The VSS is powerful enough to control shaders for all sorts of things, but the only default shader included is for skin. You would need to add hair.

Where can I find a hair shader?

There are a couple examples in this thread:

www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php

Hair shaders are rather tricky.  Most of the examples on that link show dark to black hair.  It becomes a disaster with blond hair.  The major problem also is the lack of gamma correction in the setup.  And VSS will not apply to props directly unless specifically instructed.  You will need to modify VSS with the necessary Template Shader content and afterwards create the Add Rules for proper application.  I could try to screencap images if you would like.

How have people dealt with it in some of the renders I've seen in this thread?

I'm not aware of anyone using VSS for hair shaders yet. Most are just using it for skin. Once set up, it would be a handy time-saver, though.

Note also that VSS has a bug - if hair is parented to the figure, it ignores the hair.

I have fixed that bug in VSS, but I want to do some other things before I upload and explain a new version, and don't have time.

I also have a preliminary hair shader, but it is still beneath my standards and I'm not posting till I fix it.

Ah hell, why shouldn't I post it? Caveat emptor. I have no recollection of what state it is in. But you might find it better than nothing.

I uploaded it here:

http://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/file-cabinet

Look for VSSHairProp1.zip.

I think its Shader Rule is set up to match all zones, so that all material zones in the hair get the same shader, with a *. And if I recall correctly, the Apply Rules is set up wildcarded to anything with the word hair in it, using hair.

Thank you, BB.  Will look forward to seeing what you've developed.

Thank you, BB.  Will look forward to seeing what you've developed.

I guess I'm confused once again.  The VSS prop I loaded only affects the skin?  If so, why is it that after I loaded the prop and ran the python process, the hair was so poorly handled whereas without the prop and python process the hair at least renders without all the blotches?

VSS tells you what it is affecting when you synchronize. There can be no confusion about what it touched, since it gives a complete list of what materials it is changing and which template it is using.

So what does it say?

Further, go into the materials of the hair before and after - are they the same or are they different?

Since the Generic prop applies to any figure (based on the "Apply Rules" in it) then it stands to reason that it will do work on any figure. If the hair is a figure, it will look at it, but may do nothing to it if none of the shader rules match the material zone names on the hair.

And it doesn't just affect the skin. It also does eyes, teeth, tongue, nails, etc. There are rules in it, set up by default by me, to do all that. If you don't want it to do all that, you would have to modify those rules. The rules are expressed as nodes in the "Shader Rules" material on the control prop.

That's clearer.  I'll redo it and check the hair before and after.

Here's a workflow tip. Don't try to deal with VSS in a scene loaded with stuff.

When I work with a figure, that's all that I have in the scene. I use VSS repeatedly until the figure looks how I want. Then I either save the figure entirely, or save its materials as a material collection. Next time I want that setup, I don't bother with VSS - I just load that figure or that material collection.

Similarly, I work with hair by itself, until it is right, then save that.

I work with other things and save them.

Then I assemble the scene.

Same with airplanes or cars or whatever.

Would creating a version of VSS for props (non-figures) be a consideration, Bagginsbill? Or are there issues with how Poser looks at props vs figures? That would open shader management to a host of stuff, like prop hair, jewellery... etc.
Just a question... by no means a demand. I know you're terribly busy these days...

VSS already works with props. I configured the figure control prop apply rule to only look for figures. Put the name (or partial name with wildcards) in for any props and it works on them.

I think by accident I left a rule in there for anything with the name ball* as well. I was using it to test on some balls before I uploaded it.

The Generic Figure prop I delivered is for figures only because I put material zones on it for figures - skin, nails, etc. But the script will work on props too, and if you configure the control prop rules to do so, it will.

For example, if you have the P.I.C.K. construction set, you typically have dozens of wall props. If you need to apply shaders to them, VSS will do it with one click.

I've attached a sample in the works.  On the left we see the original shader that comes with Valea's Diamond Hair.

On the right is the diamond hair with BB's Hair shader (Beta)

The difference is quite subtle since Valea did a great job with it.  But the VSS Hair shader added a few subtle touches that brings the realism a little closer.

Thank you, Bagginsbill!

You really had me going, there, jd! Here I thought Bill had gone and published the hair (as in: what grows on the scalp) shader he had teased us with on RDNA :unsure:... but you were refering to body hair. :laugh:
Oh well. Back to drawing those eyebrows....

no, it is a hair, as in what grows on the head, shader.  Valea makes transmapped hair.  it's a pretty basic shader with GC, 0.8 diffuse and anisotropic specular.  and some CoE.  the thing about testing it on regular textures, including Valea's, is that they have burned in specular. it's not the best comparison.

the thing that makes it different than your average bagginsbill GC shader is the specular is an anisotropic node colored a pale yellow, boosted to a Relectivity of 6, and given a U/V of 1, 0.1.

edited to add: you could write a Matmatic function for it in seconds.

Alyson hair, before and after VSS. I don't like it. And hair takes FOREVER to render with raytraced shadows, even without IDL. Iterating this shader is so tedious, I don't have the patience.

I have probably 100 transmapped hair sets, and I hardly want to load them anymore, just go with dynamic. And that's despite the time necessary to run the simulations - it still seems a lot quicker than rendering transmapped hair with raytracing. (And rendering without RT... meh. Why bother?)

Well, first off, thank you all for popping my bubble.  I thought I had a good thing going.

And, if dynamic hair is that which is made in the Hair Room, then I'll pick transmapped any day. 

Besides, transmapped hair is hardly a challenge for my Quadcore Mac Pro8-P

Not intending to pop bubbles. The render looks good, although I think that as far as realism goes, transmapped hair is going to hit the wall much more quickly than is dynamic hair.

I guess the bottom line is that you use what you're happy with. And it never hurts to improve things with better shaders.

I find that transmapped always looks much better than the results I have seen from dynamic hair in Poser.

www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php

just to be clear, i wasn't at all speaking as a criticism. just trying to reassure RobynsVeil about how much this might affect her experiments.

i think that it's true it's probably not worth your time.   i think transmapped hair is going to be a thing of the past.  that's one reason i wouldn't expect you to play with it more.  the best dynamic hair i've seen out of P8 is much better than transmapped hair in terms of realistic shading. but not in terms of styling.  between that and the fact that it's faster to render than transmapped now tells me that the future is in dynamic hair.  shaders will advance, which will benefit both.  dynamic hair technology will advance, which benefits dynamic hair.  i really doubt there will be an advancement that will benefit transmapped hair specifically. 

edited to add: i say this because even though i don't do animation, i almost always have to post work hair because it's not dynamic.  it doesn't lay right, it's not volumetric enough for the motion i need, and it's almost never has the morphs i need to use it at all.  i end up painting lots of hair from scratch, and almost never do less than use the hair as a base for painting. none of those problems have a solution beyond the morph brush and the incredibly resource intensive faux volumetric transmapped hair (of which i own a few).  even AerySoul doesn't seem to use shadows on their own hair.  but dynamic hair can be made quicker to sim, easier to style, and more realistically shaded.  and it's already faster to render.

The VSSHairProp1 doesn't work for me.  When I hit Synchronize nothing happens (the python window doesn't come up and there are no changes to the hair materials)

I've also never been able to use 'Set Generic Figure Shader' in the VSS designer.  When I click it, nothing happens.   All the other options in the designer work though.  Anyone know what could be causing this?

Ahh I only checked that it had Template Hair and assumed it would apply to all material names that had hair in them.   But won't I need the 'Set Generic Figure Shader' in the VSS Designer to change this?  As I said in the earlier post that doesn't work for me...

If you have the most current VSSProp installed, activate the Python Script with 'vssMainButtons.py', not the 'Set Generic Figure Shader'.  Just tested it and it works for me.

The way I use it is I load vssMainbuttons.py, then go into designer and from there I hit 'Set Generic Figure Shader.

I just downloaded the PreviewRelease1 again and I see it's different from the VSS pythons I have in my runtime.  I have several macro pythons in there now.   Have the python script been updated or are the macros something that VSS creates?

I'll try deleting the vss folder from my runtime and unzip it again.

Oh, now I understand the problem.  The way to add a new rule is to click on 'Add a Rule Node'.  Especially if you want to create new nodes within 'Appy Rules' or 'Shader Rules'.  'Add a Copy Node' is specifically used in 'Shader Rules'.  I could never get the Set Generic Figure Shader to work; I haven't figure out where to apply it.  Sorry for the confusion.

Quote - Yep, there's not much to the shader. I did say I didn't want to publish it. grin

Alyson hair, before and after VSS. I don't like it. And hair takes FOREVER to render with raytraced shadows, even without IDL. Iterating this shader is so tedious, I don't have the patience.

I look at things in increments. I still suck at rendering good images, but I suck incrementally less. This shader has made hair look a bit better (hasn't increased render times all that much either, AFAICT). And it is an opportunity to see your mind at work, Bill, which is always a treat... so when that Great American Hair Shader is published, I kind-of saw the growth process.

I don't need "wow"... happy with "ooo neato"... :biggrin:

Quote - The VSSHairProp1 doesn't work for me.  When I hit Synchronize nothing happens (the python window doesn't come up and there are no changes to the hair materials)

Okay, same here. Here's what I do:
Load V4.2
Load VSSHair prop
Load Chocolate Hair prop

Now, in the Shader Rules material zone of VSSHair I create a number of Rule nodes (with the Add a Rule Node button) to correspond with the material zones in Chocolate hair: to wit...
Wisps
Highlight
Bangs
Top
Middle
Back
Skullcap

Then I create a Material zone called Template Cap, and still in the Shader Rule zone create both a Rule Skullcap and a Copy Template Cap to match the material zone name:

and my Apply Rules:

Still, no joy. I AM doing something wrong - I just know it. But what?

Robyn, there is no need to set up Rule nodes under Shader Rules.  BB has included a default which will change all Materials of your hair.  But you must address the particular hair in Apply Rules.

Change the apply rule name to hair. As I said, I uploaded it as-is without checking. Obviously I was playing with Alyson hair the last time I worked on it.

If the Apply rule isn't matching, it could be the bug where the hair is parented - VSS won't do parented things. Work with the hair un-paranted.

I am frantically working on the new library GUI for Poser Pro 2010. I hope to have that project finished in the next couple days. Then I can take a breath and get back to fun stuff. I'm going to try to do a VSS GUI for P8+,  because P8 has wxPython so can make nice GUI components in Python.

That worked!   I loaded only the hair figure and VSSHairProp.   Went into the Apply Rules and created a MediumBraids node and deleted the old node and it worked.  This is great.  Now I can assign the regular VSS to specific characters :)

Thanks for the help.

Thank you, HBorre and Bagginsbill... I'll have a go with those ideas. BTW, I really can wait for fixes and stuff - you've got much bigger fish to fry, Bill, so please don't give this another thought... and thank you for answering.

Hi Im new to VSS, downloaded it a while ago, installed it last night and am excited about using it....I must have missed something in this thread but I am trying to find the vssMainButtons.py script to run and synchronize in the material room. I downloaded the PR3 control prop, the template, vargass template and the albino template, I dont see the script in any of the zips or installed in my runtime from the extraction...Ive looked around for ti but I cant seem to locate it..is there a link to it or is it from the template? 

DOOH...I found it , I didnt DL the free preview release 1 link instead just the pr3, sorry guys ( extreme Noob moment here).

Aahhh I was halfway through an answer to your problem ;)   Have a good time with VSS!  Btw., what Poser version are you using?

Poser 8......anything special needed or need to know?

Once you're comfortable using VSS you should check out bagginsbill's Soft Studio Lights.  It's a scene file with optimized light, VSS prop and render settings for use with IDL.  Check out this thread:

Tutorial Scene - Poser 8 Soft Studio Lights with IDL

There's a link to the scene there, plus bagginsbill explains in detail what it's all about.

Just getting to grips with VSS, IBL and AO, thanks to everyone's suggestions a few weeks ago.

I love the difference everything makes to my images.  Hopefully I'll have something worth posting soon.

I haven't tried the new hair shader yet; I'm currently adding a little Blinn to hair, which is producing a look I rather like.

BB - the VSS shader is superb.  Many thanks. 

ST: Weren't you going to drop the over-concern for technical and get back to telling stories? LOL You're welcome. I can't stand looking at bad Poser renders done with the old P4 ways. It's not an artistic style that says something interesting, It's just ugly. Bad, mediocre, or uninteresting lighting and shaders are not a statement - they're an accident that needs to be cleaned up.

Yep, BB, I am going to stop concentrating on technique so much, once I feel I have this set of tricks reasonably in the bag.  A lot of people pointed out the shortcomings in my lighting - all true - so I decided to play around with IBL and AO, using your ideas as a starting point.  That led naturally to the VSS shader system.

It seems this lot should cover most bases for me with a minimum of fuss (I don't mind the long render times so much), which will leave me free to concentrate more on the content of the image.

That said, most of the new ideas I have in mind go right back to basics with Poser; using it more as reference and as a rotoscoping template.  But for my "realistic" images, your techniques are perfect. 

I just wanted to say thank you for VSS, while I have been doing 3d art for a few years, I just stumbled across it.

Set up in a few minutes after reading through the thread here (that took more than a few minutes... heh).  The dreaded pale skin question was answered, my only major problem was the bump map being set too high, a second render with it changed from the default .03 to .015 got rid of the dark speckling quite neatly.

Thanks so much again, this is going to save me huge amounts of time.

Quick question since I haven't really used it much but is there a way to make it keep the displacement when using VSS? I was trying it again today and it was removing displacement settings.

Select your VSS prop, go into the material editor and select template skin from the material list.  Hook an empty image map into displacement and set your displacement value.  Go into the VSS designer and hit Change Image Names.  That should do it.

Thanks. I can't seem to get ti to work since I can't get into the VSS designer (On a mac and the python doesn't seem to work). Oh well, thanks again.