Take a look.  Looks broken don't it? But it works like a charm.   I don't know why and I made it.  Any ideas?

I'll keep posting on it as I figure it out.  I hate not knowing.

Perhaps some strange quirk with Poser?

Is it next part of your second hip figures?
OMG I wish to understand all this time. Your last thread was great but I cannot go follow your advices. Is there any chance to find step by step tutorial.
I'm quite familiar with rigging and joint zones but it was too difficult for me. I was able to fix few characters but I never was able to make so real bends like yours. It make me nervous.

Ave Phantom

If it's a ghost bone with no groups attached to it, it'll have minimal effect.

mike, the larger auxiliary hip bone appears to be attached to the main hip bone, and the
smaller auxiliary hip bone appears to be attached between the abdomen and main hip bone.
perhaps they increase the "degrees of freedom " of the rotational permutations.

Ok here's another pic with some labels.  I have figured out a little but still don't know why it works.  In the bottom pic you see Hip2 with it's end point moved back to the center of X which is where it should be, and it is the parent of the two buttock bones.  But when it is in this position the model goes crazy and spazz' out, nothing works and it's totally unstable. As soon as I pose one of the legs the Hip2 bone snapps back to the position you see in the first pic and everything is stable again.  It refuses to stay withit's end point in the center (which is fine since that's the only way it works.) I even deleted the bone and drew in a new one in the correct position and reconnected the buttocks bones, and still as soon as I pose one of the legs it pops back into the original position. Very strange behavior.

drapak12: Yes this is the new hip rigg I made, it's better than the last one because it gives complete autonomy to the Hip2 body part, and allows it to move and bend with disregard to the top half of the model.  I will try to explain what the idea is and how it is set up.  I don't have any tutorials for it but maybe I can write one.

Gareee:  It's not a ghost bone, it's actually the parent to the whole bottom half of the model and has a group called Hip2.  Which is what makes this so strange, it shouldn't work, but does.

Miss Nancy:  Yes that is what it does, and it gives Hip2 complete autonomy, it can roll around as it wish's, and with IK on it can roll around while mostly ignoring even the bottom half of the model.  But being in there sideways it shouldn't work.

I recall someone talking about something like this a few weeks ago here.

Quote - I recall someone talking about something like this a few weeks ago here.

Yes that was me, this is a continuation of my first "two hip" rigg just taken some steps farther, I have been working on these ideas now for a couple of years, I first posted it in the critique forum with Brad my model about a year and a half ago, and have been building on it all this time.

At last I've understand almost all what you wrote. :)

I do not know why it works but I know why it happens. I've seen it few times in figures which have bones addet to multiple joints (1bone =>left and righ bones). For example V4 with moving breasts had similar problem with chest. I havent this figure and cannot give you more details, but I remember when I investigated it with my friend. We were surprised because bones looks terrible when bends looks ok. Moreover manually setting chest bone to vertical position change nothing. After leaving setup room chest was slanting again. Maybe I'm wrong and breasts bones were not symetrical but effects were very similar.

I think that you find answer reading cr2 rather then editing joints.

drapak12:

Yes that sounds like it.  Read the cr2?,,,,,,,,,,,Oh no, I'm terrible with cr2's.  Well at least it works fine as it is.

Check it out a new little clip of Hip2 in action and remember it still has a regular Poser hip and a hip handle to use for even more limber bends.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZR-_TLIupE

And anyone out there who wants to use this rigging is perfectly welcome to, consider it my gift to the comunity. I'm not stingy, I just don't have much to give except for my crazy little ideas for rigging.

Cheers,

Mike.

Quote - Yes that sounds like it.  Read the cr2?,,,,,,,,,,,Oh no, I'm terrible with cr2's.  Well at least it works fine as it is.

Yes!!! I hope that you spend your time on preparing tutorial :)

But seriously - I've talked to my friend. Now I'm sure that problem was with V4 nipple bones. He does not remember where she was from - probably rotica. The same bones has The Girl from DAZ. Girl skeleton looks ok so I think that problem is not with additional bones but with V$ skeleton. If I must read hundreds pages of cr2 I always try to compare 2 similar bones. If I cannot find difference or I cannot find bone :) (sometimes it difficult because of cr2 size) I usually quit. Anyway I'm courius what do you find comparing original V4 hip setting and your V4 hip setting.

Refering to your rigging experiments I very often edited joints in my figures. First I made abdomen longer and edited joints in abdomen hip area. Then I I wanted make my figure sit, I rotated hip acc. x axis, bend, abdomen and of coures bend thigs, but less then normal. It does not work so perfect as your Hip2 but let me use conforming clothing if I readjust theirs hip as well.
Bending thighs is most problem in Poser. I've spent few month or even years trying to make any figure which can sit. Real human sitting has buttock and thighs flat and wide (most of you can check it, because you probably sitting next to your computer). In poser sitting figure has buttock bulged. It looks better in "adult" poses then in normal sitting pose :D
I've tried magnets, morphs, additional handle bones etc. So in your idea additional thigh/buttocks bones look very interesting for me. Mine experiments failed.

Reffering youtube clip. In 15-30 sec. of clip Vicky shakes her hip. I've obtain similar result conforming figure to blank. Later I moved hip of conformed Vicky what affect only her abdomen and thighs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gV7K9jI5Qok

[...]
And anyone out there who wants to use this rigging is perfectly welcome to, consider it my gift to the comunity. I'm not stingy, I just don't have much to give except for my crazy little ideas for rigging.

Cheers,

Mike.

It's really fantastic to see what your rig ist doing when thinking, that we got professionaly rigged figure in the first place.
I'd really like to play a little with your rigging... from what I've seen from your postings, your rigging
should make it possible to do many poses without the use of additional magnets or Posers morph brush!

phantom3D, your accomplishments in creating flexible human figures exceeds my own, but I’m wondering what would happen if you un-parent Hip 2 from its children, create a bone holder child for Hip 2 and then parent the thighs.

Bones in Poser want to snap to the first child so the solution (until they fix the code) is to create the first child straight ahead of the bone to hold it in place.

I don’t know if your figure will bend was well  when this is done but it's worth a try. 

 

Thanks Ya'll for the interest, and suggestions.

Paloth: that might just work will have to try it.

Here's another little clip thought it turned out kindof cool.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioklsUM9jMk

Looks dificult........................

That clip does indeed look very cool, Mike. I think she'll need some gravity morphs for her breasts soon, though, because I don't like that implantsy look at all. :biggrin:

Odf - maybe there is very cold ;)
i wish my girlfriend can walk this way.

Quote - That clip does indeed look very cool, Mike. I think she'll need some gravity morphs for her breasts soon, though, because I don't like that implantsy look at all. :biggrin:

Yes that is a good idea, she will definitely need some gravity morphs. LOL.

Quote - > Quote - That clip does indeed look very cool, Mike. I think she'll need some gravity morphs for her breasts soon, though, because I don't like that implantsy look at all. :biggrin:

Yes that is a good idea, she will definitely need some gravity morphs. LOL.

I have to say though that the breast handles you added are very helpful for smaller adjustments. Things like lifting the figure's arms or leaning sideways and such. I don't know if it's feasible, but if we could add some JCMs for those handles to make realistic lie-down and lean forward morphs and such, that would be incredibly cool.

Anyway, that hand walk looks amazing there. In the meantime, I've played with your rig some more. So far, I'd only seen the end-results of your rig, which are pretty astonishing in themselves. But the real power lies in the ease with which one can achieve natural poses by just dragging at some body parts. I know that's how IK is supposed to work, but it never felt so organic with any of the other figures.

Fantastic work, mate!

Thanks odf.  I'm pretty happy with it.  You know what you said about Adding JCM's to the handles, yes thats's easily possible.  I think that's the way to go too for the gravity stuff, cause that would make the morphs easily animated with the bone.

I've mentioned above about V4 with nipple bones. Bones work ok but it does not look natural. Correct but nothing special. The Girl whas nipple bones also and either her bones are not best solution.
Before I've discovered Poser I saw female breast and there were no bones - I'm sure ;)
I'm sure that you can do it great but I think that results will not be worth of your work.

The best solution for breast animation are not bones nor morph but just simply magnets. I've seen magnet set "natural bounce". It works great. Do not remember for which figure "natural bounce" was made but I made similar sets for mine figures and works great. If you place base and magnet outside body it very easy to control.

BTW most natural looking V4 breast mophs are made with dynamic cloth. V3 and figures which breast are divided on chest/collar are not easy to morph but V4 is great. Anyway I prefere magnets (because of easier controll, not better results) I do not want to show images because of forum rules.

I thought about magnets, and I have not tried them for the breasts yet but I will try them out and see how they perform.

Look here:
http://www.most-digital-creations.com/natural_bounce.htm

Thanks for the link, drapak12.  Now I have that and Phantom3D's rigs to look forward to.  (You ARE going to sell them to partially recompense your efforts, aren't you, Phantom3D?  [grin]

I am going to give them away, I decided I really don't want to make any money off of anything that involves anyones models but my own. Perhaps S/M will like the idea of the rigg and adopt it, that would be nice.

Free is good.  I can afford free.  I just wanted to see your contribution and efforts compensated.

Quote - Free is good.  I can afford free.  I just wanted to see your contribution and efforts compensated.

I just figure there will be alot less mudd slinging if I'm not trying to make any money off of them.  I will make some money from my own models with this rigg, even if I give the rigg away my models have some other features that make them unique and desirable other than the rigg, so no harm to me to give it away. But thanks for the thought.

Paloth:  I tried out your Dark Nargron and tashbot today. Great stuff! Impressive work, thanks for such a super freebie.

Anyone who wants to sling Harry Mudd is welcome to the effort; he's too big and heavy for me.  [grin]

At any rate, I look forward to the releases of your work, whenever they come available.