Having used Daz3d Studio for a couple of years now I am thinking of making the jump from free package to paying for the full "more professional" version.  The question I had was do I go for the Daz3D Studio Advanced package or Poser 8?  Which is better (or is it really a matter of taste?) What is the difference.  Thanks for any input.

If you are accustomed to Daz Studio and that workflow, you might find Poser's workflow awkward and cumbersome. I have both programmes and I've invested most of my energy into Poser so I am comfortable with Poser's workflow. They are not at all alike.
There are things Poser does better ... same goes for DS.

All things considered, if you learn interfaces quickly, you can get Poser 7 at CP for $70 atm. That's an incredible deal. Poser 8 is $125. Nice thing with Poser is: no plugins... well, none that you will need to pay heaps for. DS tend to nickel-and-dime-ya: that's their business plan. Poser 8 is a complete product. Prices are competitive.

Oh no, not again.... ;o).

Do a search - this particular topic has been discussed (and argued) many, many times before.

Laurie

I prefer Poser, but then, I started with Poser 4. I have Studio too, not Pro but with some Plugins. Both have advatages and disadvantages.And Laurie is right, we have some threads with this subject, if you do a search you will find some helpfull arguments.

RobynsVeil wrote;**
***Nice thing with Poser is: no plugins... well, none that you will need to pay heaps for. DS tend to nickel-and-dime-ya: that's their business plan.

*Not since DAZ Studio Advanced came out.

RobynsVeil wrote;
Poser 8 is a complete product.

So is DAZ Studio Advanced.

Coldrake

If I have DAZ Studio advanced how much more do I need to pay to be able to set up cloth motion into the models I create?

I use both Daz 3 and Poser Pro and am comfortable with both. There are a lot of things that Poser does better but it took me a long time to finally learn how to use it. I'd suggest you maybe download a trial of Poser 8 just to kind of test it out. That might help you make your decision.

Quote - If I have DAZ Studio advanced how much more do I need to pay to be able to set up cloth motion into the models I create?

There is no price to do that in DSA, because DSA cannot do it.

Since Poser 5 if I want cloth motion I just import an OBJ or load a prop and switch to the Poser cloth room and I'm good to go. How is it done in DAZ Studio?

It's an eternal question ... Personnaly i prefer poser and his material room :-)

Quote - Since Poser 5 if I want cloth motion I just import an OBJ or load a prop and switch to the Poser cloth room and I'm good to go. How is it done in DAZ Studio?

You need Optitex and some tools that DAZ haven't released.

http://www.optitexsmb.co.uk/servlet/StoreFront

Optitex is only available in the UK apparently. Anyone in the UK able to access the page and tell me the price?

So is DAZ holding the monopoly on dynamic clothing models for Studio then? How many items are currently available?

Quote - http://www.optitexsmb.co.uk/servlet/StoreFront

Optitex is only available in the UK apparently. Anyone in the UK able to access the page and tell me the price?

So is DAZ holding the monopoly on dynamic clothing models for Studio then? How many items are currently available?

yes, to the best of my knowledge "Only" Daz3D sells any Dynamic Clothes for use with Daz Studio Dynamics. If you want anything more than the very basic then you have to buy the Dynamic Controls as well:

http://www.daz3d.com/i/3d-models/-/dynamic-clothing-control?item=9032&_m=d

It looks like 16 for Vicky 4, 1 Tablecloth and nothing for any other Daz Figure.
Dynamic Clothing for DAZ Studio
http://www.daz3d.com/i/shop/catbrowse?cat=935&_m=d

With DS3 advanced, it isn't possible  (yet) to use your own dynamic clothes. Only dynamic clothes that are sold at the DAZ website can be used. DS3 itself, has only some basic functionality to use the dynamic clothes, for more advanced use you have to buy a plug-in.
Daz is working on a plug-in to make your own dynamic clothes (at least they promised) but the release date is DAZ-soon, which can be between one week and 2 years.
DS3 advanced isn't a bad program although I prefer Poser8 and Poserpro.

Things I really like in DAZ is "puppeteer" (not the same as puppetmaster!) which allows you make a kind of inbetween pose with two different poses, morphfollower which deletes all the poke-troughs with conforming clothing, even when the clothes doesn't have the right morphs for it, and the library.

There are also a lot of animation plug-ins, that are great for animation and what I like much more than poser are the figure-setup tools although they come with a big price tag.

What I don't like in DAZ is the lack of dynamic hair, and I don't like the interface but I think that's my personal taste, because I'm used with the poser interface for over ten years.

DS3 advanced has a lot of potential, but to get the same functionality as poser 8, you have to so many plug-ins that the price is more than poser pro. And although DS3 is also 64bit, it doesn't have separate rendering like poserpro has.

best regards,

Bopper.

Quote - http://www.optitexsmb.co.uk/servlet/StoreFront

Optitex is only available in the UK apparently. Anyone in the UK able to access the page and tell me the price?

The price of the only item at that link is £999
This looks like a cut down version of the Optitex tools (judging by the .com site), so as usual the fact that they don't specify any prices on the main site should be enough to tell you that the other toolsets are going to cost several $k.

Quote - So is DAZ holding the monopoly on dynamic clothing models for Studio then?

They're still trying to figure out how they can release "Hobbiest" priced tools without affecting Optitex's "Professional" market.
Also currently there are only Windows versions available, with Mac and 64-bit stuck at the planning stage.

If you only wanted the ability to create garments from "pattern" like pieces, then Maya's cloth (and possibly C4D's) work in that way.

Poser 4 was the version of Poser publicly available while the first version of DS was being developed.  As a result, DS only maintains P4 compatibility to this day.  They technologically diverge from there.

DAZ Studio is the reason body handles for skirts and dresses are still in use.  IMHO, DS has retarded the acceptance of the best Poser technical advancement since Poser 4.  They probably don't think a lot about it over at DAZ, but I'm certain they are aware of it.

Consider this:  How much dynamic cloth has been available in DAZ's store since P5 was released several years ago?  Do you think there would be more dynamic cloth available in DAZ's store if DAZ's own posing and rendering platform had the ability to "clothify?"  And if dynamic cloth were the norm in DAZ's store, how long would it be before dynamic cloth were the norm in the community overall?

so DAZ is singlehandedly holding back poser dynamic cloth production from content creators? Sorry I disagree. Dynamic cloth came out before DAZ studio was released and really well before Studio became popular (and DAZ to this day still doesn't require studio support from merchants whom they broker), and in all that time it never really made major inroads in the marketplace at any store (and those who have released dynamic content have reported lackluster sales). It has nothing to do with DAZ, and everything to do with the fact dynamic cloth is very time consuming to use, Most users want quick results, which generally means conformers. Not saying that there isn't a place for dynamics in our market, but if most users want speed than the demand isn't going to be enough to really support a robust market until using dynamic clothing approaches conformers in speed.

"And if dynamic cloth were the norm in DAZ's store, how long would it be before dynamic cloth were the norm in the community overall?" 

I'm sure there's some truth to that. OTOH, it ignores another factor, the perception (real or imagined) that DC is hard to use, which has IMO limited demand. I may be wrong but I don't think there's hasn't been a flood of DC here or anywhere else either. If there were a huge demand for dynamics, one would think that vendors would seek to meet it, whether Daz was or not.  There's always a chicken and egg factor involved in the marketplace but I'm leery of the notion that if only vendors provided something, people would all buy it. IMO, It's never that simple.

Hi, Will.  Nice to see you here.  ;-)

I hope nobody takes what I'm saying as disrespect for DAZ Studio or DAZ.  I use DAZ Studio and Poser, both.  I admire Dan and the folks at DAZ, and to a certain degree, credit them with the community's survival.  But, I also believe DAZ has the greatest influence on technology adoption in the community and I think dynamic cloth is a good example to demonstrate that theory.

DAZ has stated that they recognize the importance of the ability to clothify so merchants can make dynamic cloth for DAZ studio and that they are working to make it happen.  If I'm reading correctly, you believe dynamic cloth has not been more widely adopted because it takes more time to use and is more complex, and that DAZ's lack of dynamic clothing in their own product line (and store) has little or nothing to do with it.  It stands to reason, then, that DAZ will not start carrying more dynamic cloth items in their store once the ability is available in DAZ Studio.  I don't believe that at all.

I personally believe DAZ will start carrying a ton of dynamic clothing items in their store as soon as DAZ Studio can utilize them.  I also think this will spread here to Renderosity and that the community will experience a conversion process whereby dresses and skirts are typically rendered using dynamic cloth.  I believe DAZ's influence is far more powerful than how much time it takes to accomplish something in a render, or even how complex a feature is to use. 

Maybe I'm wrong.  We won't know for sure until DAZ Studio includes the ability.  It's something they have made clear they want to do.

Quote - I'm sure there's some truth to that. OTOH, it ignores another factor, the perception (real or imagined) that DC is hard to use, which has IMO limited demand. I may be wrong but I don't think there's hasn't been a flood of DC here or anywhere else either.

My theory is based on a personal belief that if DAZ were not in the middle of developing a dynamic clothless DAZ Studio when Poser 5 with dynamic clothing was released, DAZ would have adopted a much more pro-dynamic clothing posture in their product line and store when P5 was released, and that as a result, dynamic cloth for dresses and skirts would be the norm today.

Of course, if my personal belief about that is wrong, then my theory goes out the window.  And even if my personal belief is right, it doesn't matter, because it's all water under the bridge now.

well I think of it like GI, both Poser 8 and Studio Advanced now have methods of doing images using GI, but do we see a lot of images in the galleries using it? No, and why not? my guess is because of much longer render times. even if a solution is better and more realistic doesn't mean it will take over the market, ease of use and time spent are still huge factors in our market.

Quote - well I think of it like GI, both Poser 8 and Studio Advanced now have methods of doing images using GI, but do we see a lot of images in the galleries using it? No, and why not? my guess is because of much longer render times. even if a solution is better and more realistic doesn't mean it will take over the market, ease of use and time spent are still huge factors in our market.

Ah, the rare and elusive "Make Art" button.

Quote - > Quote - well I think of it like GI, both Poser 8 and Studio Advanced now have methods of doing images using GI, but do we see a lot of images in the galleries using it? No, and why not? my guess is because of much longer render times. even if a solution is better and more realistic doesn't mean it will take over the market, ease of use and time spent are still huge factors in our market.

Ah, the rare and elusive "Make Art" button.

I'm not immune to it either, after all I still use pre-made poses and such to save time, and won't buy a product without DS mat presets. if "make it easy for me" wasn't a huge market half the products in the stores might not exist.

Daz' dominant position in the marketplace certainly has an influence, not unlike Microsoft. You're probably correct in saying that Daz could have pushed the market for DC to some extent, but I'm skeptical as to just how much. For one thing, they rely to some extent on independent creators who wouldn’t buy into the plan unless they saw a profit – chicken and egg again.

It takes more than marketing and even technical excellence though to drive the adoption of a new technology. Without widespread availability of broadband, no internet video on demand. As wdupre points out, performance is a factor, along with ease of use. Faster computers will take care of the former. As to ease of use, Daz DC may be limited, but those limits also mean, AFAIK, more of a point and click solution that may appeal to a broader audience. If that is the case, then it will succeed, not because of Daz dominance, but because it meets the needs of more typical users. Of course, it will be imperative that they get an affordable creation application in order to provide a sufficient supply of clothing.

The Poser market is in some ways like the Windows/Linux divide. The majority of people probably prefer what they perceive as an easier solution, despite any limitations it may impose. A smaller number are willing to take the time to learn a more challenging environment that they feel is superior. At some point, things that are less used like dynamic hair and clothing and animation will probably become more mainstream, but they will have to become more accessible and efficient. If Daz achieves that goal first then their market share will increase but I don’t think that they will be a significant threat to Poser – at least in the near term.
 

I'll just ask again, because I think it really makes my point.

Does anybody here believe DAZ will put more dynamic cloth items in its own store if DAZ Studio has the ability to use them?

If the answer is yes, there is nothing to disagree about.  It would mean that DAZ has stunted the adoption of dynamic cloth by not promoting its use in its own store over the years, not because it isn't good or because it is too complicated, but because DAZ Studio couldn't do it.

Considering DAZ had done almost no promotion of dynamic cloth until its own plug-in could do a few very specific models, and then DAZ promoted it through its own store (and forums) heavily, my conclusions shouldn't seem radical.

to be balanced, they promoted dynamic cloth in studio in the same way they promoted every new major feature of their software, they put as much if not more promotion into AniMate for example. and its not like they are flooding their own store with Studio dynamic clothing even though they have the monopoly on production right now, which would definitely be something they would do if your theory was accurate.

That's true, Will.  They aren't promoting it more than other new Studio features.

I see our disagreement as one of degree, not necessarily substance. Content Paradise has Poser dynamic clothing as do Rendosity and RDNA. Together they represent a not insubstantial marketplace.  Are so tied to Daz that they won't try DC (and then demand it if it meets their needs) until Daz gives it's stamp of approval? Are vendors so tied to Daz that they are ignoring a potential market? It seems that it's always something holding Poser back, users clinging to old features holding it back, Daz holding it back, vendors holding it back. Maybe if blame needs to be laid, Poser's succession of foster parents should come in for a share as well.

As I see it, the responsibility for creating interest and uptake of new Poser features lies with Poser's owners. If they had made a large quantity of free or nearly free DC content available from the beginning perhaps things might be different, but we'll never know. Daz would be foolish to have given up any substantial revenue for years in order to wait for their own product (which is still a gamble) to appear. If nothing else, the two markets (Poser and Studio) seem so distinct that they could market Poser's DC without hurting their own. Maybe they are in fact more in tune with the majority of their 'make art' customers and judged that Poser's DC was a bridge too far, so they set about creating what they felt would be a simpler (i.e. better selling) product. Mere minimally informed speculation on motive I admit but it makes more sense to me. I'm reminded of a quote by the late William F. Buckley.

"The fallacy," I said, "is the assumption that you can infer subjective intention from objective consequence: we lost China to the Communists, therefore the President of the United States and the Secretary of State wished China to go to the Communists."

Sometimes things are just destined to be.  

Good points, lmckenzie.  And I must compliment you on finding a way to throw a Buckley quote into mix.  :-)

Quote - If nothing else, the two markets (Poser and Studio) seem so distinct that they could market Poser's DC without hurting their own.

I think perhaps that statement makes what I've been trying to say more clear than anything I wrote myself.  If DAZ were to market DC prior to DAZ Studio having the ability to utilize it, it is in essence telling their potential customers that their competitor's product does something they think is really neat, but their own software cannot do it.

Endorsing your competitor's advantage is not something typically taught in Marketing 101.  But, DAZ does think DC is an advantage, or they wouldn't be working to give DC in Studio similar functionality to that in Poser.

Chuckle - I didn't always agree with WFB's politics but he was a gentleman and a scholar.

"...essence telling their potential customers that their competitor's product does something they think is really neat, but their own software cannot do it."* 

My point is that there are **two **markets. I don't know if Daz created DS with hopes of taking down Poser, quite a tall order. Perhaps they looked at the serial ownership changes and sought to ensure that there would even be an application for their content should Poser crater. Regardless, if the online commentary is any reflection of reality (always a dangerous assumption) then there is not a lot of overlap between Poser and DS. A few people use both but probably one much more than the other. Beyond that is a chasm of disdain or 'can't get used to the interface' perplexity. I bet the DS users break out pretty much the same way.

If you look at the marketing, SM has full page ads in Computer Graphics World, touting Poser's power along side the big boys. Daz does the 'Hey, everybody can do 3D art' thing. While they (Daz) continue to add power to DS, they seem focused on the more casual, less technically inclined folks who buy much of their canned content. SM by contrast seem more desirous of the higher end hobbyist and hoping to snag as many Max/Maya etc. users with the promise of an easier figure workflow. I think cool, and yes fun features like AniBlocks are an example. In fairness. Daz has had the benefit of seeing Poser and being able to rethink things that had become stagnant in an application that was long overdue for a rewrite.

Absent smoking gun emails where Daz has rejected DC offerings from their independent vendors, I assume that they chose not to spend their own money on creating it because they thought it wouldn't sell to the majority of their customer base. Again, they are not the only game in town either. Given the virtually nil cost of maintaining additional inventory in a virtual marketplace and zero creation cost with independent vendors, why would Rendo et al not pick up the ball that Daz supposedly dropped and laugh all the way to the bank?

Daz has created something that they feel will appeal to DS users. Did those folks see DC in Poser and demand it, quite possibly, but no doubt the vast majority of them have been willing to wait for it to appear 'Daz soon,' rather than jumping ship. By the same token, Poser users may see something they like in DS and clamor for it, but they aren't going to desert to any significant degree. IMO, there was no Machiavellian plot here, just a simple matter of not trying to create a market that wasn't going anywhere fast regardless. I would give more credence to darker motives if Daz weren't primarily content sellers - who knows if they will ever get a significant part of their revenue from DS? Their primary mission is to ensure that our Goddess Vicky becomes omnipresent in every temple, irrespective of application or architecture - may it be so.

At any rate, I've far exceeded my quota for bloviation, much as I enjoy it. BTW, I just downloaded your V4 platform slides. They look really cool and if it hadn't been for this thread, I wouldn't have seen them :-)

You probably have hit the nail on the head lmckenzie - I think D|S was created primarily as a hedge against Poser's demise more than anything else.

As someone who doesn't  use dynamic clothing, I must say that it doesn't bother me that D|S doesn't use it much as of yet; however, it's not because I don't want to use it, it's because I just prefer to try and get a handle on one thing at a time in Poser. I'm still trying to learn the ins and outs of Poser's nodes (maddening), but dynamics is definitely next on the list ;o).

I for one use Poser because it's what I'm used to. I have DSA, but haven't really delved into it yet. But having used Poser on and off since version 4, the interface is more familiar to me. And it took me a long time to get used to it ;o). Much as I love the program, the interface isn't the friendliest in the world...lol. If it were more like Vue's interface, I'd never leave the computer ;o).

Laurie

While I would personally like to continue my unabashed thread derailment, I'll be generous to disinterested parties and attempt brevity.

Quote - Chuckle - I didn't always agree with WFB's politics but he was a gentleman and a scholar.

I loved the way his eyes would get a tick and open wider sometimes while he was talking.  He exuded intelligence.

Quote - My point is that there are **two **markets. I don't know if Daz created DS with hopes of taking down Poser, quite a tall order. Perhaps they looked at the serial ownership changes and sought to ensure that there would even be an application for their content should Poser crater.

Unrelated but interesting trivia:  Prior to CL, Poser was being developed by Fractal Design and then Metacreations.  Carrara is derived from Ray Dream Studio, which was also developed by Fractal Design and Metacreations.

Laurie, maybe you are right.  Maybe DAZ developed DS out of concern that the community would die, because it knew P5 was going to be buggy, Curious Labs was going to abandon Poser and the market was in danger of evaporating as a result.  Or, maybe Dan's introduction of DS here while the CL staff was getting blown out (including Cooper) was smartly taking advantage of an opportune moment to be the savior, instead of just the businessman who took action some months before when he learned the next version of Poser was going to include either Renderosity or Content Paradise built into the software in a manner similar to the way Microsoft built Internet Explorer into Windows.

It could be that when your former technology partner tries to steal your market, you try to steal theirs in return.  A businessman who thinks that way might also recognize that giving it away free could be a good vertical marketing approach to draw more potential customers into his store.  That may be why we have DAZ Studio, in addition to it being about ensuring the market's survival.

Quote - I would give more credence to darker motives if Daz weren't primarily content sellers - who knows if they will ever get a significant part of their revenue from DS? Their primary mission is to ensure that our Goddess Vicky becomes omnipresent in every temple, irrespective of application or architecture - may it be so.

'
Heh...  (applause)  Where she goes, may we follow.

Nah.  I don't see anything DAZ is doing or has done as being "darker motives."  I see it as being good business, which is what we can expect from Dan.

Thanks for the pleasant and civil exchange, lmckenzie.  You are a fun read.