Hey, got a question that may seem a bit odd, but it makes me curious..

Most character skins sold here (and probably on other places too) use material from 3d.sk..

"6. use the Content in a fashion that is considered by 3D.sk (acting reasonably) as or under applicable law is considered pornographic, obscene, immoral, infringing, defamatory or libelous in nature;"

I'm guessing it's there to protect the models from bizarre usage of the pictures, but I'm curious, does this affect using characters/character skins bought at Renderosity for erotic content?  I sometimes make art that is of a rather mild erotic nature, and I'm sure tons of other people here do, too.. The Renderosity license doesn't prohibit use of the content in an erotic setting, so that should be the EULA that counts, no?

 As far as I am aware (I am not a lawyer, but I know a few IP attorneys), once the images (sold as an artists' resource) are converted from photograph to 3D texture format, the derived product (Item created in production, not necessarily meaning item for sale) would no longer be recognized as falling under the 3D.sk EULA.

HOWEVER, I would consult an attorney before making a conclusive decision.  That clause was intended to keep people from taking the images and making the images, with the models recognizeable into pornography, as that is NOT what they are intended for.

 Yeah I figured it was something along those lines..  I'm guessing that if it actually was a problem, it would already have been addressed by now, since there's a LOT of poser erotic poser content out there, ranging from mild nudity to quite graphic stuff... 

 And no, I don't know any lawyers.. But this is such a general thing that affects so many people.

 I'm getting really frustrated with this right now..  I've got thousands of dollars worth of poser content I'm not even sure I can use, just because the game I'm doing happens to have some erotic scenes in it.. You know, people making love on a beach and stuff like that.

 I love making art that's a bit on the erotic side and now I'm not sure I can do it any more.. This sort of stuff with licenses can suck every ounce of creativity away, and right now I'm not far away from just quitting the whole thing altogether.

 I mean come on, do we need lawyers just to make simple art these days? If that's the case, I am done.

 For what it's worth, I haven't heard of 3d.sk taking anyone to court over their characters that are used erotically.  However, they are hardly the only purveyor of photos for use in texturing for 3D.  They just happen to be the largest.

You could contact them for clarification, too see whether your worries are valid ;)

 Well given that the market for Poser porn is HUGE (and yes, porn not wussy erotic content ;) ) 3DSK would have several full time lawyers employed if they wanted to make sure some of their stuff wasn't used for porn.
Also.. if I use part of a finger or some of a cheek or whatever from them and put that on a texture later used for porn... Who should make the decision of when it's "too much" from 3DSK?

I can understand that they do not want anyone to create a "spitting image" of one of their models.. but seriously.. who would that anyway? (sorry but the models I've seen from that place has all been rather.. not-so-glamourous to put it nicely. Granted, it's been a while, but...

Funny thing also when you know what a large part of Levius' models used to do for a living but that's  a whole other story L

You make a good point TrekkieGrrrl.

How many images aren't posed on the Renderosity forumes daily that could be called erotic? Especially in the pinup section.

The end result using these poser characters and skins have very little to do with the original photos used as material. They are completely different figures and you'd be hard pressed to recognize something even if you knew what you were looking for..

I have no interest in creating porn, but when I'm visualizing a romantic story, I like the sexual aspect of it to be in there too, in a tasteful way, which usually results in some milder nudity and hint of sexual positions. If done right, it can be really beautiful.

Jen is probably right.. Considering that almost -all- the V4 skins I own, have material from this site, it must be in erotic content -everywhere-, not just my "wussy erotic content" as you call it, and if there was an issue, it would surely have been addressed or discussed by now.

What does the EULA say for the item you actually purchased ?  If the merchant used a resource with restrictions on the merchants work then it needs to be in the EULA for that merchants product. Its not your problem to verify every resource he used.

Thats my opinion anyway.

 The EULA is Renderosity or Daz3d's standard one.. No restrictions as far as making erotic/nude scenes.  There are lots of other resources merchants use too that I'd have no way of looking up.. (Which would be stressful to say the least.) 

And you're right, we can't spend all our time looking up every resource that merchants use, that would be an impossible task. What should matter is the EULA from where I've bought the product. Otherwise it would be absolutely impossible to get anything done..

 I also found that a lot of the same content is sold not just here at Renderosity, but also on Renderotica, with genital bits and the whole thing.. That alone should put this one to rest. :)

Clauses like the one mentioned earlier is most likely a blanket legal protection, for the site and creators, against real problems. (Found the exact same phrase on hundreds of sites when googling it.)  I have a tendency to get a bit paranoid sometimes..

I don't think I have to stop making poser art, and thanks for the help.. :)

If their content has been used in porn in the past without their challenging the use, you have protection if they were suddenly to challenge your use.

I can understand a vendor who doesnt want his material used for porn if its readily identifiable, but there should be enough skin textures that can be used. A lot of the 3d porn stuff I have seen doesnt have high production values anyway.

Quote - I can understand a vendor who doesnt want his material used for porn if its readily identifiable, but there should be enough skin textures that can be used. A lot of the 3d porn stuff I have seen doesnt have high production values anyway.

Then you've been looking at the wrong sites :) I've seen Poser pron that beats 99% of anything in the galleries here.

Point is, Poser porn is here to  stay, and it's silly to think you can EULA yourself out of it. Most EULAs doesn't accept usage restrictions anyway - that was the big problem with Dazø Ann Marie Goddard (at least I think that was the name,,,) morph - who would buy a character you practically couldn't use?

BESIDES.. the certain way to get anyone to do something is to forbid it L The Frbitten fruit is always the sweetest ;)

THAT said.. I once made a 3D version of myself, based on V3. Used photos of my own skin and made a morph that looked enough like me for it to be .. well.. too weird for me to ever sell - or use. So I can understand why someone wouldn't like their doppelganger yused for porn - but should someone once find a pic of my left nipple and use that.. well.. chances are I wouldn't even be able to recognize it L

Quote - [
THAT said.. I once made a 3D version of myself, based on V3. Used photos of my own skin and made a morph that looked enough like me for it to be .. well.. too weird for me to ever sell - or use.

It would be cool of you did a render in something like your morphing Hair-Curlers-Housecoat-Slippers; how weird could that be?

Past violations is not a defense.. think of Music Sharing.

If you are producing a game, you may have other issues. Unless you are just using images, most content can not be redistributed.

With regards to limits on use of images or derivatives of images used to create textures, I would recommend contacting an Attorney. Telling the Judge that the users in the Forum said it was okay will not be a viable defense, should anyone come after you.

You do bring up an interesting point that Content Creators need to be aware of, when using third party product to produce content, where that third party product had limitations. It may be wise for the content creators to check their EULA to see if it reflects the limits of the content.

(Look at the old DAZ3D Product that used the model. It had a lot of different limitations, when compared to most)

I would start by contacting 3d.sk and asking them how far they think their conditions go, i.e. if they are supposed to be binding on purchasers of material made by another party using their sources. If that were the case then it seems to me that merchants would need to make customers aware of that.

Given that a merchant may use various purchased resources in an item, it could be a real nightmare if all of the various possible restrictions mandated by all the resource vendors are applicable to the final product. You could in theory even end up with conditions that directly contradicted each other.

If 3d.sk wants to insist that their terms transfer to anything created with their material then things would get very interesting indeed. I think they'd be foolish to do so, even if it were legal, but that never stopped anyone. I can see Daz's position with the AMG 'digital clone,' that was a work designed to mimic an identifiable individual as closely as possible. Even then, IIRC, there was such a furor that they eventually modified the terms of use.

1. It's a standard clause used in hundreds of photo and graphics sites.

2. They sell their stuff on Renderosity, AND on Renderotica, which is a totally different site, with different license agreements.

3. People use these skins with materials used from all these photo sites every day in an erotic context, including this forum. 

4. If someone actually suggest me to talk to a lawyer to use legally purchased content just because I want to make some romantic/erotic scenes, I will delete all my poser content, and refuse to continue doing art in this genre, because nothing disgusts me more than this sort of crap and it completely kills my creativity..  When I buy something at Renderosity or Daz3d, I assume that I'm fine as long as I am following their EULA.  I don't have the energy or time to talk to some damn lawyers to produce hobby art. In fact I get angry just hearing the suggestion, and that such attitudes actually exist.

Once again I'm very close to just stop doing thist stuff all together.. It's beyond stupid and irritating, and I honestly wish I hadn't even brought up this subject, because it's completely ruined the inspiration I had to create something that was romantic and beautiful (and happening to have some physical expression of love in it)  I'm beyond disgusted!

 If anyone still wants any of my products, I'd suggest you hurry, because I will probably ask the staff to take them down pretty soon.

 Grappo, have you considered shooting an email to Peter over at 3d.sk, to ask for clarification on the terms?

  First of all apologies for throwing my frustration out all over the place...

This nervousness is entirely my own creation, since nobody else has even raised the issue before. When my wife wondered why I was so mad, and talked to her about it, she pointed out (and not for the first time) that I need to stop trying to control every little possible thing that could happen or could be wrong.

What I'd really like to do is to just relax and keep working on my art, like I've always been. 

I have so many poser products, that have material from so many different sources. If I start going down this road, or if anyone else does that too, that mean I'd start to work with a belief I have to check all the sources made using a product I already bought. Some products don't even have all resources listed in the readme, so I would have to ask Renderosity for them, and then check them up, and so on. It would be a full time job to check up every little product and freebie I have.  And I have collected thousands of them over the years.  

The EULA of the product I'm purchasing HAS to be enough. If it's not, and someone has a problem with my little hobby game or art gallery, well..  then that's something I will have to deal with as it comes. I can't spend all my time pre-empting every possible source and license out there.  That's not what they are made for. They are made to protect vendors, companies and end users from serious harm.  If there's a minor risk in this, it's one I have to take in order to continue working with this stuff.

If I'm going to keep my sanity as an artist, I need to let this stuff go. These skins and hairs and then the custom character they are used on don't carry any real life resemblance to whatever sources that were used by the vendor to make them. Nothing obscene or bizarre or insulting was ever created.. And yes, I have considered contacting all sorts of different sources, but I don't think it's a road I want to start moving down on. Because it wouldn't end there... It would be all the other sources too.

My own art is not hardcore porn.  Most of it is not even erotic at all.  I make stories and art that sometimes have scenes with nudity and softcore love scenes, because it's a natural part of it. It's romance, it's love, it's beauty, and it's so far from whatever sources the vendor's products has it could be.

Thank you for listening.

 And for some reason the text background is white, and I wasn't able to change it.. Oh well.. :)

Jenx , can you get the rendo copyright agent or store person to address  this question. Is the rendo EULA the ruling legal document or do we have to worry about merchant resource limitations ?

I've let them know that there are questions.  (I would still recommend contacting 3d.sk to get their answer on THEIR EULA, though)

It is really up to 3d.sk to make judgment calls about their EULA.

With that said, I would still expect our vendors to properly follow the EULA on any resources that they use and make sure buyers understand any possible restrictions. 

Quote - It is really up to 3d.sk to make judgment calls about their EULA.

With that said, I would still expect our vendors to properly follow the EULA on any resources that they use and make sure buyers understand any possible restrictions. 

Ok, if I understand this right....

What you just said makes the Renderosity EULA count for absolutely nothing.

Laurie

 I think she's just describing the situation as it is.  There's no clear-cut answer, and there hasn't as far as I known ever been a conflict.

Also remember that 3d.sk sells their skin resources here too (And the readme file didn't show anything conflicing with the eula here). They also sell a lot of their skin resources on Renderotica, which obviously have their own eula. 

Considering all of these circumstances I doubt there's any real conflict, and if there had been, wouldn't it have been adressed years ago?

 This is madness. If I buy a texture, I'm certainly not going to track down where every little eyelash originates from. It may be a finger from one site, a foot sole from another site. A lip photographed by the texture artist.. 

When I buy something I expect the END USER LICENSE AGREEMENT (EULA) to be for the END product, not for every little pixel used.

And how can a texture artist control what people use their texture for? In fact I thought it was AGAINST the TOS /Merchant agreement to put any specific limitations on anything sold here - BECAUSE the Renderosity license is what is counting. 

THAT is the legally binding document.

Stacy.. are you seriously saying this is not the case?! O.o  

I only see clothes for sale in your store. So far, no problem I can see there. As for usage, if you aren't reselling the actual images from 3D.sk as is and are not using them in pornography, IMHO, I think you are covered.

Their license clearly states (and it's also quoted on their homepage) "Licence guarantees that once you download the photos you can use them for any personal or commercial project as long as you wish without any additional payment." That covers money usage. They also state in the FAQ: "Yes, you can use all of our photos for commercial projects. So it's possible to create textures from our photos to map 3D characters and then sell the characters and/or textures to 3rd parties." It does state in the commercial license that they must be re-worked. Knowing their pictures, they always need re-working.

They go into lengthy, easy to understand details here for commercial use:
http://www.3d.sk/commercial-terms

The hobby license is similar but not as lengthy:
http://www.3d.sk/hobby-terms

"For clarity, you may not use the Content in products for resale, license or other distribution, unless the original Content has been fundamentally modified or transformed sufficiently that it constitutes an original work entitling the author or artist to copyright protection under applicable law, and where the primary value of such transformed or derivative work is not recognizable as the Content nor is the Content capable of being downloaded, extracted or accessed by a third party as a stand-alone file (satisfaction of these conditions will constitute the work as a “Permitted Derivative Work” for the purposes of this Agreement). "

"You may not use the Content in a fashion that is considered by 3D.sk (acting reasonably) as or under applicable law is considered pornographic, obscene, immoral, infringing, defamatory or libelous in nature;"

Porn is porn and is usually classified as obscene - it involves the use of - well you know. Soft core love scenes are not porn and have never been considered porn in western courts. R rated movies are not porn. So there you go.

They do ask that you contact them if you have questions. But I really don't think you have real worries, IMHO.

Thank you for your response Ksanderson.

Yes I doubt that my material would be much cause of trouble for anyone.  It contains nudity such as undressing, moving breasts, seeing some naked bodies, poetic text describing love acts, stuff like that. (None of the explicit genital stuff) Maybe a little bit more than the usual R rated stuff, but still...

My issue was more about the skins that I have bought here than clothes. Skins that use materials from 3d.sk and tons of other resources.  

Even if I am safe with my little lovescenes, I still agree with what Trekkiegrrl says. A buyer should not have to track down sources to textures they buy, other than the EULA from the site it's been purchased. Anything else -would- be madness.

Well that's pretty clear. If you're buying character/texture sets, they had to be reworked to be sold and quite frankly, nobody at 3d.sk looks like any of the characters here, at DAZ, RuntimeDNA or Renderotica and vice versa. I know, because I peruse all the stuff available. Unless there's a really identifiable mole or such, I don't think you'd have any idea what came from where, whom, etc.

3d.sk, as I think someone said earlier, doesn't want their images resold as another package of basically the same images. All texture sites say the same thing. They also probably promise the models in their release forms that said images will not be used in porn collections and the kind. Standard CYA.

Your description of what you do still sounds pretty tame - maybe just racy - and not ready for primetime broadcast but would fly on regular pay cable channels such as what's been on HBO or Showtime. I've gone through obscentiy tests at work (no kidding - I'm in radio and do work for a CBS station) and they pretty graphically describe what would get you in trouble and the huge fines/jail time.

Kevin

First of all, 3d.sk pays women to pose nude so their skin textures can be used as 3D resources. I think it's understood by all that the textures may be used in nude or scantily clad 3D depictions.

Second of all, I can't imagine some girl seeing a nude V4 character and saying, "Hey, that's MY birthmark on her butt! I'm gonna sue!"

Because, see point 1. She was paid to pose nude so people could use her skin for just that purpose, and I'm sure she signed a release allowing it.

I don't buy directly from 3d.sk, somebody correct me if I'm wrong. But do the textures include full facial features that are recognizable when stretched over a 3D mesh? I figure these textures are modified six ways to Sunday by the merchant before releasing a character skin.

I mean, girls who do actual porn are so heavily made up that their own mothers wouldn't recognize them.  Can they be recognized in this context?

But even if they can, again, they deliberately posed for pay, knowing what the photos would be used for.

this is a point that jack k. (previous owner of this site) was wont to mention: users may buy
the same texture multiple times.  he didn't specifically say the cute czech girl on 3d.sk, but
her fotos are probly the most frequently sold here, after conversion into v2/3/4 tex.  she's
worth it IMVHO.  they should buy her fotos again and again, ad infinitum.

 I don't think there is any real issue using V4 skins for whatever. Just look at the galleries at Renderotica and other poser porn sites and you'll know what I mean. And I'm sure they use tons of skins from here too (because the best ones are sold here, and some good on Daz3d as well.)

As Ksanderson says, it's standard material in a release form, to ensure that the photos are not used in a way that could be harmful to the models, that's is exactly as it should be.

How the reworked third party skins are then used is not really an issue as far as I know..