I'd go to a Photoshop gallery.   
I guess it's sort of like a favorite baseball player breaking the home run record,
and then it's found out he was using steroids.  Postwork is sort of like steroids for Poser.
Yes, the picture may look prettier with postwork, but that doesn't show me what Poser
can do.

[quote
I guess my point was when I go to a website that has a Poser gallery, I want to see
what Poser is capable of doing.  If I wanted to see what someone was capable of
doing with Photoshop, I'd go to a Photoshop gallery.   
I guess it's sort of like a favorite baseball player breaking the home run record,
and then it's found out he was using steroids.  Postwork is sort of like steroids for Poser.
Yes, the picture may look prettier with postwork, but that doesn't show me what Poser
can do.

This is absurd. This is a site for artists first and foremost. If you want to see what Poser can do by itself then goto Smith Micro for that. Your going to tell me that that images produced with any other app don't use some post work and or compositing? Based on this, nearly all images would be in the mixed medium catagory. I have seen lots of technically correct images from other apps on these galleries but Poser adds the element of the human condition and does it well.

If we want the galleries expanded to be more accurate (which I don't thing we need) then maybe we add another level to them. Lets have the ELITEIST section and the rest of us will just be the ARTISTS.

edit: BTW I took the opportunity to look at your gallery and was suprised to find it empty. Post some of your PURE work for us to be amazed by please.

Quote -

I guess my point was when I go to a website that has a Poser gallery, I want to see
what Poser is capable of doing.  If I wanted to see what someone was capable of
doing with Photoshop, I'd go to a Photoshop gallery.   
I guess it's sort of like a favorite baseball player breaking the home run record,
and then it's found out he was using steroids.  Postwork is sort of like steroids for Poser.
Yes, the picture may look prettier with postwork, but that doesn't show me what Poser
can do.

using DAZ figures, or any purchased or free content not made in Poser for that matter, is a lot more like steroids than postwork.  photo-based or even painted textures show Photoshop a lot more than any postwork less than a fully repainted image.   i've known several people (outside of the community) who were disappointed at what pure Poser can do with no outside purchases or creations.  and who felt very disappointed to learn that they had to purchase or make all the content "Poser" users posted in their renders.  not to mention, professionals post process stills and video all the time. 

if you want to know what only Poser can do, you should do check out geep's tutorials and bagginsbill's procedurals.  otherwise, it's hypocritical to equate postwork with cheating, and entirely biased towards what you're personally willing to do to make a render.

Quote - " I guess my point was when I go to a website that has a Poser gallery, I want to see
what Poser is capable of doing.  If I wanted to see what someone was capable of
doing with Photoshop, I'd go to a Photoshop gallery.   
I guess it's sort of like a favorite baseball player breaking the home run record,
and then it's found out he was using steroids.  Postwork is sort of like steroids for Poser.
Yes, the picture may look prettier with postwork, but that doesn't show me what Poser
can do."

I use Poser as the primary program for almost all of my art,  I also use Photoshop to add details to my work that frankly I don't want to spend weeks trying to accomplish in Poser and probably couldn't get it to do anyway.

Since Poser is the program that I render my work with, I post my work in the Poser gallery and until such a time as they come up with a new category "Poser with Postwork" I will continue to do so.

If you really want to see what can be done with Poser alone then open it up and create with it.

I want my work to be the absolute best that I can possibly display and I can tell you it certainly  isn't going to come from a raw Poser render.

Did any of you fill out the member survey and wrote in the commentary you want better gallery classifications? That may be a better place to voice the opinions in this thread, at the moment.
I filled out mine... Had to say the same thing I said last year, but, I filled it out anyway.

Quote -
if you want to know what only Poser can do, you should do check out geep's tutorials and bagginsbill's procedurals.  otherwise, it's hypocritical to equate postwork with cheating, and entirely biased towards what you're personally willing to do to make a render.

Oh I do follow Dr. Geep and Bagginsbill quite avidly.  I love what Bagginsbill did with
matmatic.  In fact I created a shader group for V2 for him to go along with the one he
created for V3, and he was very pleased and appreciative of my efforts. It's not like I'm
some sort of noob that just picked up Poser yesterday. 
Look, I have no problem with people who want to use postwork to pretty up their
pictures.  You and a few others here seem to have the idea I am trying to ban using
postwork.  All I am saying is it is a bit disingenous to pass your work off as a Poser
render when the reason it looks the way it does is because of postwork.  Someone
just coming into Poser starts wondering why his/her renders never come off looking
that good and then gets the idea they have to go out and buy other programs to
bring their work up to snuff.  How about instead we show people what can be
done with Poser and Poser alone? 

Quote -

edit: BTW I took the opportunity to look at your gallery and was suprised to find it empty. Post some of your PURE work for us to be amazed by please.

I mostly post at the other R website. This one has a better forum and Bagginsbill and Dr. Geep,
so that's why I come here.  But with all their arbitrary rules I long ago gave up posting any renders
here.

Quote:
"Oh I do follow Dr. Geep and Bagginsbill quite avidly.  I love what Bagginsbill did with
matmatic.  In fact I created a shader group for V2 for him to go along with the one he
created for V3, and he was very pleased and appreciative of my efforts. It's not like I'm
some sort of noob that just picked up Poser yesterday. 
Look, I have no problem with people who want to use postwork to pretty up their
pictures.  You and a few others here seem to have the idea I am trying to ban using
postwork.  All I am saying is it is a bit disingenous to pass your work off as a Poser
render when the reason it looks the way it does is because of postwork.  Someone
just coming into Poser starts wondering why his/her renders never come off looking
that good and then gets the idea they have to go out and buy other programs to
bring their work up to snuff.  How about instead we show people what can be
done with Poser and Poser alone?  "

If the galleries were just about what Poser can do alone they wouldn't be very sucessful. The point is we are not here to extoll the virtues of Poser or any other app. Were her to express ourselves artistically. There also happen to be some very creative technicians (for lack of a better word) that produce stunningly realistic images as well. Additionally if you would look at the gallery closely tou'll find a number of posts that state "postwork free" or similar verbage. We have a bit of everything here and thats what makes it great.

Quote -
 In fact I created a shader group for V2 for him to go along with the one he
created for V3, and he was very pleased and appreciative of my efforts. It's not like I'm
some sort of noob that just picked up Poser yesterday.

i never said you were.  in fact, i was assuming you weren't.  otherwise it wouldn't matter to you whether it was done in Poser or postwork.  because a newbie doesn't have a bias towards a certain type of solution.  it's all equally hard.

Quote - All I am saying is it is a bit disingenous to pass your work off as a Poser
render when the reason it looks the way it does is because of postwork.  Someone
just coming into Poser starts wondering why his/her renders never come off looking
that good and then gets the idea they have to go out and buy other programs to
bring their work up to snuff.  How about instead we show people what can be
done with Poser and Poser alone? 

then don't use V2 or V3.  and don't use textures.  otherwise, it's much more disingenuous to newbies than if you do postwork.  i can't say how many different beginners i've seen become disappointed at what only Poser could do, and they didn't have a bit of a problem with postwork.  they could use image editors, but they couldn't model and texture.  mostly not online beginners, either.

and it's not disingenuous, it's how CG is done.  but it is disingenuous to say what you're concerned with is pure Poser and then bring postwork as the major issue.  what you're concerned with is postwork, and that's a personal bias.  if it was just show what can be done with Poser alone, then all those DAZ figures and bought content and textures would be a bigger concern, because they're much more prevalent.  or the renders that are done in other apps, making it seem as if Firefly can do stuff it can't.  or the number of renders with custom morph that make it seem like figures are better than they are.

Quote - > Quote -

edit: BTW I took the opportunity to look at your gallery and was suprised to find it empty. Post some of your PURE work for us to be amazed by please.

I mostly post at the other R website. This one has a better forum and Bagginsbill and Dr. Geep,
so that's why I come here.  But with all their arbitrary rules I long ago gave up posting any renders
here.

Thats to bad. Tell me name you post under there and which there your referring to and I'd love to look at your work. By your term restrictive you may be referring to the "otica site"?  It's certainly more restrictive here, but we need both and one site can't very well accomodate that.

Look forward to your response and taking a peek at your work :)

Don

just to clarify, in my experience most newbies don't participate in this community.  and they don't buy any content.  at all.  and they don't download content.  but they do have access to image editors and have no problem either using them or learning to use them along with Poser.

All I am saying is it is a bit disingenous to pass your work off as a Poser
render when the reason it looks the way it does is because of postwork.

No matter how you spin it or try to interpret it to your liking, my work is still a Poser render and no amount of postwork is ever going to change the fact that it was rendered in Poser.

So to say that those of us who do postwork and then put it in the Poser gallery are disingenuous is a load of bull.

My work looks the way it does because I take the time and the effort to make it look that way and just don't render something up and call it done, it's called being an artist and the last time I checked this site was for and about artists.

Painters don't always use the same size brush -- and sculptors don't always use the same size chisel.  In fact, sometimes painters don't use brushes at all, and sometimes sculptors don't use chisels at all.  They use whatever tool comes to hand that will do the job that they want it to do.

I've never understood this obsessive drive to "purify" Poser renders.  If that's what floats your boat -- then great.  Make all of the raw renders that you like.  Astound us with your talent & skill.  I'll still continue to stick with what works for me.  And others will continue to stick with what works for them.

In my view, "purism", when it comes to 3D (or 2D CGI), is little more than a self-imposed limitation for no valid reason.  If you like to operate under such self-imposed limitations -- then that's all well and good.  I won't criticize you for doing it.  Have fun.  Where the problem comes in is when people begin to imply that "pure" (read: raw) renders are somehow representative of "valid" artwork -- while "impure" (read: postworked) renders are "invalid" artwork.  IMO, the avid postworker is actually displaying greater skill and flexibility than his purist bretheren.  Greater skill because he's shown that he knows how to work in more than one software package.  And greater flexibility because he's not permitted himself to be bound by any sets of "rules" in regards to the "proper" way to do things.  Particularly not when others attempt to impose those rules on him.

Queue exit music..........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhNM2K8cmU8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXGGuqXB8h4

*using DAZ figures, or any purchased or free content not made in Poser for that matter, is a lot more like steroids than postwork.  photo-based or even painted textures show Photoshop a lot more than any postwork less than a fully repainted image.   i've known several people (outside of the community) who were disappointed at what pure Poser can do with no outside purchases or creations.  and who felt very disappointed to learn that they had to purchase or make all the content "Poser" users posted in their renders.  not to mention, professionals post process stills and video all the time. 

• If I had to do it with pure poser, I would given up long time ago, and as a matter of fact I did : I bought poser 1, 2 and 3 and I didn't use it for a long time because I was rather disappointed of the possibilities.
  Until years later I discovered the community on the internet and saw what was possible with Daz Victoria (and other models of course ) and poser4 pro pack, I bought the new poser 5 and I was sold.
  For me everything you can import in poser, models, props, backgrounds, textures, you name it, is still part of the poserscene you make, because poser has that possibility. And that is what poser is: you compose a scene, you import or load all the stuff you need, you render it and you export your picture. And what you do with that picture, I don't care at all.

 Greater skill because he's shown that he knows how to work in more than one software package.  And greater flexibility because he's not permitted himself to be bound by any sets of "rules" in regards to the "proper" way to do things.  Particularly not when others attempt to impose those rules on him.

If you make your own props, figures, textures then you will have to use more software packages because poser isn't just capable of that. You can't "create" anything in poser (well almost anything, you can use primitives to build things, read Geep's tutorials) so you have to buy it, download it for free or to make it.
That is what I meant with pre-work.

Bopper.

Quote - Painters don't always use the same size brush -- and sculptors don't always use the same size chisel.  In fact, sometimes painters don't use brushes at all, and sometimes sculptors don't use chisels at all.  They use whatever tool comes to hand that will do the job that they want it to do.

I've never understood this obsessive drive to "purify" Poser renders.  If that's what floats your boat -- then great.  Make all of the raw renders that you like.  Astound us with your talent & skill.  I'll still continue to stick with what works for me.  And others will continue to stick with what works for them.

In my view, "purism", when it comes to 3D (or 2D CGI), is little more than a self-imposed limitation for no valid reason.  If you like to operate under such self-imposed limitations -- then that's all well and good.  I won't criticize you for doing it.  Have fun.  Where the problem comes in is when people begin to imply that "pure" (read: raw) renders are somehow representative of "valid" artwork -- while "impure" (read: postworked) renders are "invalid" artwork.  IMO, the avid postworker is actually displaying greater skill and flexibility than his purist bretheren.  Greater skill because he's shown that he knows how to work in more than one software package.  And greater flexibility because he's not permitted himself to be bound by any sets of "rules" in regards to the "proper" way to do things.  Particularly not when others attempt to impose those rules on him.

Queue exit music..........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhNM2K8cmU8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXGGuqXB8h4

Well, Xeno, there you go confuzzing people with common sense again!
You little pot stirrer you!  ;)   :thumbupboth:  After your post, I don't have much to say, you said what I was thinking!

Though I use poser, I generally render in sketch only, and airbrush color from scratch in Photoshop using airbrushes.  Therefore all my artwork is under the title "Mixed medium" as to me, thats exactly what it is, a mixture and blend of elements to gain the finished work.

Thats just me though.  If someone is heavily using poser but using postwork to fix problems or add hair or something, i'm perfectly happy with it being listed in Poser.... after all thats the base program used.

Can't we all just make pretty pictures that please ourselves and be happy with that?

Can't we all just make pretty pictures that please ourselves and be happy with that?

Amen to that!