NB: Please do not name names in this thread. This thread is about the concept of "naming and shaming", not about individual cases. Naming names will get this thread shut down.

OK, my problem is that the way the system works for copyright infringements is that we mail the relevant sites, get the illegal and stolen models taken down, and then the matter is over.

My objection to this is that the person who has stolen a model, distributed it illegally, and in some cases made profit or a reputation from it, gets the model taken down. That's it. No black mark on his reputation, no public knowledge of his crime (and it is a crime), no fine, no banning. He just carries on as before.

I am not talking about someone whose has accidently included a texture or morph in a product, or someone who through ignorance has done something wrong, I am talking about people who have distributed commercial models on P2P sites, people who have stolen meshes and passed these off as their own, or people who have uploaded models they "found" on the internet on free sites like ShareCg, or have uploaded these to their own sites and claimed they have modelled them.

I normally contact someone who has infringed on my copyright and let them know. If they are apologetic, I offer to work with them to make whatever they have done legal, such as a Poser conversion of a model, or I offer to provide them with legal models to convert if that is what they want to do.

But in some cases the perpetrator takes it just too far, like releasing 120 models made by other people and passing these off as his own, in a case like that there can be no claim of "I made a mistake" or "I didn't know". 

So my question is, if someone has done something like this, am I within my rights to name and shame this person on my own personal site? Am I allowed to let people know that the models they downloaded from this person are illegal downloads?

Anybody have any opinions about this? 

the problem is called "Libel".....

when you find out let me know, a bunch of my stuff is on some of the torrents. Burns my butt too.

Yes, I know, but if I have proof, coroborated by my copyright claim, and an agreement from the sites that take the model down, that it was an illegal act, then am I committing libel?

Or do I just let it go and let the person carry on as if he has done nothing wrong, even if he has illegally distributed hundred's of dollars worth of products?

Libel only applies if it is false statement .

Quote - the problem is called "Libel".....

Bingo.  Whether or not someone infringes your IP, there are proper channels for it. 

Due process means that sometimes, the infringer isn't painted as a bad guy right away.  It sucks sometimes.  But, if, by some strange twist of fate, they aren't in the wrong, they have the right to turn around and sue Renderosity.  Why?  Because we let the post happen and stay up in public.

You are free to put yourself in that position.  Our TOS forbids you to put us in that position.  

Sure you can name them, but be very certain that you are correct because you expose yourself to slander-libel laws.  Really only the courts can make a judgement on copyright issues but prosecutions are fairlly rare because they can get expensive , and the law is not clear in some areas, and even if you win your reward may be the item is pulled from sale. Punitive awards are not available for unregistered copyrights in many countriess.

JenX,

I am not saying that I want to name the person/persons on Renderosity. My problem is just that as a site owner, if I am found to have committed an illegal act of uploading a model and selling it without permission, the result for me is disasterous, I lose a reputation, I may lose my site, and my status as a vendor. But if a normal member does the same thing he gets a slap on the wrist, gets the illegal model taken down, and carries on as before.

I agree that there must be proper channels, and these work well for getting the offending products removed. But that's where it stops. What happened to the days when there was a punishment associated with a crime? If the person is found guilty of committing an offence, what is his punishment?

Well, if you want to take it as far as punishing the offender for the crime, you have to take the step and put your money where your mouth is.  If your IP is infringed, and you want to see to it that they get tried and convicted, you need to hire a lawyer, and go through the courts.  That is the only way to make sure that they truly get their criminal punishment.

Other than that, generally, copyright infringers, depending on the circumstances, are usually banned, as are warezers.  Our arm ends there...we can simply ban them from THIS site.  

 Also, FWIW, copyright is generally a civil crime, and not a felony or misdemeanor.  Which means, you can't really be arrested for it (but you can be jailed for not paying fines levied).  

However, that is in the US.  Outside the US, YMMV.

As a Vendor, I have found much peace and serenity by not worrying about it at all.  I make what I make for good people willing to pay for the product. Those who aren't good or willing to pay wouldn't have anyway.  I'm not losing any money.

Another angle:  There's a certain amount of money I hope to make from a product, and so far there's been enough good people to exceed those goals.  Goals exceeded are wins.  Now, if only I could get more ideas for products (and the skill to make them lol.) 

If a pirate were to use my item in a render, it might just give me more sales.  That's another win.

Why worry?  If it's the principal of the thing, I'd suggest meditating on what the "Principal" of anything has ever done for you other than give you stress and drama.

Quote -  Also, FWIW, copyright is generally a civil crime, and not a felony or misdemeanor.  Which means, you can't really be arrested for it (but you can be jailed for not paying fines levied).  

However, that is in the US.  Outside the US, YMMV.

 In most european countries, there is a distinction if the person is a 'public figure' or not. That essentially means that if it is the prime minister, who is stealing your models, you can name him or her, if it is your neighbour, you should better not. It does not matter that much if it is a civil crime or a felony. If you would take a photograph of your neighbour stealing a candybar in the local supermarket (a felony in most countries), and then put the photo with his name under it on a poster for public display, he could sue you for defamation, and the consequences probably would be more inconvenient for you than for him (this would however cost him at least the prize of a candybar :-)

Copyright infringement in the UK is not a crime.  It's a civil offence, which by definition, is not a crime of any sort.  If damages (note, "damages", not "fines") are awarded, the courts have no power to arrest and/or jail someone for non payment.  There'd be a long process of claiming the outstanding damages by sending bailiffs to collect and/or take goods to the value of but ultimately, there's not a lot anyone can do if the bad guy refuses to pay.

As far as obtaining proof of copyright infringement goes, well good luck with that.  There have been several attempts over here by lawyers, tracking IP addresses of Bit Torrent users.  One huge problem is, the IP address is not proof that the owner of that account has any knowledge of wrongdoing on their system.  In fact, if you know even a little about wireless connections, you'll know just how unsecure they are, even with the latest password protocols.

Keep in mind, if you go accusing someone in public, you may well have to provide evidence in court.  When it comes to anything over a computer network, that can be very tricky,

Also, you may want to Google Andrew Crossley and ACS:Law.  Interesting reading there. 

From what I can gather, the law, in the US at least, is still grappling with how to handle a lot of stuff on the internet, libel/slander included. Then, as mentioned, you’re also likely dealing with multiple international jurisdictions which makes it even more complicated. Now the likelihood that you’d get sued is probably pretty small but it’s not zero. Even if you won, getting tied up in court and paying legal fees might be far from worth it. IIRC, you’ve posted about this before, so I know that you feel strongly about it, but ultimately, I think WTB’s philosophy may be more realistic. Who are you going to shame? Indeed, if shaming them is the goal, it’s probably an impossible one to achieve. At any rate, you’d be naming a phantom, a made up user name that the real person can easily change faster than you can post your hall of infamy. That’s not to mention the fact that someone with a similar “name” on the same site or the same “name” on another 3D site might get tarred by the same brush. I seen cases where “User X” was pleading with people to understand that they were not the “User x” that was a notorious troll or whatever.

You can do it and probably get away with it. You probably won’t get sued and you probably won’t piss off the wrong person who may have the knowledge and the determination to come after you in the cyberworld. I’d talk to a lawyer first and make sure my site was very secure before I tried it though.
 

 When I bought my first copy of Poser several years ago, in the same Mom and Pop computer store they were selling warez disks on th same shelf. I didn't know any better then, but I do now, and haven't used those pirated items since. I'm sure there are plenty of people who respect the craftsmanship that goes into developing items, but for each of them, there are probably dozens of kids who just see the free gear. Hopefully a percentage of them will at least credit the creators, so that they have the chance to get future sales out of it. 

"So my question is, if someone has done something like this, am I within my rights to name and shame this person on my own personal site? Am I allowed to let people know that the models they downloaded from this person are illegal downloads?"

I used to go after sites that did similar things with 2D works.   it was no problem not to only have the content removed but to also shut down the site if necessary.  All of the hosting companies that I've contacted when I had to deal with this issue were very cooperative.  I also used to get websites shut down that used Wall of Shames as well.

1. Register your copyright with your country's copyright office.  (A MUST TO REALLY PROTECT YOUR ART)

2. DON'T GET ON THE LEVEL OF SHAMING.  Your customers won't like it and it will set you up for more legal problems. COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT CAN ONLY BE PROVEN IN COURT.  Until this matter goes to court and it is proven by the law that the person stole from you, then you won't be able to name them as the "thief or crook" that stole to you.  To do so, not only you, but also the hosting company can be in trouble for slander or libel depending on how this information is being communicated and the damages it causes.  This is why the news is always saying "Suspects" involved with the stolen goods.  They can't call them criminals until it is decided by the courts this is true. Copyright is also the same way.  If the content was removed from the site then be happy with that because it didn't  result in any legal fees to get it removed.

If you want to protect your work then put on your page or your site, a lists of people and sites that are allowed to distribute your models, and say if this logo doesn't appear on their site or the name isn't on your Permissions list then the owner of that site doesn't have permission to distribute the model, then encourage them to report the site to you.  This way you aren't calling anyone a thief and the customer will know that only a few people are allowed to distribute your model.

Unfortunately customers are sometimes just a crooked as the seller which is why people buy bootleg DVDs and designer bags.  In this case a wall of shame isn't going to put a dent in this person's business.  If anything, it will promote the site so people with like minds will go there to see what other goodies they can get..  That's just my experience with it.

Good luck

As a Vendor I'm not going to loose any sleep over the fact that it happens. Neither am I going to track and hunt down people who do it, I've got better things to do with my time. I'm not loosing any income at all from people who do this, since they never intended to buy it anyway. If it would really bother me that much (which it never will) I would either pull all of my stuff from the internet, but most likely I would do the following....... give all my stuff away for free, that solves the whole problem. Then everyone can download it and use it and distribute it as much as they like.

Perfect solution..... if it bothers you that much, give your stuff away for free and you never have to worry about copyright infringement anymore. Less stress, less sleep lost, less time lost and everyone is happy, especially the content users.

helg, I dunno if this applies to the thieves who stole yer items, but naming them can be bad,
as I'm pretty sure every time anybody reports here the big russian warez site, the result is
thousands of illegal downloads by persons seeing the site name.  hence in this case it makes
things worse when they're named, and they've got no shame - they don't recognise copyright.

All i know is 80 percent of people do not buy Poser nowadays. They download it for free.

Other packages that people are downloading for free:
3D Max
3D Maya
Vue
Poser 6, 7, 8

AND The content too.
Nothing you can do about it.Just be happy.

Besides, all the software including WINDOWS XP, Vista, 7 have been downloaded millions of times in China.

 If you don't have the actual proof, don't spout statistics.  That's insulting to those of us who DO buy not only our programs but the content.  

I am in China on Business right this second. In Changzhou (4 million population) where our factory is,  you can go to a downtown state of the art computer store where they have full displays of Windows XP, Win 7, Autocad, Solidworks, Photoshop, you name it. The displays are even clones of what you might see at Best Buy, Fry's etc. The most expensive title is about  25 USD. The lowest is about 5 USD.

We used to create a product and release it in country and our competitors would go crazy and must have worked 24x7 R&D'ing our designs. Because in as little as 4 weeks, an inferior clone will show up on alibaba, made-in-china.com, etc. The Chinese are masters in the art of R&D. Yet they don't understand the term "Research and Development".  In China, R&D stands for "Rip-off and Duplicate". We don't sell in country anymore because of all the copying. We just make products for Korea, Japan, Taiwan, New Zealand , Austrialia and the EU countries from this plant. We still have the same issues in Korea and Taiwan but not nearly as severe of a problem of our products being R&D'd there.

When you talk to our Chinese office staff about the issue, they can't understand all the fuss.  For example AutoCad just released a Mac version last week at a US cost of 4,000. That is 26,500 RMB. Typical office worker makes 2 to 4 thousand RMB a month. They want all the toys and bells and whistles. The only way they can afford them is thru R&D'd products, is why the general population doesn't understand the issue or care. R&D'ing is part of their culture. It is the norm unfortunately.

The worst Chinese R&D story I know of is the President of General Motors going to the China Autoshow some years ago. He made a statement to the press he was surprised to see a Chevy Silverado Pick-Up on display outside the convention hall. Problem was, it wasn't built by GM.

Sounds like a good idea, until you take into account the disaster that hit 3D Commune shortly before it went under. One delusional person, swearing they have proof of piracy, can create an inescapable morass. Sometimes 'proof' is not what it appears to be. 

The witch hunt syndrome is just too easily spread.  

Quote - All i know is 80 percent of people do not buy Poser nowadays. They download it for free.

Other packages that people are downloading for free:
3D Max
3D Maya
Vue
Poser 6, 7, 8

AND The content too.
Nothing you can do about it.Just be happy.

Besides, all the software including WINDOWS XP, Vista, 7 have been downloaded millions of times in China.

Honestly Joster, you don't know that for a fact. Please don't assume the rest of us haven't paid for our software just because maybe you didn't. I personally have turned in 3 different sites to the creators of Poser in the past 5 years when I saw them selling Poser or giving it away. Most recently some twit on twitter!

not sure how I should look at this. I @#$'d up the latest Daz freebie -  that's why it was withdrawn) when I sent them a note to compare it to a certain comic-book character.
(Well, there were a few steampunks that took umbrage. Now some modeler out there is not gonna be happy with me.

Quote - > Quote - All i know is 80 percent of people do not buy Poser nowadays. They download it for free.

Other packages that people are downloading for free:
3D Max
3D Maya
Vue
Poser 6, 7, 8

AND The content too.
Nothing you can do about it.Just be happy.

Besides, all the software including WINDOWS XP, Vista, 7 have been downloaded millions of times in China.

Honestly Joster, you don't know that for a fact. Please don't assume the rest of us haven't paid for our software just because maybe you didn't. I personally have turned in 3 different sites to the creators of Poser in the past 5 years when I saw them selling Poser or giving it away. Most recently some twit on twitter!

Well i was just saying cause there's alot of piracy in China and some European countries ..so that would kind of be like 80 percent of the population

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - All i know is 80 percent of people do not buy Poser nowadays. They download it for free.

Other packages that people are downloading for free:
3D Max
3D Maya
Vue
Poser 6, 7, 8

AND The content too.
Nothing you can do about it.Just be happy.

Besides, all the software including WINDOWS XP, Vista, 7 have been downloaded millions of times in China.

Honestly Joster, you don't know that for a fact. Please don't assume the rest of us haven't paid for our software just because maybe you didn't. I personally have turned in 3 different sites to the creators of Poser in the past 5 years when I saw them selling Poser or giving it away. Most recently some twit on twitter!

Well i was just saying cause there's alot of piracy in China and some European countries ..so that would kind of be like 80 percent of the population

so you pulled it out of thin air and therefore it's meaningless.

He's close though...... in Europe it's common to download applications and not pay for them, same goes for the content. In Asia you can just buy pirated burned copies in a store as if they were the real product. I'm not sure about the rest of the world, but I know people in the US try to make us believe they're very decent and buy all their software, but we all know the majority doesn't. Most WareZ sites are from former Sovjet countries, so that region isn't taking copyright too serious either.

There are way too many people around who 'own' Photoshop, Poser, 3DMax, Maja and other 3D applications and so on. If you add up the numbers, the amount paid for those is way to high for most people to afford. It certainly makes you wonder...... I don't think all them work for big studios or are teachers/students.

 I think the conversation where we discuss whether or not your fellow membership are warezers needs to stop.  IF, and only IF, you have proof that someone is using warez, contact the company that owns the product.  Until then, let's not have this pseudo-witch hunt in the forum.  On its best face, it's just tacky.  No, not everyone buys their own programs, but one does not need to buy a program at face value to own it legitimately and within the license of the software.  

Quote -  I think the conversation where we discuss whether or not your fellow membership are warezers needs to stop.  IF, and only IF, you have proof that someone is using warez, contact the company that owns the product.  Until then, let's not have this pseudo-witch hunt in the forum.  

This statement is similar to the ones that I would often see stated when walls of shames are put up about people.  I actually watch wall of shames destroy a thriving 2D Pixel community that was profitable for many.  It only took 3 or 4 people from a group of 200+ artists to plant the seeds of doubt.  The walls of shames caused great amounts of stress and in some cases scams where people would try to scare others into paying as much as $5000 to the "original artist" in order to avoid being sued for copyright infringement.  It went through the community like the plague and no one was spared.  The customers were so stressed out and afraid that what the graphics that they were buying  were stolen that they just stopped buying all together.  Many of the customers turned to art as a way to get away from their real life stresses which in some cases consisted of illnesses. So when getting the graphics began to add more stress to their lives, they just stop buying.  There are never any winners when things get this bad, because once a wall of shame goes up then the person on the wall will just put one up about the person who is accusing them of copyright infringement.

Once it starts, you'll never be able to put the monster back in the cage.

If piracy is so common, why am I using Wings (free) and Poser 6 (old)?  I can't believe I'm the only honest person out there.

 That's exactly it.

Once you sow the seeds of discontent, containing them is almost impossible.  I've seen communities of all kinds die because of stuff like this.  

Yes, Poser 8 is $250.  Remember when it went on sale for $1.99?  I do.

Yup, Poser Pro 10 is $500.  Remember the YouTube contest where pretty much everyone who entered won it?

I have Cararra 6 & 7 Pro.  Neither of them did I buy from DAZ.  Neither of them did I pay more than $20 for.  I got them from 3D World Magazine (full version WITH serial.)  Weren't they both about $500 when they were full price?

I used Photoshop 7 for years until I was gifted with CS3 by my brother 2 years ago for my birthday.  

So, yeah, if you look at my income, no, there's NO way I could afford the software I have on my own.  Good thing there are contests, gifts, and full versions on magazines.  There are many, MANY legitimate ways that someone with meager means can get new and upgraded software.  And, then there are some of us who budget and save for these purchases and upgrades.  

Pirating is unethical.  So is insisting that the majority of the community are pirates.  You can assume all you want to...but, remember that old saying about what happens when you assume...

When statistics are being quoted, many of us take into account who is making the statement, and also look for links to the supporting evidence or study that's the basis, to be better able to know whether or not bothering discussing them further.

I think you all misunderstand my point.

Let me explain in better detail.

A user on Renderosity, DAZ3D or any of the Poser sites downloads a commercial model from somewhere. He then adds this model to his freestuff, either here, or on places like ShareCG, or to his own personal site.

The legal owner of the model sees this, e-mails the relevant people, and the model gets removed.

So far so good.

Now, all the people who downloaded that illegal model are not informed that they have downloaded an illegal model. The user who uploaded that model suffers no consequence from his actions, he can carry on as before. He suffers no dent in his reputation, no banning, no financial loss. You, as a user who downloaded that model in good faith, are sitting with an illegal model in your runtime, without knowing it.

So, what is to stop you, or anyone else, doing this? Why not upload a model you "found" on the net to your freestuff? The worst that can happen to you is that the model gets removed, and you may get a warning.

So, I am not talking about some anominous warez site in Chine, I am talking about a user on a Poser site who gets caught red-handed distributing a model he has no right to distribute. I know of at least five members of either Renderosity or DAZ3d who have done this. I no longer download any of their freebies, because I know who they are. You do not know who they are, and you are still downloading their freebies, totally in good faith that these people are making freebies from the goodness of their hearts.

If a merchant did the same thing, selling a model he has no right to sell, the consequences are severe. But for a user who is not a merchant, there is no punishment, and that is where my problem lies.

Helgard

 Who said there is no punishment?  Simply because it doesn't happen in public does not mean it didn't happen.

We can only do so much.  Due to privacy laws, we cannot track every person, by username, who downloads a free item.  As to your specific situation, all I can say is, admin is on it, and it's not over.

I remember when a merchant put up a huge fuss claiming someone stole her textures, and the site (not here) owner agreed. Turned out she was wrong and now she has disappeared from 3D as far as I know. I would not shame people. Just threaten to sue them if they don't stop.

 ok lets settle it right now then..

bring in the Spanish Inquistion!

we shall start alphabetically questioning each user on their software licences, where they go and do they worship Satin and all his little helpers.... 

first up is....

Oh, man! Now I have to shuffle through all these stacks of papers and boxes, making sure I have all those 300-digit numbers! Ceiling Cat will vouch for me... if i can find that emergency can of sardines. 

Just be aware that there have been instances where the accuser is actually the guilty party in these matters. Public humiliation has never been a deterrent to bad behavior, especially on line, where names and identities can change in seconds. It's divisive at best, and destructive more often than not. 

while I can understand about throwing folks to the wolves... if person a, buys from here... then goes and uploads to a website known to give out our stuff sold here for free, and uploads it there, for others using the same name that they purchase with here, are they not kind of busted??

Quote - while I can understand about throwing folks to the wolves... if person a, buys from here... then goes and uploads to a website known to give out our stuff sold here for free, and uploads it there, for others using the same name that they purchase with here, are they not kind of busted??

Just suppose I want to get at another member for some real or imagined slight.  I could go to an upload site, register in their name and upload like crazy.  That would do the job, right?

Seeing a user name somewhere is not proof of anything and that's half the trouble.

Seeing a user name somewhere is not proof of anything and that's half the trouble.

Poser Pros, the SA Incident.

My user name is so overused. I am surprised I was able to register with it here. Hopefully I am giving all of them a bad name and not the other way around. (Just kidding don't beat me up)

My user name ain't all that common but I know of at least one time where a former member here used it to make a bad name for me elsewhere after I banned him. 

i was gonna suggest we could post a scan of our poser DVD to prove we bought it.
ISTR one of the poser vendors accepted that at one time.  but it's too easy to fake IMVHO.
hence we just assume everybody bought it legally.  that's how it works in 'rosity's jurisdiction. 
I ain't a lawyer.

Quote - i was gonna suggest we could post a scan of our poser DVD to prove we bought it.

and since there is a huge number of those new fangled Digital Downloads the idea is, well, useless.

I'm pretty sure the site will take steps to deal with any repeat offenders. Even if they ban them though and sentence them to a virtual public flogging what then? They simply create a new account. IP address - no problem. Even if they required a credit card number - prepaid debit card. Online identity is simply too slippery. I can understand wanting a pound of flesh from the miscreants, but short of finding out where they live and paying them a personal visit, you ain't gonna get it. 

Quote -  Who said there is no punishment?  Simply because it doesn't happen in public does not mean it didn't happen.

I agree with this statement.  The fact that it was removed means that something was said to the person at fault that was strong enough to have them remove the content.  The fact that it was removed from the site also means the admin is doing what is necessary to help keep their site clean as possible from such stuff.  My guess is the only way to truly know what the punishment is is to actually comment the same wrong and to have the site contact us of our illegal actions.

From my experience many professional sites take this issue very seriously because such behavior puts them at risk for being sued. If the site refuses to remove illegal content then they can be sued for the distribution of it because they are allowing the behavior.  I don't know about you, but I don't think any professional site is going to even risk this so they will address the issue as soon as they can.  Which is why I didn't have problems with hosting sites correcting illegal behavior after they were notified of it.

Quote - i was gonna suggest we could post a scan of our poser DVD to prove we bought it.
ISTR one of the poser vendors accepted that at one time.  but it's too easy to fake IMVHO.
hence we just assume everybody bought it legally.  that's how it works in 'rosity's jurisdiction. 
I ain't a lawyer.

I don't have a store bought DVD of Poser Pro 2010!! I won it for free and it was a digital download.... Guess I'm guilty of something... Oh yeah, I'm a Poser...That's the video that won it for me.

"I think you all misunderstand my point." 

And I was hanging on the 'wall of shame' idea and failed to address your clarification - sorry. You're right. If a site simply removes an free item without explanation then members have no way of knowing that there was an IP issue. They may continue downloading items the person posts which could also have issues as you say.  

I'm assuming that they usually give people a 2nd chance. It seems pretty odd that someone would download a freebie and the re-upload it just to take credit when the original is still there. Maybe it was deleted or the hosting site was gone; maybe they made modifications. I'm not saying those are justifications, just that people may have sometimes have less than sinister motives. I can't fault the site for not immediately publicly blacklisting the person and pulling all of their content on the basis of one instance - though I'm sure that probably happens in some places. The 2nd or 3rd offense probably gets you banned, but as I said before, virtual banning is pretty useless IMO.

So, yes, I think I see your point and I agree that it's a problem. The perfect is usually the enemy of the good and sometimes, the good is the enemy of the practical or at least the prudent.

I see your point too. A theif with malicious intent should be punished somehow. If we only lived in a world of black and white where everything was clear, and there was no grey. Life would be so much easier in a perfect world. But we are not perfect and niether is our world, we make mistakes. This is a concern made even more clear in recent years where so many people in prison are now being proven innocent by means of DNA. We were so sure they were guilty, some were even executed.

I would be very careful with this wall of shame. By far the greater crime would be to ruin someones reputation and life wrongfully. This is why we have the system we have, with courts and law laid out with due process. It's not perfect, but far better than vigilante justice. A wall of shame smells with the taint of the vigilante who takes law and justice into their own hands, becoming judge and jury. Deciding for themselves who is guilty and who is not. This soon becomes who I like and who I dont like.

Phantom3D,

Excellent point. The best argument I have heard against it so far.