Quote -
hey that's great !!!! thanks
guess I should leave again for awhile so I'm missed :)

LOL, if you want, but you're always welcome back here.  That goes for everyone, not just Dave :P

Although, I miss your "Smokin' Baby" avatar, Dave.

Ok, someone 'splain this to me, please.

ShareCG has been touted as an alternative to hosting at Renderosity (BTW, no one said you had to host your freestuff here to post it in the Freestuff Forum).  Let me see if I have this right.

ShareCG is largely a host, but they do have forums, so they are somewhat community minded.  Also, kudos to them for having a Poser only section on their freestuff.

On the main listing page, there are 7 ads.  One of them is a flash ad, another is a video, and then there is a Google ad listing, with several advertisements.

On the actual download page, there are 8 ads.  Again, a flash ad, and two Google ad listings with several advertisements.

The download button is at the bottom.  Sometimes, you can't see the download button/link because it's below a huge image showing you what you're downloading (which is awesome, IMHO)

There's an FAQ, but not a TOS, so I can't see whether or not they disallow off-site linking in the description area, which many make use of to advertise their products elsewhere, and even add donation buttons to solicit donations.

With me so far?

The only difference I'm seeing is ONE popup window.  One.

So, please tell me what the difference is?

they are insanely slow......

and I can never get auto resume, which is a BIG thing on a 26.4 dialup

Quote - Ok, someone 'splain this to me, please.

ShareCG has been touted as an alternative to hosting at Renderosity (BTW, no one said you had to host your freestuff here to post it in the Freestuff Forum).  Let me see if I have this right.

ShareCG is largely a host, but they do have forums, so they are somewhat community minded.  Also, kudos to them for having a Poser only section on their freestuff.

On the main listing page, there are 7 ads.  One of them is a flash ad, another is a video, and then there is a Google ad listing, with several advertisements.

On the actual download page, there are 8 ads.  Again, a flash ad, and two Google ad listings with several advertisements.

The download button is at the bottom.  Sometimes, you can't see the download button/link because it's below a huge image showing you what you're downloading (which is awesome, IMHO)

There's an FAQ, but not a TOS, so I can't see whether or not they disallow off-site linking in the description area, which many make use of to advertise their products elsewhere, and even add donation buttons to solicit donations.

With me so far?

The only difference I'm seeing is ONE popup window.  One.

So, please tell me what the difference is?

Took me 5 clicks and a scroll to the bottom to get a freebie earlier when I tried it myself.

Quote - Or, so you assume.  The forum userbase is actually a small % of the people that use the site.  That's how it is at most sites.  Not everyone is social.

Case in point.....a good large portion of the posts in the "petition" thread in the freestuff forum is of people who've been members for years...and it's their first post.

Hmmm so a few people complain or say they want something changed and all the people who like it as it is don't say anything so you change it to how the vocal people want it......... doesn't make sense to me. It still would make sense in my opinion to have a poll to see just how many people actually want something and how many don't.

I only go there (ShareCG) from here so I go direct to the DL page. The DL page has the DL link is right there on top before the ads/item's image loads and I click 'cause I know what it looks well enough from the thumbnail here and don't need to see it again. The line of Google ads are text only and they are off to the side, not above the item I want to downdload. The comments are below, not above the item I want to download. So for me, I see a difference between the experiences. - but that's just me. Also, AFAIK, ShareCG has had that design for a while, they didn't just suddenly spring an ad maze on their users. Even if they did, I only joined to thank folks for their items. I feel no sense of loyalty of community there, they don't have a precious spot on my favorites bar so I probably don't care as much what they do. 

Aside from the sites that make you do a faux purchase I can't think offhand of any Poser or 3D related site that requires three pages for a download. Even Poser Club's 2nd page "Your Cockie is OK" is at least unintentionally amusing.

Jen, most of us have been here long enough to know that the mods are not responsible for these decisions. If anything it sounds like this is more a case of them being used as cannon fodder than usual - 'Have a nice weekend. Oh BTW, we totally reamed freestuff so you may get a few complaints. Ta.'. At least Ari Fleischer got to eat at the Whitehouse mess.

It has been stated that dead links in the freebies listing is a serious problem that cannot be resolved by a "report dead link" button because people had misused it in the past to comment about freebies that they didn't like. I have to wonder why the people abusing this weren't warned that they would be banned if they persisted. You have to log on to get freebies, so threatening to ban the idiots would have worked. Instead, we are told that the report dead link button was discontinued because of misuse and that the solution to dead links is to force the freebie up-loaders to use the Renderosity server. 

Excuses, excuses. 

Couple of neutral points about ShareCG (I host my freebies there but I also use Renderosity):

• ShareCG doesn't require registration for Freebie access. 

• ShareCG does not allow off-site linking (although I've seen one person [not me]  try to bypass it and have their "links" via text file kicked off).

• If you know the direct link to the Poser listing (easy enough), you have only one click to get to the download page.

• ShareCG ads are easily distinguishable from freebies to download.

• ShareCG does often load slowly and take a while to download.

• ShareCG's search isn't always reliable or accurate.

• ShareCG does indeed allow donations to PayPal (which would be a nice benefit for posters if anyone actually donated!)

• ShareCG does have an integrated portfolio option.

• ShareCG tracks both views and downloads.

• ShareCG + Renderosity gets a much larger audience than Renderosity alone (assuming that the click-through tracking and download stats are reliable there or here).

Share CG is pretty worthless for up-loaders using a dialup connection unless you are distributing very small files. However, there are a lot of free hosts out there if you search.

Personally, I am opposed to the change in policy at Renderosity that forces hardworking freebie creators to use the Renderosity server for future uploads. I’ve removed my figures from the listings to express my opposition. Any future freebies I may release will be announced in other forums less bent on control and exclusivity. 

Just my observation

• 3 clicks to download a ShareCG freebie

• no scroll down to download a ShareCG freebies

• 4 clicks to download a Rendo freebie (broke the 3 click rule of web design)

• scroll down to find the download button (another broken rule of web design

• 2nd page - rendo ad at the center

• 3rd page - rendo ad at the bottom (inconsistent and confusing to viewer)

Oye...

Changes are good sometimes, but this is ridiculous!

Quote - and finally, the promised land...Althought I think the last page isn't Rendo's fault.

Changes are good sometimes, but this is ridiculous!

I get that too, only problem is, it seems to lag forever.

When I clicked to the last of my sharecg freebie, it just doesn't do anything at all.

I really don't know what to say, other than changes sometimes can't all be good..

JB

Footnote: I did manage to get to my ShareCG freebie, last time it wasn't like that at all.

Actually, there are more pages than that for Renderosity freebies (if you're going to count ShareCG's home page).

• You have the Renderosity home page.
• Then, you have to log in or register (unless you're already logged in).
• Then you have to find and click the freebies link from the menu.

Getting to a list of Poser-only freebies (see below) requires even more work and fiddling around since it's not in the main menu:
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/freestuff/index.php?section_id=1

Quote - Less responses containing irrational "fears" about things not stated by an admin would be awesome, too.  I don't see them in my future, though.

Jen, I wasn't even talking to you, I was talking to Dave-so and MikeJ.

Quote -

Jen, I wasn't even talking to you, I was talking to Dave-so and MikeJ.

So can I count you in with the knee-jerk crowd who didn't understand what I had been proposing and assumed I meant everyone should be charged? ;-)

The suggestion I had made was considerably different from Dave-so's brief statement here and can't be put into the same category. Certainly not worthy of a One Size Fits All snide reply.

I prefer the older style Free Stuff page.

 I literally don't have a dog in this fight. I don't like to upload any freebies offsite anyway, which is one reason why I have my own site, so I just post download links in the Freestuff Forum here at Rendo and the Freepository forum at DAZ.

As for Rendo's new policy, I don't see why everyone is whining so much. Rendo's offering free hosting, and free advertising to it's own vendors. And there's a simple fix for creators who want a link to their sites. Rendo can just add the link to the site in the freebie information.

I wouldn't worry about  the lazy people who want the down load in one click or less. They either want the freebie or not.  Same thing when I go to sites where I have to register. If I want the freebie bad enough, I register. If not, I don't.

But then again, that's just my thinking.

Quote - I only go there (ShareCG) from here so I go direct to the DL page. The DL page has the DL link is right there on top before the ads/item's image loads and I click 'cause I know what it looks well enough from the thumbnail here and don't need to see it again. The line of Google ads are text only and they are off to the side, not above the item I want to downdload. The comments are below, not above the item I want to download. So for me, I see a difference between the experiences. - but that's just me. Also, AFAIK, ShareCG has had that design for a while, they didn't just suddenly spring an ad maze on their users. Even if they did, I only joined to thank folks for their items. I feel no sense of loyalty of community there, they don't have a precious spot on my favorites bar so I probably don't care as much what they do. 

Aside from the sites that make you do a faux purchase I can't think offhand of any Poser or 3D related site that requires three pages for a download. Even Poser Club's 2nd page "Your Cockie is OK" is at least unintentionally amusing.

Jen, most of us have been here long enough to know that the mods are not responsible for these decisions. If anything it sounds like this is more a case of them being used as cannon fodder than usual - 'Have a nice weekend. Oh BTW, we totally reamed freestuff so you may get a few complaints. Ta.'. At least Ari Fleischer got to eat at the Whitehouse mess.

Ok, all good points, and I forgot about the folder renaming (which Jani is DEFINITELY determined to fix), and the download button being down below (another thing Jani is determined to have fixed.)  My hope is the extra redundant popup window will be removed as well.  Other than that, here's the thought process:
You want to share your freestuff everywhere.  You can host it here, link to the actual page the free item is on (For instance, if I wanted to directly share my DS lights, I'd link to here), and voila.  Yes, people have to register (tried it in 3 different browsers), I don't think they're going to remove that. 

Quote - It has been stated that dead links in the freebies listing is a serious problem that cannot be resolved by a "report dead link" button because people had misused it in the past to comment about freebies that they didn't like. I have to wonder why the people abusing this weren't warned that they would be banned if they persisted. You have to log on to get freebies, so threatening to ban the idiots would have worked. Instead, we are told that the report dead link button was discontinued because of misuse and that the solution to dead links is to force the freebie up-loaders to use the Renderosity server. 

Excuses, excuses. 

Actually, no, please don't intentionally or unintentionally misquote me.  I stated that it's annoying when people misuse the report button on images.  Most of the misuse happens because of people misunderstanding the intention of the button, or not having a firm grasp of the english language.  Neither of which are TOS violations.  It's not against the TOS to annoy the staff.  If it were, you have NO idea how many people would have hit their 3 strikes by now.  
Joking aside, not everyone who misuses things around here are idiots.  Very few are. 

Quote - Couple of neutral points about ShareCG (I host my freebies there but I also use Renderosity):

• ShareCG doesn't require registration for Freebie access. 

• ShareCG does not allow off-site linking (although I've seen one person [not me]  try to bypass it and have their "links" via text file kicked off).

• If you know the direct link to the Poser listing (easy enough), you have only one click to get to the download page.

• ShareCG ads are easily distinguishable from freebies to download.

• ShareCG does often load slowly and take a while to download.

• ShareCG's search isn't always reliable or accurate.

• ShareCG does indeed allow donations to PayPal (which would be a nice benefit for posters if anyone actually donated!)

• ShareCG does have an integrated portfolio option.

• ShareCG tracks both views and downloads.

• ShareCG + Renderosity gets a much larger audience than Renderosity alone (assuming that the click-through tracking and download stats are reliable there or here).

Again, all good points.  I'll try to answer them point by point, if I have one.

Like I said in the last post, I don't think the registration necessity is going to change.

We DO.  In the Descriptions, if you have an off-site version of your freestuff item (at least for now, this is the only way), you can input the html that leads to it: YourDescriptionHere

If you're at the freestuff page, hit the drop-down menu, and pick Poser.  Poser page loads, you're done. 

Duly noted

That's true, and that's a huge complaint about them, and has been brought up in this thread.  We're an alternative. 

To be honest, our search isn't the most accurate.  I'm in the middle of a tutorial on how to get the most out of using the Renderosity Search Engine, but, well, I've been testing some video software so I can make both a regular HTML tutorial and a video one.  ADD + New software = Time Suck.

I don't see why the Freestuff Team wouldn't allow a donate button, since most sites have one.  I know it's frustrating that folks don't use them, but, well, you're giving them an option, and most people opt for the easy way, which is not clicking donate.  I know that, in the past, a freebie has lead me to buying something from the creator if they are a merchant, so, if that's any consolation, I know I'm not alone in doing that.

We technically have a portfolio.  It's called Your Homepage.  It links to your gallery, your freestuff, videos, tutorials, and blog posts (if you have any), your gallery, your store (if you have one) and wishlist, and a way to contact you (sitemail).  YMMV

Yes, both track, but you want to be careful calculating.  If you plug your shareCG download into Renderosity, and both track 1 download, it's still only 1 download.  I know a few people that actually count it as two.  It's like saying "I handed a dollar to Steve to get me a cheeseburger, and I expected change for a $2".  It doesn't work that way.

If you advertise yourself, you're going to have a bigger audience base, there's no doubt about it.  Wherever you host.    I have little time to advertise, lol, so my audience base is about 10.

Quote - Share CG is pretty worthless for up-loaders using a dialup connection unless you are distributing very small files. However, there are a lot of free hosts out there if you search.

Personally, I am opposed to the change in policy at Renderosity that forces hardworking freebie creators to use the Renderosity server for future uploads. I’ve removed my figures from the listings to express my opposition. Any future freebies I may release will be announced in other forums less bent on control and exclusivity. 

I've stated at least 3 times in this thread that the freestuff forum is STILL open for off-site links.  Jani has stated that she wants off-site links back in the initial upload, so we'll see how that goes on Monday.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2779898&page=5#message_3507279

BS.   You directly quoted BobbyStahr, in this post.

Is Grandma still plugged in?

Just checking.

:)

Well, she was last night when I called her to wish her a happy birthday, and I'll make it up to her by taking her out to a nice restaurant when the car gets fixed :lol:

Quote - Ok, so now it's greedy to give free hosting?

Now c'mon Jen, that was disingenuous... nobody's bitching about the free hosting aspect of it.

I'll grant you that you only hear the regulars (and a few lurkers) bitching about the whole change... but long-term, monitoring the hit counts may be more useful. If the count slows down, plateaus, or even takes a negative trajectory? Then you know you (err, the company, not you) screwed up.

'course, we can all see the counts as well, courtesy of Alexa and a number of other public hit monitors.

Quote - ShareCG is largely a host, but they do have forums, so they are somewhat community minded.  Also, kudos to them for having a Poser only section on their freestuff.

Yep. And their hit count (according to Alexa) is rising nicely, while Renderosity's has been, well, dropping... (kinda explains the move by RO now, don't it?)

Quote - On the actual download page, there are 8 ads.  Again, a flash ad, and two Google ad listings with several advertisements.

...and? The big problem isn't the ads (which are out-of-the-way), it's the three-page click-through that you have to put up with here. On sharecg, you find the item, and go to its download page. You click one button (yes, it is easy to find and always in the same place), and the user gets the item.

Also, sharecg makes no bones about advertising - they said from the start that they support themselves that way. RO has ads... but nobody bitched about them either... until RO has managed to shove ads into an area that folks usually associate with freebie items, likely in the hope of accidental click-throughs - and the multiple ads-in-your-face on the other two windows you get to click through.

Incidentally, Mike keeps mentioning AdBlock. Well, that's nice, but I leave it open on sites I actually haunt frequently - sometimes you find something neat that way. Also, not everyone has Firefox (not advocating for IE, Safari, Chrome, Opera, etc... just stating cold fact here).

Now I will grant that the dial-up users may have a rotten time of it (but then, we're talking multi-MB files here... dial-up would suck in this hobby no matter where you go to feed your CG fix).

Anyrate, them's today's two rubles.

Good morning ... days and nights sure pass by rather quickly :)
I see the discussion is still on ... hopefully Monday will bring some enlightenment to the issues that have befallen us.

Point: I dislike ShareCG as a place to downooad freebies...and the other file hosting sites as well. Call me lazy, or maybe impatient, or maybe I like to keep things simple and straighforward, but dislike none the less. I do understand the hosts need to make revenue somehow, and posting advertisements is their only recourse, OR, charging a fee if you want quicker downloads and less intrusiveness. Thus the thought about a fee here at Rendo. Free free is good, but if you want more zing you pay the bling. Simple.
I'm sure a lot of folks would agree with  fee..they pay an extra $5 per month now to upload more images per day...and being able to upload 3 versus 1 per day doesn't seem to be that much of a draw for me persoanlly , but it is obviously a good thing for others. I would not pay a fee to have easier or better free downloads either..I'm cheap. Just bringing up the possibilities.

I sit at work using a very none user friendly program all day that requires me to use the mouse click about 10,000 times a day more than I should have to. Probably why having , OH MY GOD !! 3 more mouse clicks, makes me a bit crazy. So its a personal thing with me. I realize most of you do not have this mouse click thing looming over your head. I'm sorry to bring this personal dilemma into the fray. Please forgive me. I know not what I have wrought.

sob sob ... anyhow, no matter what, here we are, and most of us will stay here, and do an extra 3 clicks, and use Rendo to upload free items , hosted right here, for no fee, link to other free stuff in the freestuff forum, some will take their toys and leave after stompling about a bit, and all will be good in Renderosityville.

Quote -
sob sob ... anyhow, no matter what, here we are, and most of us will stay here, and do an extra 3 clicks, and use Rendo to upload free items , hosted right here, for no fee, link to other free stuff in the freestuff forum, some will take their toys and leave after stompling about a bit, and all will be good in Renderosityville.

For those here now, sure. The majority will complain then get back to it like typical proletariat.

OTOH, I think I'll be very picky about using the freebie page here if this stays in place. For months, it was the only reason I bothered showing up - especially during those times when I needed some oddball item; the Freebie page was a great place to do a bit of hunting and pecking to find it.

Now? Meh.

But I sincerely doubt that the PTB are shaking in their boots over me. The ones they need to worry about are the ones who fell off the hit-counts over the past few months, and I don't see how making it harder to get freebies is going to pull that curve back up...

I run off a slow dialup link, so I bookmark the direct links to the pages I want to look at and avoid anything else. I dont tend to look at rendo freestuff page anymore because of the huge delays in loading and the terrible search function.

I havent had problems on sharecg except a few times it has seemed to be dead. If I want a large freebie I need to go to another place and use a faster link. Any file downloads are a major pain because of the 15 minute trip , hope the library system is up, hope the flash drive hasn't been blocked again , do the download, copy it to flashdrive , test its still intact , etc etc etc.  

Another couple pages doesnt seem like much , maybe if you have cable or DSL but at an average 28.8 with a 2.7Kbps transfer rate , it moves from yes I want that to, oh well, not gonna waste 10 minutes. 

" Actually, no, please don't intentionally or unintentionally misquote me. I stated that it's annoying when people misuse the report button on images

I went back and verified that you brought up reasons for why a gallery report button wasn't a great solution. You were responding to a poster who had suggested a ' report dead link’ button for freebies, so my apologies for misunderstanding. I didn’t intend to misquote you.   

The freestuff forum, of course, is an inferior means of listing freestuff. The annoucements scroll off the board, nothing is categorized and so on. I hope new off-site freestuff is allowed again in the freestuff listings.

Why not just create a sticky at the top of this forum just for the placement of free stuff:

The Official Poser Free Stuff Thread

Like those other stickies.
People can make a post with a picture and a link to either their free stuff item here or at their own domain. If here, then the link has to go to the bottom of the clickfest hieracrchy. If on theirs or another domain, straight to a direct download, not a page, but to a direct zip or rar or whatever file:
 
My new crappy free thing, here's the link:
hllp://www.MyCrapDomain.com.net.org/FreeStuff/Trite/Redundant/Vickies/Sword#124589.zip"

People making superfluous posts or making posts with irrelevant commentary will have their posts removed, as will those who break the rules by not linking correctly.
Yeah, I know there's a rule currently against making free stuff posts in the Poser Forum, and yeah I know (now) that there's an official Free Stuff forum, but this would place much of it in one neat location, while not cluttering up the forum.

Of course, I fully expect this idea to be ignored, in spite of how good it is. ;-)

Quote -
Yeah, I know there's a rule currently against making free stuff posts in the Poser Forum

Hmmm, glad you mentioned this as I was totally ignorant of this rule. I shall abide henceforth, however.

Quote -

Hmmm, glad you mentioned this as I was totally ignorant of this rule. I shall abide henceforth, however.

Well don't take what I said verbatim. I lost track of the original...errr.. discussion about it here in the forum and I'm not sure of the particulars. I think it's OK to ask something like, "What sword is this?", or "Who made this temple?" and for someone to answer, but not to make posts blatantly advertising one's free or non-free stuff or the merchandise of others or other sites.

There have been many of what I felt were violations of that rule, which didn't get deleted, so I think they made some sort of concession along the way.

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - Less responses containing irrational "fears" about things not stated by an admin would be awesome, too.  I don't see them in my future, though.

Jen, I wasn't even talking to you, I was talking to Dave-so and MikeJ.

BS.   You directly quoted BobbyStahr, in this post.

Two things.  First, I tell you again that Jenifer Carey said the same thing.  Second, the post you replied to wasn't even on that track.  Since you and MikeJ both seem to have problems following a threaded conversation, I encourage you both to calm down and review.

MikeJ:

Quote - So can I count you in with the knee-jerk crowd who didn't understand what I had been proposing and assumed I meant everyone should be charged? ;-)

The suggestion I had made was considerably different from Dave-so's brief statement here and can't be put into the same category. Certainly not worthy of a One Size Fits All snide reply.

MikeJ, this was what you said:
"I suggested that a few months ago in the CC Forum. Not exactly that, but something very similar..."

So "something very similar" means "considerably different"?  Okey doke.

I really grew out of this bullshit excessive quoting and remind people of what they said earlier, many years ago.  I guess next time you need a reminder I'll give you a picture of kitten or something instead.

Quote -
MikeJ, this was what you said:
"I suggested that a few months ago in the CC Forum. Not exactly that, but something very similar..."

So "something very similar" means "considerably different"?  Okey doke.

Yeah and with my very next post I went and explained it in more detail.
If you want to take one comment and use it for your purpose of being an ass, that's your problem, not mine.
So don't give me that "problems following a threaded conversation" bullshit just to cover up your own mistakes.

Since I'm sure every word will be monitored and analyzed, I shouldn't say "mistakes". I should have said your inability or unwillingness to acknowledge when a correction or an elaboration has been made.

MikeJ:

Quote - Yeah and with my very next post I went and explained it in more detail.
If you want to take one comment and use it for your purpose of being an ass, that's your problem, not mine.
So don't give me that "problems following a threaded conversation" bullshit just to cover up your own mistakes.

Since I am not able to travel through time, and your very next post appeared after I had left the computer, that's what happens in a threaded conversation Mike.

take it into sitemail chaps. we don't want this thread locked do we? lets keep the thread civil.

Quote - Ok, someone 'splain this to me, please.

ShareCG has been touted as an alternative to hosting at Renderosity (BTW, no one said you had to host your freestuff here to post it in the Freestuff Forum).  Let me see if I have this right.

With me so far?

The only difference I'm seeing is ONE popup window.  One.

So, please tell me what the difference is?

Rendo never renigged on paying out cash for downloads!! SNAP!

Quote -
Since I am not able to travel through time, and your very next post appeared after I had left the computer, that's what happens in a threaded conversation Mike.

No, but you made the "I was replying to Dave-so and MikeJ" comment long after my comment had been posted. Were it me, I would have added something to the effect acknowledging that a change - an elaboration, rather - had been made, to avoid this very thing right here.

But I'm really not into arguing about it. If you want to, go ahead, I'm just blowing it off.

so much for keeping it civil.

Ok, can we get back to the point where everyone is mad at Renderosity?

Oh, and next post I have to flag for language, folks, no matter who you are, you're going to get a warning.  I figure I've been fair enough with the "hey, please flag it" posts, I shouldn't need to post a reminder every page.

It's civil, Kaibach.

Quote -
I figure I've been fair enough with the "hey, please flag it" posts, I shouldn't need to post a reminder every page.

Sorry about that, if you're referring to me.
Why don't they just put in a word filter here? Every other family-oriented site I know of has one. And if the naughty words are going to be allowed with a flag, why not just allow them period?
It really doesn't make any sense if you think about it, to conditionally allow "adult" words as long as a flag is there. If the naughty words might be offensive to someone, they're going to be offensive, flag or no, and if it's acknowledged that flagging is a problem, while the words are allowed, either the flags should go or the words should be filtered out.

Well, because you're responsible for what you post, regardless.  Plus, word filters are really annoying, for everyone involved.  Case in point?  Chat.  ;)

Plus, is it really that hard to click the flag when you still have to scroll down to get to the submit button?