Looking through the various marketplaces it seems like a lot of the newer items don't catch my eye all that much.  I'm not saying everything is bad but nothing really cries out "BUY ME" lately.  Anyone else feel that way?

 Yeah I feel the same.  I blame bagginsbill ;)   Seriously though I sometimes feel burnt out on Poser and I´m always searching for a new  "breakthrough" or the next "great thing".  Fact is that I find more useful stuff here in the forums then in the store and that's mostly thanks to bagginsbill and his inventions & techniques.   But at some point I have to stop searching for stuff and start doing some work :)

There are a few key merchants out there that I try to follow but most of the store stuff is useless or uninteresting to me.   

Yeah...   Lets all get together and get "bagginsbill"  to Cease and Desist from making stuff that teaches us to use Our heads and not Our wallets to achieve better results in Poser.

Personally ,   I am experiencing a burnout type attitude because of difficulty keeping up with all that I have learned about Poser over the past few months..!

Hear this BAGGINSBILL........       No more good stuf that makes us stretch Our brains.. (or whatever We use as a replacement,,)...!

Sorry. grin

BB gets blamed for alot of things, but I think your bang on here. I remember when a good texture map and nice bump, was all I needed in a material. Now I can't render a single item without going into the material room a start changing things, searching rendo or rdna for what bill had to say about that material. I'd like to start seeing BB approved props, that would be a selling feature.

Quote - I'd like to start seeing BB approved props, that would be a selling feature.

Sheesh,opening a can of worms. You would have to have a BagginsBill-approved testing team. Not that the current testing team don't work hard, but sheesh - the BagginsBill testing team would be asking for the shader in script form to test materials for mathematical / physics validity.

So, in order for such a team to even exist, one would have to put together a BagginsBill School of Remedial Algebra and Physical Science as Applied to Material Creation so the endorsed developer / testers are all singing off the same page.

With me so far?

I mean, I absolutely love the idea, but heck, we'd all be sitting some pretty tough exams (I'm flattering myself that I'd even be accepted)... talk about burning the midnight oil!

And that's just the testing team. We're not even looking at the developers who buy into the revolutionary notion that materials can be (and are best) represented in a math formula: that for materials to behave reliably under all lighting, they really do need to follow rather strict (as in: physically accurate) rules.

And while we're at it, maybe someday doctors will use sterile equipment to perform surgery, and anaesthetic so the patients don't suffer so much, and even use antibiotics to prevent....

Nahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

 Hey,,,,       This thread started on  BURNOUT!!!!!!  and now We are discussing the making of '''MORE""??    My brain cell are dying too fast for this.    I am trying to learn to take things 
S..L....O......O..........O...........W.!  Just like My Doctor  ordered...

 Maybe you've got all the things you need to start making some nice renders, or your graphic novel, or story book or whatever.
Love esther

IMHO, V4 is greatly to blame for a lot of 'burnout'. It takes a very good vendor to come up with anything that isn't instantly recognizable as V4. V3 was, and still is, the best out there for facial morphs.

BB is the other part of the problem: once you see what he can do, your normal render just isn't good enough anymore. And if you have great skin, that clothing just doesn't fit into the render, and the hair needs to be much better, and the props... eek!  

I sometimes think the huge burn out is because 3D is all over the place now.  Not like it use to be, 3D Graphics use to be quiet unique.....it is hard to find something different.  It is even harder to come up with something different that someone has not already done.  But there are always newbies around and they are the ones that usually pull me out of burn out.  Sharen

Well, say what you will, but Bagginsbill is the antidote to burnout. Wanna get away from the same-ol' ... same-ol'? As people decide to try some of BB's concepts and allow their imaginations to work with those principles, the hard-to-find-something-different will become increasingly rare.

That said: I guess it's about what the market wants... if they want that same old lady-with-a-sword facing unspeakable evils, that's what the content makers will provide.

But how about us all getting back to our roots, wasn't it all about just how far we could drive this software? I guess one of the reasons (besides the deneros) that I don't really wish to upgrade is because I haven't even tapped out Poser 7 yet!

Burnout? Maybe I don't have has much time as everyone else to do this, but I'm a LONG ways from burning out!

Quote - Sorry. grin

Heh.
If you're like me, you take being accused of making people think as a very high complement....... ;)

[quote**]IMHO, V4 is greatly to blame for a lot of 'burnout'. It takes a very good vendor to come up with anything that isn't instantly recognizable as V4. V3 was, and still is, the best out there for facial morphs.**
(stuff snipped)

QFT! (Quoted for Truth!)
In the thread that requested Victoria5 I was going to say the best was V3. If I was going to ask for a V5 it would be go back to V3 and work that mesh.
And to the OP's comment about the Marketplace, my wishlist is mostly V3 stuff so I hear you about not being "grabbed" by whats there. Though HAIR is always a wanted item.

 Yes, I too would prefer a re-worked V3 for V5.  She had a very nice face (except when she opens her mouth or tries to smile).  Her look was far more versatile.  It's hard not to get michael jackson or maralyn munro out of V4.
Love esther

Lately, if I need something specific, I try to make it myself first. Makes me more well rounded...hehe. Less impact on the wallet too ;o).

Laurie

 That's good but I think if you try and make a human type figure it will take you several months of hard work at least.
Love esther

Quote - Lately, if I need something specific, I try to make it myself first. Makes me more well rounded...hehe. Less impact on the wallet too ;o).

Laurie

Plus, making it yourself is heaps more fun! Keeping that drive going is sometimes a bit challenging but wow, that satisfaction makes it SO worth it!

Yep, the satisfaction factor is definitely there...lol. It's pretty cool when you make an item of clothing and it really looks nice :o). A complete figure is a long way away, but with Antonia and other free figures, I think others have that area covered pretty well ;o). Besides, as my skills get better at modeling, who knows what's in my future? lol

Laurie

 hehe BagginsBill School of Remedial Algebra and Physical Science sounds good.  Can I get in on pure enthusiasm or would I need a math degree? ;)  

I have an idea for us burnouts.  Most of us have images in our galleries dating back a few years. How about selecting one of your first submissions and redoing it with all your new bells, whistles and techniques?  Maybe do a side by side post here?

It's at least a good idea to flip though your gallery and look at your old stuff.  I have images dating back to 2002 and quite a few of them make me laugh while others make go "how the h*ll did I do that?.  Just a thought.

I try not to look at my old images too often. It depresses me...lol ;o).

Laurie

Attached Link: Here is the remake..

Quote -  hehe BagginsBill School of Remedial Algebra and Physical Science sounds good.  Can I get in on pure enthusiasm or would I need a math degree? ;)  

I have an idea for us burnouts.  Most of us have images in our galleries dating back a few years. How about selecting one of your first submissions and redoing it with all your new bells, whistles and techniques?  Maybe do a side by side post here?

It's at least a good idea to flip though your gallery and look at your old stuff.  I have images dating back to 2002 and quite a few of them make me laugh while others make go "how the h*ll did I do that?.  Just a thought.

I did this a short while ago.....  It was good to see the difference

 Hehe that's great work Noel.  The whole composition in the remake is way better although both images have it's merits.  Something about the original that makes it a little more scary to me.

Quote -  Hehe that's great work Noel.  The whole composition in the remake is way better although both images have it's merits.  Something about the original that makes it a little more scary to me.

Something to do with the floating trees I think..  Surreal in a Dali-esque kind of way,  IMO..

Quote - > Quote -  Hehe that's great work Noel.  The whole composition in the remake is way better although both images have it's merits.  Something about the original that makes it a little more scary to me.

Something to do with the floating trees I think..  Surreal in a Dali-esque kind of way,  IMO..

Yeah it could be the trees and the expression looks more angry or frantic...

Quote - Looking through the various marketplaces it seems like a lot of the newer items don't catch my eye all that much.  I'm not saying everything is bad but nothing really cries out "BUY ME" lately.  Anyone else feel that way?

You know, I get burned out Poser quite often for a lot of reasons, many of them the same that I hear from users and a whole laundry list of them that are more content creator specific. But for my part, at the very least I try to make stuff that is unique and might offer some new ideas and creative directions for users than what your standard catalogs of V & M stuff hold. It's always sad to me how easily one can get buried under that stuff when there are a handful of us out there doing really innovative, creative things with it.  I think the thing about Poser, at this point in it's life as a tool/product, the biggest problem is that the galleries and most of the sites promoting them have become stale and new avenues for where one can "go" with their Poser based artwork need to emerge. I have thought for a long, long time that it would absolutely rock to see some contests out there that spotlight imagery where M/V are NOT the focal point, especially now that there's a pretty decent variety of vendors providing original figures and innovative content to choose from. I can remember a time when the people like us, ones providing original figures and sort of pushing that envelope, could be counted on one hand. Back then, saying something like that didn't quite work. But now, there are a lot of options out there and I think a lot less "brand loyalty" to prevent something like that from being a success. So while the M&V stuff can still bury someone like us, I also have optimism from the fact that there is a greater level of diversity out there. It just needs to be promoted, and that means that, specifically, Renderosity, as arguably the largest site in the field, needs to have the courage to try new things in their Poser galleries and marketplace rather than relying on the same old dog and pony show. Shake up the market, shake up the galleries, shake up the community. It would make things dynamic and exciting again on many levels for many people. Just my $.02 on it. -Les

Attached Link: V3's Smile

I might disagree with the smile comment part of this statement. I always thought V3 could do a wonderful smile. Little example in the link above. Old render, so forgive the simplicity of it. Not that my work has gotten much better. grin

 Beetlejuice Syndrome

The only thing I miss about V3 are some of her old stuff although I guess I could convert some of it to V4.  Even though V4 is far from perfect she's simply far superior to V3 especially when it comes to proportions.  Take a look at the link above.  Her head is way too small and the rest of her body is not that great either.  

"ah ah ah...nobody says the 'b' word' - Beetlejuice...;)

I wonder if quantity has anything to do with it..I'm finally up to about 24G (about middlin' for this crowd) in my Runtime, and you start askin' 'do I really need another pair of shoes?" (obviously a man here...;)

How much stuff out there gets downloaded, installed, then you forget you have it? I spend as much time dialing through loaded content, a database, etc., to put together pictures, that it's almost work!... it's supposed to be fun...at least that's what I want.  The database helps (heck, even with thumbnails, that's over a gig now...;) but the multitude of choices might be part of the burnout...;)

AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I had a lengthy response and I lost it before I could post reply.  Time for a short verstion:

-I don't blame BB, I blame the merchants who don't listen to him.  Plus what his main focus is is getting people on the far side of the uncanny valley, which is a noble goal, but if you want stylized his advice will have to be modified.

-esterau... Nah!   I am still willing to buy the right items, I just can't find the right items.

-scanmead, I've only worked with V4 so I don't know if that's the problem or not.

-Sharen, you have a point about how 3D graphics are more commonplace and it's hard to find new things to do, but there's an old adage about their being nothing new under the sun.  I think there are still a lot of things that can be redone, spruced up, or generally improved.

-Robyn, yeah what sells in the marketplace is a limiting factor to new items.  However I've seen a lot of things that are well done but I don't like the style or can't justify getting it.  For example if there's a character in the marketplace who has a pretty face but she comes with tattoos I'm not going to get that character; for the most part I find ink ugly and I'm not going to pay for that.

-Laurie, I am trying to model my own things (I've done a few swords) however I work at a snails pace so relying on my own work would end up with a number of nude vicky renders.

-Vestman,  sometimes I go back into old images and tweak the lighting or what not but I haven't tried to redo something altogether.

Quote -  Beetlejuice Syndrome

The only thing I miss about V3 are some of her old stuff although I guess I could convert some of it to V4.  Even though V4 is far from perfect she's simply far superior to V3 especially when it comes to proportions.  Take a look at the link above.  Her head is way too small and the rest of her body is not that great either.  

V4 is really no better in that direction. Her head is still too small and her thigh length is just ridiculous. I prefer V3 over 4 as well. Same for Aiko.

Laurie

-sixus, yeah there are people doing innovative things who sometimes get buried under everything else.  But also people like you who can create things like new figures are also rare.  New characters, especially human ones, take a lot of work and a lot of support.  It's more than one person can do.  That non M/V contest idea is a good one and it could help to nudge people to work in another direction, still it will take a lot of nudging by a lot of people to get things moving.

Quote - -I don't blame BB, I blame the merchants who don't listen to him.  Plus what his main focus is is getting people on the far side of the uncanny valley, which is a noble goal, but if you want stylized his advice will have to be modified.

Hehe. People say they want stylized, but then they don't actually do it. I have plenty of advice on NPR (non-photo real) rendering. Hardly anybody asks.

I published two Vargas style shaders. Pinups are very popular in this community, and Vargas was a master at it. Try to find any gallery images that use my Vargas shaders.

I published toon shaders (way back). Try to find people mentioning Bagginsbill and Toon.

There are a few other NPR shaders I've posted over time - some toon for example. Apparent interest level? Near zero.

In other words, I have plenty to say about NPR shaders and lighting. But any time I talk about it, a handful of people say "Oh that's cool - I didn't know that Poser could do that" - and that's the end of it.

If you want NPR, you have to ask for NPR and then you have to use it. Mostly what I get asked about is realism, so that's what I talk about. The vast majority of gallery posts that mention me or my tools are because of VSS and the realistic skin or the EnvSphere.

Yeah, but VSS and the Envirosphere are so much must-haves anymore ;o). Toon shaders are sort of a matter of personal taste. Not many here even do toon renders.

Laurie

Bill, I thought I read a post of yours somewhere where you said your goal was trying to get things as photorealistic as possible.  I guess I'm mistaken.  Anyways you are right about it taking work.  I spent an hour or so fiddling around with the toon shader earlier this year only to realize it was going to take a lot more than a few hours if I'm learning by trial and error.   

I really like what vestmann did with toon and your VSS.  It's not prefect but it's better than anything I've done... with the right texture map, you could probably get something very close to borderlands with that.  Your vargas mathmatic shaders look interesting.  One of the things about stylized is it can mean many different things from mario to picasso so unless you are specific about you want, you can get anything. 

Quote - Bill, I thought I read a post of yours somewhere where you said your goal was trying to get things as photorealistic as possible.  I guess I'm mistaken.  Anyways you are right about it taking work.  I spent an hour or so fiddling around with the toon shader earlier this year only to realize it was going to take a lot more than a few hours if I'm learning by trial and error.   

I really like what vestmann did with toon and your VSS.  It's not prefect but it's better than anything I've done... with the right texture map, you could probably get something very close to borderlands with that.  Your vargas mathmatic shaders look interesting.  One of the things about stylized is it can mean many different things from mario to picasso so unless you are specific about you want, you can get anything. 

Funny you should mention Borderlands (love that game) because that exactly the style I'd want to achieve.  I stepped away from the toon tests (probably bagginsbill fault ;) but I want to try out some test with Toon ID and toon outlines.  I think if I could place outlines to the right places with Toon ID I'd get closer to the Borderlands (love that game) style.

What is Toon ID anyways?  I never got that field.

Quote - What is Toon ID anyways?  I never got that field.

The Toon IDs of material zones determine where the toon lines will appear. Adjacent material zones with the same ToonID will be joined together into one toon zone with a surrounding toon line.

Quote - Bill, I thought I read a post of yours somewhere where you said your goal was trying to get things as photorealistic as possible.  I guess I'm mistaken.  

No, you're not mistaken. That is my primary goal with the study of shaders.

The reason that it is not a goal for me to figure out NPR shaders isn't because I have no interest. It's because I already know exactly how to do them. A learning goal has to be something you don't already know. Knowing how to do them already, it's not a goal for me. That hasn't got anything to do with whether or not I'm interested in it. I was, until it wasn't a puzzle anymore. Now I'm not interested because it isn't a puzzle. 

Similarly, at one time it was my goal to get a driver's license. That is no longer a goal. My interest in driving has not waned - but it's not a goal.
 
But if people asked me how, I'd be happy to show them any style at all.

And not that useful, frankly. Look at Andy's right arm. It should be outlined, but it isn't.

Note - Poser Pro 2010 has layered rendering. I have figured out how to use that to get real toon lines.

But I'm too busy to show how at the moment.

Is it just my warped mind or does that prop behind Andy look a bit . . . phallic ???

Not perfect yet. There are some kinks to work out with anti-aliasing the normal layer, and Photoshop can't really do the kind of edge detect I know I want to use. I'd have to write a program to process the layers better. But it can be done.

Quote - Is it just my warped mind or does that prop behind Andy look a bit . . . phallic ???

Nah.....   It's just R2D2 wearing  his (Phallic) disguise..

Ok, BB, I'm asking! Vargas shaders?! NPR lighting?! Bring it on!  I'm so sick of the hyper-realistic Holy Grail. The more realistic an image is, the more people nit-pick it, including me. Although the VSS shader makes life so much easier.

What's missing is Atmosphere (with capital A), mood, and ambiance (not ambient lighting).Things old Bryce 5 did so well with its saturated color palette. Things Bryce is now trying to overcome. Things movies do so well and people love.

BB brings up another point: we all decry the perfect super model or superhero types that flood the gallery, but we don't create anything different ourselves. (Most of us, that is.) I always expect people to criticise exactly what I deliberately did. The perfect face is the standard, and anything less must be because you goofed up. Easier just to slap on that starlet  face and be done with it.

Vargas shaders (mt5 files) for use in VSS are here:

http://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/free-stuff/random-shaders/VargasVSS-Mats.zip

Load one of these into your Template_Skin (or whatever) and synchronize.

There was some discussion and renders using these in the giant VSS thread.

Also the original materials and renders are at RDNA.

Search for old posts by me with the word vargas.

Thanks!

I've now challenged myself to make a not-perfect face that doesn't pretend to be a photo. Those old Victorian postcard faces are interesting...