I see Poser8 is being seen at Siggraph 2009. What does anyone think of the new figures-features in the press release? I'm surprised no one mentioned anything.

No one mentioned anything?

Poser people are very honest and out spoken I'm no where as tech oriniated / qualified to judge the new poser. I have poser7, and I was wondering if poser8 was really better. I realize poser8 isn't released yet, but reading the release text may help. I haven't explored all the possabiles of poser7, but poser 8 may be a big benifit to me.

I don't use animation, but there may be other benifits. I don't understand all the features mentioned in the release.

You did read the threads already posted in the previous comment?

I'm sorry, I didn't realize the underlined words were to other threads. I just thought it was to emphize those words. I guess r_hatch assumed I was smarter than I am.Thanks hborre, and you too r_hatch.

Thanks again.

But congrats to Philywebrider for being the very first to mention anything.

the 'official press release' listing what it has is a few posts up from here...

If Poser 8 is not a full 64 bit application. I'm not very likely to buy it. I'll pick up Daz Studio 3 Advanced instead. Why buy a I7 920 quad core/Gigabyte GA58 Extreme/Windows 7 64 bit system (Which I'm working on.), and run a 32 bit graphics program on it, that will not use the full memory, and power of the system. It's insane.

Quote - If Poser 8 is not a full 64 bit application. I'm not very likely to buy it. I'll pick up Daz Studio 3 Advanced instead. Why buy a I7 920 quad core/Gigabyte GA58 Extreme/Windows 7 64 bit system (Which I'm working on.), and run a 32 bit graphics program on it, that will not use the full memory, and power of the system. It's insane.

Just how many 64 bit programs do you already have?

The transition from 32 to 64 bits is going just as fast as the transition from 16 bit to 32 bit.  I.e. not very fast at all.

Quote -

The transition from 32 to 64 bits is going just as fast as the transition from 16 bit to 32 bit.  I.e. not very fast at all.

I wouldn't say that. All the major 3D apps have 64 bit versions now, (and have had for a couple years now), and there are a few minor apps as well.
Freaking Photoshop even has a 64 bit version now too!

All but Poser. Yes, of course, Poser, always the last app to get anything new, always several years behind the curve. I suppose they figure everyone is spending all their money on "content" and can't afford 64 bit computers?

Quote - I suppose they figure everyone is spending all their money on "content" and can't afford 64 bit computers?

That's more true than it ought to be, really.

Quote -

That's more true than it ought to be, really.

Tragically, you're probably right.

As to how many 64 bit  3d graphics apps I have, responding to prev post. None at the moment. Being I do not have my 64 bit system yet. I have a list of graphics programs I plan to buy that are 64 bit. after I get my 64 bit pc. I really love Poser, don't get me wrong. It's the first 3d graphics program I started out with (Poser 4). I just do not want to spend my money (given the way the economy is right now) on something that's more, or less obsolete right out of the box. Given the type of computer power you can get for next to nothing. If Smith Micro comes out with a 64 bit ver of Poser 8, let's say by Xmas, or so great. But as it is right now It's looks like Daz Studio 3 Advanced.  Because of the economy, and geting the most for my dollar.

I will wait for 64-bit rendering from some future version of Poser that has the presently proffered enhancements of Poser 8 (and maybe more). I already have Poser Pro (1) and going back to 32-bit rendering is not about to happen. If I bought Poser 8 and used all of its enhancements, I would not be able to load a scene from it into Poser Pro to render it. This leaves SM's top of the line product behind their development curve, which is a very curious way of doing business.

Most desktop computers being sold now can run a 64-bit operating system. It will take a while before most people own such a machine. Businesses will buy 64-bit very much more quickly, especially those that do graphics work. Through Poser Pro (1), Poser is one of the few graphics programs I own, or am likely to buy, that does not benefit much (if at all) from increased memory and faster processors/more processor cores. The only exception is the 64-bit rendering.

Because the code for 64-bit rendering is already written (including the ability to render on legacy 32-bit operating systems), putting out a new version of Poser that cannot render in 64-bit is backwards moving, not moving forward. If a lot of content is developed that takes advantage of the rigging, the lighting/illumination enhancements, or wxPython, then all the people/companies that bought Poser Pro (1) will be unable to use the new content. Content developers are always concerned about backwards compatibility. Now, SM has introduced forward compatability problems. Ouch! This deficit will discourage the development of content taking advantage of Poser 8’s enhancements.

For people who have 32-bit operating systems and do not have Poser, or who have an older version of Poser, this version is a step forward. I hope crowds of people buy it, and that Smith Micro makes lots of money so that the Poser applications survive. Then eventually they may drag all their lines of Poser into the 21st century.

lmk

Quote -
...I suppose they figure everyone is spending all their money on "content" and can't afford 64 bit computers?

Keep in mind that the number of people who are active on forums are about equal to the rounding error in sales numbers.  Poser 8's requirements are very close to Poser 7's, which means it will run quite well on a 5 year-old laptop, as I was doing until recently, when I upgraded to a three year old Core Duo laptop.

I have a feeling that's Poser's Bread-and Butter market...

Quote - I will wait for 64-bit rendering from some future version of Poser that has the presently proffered enhancements of Poser 8 (and maybe more).

That's pretty much where I'm coming from too.
I may hold off on P8 because I prefer to get the all singing all dancing P8 Pro, or PPro2 or whatever they will call it.

However, I see the same thing happening with Windows 7.
The lower versions are already up for preorder... but no ultimate.

Poser Pro was just a bad idea all around IMHO.  Maybe a Poser Pro Render Tool set for render farms would have been a good idea, but when basic features aren't even the same and the upgrades aren't released at the same time how can we know which we need?

(As far as I know their features are mostly the same.  When P8 comes out though, it will be ahead of PPro in some places and yet still behind in others.) 

Trying to upgrade two programs with staggered releases just to keep up with every new feature is a lot to ask of your market base.  I 'd prefer the way Caligari marketed its programs in the '90s.  The Pro version cost $1995, while the hobbyist version was about $300.  Each upgrade to the hobbyist version brought it up to the level of the previous pro version.  Pros got the immediate benefit of the program's development, while hobbyists always knew what would be in their next upgrade.

Wait, how is that different from simply discounting the older version?

If I'm willing to stay one revision behind, then I pay $300 forever, and never pay the $1995 that funds the development of new features.

Isn't that how Caligari put themselves out of business?

I'm going to assume that having two products was not a mistake. If it was a mistake, then Poser 8 would have everything in it, wouldn't it? They would have abandoned the two-product strategy. Since they didn't, I'm under the assumption it was a great success.

Without sales figures to back it up, how can you conclude the two-product strategy is a mistake?

They are able to keep the price of basic Poser low for hobbyists. For enthusiasts and professionals who really feel they must have the additional features unique to Pro, they pay more, even double, right?

A single product, at a hybrid price point, would probably have decreased total revenues. Is there some other criteria you think should be the deciding factor?

I am CTO of a company that makes interactive self-service kiosks and digital signage.

We often have discussions where it becomes clear how dangerous it is to make marketing decisions based on personal preference - how wrong it is to project your own belief systems onto the population at large, and conclude what will work or not work from that.

For example, I do not understand why some people go to AAA to pay their car insurance in person, in cash. I would never do that. I pay online, click click. But thousands of people do it every day. So we made a bill-pay kiosk for AAA, so that AAA did not have to have so many customer service reps. Now the weird people who are not like me can still walk into AAA with a fistful of cash, but they feed it into a machine. Lines are shorter, customer service reps are free to walk about and help out and chat with the customers about the weather. Fewer customer service reps are needed, so AAA saves money. Everybody is happy.

This makes no sense to me, and if I were foolish, I would judge it to be a preposterously stupid idea to buy such kiosks. But that would be a flawed analysis. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that your preferences turn into recipes for more revenue, or that your opposition to some behavior or process proves the business model is doomed.

When Poser Pro was released, it had some features that most every one would want, and some features that only certain people would need or could use. I wanted the 64-bit rendering capability, and the stability of the program. Gamma correction, content, normal mapping, and some other things were okay to get, but not what I needed.

The rendering queue, and the ability to transfer work to high-end applications were features I did not care about (I don’t animate, and Poser is the most advanced and expensive program I use for rendering). I decided that Poser Pro was worth it to me. Others decided not to buy, and had to wait for a release of Poser that offered features they want and can afford.

Now, with Poser 8, it is my turn to wait. This version of the application has features I would like to have, but does not have the one feature I will not do without. I am disappointed, but I am not angry with Smith Micro. In fact, I like the way they have been letting developers for the program share information about it.

I hope it will not take ½ to one year for Poser Pro to be updated, but I can’t do anything about it if it does. I am not going to punish myself by not buying the next version of Poser that has what I want. From all I have seen and heard, Poser 8 is a great program, and I think that people who can do without 64-bit rendering should buy it.

lmk

Quote -
For example, I do not understand why some people go to AAA to pay their car insurance in person, in cash. I would never do that. I pay online, click click...

Glad you mentioned this; I pay everything online-except my property taxes, which I hand carry over to City Hall.  I need to go pay them tomorrow, so Thanx for the reminder.  I do pay by cheque, tho'...

"Everybody is happy." 

Except the laid off CSRs. It's a rare change that leaves everyone happy.

You're quite the pessimist, eh?

They didn't lay anybody off. You think those are long-term employees? They had to hire them constantly to replace those that left.

Poser 8 will be great, I put de voodoo on dem an make dem do all we want.

Quote - Wait, how is that different from simply discounting the older version?

If I'm willing to stay one revision behind, then I pay $300 forever, and never pay the $1995 that funds the development of new features.

Isn't that how Caligari put themselves out of business?

The people that were paying the $1995 were the professionals who needed the new features to stay competitive, and they assumed these people wouldn't want to be a version behind.  Not sure what the upgrade pricing was on the Pro version, but it wasn't $1995 each time.  I'm pretty sure of that.

Caligari didn't put themselves out of business by doing that.  They let Microsoft buy them, gave the latest version of trueSpace away for free, and then were shut down by Microsoft when the economy tanked.  I think they should have sold it for something, instead of giving it away, but I also am surprised Microsoft didn't see a use for trueSpace in another department.  The XNA initiative could have made good use of it and maybe kept it going.  Then again maybe Microsoft didn't want to be seen as competing with Autodesk or blender by giving out a powerful 3D program for free.

There are features that it makes sense to charge pros an arm and a leg for.  Network rendering is a good one as most hobbyists do not have render farms at home.  64-bit makes less sense as nearly every new computer sold is now 64-bit, and that particular feature has already been implemented.  

Quote -

There are features that it makes sense to charge pros an arm and a leg for.  Network rendering is a good one as most hobbyists do not have render farms at home.  64-bit makes less sense as nearly every new computer sold is now 64-bit, and that particular feature has already been implemented.  

Without a 64-bit OS you won't get 64-bit performance. I see many more computers in stores with 32-bit versions of Vista. SM is probably correct in assuming or maybe even knowing that most Poser users have 32-bit OS systems. They could probably base it a little on the sales of Poser Pro and the comments made by users here.

I do hope that 64-bit is planned eventually for regular Poser and that they roll out a Poser Pro with 8's features soon for the Pro users.

I can remember when everything was 16-bit. When that new 32-bit gee-whizzery came along, it took a while for everyone to get on board. I dare say it'll be the same for 64-bit: in the not too distant future it will be the norm. Until then, software developers have to have a foot in both camps.

I got Poser Pro purely for the 64-bit rendering: it is a lot faster. I'd be interested if any of those involved in Poser 8 have compared render times via the new, more efficient multi-thread engine in P8 with Poser Pro.

If comparing, compare also the amount of memory needed to render some scenes. On my quad core computer with Vista 64-bit, and 4 gigs of memory, Poser 7's FireFly simple crashed to the desktop when it reached about 1,75 gigs, but Poser Pro (1) did not crash at 2.5 gigs.

I don't do many renders with a few spheres and cubes. When there are several fully clothed people, some textured architecture, a few items in the street, a sky, etc. the memory needed to render can be quite high. The majority of computers are limited to 2 gigs per application in a 32-bit OS. Does Poser 8 manage memory in such a way as to actually render scenes that are too big for Poser 7? Has anyone tried to push Poser 8's FireFly to its memory limit?

lmk

Quote - If comparing, compare also the amount of memory needed to render some scenes. On my quad core computer with Vista 64-bit, and 4 gigs of memory, Poser 7's FireFly simple crashed to the desktop when it reached about 1,75 gigs, but Poser Pro (1) did not crash at 2.5 gigs.

lmk

Poser Pro has better memory usage if I recall. But I believe you are severely limiting yourself with only 4GB of RAM. I have read and heard many places that if you are using a quad-core processor, you need at least 8GB because each core needs at least 2GB of RAM for best operation. What you are doing is equivalent to running Windows on a single core chip with only 1GB of memory.

ksanderson:

I have what the computer came with. Most of these early 64-bit machines come with 4 memory slots. To upgrade means to buy 4 2-gig sticks. The price is coming down, but sadely this will leave me with 4 memory sticks that will not go into anything.

LMK

I know the upgrade pain, but you can always hold on to them for parts for a basic server or donate them to a friend's computer. I'd go for the upgrade if you can afford it. You're shortchanging your system and what you can do, and memory is so cheap these days. I can remember paying almost $700 for 16 MB back in 1994! I'm seeing 2GB sticks now for as low as $33 to up to $100. So for $66 - $200 you could never see an out of memory error again for quite some time.

Quote - ...We often have discussions where it becomes clear how dangerous it is to make marketing decisions based on personal preference - how wrong it is to project your own belief systems onto the population at large, and conclude what will work or not work from that...

That piece of wisdom applies to many other areas, such as websites and forums. I've seen many site owners/admins try to overly influence their online communities only to see them fail for lack of encouraging members input. I suppose if the owner set his or her forum up to hear their own voices then it serves a purpose, although I can't see what that purpose would be.

Anyway I'm a bit off track here, I just wanted to point out that your comment is very significant.

I would like to see poser come out with a built in modeler like z brush and better camera you can place anywhere without alot of hassel, and a more undestandable animation engine where you do not have to guess so much and have inserts that are easy to understand for the facial animation work.

Quote - I would like to see poser come out with a built in modeler like z brush and better camera you can place anywhere without alot of hassel, and a more undestandable animation engine where you do not have to guess so much and have inserts that are easy to understand for the facial animation work.

Adding a built-in modeler would push the price up way too much, IMO

Quote - I would like to see poser come out with a built in modeler like z brush and better camera you can place anywhere without alot of hassel, and a more undestandable animation engine where you do not have to guess so much and have inserts that are easy to understand for the facial animation work.

In that case, you are looking at paying ZBrush kind of prices for Poser - modellers aren't cheap (apart from the free ones that is obviously)

Has it been stated anywhere if Poser 8 is 64-bit? I've looked at the press releases and it is not clear to me. Like many others here, I bought PPro for 64-bit rendering. Scenes that would crash P7 render just fine in PPro's 64 bit engine. At this point, I think it would be silly for SM not to develop P8 for 64-bit; when some budget computers are now coming shipped with 3GB of ram, the mainstream computers will probably be 4+ GB requiring a 64-bit OS very soon.

On a sidenote, I just rebuilt one of my computers with a Phenom II X4 955 (3.4Ghz) and 8GB of ram on Windows 7 64-bit. In a little "bakeoff" with my older rendering box (Core 2 Duo 2.8 Ghz, 4GB Ram, Vista 64), I expected the Phenom II to slightly beat the old C2D box with the extra cores and the clockspeed advantage, but  it usually finished rendering the test scenes before the old machine even finished loading all the assets (amounting to 2-3X faster)! I would say the 8GB of memory was key; it  is needed for quad core machines to really use the extra cores over a dual-core setup (Windows 7 seems to help a lot too...way less bloated than Vista). All the more reason to make P8 64-bit. For it not to be would be a huge step backwards.

We've discussed this a lot in the 49 page Poser 8 thread.

I will summarize.

SM decided to sell two products, Poser 7 and Poser Pro, one superior to the other at a higher price, instead of a single product at a higher price. Some people think that is stupid.  Some people like to speculate while ignoring evidence that is plain as day.

Here is the evidence - Poser 8 is the next version of Poser 7, not Poser Pro. Unless SM is filled with morons, that must mean that the two product strategy actually generated more revenue, because they are continuing that strategy.

So... if you think they should sell one product, not two, then you're wrong.

OK.

Now unless you have the actual data, feedback, survey results, customer phone calls, etc. that SM has, you really can't make any argument that Poser 8 without 64-bit is a loser. Again, you have to assume they are morons. You don't buy products from morons, right?

OK.

The next version of Poser Pro will have everything that Poser 8 and current Poser Pro has and more. That is the upgrade for current Poser Pro users.

Now some would like to have both - they want to play with Poser 8, but they also want Poser Pro next version for the 64-bit and other high-end goodies. SM will take care of that. You will not have to wonder if you're making a mistake.

OK?

OK.

Quote - In that case, you are looking at paying ZBrush kind of prices for Poser - modellers aren't cheap (apart from the free ones that is obviously)

Just an off topic tidbit here, but if we pay the kind of prices we paid for Zbrush 1, will we get free upgrades two versions later like we do with Zbrush? I paid for Zbrush 1 and got 2 and 3 free! From what I've been hearing over at DAZ, I might be getting version 4 for free as well. Let's hear it for a company who really gives you value for your hard earned dollars!!!

There are so many excellent potential chief marketing officers in the Rendo forums. I can't understand why you're not all recruited to run companies. LOL

No offense.

I'm no marketer, I was only pointing out that From Poser 4 to Poser Pro, I've paid for Zbrush at least Twice by following Poser's upgrade paths, while I've only paid for Zbrush itself just once at it's original Zbrush 1 price. If you find that offends your sensibilities too much I can't help you.

Here we go again.

LostinSpaceman, I was not the least bit offended. Why should I be - I'm not running SM. Nor was I even responding to your post, specifically.

I was being sardonic. Opinions about opinions - that's what a forum is, right?

There have been a ton of posts in the past weeks where one after another person weighs in on how SM should be running their business. If that's fair, then so too is it fair for me to give my opinion that they must have been successful, otherwise why are they still doing the same thing?

I was responding to this:

Quote - I think it would be silly for SM not to develop P8 for 64-bit

Is it silly to make more money than less money?

Sorry but it's also the nature of the forums that when someone replies right after your post, it's often presumed that they are responding to you, especially if they had a post preceeding your own. In anycase, I wasn't responding to you with my remark and you weren't responding to me with yours. I don't see us going here again and I don't recall us going here previously. We're clear now.

I'm chilling, LiSM.

Actually we had cross posted - I didn't even see your Zbrush posting until after I made my little dig about arm-chair CMOs.

Hmmm, I agree that SM is in a better position to decide on marketing two products as opposed to one. They certainly have deeper pockets than I have.

However, I do not think 64-bit rendering makes Poser Pro a marketably distinctive product from Poser 7 or 8. I think render queues and the ability to export work from Poser to high-end applications are the real "Pro" distinctions. Some if not all of those applications have 64-bit rendering, so Poser Pro really does not need it except to get those of us with extra disposable income to buy the Pro version (for 64-bit rendering alone). I cannot imagine that I represent a very large or lucrative portion of the Pro market, but I could be wrong.

Right now, I am excited about Poser 8 because it looks like a great product, and I think it will be successful for SM. Poser 8 will be a very wide beta test for all of these wonderful rendering innovations. So, I can hope that they will be even more refined when they show up in Poser Pro. I will enjoy seeing what others can do with these new features, and read the tutorials with interest.

Eventually, if Poser survives for years to come, the standard version will have 64-bit rendering. I don't animate, and I don't own any of the expensive applications to which one might export Poser work. If nothing else interesting distinguishes Poser Pro from the standard Poser, I will probably downgrade at that time. By the way, just how far off into the future are 128-bit computers with 32 cores, 1,000 T-byte drives, and 64gigs of memory?

lmk

 I could not find it, probably you know: Does anybody know a web page which actually shows benchmarks of 64 bit render engines compared to 32 bit render engines ?

 Found it: 

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,2845,2280808,00.asp

Overall there is no performance gain in 64 bit rendering - this is what I suspected - you can use bigger files thats it

"you can use bigger files thats it"

Not wrong, but not right. If your 32-bit renderer must use virtual memory with a lot of swapping to disk, and your 64-bit render can keep everything in RAM, then the 64-bit renderer will be faster.

But, bigger files is nothing to sneer at. Anyone who has set up a render, and had FireFly crash 1/3 of the way through will greatly appreciate the ability to render scenes that require more memory.

lmk

My only two complaints:

If I buy Poser 8 it will not be 64 bit.  That is exclusively a pro feature, but I would like it a lot if it were not.  To me, this makes regularly upgrading Poser seem less than ideal.

If I buy Poser Pro I have to pay the premium price and still wait while certain features are only available to upgraded Poser users.  To me, this makes regularly upgrading Poser Pro seem less than ideal.

It feels like they are staggering the releases and hoping a percentage of users will feel compelled to buy both.  When you decide to buy a pro version you don't expect to ever be tempted by the regular one again.

 lkendall I agree with you, but so far its the only advantage of 64 bit I see. Actually the benchmarks show that in many  cases 32 bit engines render faster. Apparently this is a operating system problem, but it has not changed with the new windows.