Probably one of the most common questions is how to fit conforming clothes to actors without getting poke throughs etc. to which the usual answer is to use the morphs, magnets, clothes converter apps etc.

Why are they so troublesome though...?

Isn't an item of conforming clothing effectively a figure in the same way Victoria or Michael is? (albeit a lot less complex)

To get a V4 character set you load the base figure, inject any additional morphs as needed (e.g. ++, elite etc.) and then any character morph destinations (e.g. Tanya, Sira etc. etc.)

Why isn't getting an item of conforming clothing on one of these characters as simple as loading the base clothing figure, injecting any additional morphs to mimic those used in the character figure and then dropping in the same character morph destinations (or copying them from the V4 character)? Wouldn't/shouldn't that then morph the clothing item exactly as required to match perfectly the V4 character?

If you have morphs to change a base V4 character into something else and the item of conforming clothing is designed to mimic the mesh of the base V4 then why isn't it an easy task to simply mimic the same morph results that are used in the V4 character in the item of clothing?

Or am I missing something fundamental here...? ;) I.e. is it simply because the complexity/resolution of the V4 mesh is not present in the item of clothing and therefore there are not enough points to work with to get the item to fit? If so, are there any items of clothing anywhere near the mesh complexity of V4/M4 etc.?

I'd say the problem is most likely due to the clothing not having corresponding morphs with the actor.

And that would be because trying to add in every single available morph for a figure would bloat the file size of the clothing to the point that each would require multiple download files and would potentially take much longer to load into a scene. Not to mention the increased development time to put all those morphs in.

Also, I doubt every clothing creator has all the various unique 3rd-party character morphs available for Vicky or Mike, the DAZ morphs are a given, but how many have, or care to develop for GND4, Pretty Base4, or even Alice?

The entire set of behavior of morph dials in one object "following" the dials in another object (in this case, a conforming garment and a character figure) is pretty much accidental, and was never supported in Poser until version 8.

"Copying" the morphs from the character to the conforming garment is impossible, although they can be converted with software that can do the job.  You can't simply copy the morph data from one model to the other and have it do anything useful because the geometry is different, and will be different for each and every garment.  The fundamental thing you're probably missing is what morphs actually do: they move specific vertices from the default position to a specific location.  Since the vertex order and vertex count is different for every model, the morph data will never be useful when simply copied.

A conforming clothing piece is not necessarily less complex than the target figure.  Obviously a pair of panties is pretty simple, but e.g. if you have a bodysuit with gloves and mask it pretty much IS as complex as the target figure.  If you added more parts to it, e.g. a tail, it could be more complex. 

Conforming only fits the model the clothing was designed for.
Any change on the model after the clothing was made will cause problems.

A rigging change.
A magnet
A morph or morph set.

Everything that was put in the figure, AFTER the clothing was made, will give problems.

Most can be solved with the "copy deformers", WW or other apps.

But evry change from the basic figure will require some sort of corective action !

The answers already made in this thread cover some of the problemsm but I'd like to add a bit to them...

Making co-responding morphs to those in V4, M4, the SM figures, etc. is a bit more complicated than you might think, especially when you consider the effects of multi axis movement and combined morphs in the base figure. The chance to get all of the possible combinations and factors right so the clothing performs perfectly is extremely small. The better constructed the clothing the less problems you will have but then again the time spent to copy/create ALL of that multitude of morphs = money (in the sense of $ per hour wages for the creator) so most of us try for a reasonable compromise of fitting to the most common morphs and to the most common poses, usually poses created with the LIMITS ON or a bit more, and hope that the user, if using extreme or unusual poses, can correct any problems with the morph tool, magnets etc.

Another factor is that clothing is NOT an exact copy to the topography of the base model. To exactly copy the mesh of the base figure is a copyright violation so you must use an original mesh (or start from one of the free use starter meshes). Because the meshes are not exact there will be some differences in the bending geometries and thus the clothing can bend in such a way as to intersect the base figure (poke thru). The fall off zone system used by Poser also has some affect in this area. JCMs are typically used to correct this but again the creator simply can not anticipate EVERY combination of morph and movement that the poser might use. 

Some things that might help is a dynamic collision system, similar to that in the cloth room but usable with conforming clothing, however this would greatly increase the computing poser/time needed. (Think of the sort of calculation/simulation used in the cloth room done after every pose move). True painted weight maps instead of the fall off zones would also help. I expect Smith Micro or DAZ to begin implementing these and other systems in the future, computing power has come a long way in recent years. I think they MIGHT have been added earlier but for the fact that re-writing the software to operate with newer techniques/ technologies will probably ruin any chance of "Backward Compatibility" causing a major negative reaction from the majority of the Poser community.

I would strongly suggest if you more realistic looking clothing, learn the cloth room. Naturally this won't eliminate ALL problems but if you take your time and learn it, and also take your time in the set up, you can get some really exceptional results.

Thanks all for the replies, much appreciated.

One other comment, which I did not see mentioned in my quick read...

Some figures require you apply Fit Morphs to the clothing after conforming to the figure. G2 Figures I think were the first to have this, but it is used with others.

ratscloset, your right, I forgot about that,  and it;s an excellent point. However, the user should read the "ReadMe" files first.

Some buyers I've done commission work for and some Brokerages required that the clothing be constructed and morphed in such a way as to need the Magnetizing Poses in order to pass testing. In my own products, given the option, I tend to try and make my own JCMs so that the clothing operates without the Magnetizing Poses, making the clothing self contained. I do identify this in my ReadMe's for products made after the Magnetize Poses came into use, and I've noticed other vendors doing this as well.

It;s always best to check the ReadMe's for information and tips on conforming clothing use.

And thanks for asking the question, Magic_Man. It's one I've wondered about myself.