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Poser - OFFICIAL F.A.Q (Last Updated: 2024 Nov 29 7:57 am)



Subject: Antonia - Opinions?


Faery_Light ( ) posted Tue, 22 March 2011 at 11:44 PM

@sazzyasca:I don't think it is that much of a stretching issue.

I would'nt mind just a bit of postwork on it as I usually do some post on my renders anyway. :)


Let me introduce you to my multiple personalities. :)
     BluEcho...Faery_Light...Faery_Souls.


lesbentley ( ) posted Wed, 23 March 2011 at 12:27 AM

Quote - This is the issue I'm talking about.

It looks good to me! 👍


lesbentley ( ) posted Wed, 23 March 2011 at 1:08 AM

Good news on the Flo Hair AP. Two testers have now confirmed that it is working correctly in DAZ Studio. There are a couple of small issues to do with scaling that I am going to fix, then if no more problems come to light it should be ready for public release by the weekend. Of course it will also depend on when EnglishBob can find time to post it on his site.

A big thanks to bob1965. The changes that make it work in D|S are entirely down to him.


Thalek ( ) posted Wed, 23 March 2011 at 1:23 AM
Online Now!

Quote - This is the issue I'm talking about.

I'm not even seeing the issue you're talking about.  And if it sometimes happens with real humans as well, I'd say you've achieved your goal of a realistic eye liner.


fivecat ( ) posted Wed, 23 March 2011 at 1:27 AM

 Playing with Antonia again. My morphs and the V3 Soraya texture. Click for full size.

 


edgeverse ( ) posted Wed, 23 March 2011 at 6:07 AM

wow fivecat. very good render.

3D Digital Comics & Art/My homepage
http://www.edgeversemedia.com


Rogerbee1 ( ) posted Wed, 23 March 2011 at 6:16 AM

Yeah,

Very nice, just wish an ebot would have reminded me about this thread sooner. It seems like the full Antonia has been out for a while now.

CHEERS!


NanetteTredoux ( ) posted Wed, 23 March 2011 at 12:50 PM

Alert: there is an outfit for Antonia at Poserworld. Pants, top and very nice boots.

Poser 11 Pro, Windows 10

Auxiliary Apps: Blender 2.79, Vue Complete 2016, Genetica 4 Pro, Gliftex 11 Pro, CorelDraw Suite X6, Comic Life 2, Project Dogwaffle Howler 8, Stitch Witch


EnglishBob ( ) posted Wed, 23 March 2011 at 7:33 PM

Attached Link: Flo Hair for Antonia (3.6MB)

Testing of the Flo Hair for Antonia continues, but we believe it's reached a stage where it can be thrown open to all. Just bear in mind that this is only a "release candidate", and will only become an official release after Thursday, if no problems are found.


ThespiSis ( ) posted Wed, 23 March 2011 at 8:21 PM

Sorry I'm so late to the game on the latest beta, but it works great, and I've got a render going now in Lux.


Faery_Light ( ) posted Wed, 23 March 2011 at 9:18 PM

I had hoped to get the Flo-hair textures into mc6 and pz2 files today but Mom and I had a doctor's appointment and it's been a busy day.

If all goes well maybe tomorrow I'll get them finished on that part.  Then I'll have the matching pngs to do.

Possibly by the weekend I can upload them to the free site. :)


Let me introduce you to my multiple personalities. :)
     BluEcho...Faery_Light...Faery_Souls.


ThespiSis ( ) posted Thu, 24 March 2011 at 6:12 AM

file_467114.jpg

V3 Drusilla and Flo Hair.


Faery_Light ( ) posted Thu, 24 March 2011 at 9:48 AM

@ThespiSis:Looks good. :)


Let me introduce you to my multiple personalities. :)
     BluEcho...Faery_Light...Faery_Souls.


lesbentley ( ) posted Thu, 24 March 2011 at 4:09 PM · edited Thu, 24 March 2011 at 4:11 PM

Re: Flo Hir AP.

Thanks to all those who participated in testing of the Flo Hair AP. As far as I am aware, the hair is working as intended in both D|S and Poser. If there ara any bug reports, suggestions, or other comments, now is the last chance to speak up. As of midnight tonight (UK time), the testing will be deemed to be complete, and the release candidate will become the official version, available for public download shortly there after.

We do want this to be a good product, free of bugs, and working as well as can be reasonably expected. So if there is anything at all that you are unsure of, or feel could be improved, please let me  know.

Les.


edgeverse ( ) posted Thu, 24 March 2011 at 4:23 PM

Welcome. Thank you for the chance.

3D Digital Comics & Art/My homepage
http://www.edgeversemedia.com


Faery_Light ( ) posted Thu, 24 March 2011 at 4:29 PM

thank you for making it to fit Antonia and allowing me to do some textures for it.

The textures are finished and uploaded to the free site.   They are in the Textures Directory.

I'll be back to give a direct link later, my brother is due home soon, he has been released from the hospital. :)


Let me introduce you to my multiple personalities. :)
     BluEcho...Faery_Light...Faery_Souls.


bagoas ( ) posted Thu, 24 March 2011 at 5:00 PM

Thanks all you who made it for Flo hair. I do not have much time these days to play around in Poser, but this will certainly be of use one day.


lesbentley ( ) posted Thu, 24 March 2011 at 5:13 PM

BluEcho,

Thanks for doing the new textures ror the Flo hair. I will look forwards to trying them out.


Faery_Light ( ) posted Thu, 24 March 2011 at 5:13 PM

Attached Link: BE4Flo-Hair-AP Textures

Direct link to the flohair textures set, enjoy. :)


Let me introduce you to my multiple personalities. :)
     BluEcho...Faery_Light...Faery_Souls.


SteveJax ( ) posted Thu, 24 March 2011 at 7:38 PM

Thanks for all the great Antonia Stuff!


sazzyazzca ( ) posted Fri, 25 March 2011 at 3:05 AM

Thank you for the hair and textures!


shuy ( ) posted Fri, 25 March 2011 at 4:35 PM

file_467145.jpg

Hair looks great. Just like after bath.

I'm trying create clothes suitable to wet hair but I need little more time.


shuy ( ) posted Sat, 26 March 2011 at 1:21 PM · edited Sat, 26 March 2011 at 1:22 PM

file_467164.jpg

Still not perfect but I found it acceptable.

Unless you create extreme pose should works well.

http://www.bluecho4u3d.com/Antonia/database/sites/clothing_models.htm

I'll do my best to keep Antonia natural and realistic. I'm going to create few maps for textures - freckless, moles, stretchmarks etc.

I hope that you do not make her next warrior princes :)
She can wear some casual, unformal dress sometimes.


SaintFox ( ) posted Sat, 26 March 2011 at 2:58 PM

That's a VERY nice bathcoat, especially with those stripes it looks as if Antonia poked in her boyfriend's locker (girls love to do this!).

I'm not always right, but my mistakes are more interesting!

And I am not strange, I am Limited Edition!

Are you ready for Antonia? Get her textures here:



The Home Of The Living Dolls


lesbentley ( ) posted Sat, 26 March 2011 at 6:30 PM

Very nice bathrobe drapak12.


SaintFox ( ) posted Sat, 26 March 2011 at 7:21 PM

Yep, that was the word I was looking for bathrobe...

I'm not always right, but my mistakes are more interesting!

And I am not strange, I am Limited Edition!

Are you ready for Antonia? Get her textures here:



The Home Of The Living Dolls


EnglishBob ( ) posted Mon, 28 March 2011 at 4:09 AM

Attached Link: http://www.philc.net/ShoeDesigner_page4.php

Another heads-up for PhilC fans: Antonia now has Shoe Designer support.

There have been 42 downloads of the Flo Hair for Antonia so far - an auspicious figure, and all from the link in this thread. I had intended to get a download page up at the weekend, but Real Life (TM) intervened. BluEcho, will your hair textures appear on the Antonia site in due course? I'd like to link to them if I may.


Faery_Light ( ) posted Mon, 28 March 2011 at 7:28 AM

Attached Link: BE4Flo-Hair Textures

Englishbob, they are on the Antonia Freesite in the Textures directory now. :)


Let me introduce you to my multiple personalities. :)
     BluEcho...Faery_Light...Faery_Souls.


lesbentley ( ) posted Tue, 29 March 2011 at 7:21 PM

Flo Hair AP

EnglishBob has now posted the freebie Flo Hair for Antonia on his web site.

For those of you who downloaded the 'release candidate' version, nothing has changed since then, so there is no need to re-download it. If you have a file in your hair library with the name "FloHair-AP", and without "BETA" in the name, and with a thumbnail, then you should have the latest version.

Thanks to all those who participated in the testing. A special thanks to Bob1965 for making it compatible with D|S, and to BluEcho for making extra textures (separate download), and of course thanks to EnglishBob and Heidi for making the original version.


SaintFox ( ) posted Tue, 29 March 2011 at 7:50 PM

Ahhh... now it has the thumbnail it deserves. Thanks for the heads-up!!

I'm not always right, but my mistakes are more interesting!

And I am not strange, I am Limited Edition!

Are you ready for Antonia? Get her textures here:



The Home Of The Living Dolls


sazzyazzca ( ) posted Wed, 30 March 2011 at 10:45 AM

file_467337.jpg

Disregard funky lighting and pokethrough ...just wanted to show the sense of movement you can achieve with the morphs in the Flo Hair.


SaintFox ( ) posted Wed, 30 March 2011 at 1:52 PM

I like the lighting here, it matches the scene - and her eyes are able to melt any heart like icecream.

I'm not always right, but my mistakes are more interesting!

And I am not strange, I am Limited Edition!

Are you ready for Antonia? Get her textures here:



The Home Of The Living Dolls


SteveJax ( ) posted Wed, 30 March 2011 at 2:23 PM

I like the whole scene. Very Mata Hari ish....


SaintFox ( ) posted Wed, 30 March 2011 at 2:36 PM

...oh and look at this litte crease above the hip - too cute!!

 

By the way, folks: I just talked to Leo who is still and at least for three more weeks in the rehab center. He wanted me to pass big hugs to you all, the guys here may imagine that bone-cracking hug with lots of friendly slapping on the back men enjoy so much 😉

A fellow-merchant and friend was able to find some nice person willing to send him a laptop for the weeks in the rehab and he will get himself a surf-stick so that he can go online and post a "Hello" by himself soon. The clinic charges more than two Euros for an hour at the internet terminal - and this terminal seems to share it's connection with any telephone and computer in the clinic - it's pretty much as a blinker: On-off-on-off) and this is far too expensive for long internet sessions.

The rehab process is very, very slow and IMHO it's more about learning to live with the handicaps but about changing something about them. But we learnt from the doctors and your replies that time seems to have a great influence and so we are patient.

I'm not always right, but my mistakes are more interesting!

And I am not strange, I am Limited Edition!

Are you ready for Antonia? Get her textures here:



The Home Of The Living Dolls


shuy ( ) posted Wed, 30 March 2011 at 2:56 PM

Rehab is slow, but this is only "sport" with real reward. It gives more then olympic medal which is piece of brass.


Faery_Light ( ) posted Wed, 30 March 2011 at 3:02 PM

Saintfox, I know how slow the rehab goes. but tell him we are all cheering for a speedy recovery.

Sazzyasca, that is a lovely image. I like the way Flo-hair moves too. :)


Let me introduce you to my multiple personalities. :)
     BluEcho...Faery_Light...Faery_Souls.


SaintFox ( ) posted Wed, 30 March 2011 at 3:13 PM

I like that aphorism about sport with real reward - in fact the sport part seems to be the biggest fun for Leo - and swimming with frog-gloves. It can hardly be called sport to swim with that (except that the challenge would be not to drown while laughing) but it makes swimming very effective.

If you do not know what I am talking about:

I'm not always right, but my mistakes are more interesting!

And I am not strange, I am Limited Edition!

Are you ready for Antonia? Get her textures here:



The Home Of The Living Dolls


shuy ( ) posted Wed, 30 March 2011 at 3:36 PM

Sport is aginst all achievments of civilisation :) 100000 yrs our species did all his best to avoid physical effort sice we discovered fire and wheel.

BTW this gloves have very nice mesh and material :) Looks like render not real pict. I think that I just found inspiration, but do not know exactly how can I use it.


SaintFox ( ) posted Wed, 30 March 2011 at 4:17 PM

As there are froglegs available for Victoria (and for Hiro I think) why not give her some nice and elegant hands 😉

I am completely with you about sports, I only like sports where you do not recognize that you do something good for your body: Dancing for instance is such a thing (ahhh... Tango!) and swimming just out of fun because it's so hot outside, playing with kids...

I'm not always right, but my mistakes are more interesting!

And I am not strange, I am Limited Edition!

Are you ready for Antonia? Get her textures here:



The Home Of The Living Dolls


shante ( ) posted Wed, 30 March 2011 at 4:51 PM

Quote - Sport is aginst all achievments of civilisation :) 100000 yrs our species did all his best to avoid physical effort sice we discovered fire and wheel.

BTW this gloves have very nice mesh and material :) Looks like render not real pict. I think that I just found inspiration, but do not know exactly how can I use it.

 

LOL
F.E.T.i.S.H.!

Matching booties for those clumsy walks blidfolded and a matching Plak un Ledder suit with zippers in ALL the right (an left!) places and Voila the stuff Poser world is made for. Now who wants to size up Antonia for this off world Gala Froggie Suit!  LOLOL


shante ( ) posted Wed, 30 March 2011 at 5:00 PM

Quote - ...oh and look at this litte crease above the hip - too cute!!

 

By the way, folks: I just talked to Leo who is still and at least for three more weeks in the rehab center. He wanted me to pass big hugs to you all, the guys here may imagine that bone-cracking hug with lots of friendly slapping on the back men enjoy so much 😉

A fellow-merchant and friend was able to find some nice person willing to send him a laptop for the weeks in the rehab and he will get himself a surf-stick so that he can go online and post a "Hello" by himself soon. The clinic charges more than two Euros for an hour at the internet terminal - and this terminal seems to share it's connection with any telephone and computer in the clinic - it's pretty much as a blinker: On-off-on-off) and this is far too expensive for long internet sessions.

The rehab process is very, very slow and IMHO it's more about learning to live with the handicaps but about changing something about them. But we learnt from the doctors and your replies that time seems to have a great influence and so we are patient.

 

Years ago I ruptured a disc in my lower back. Within less than two months I was ordered back to work short one month of completing my 3 month physical therapy. My disc went again before the year was up. The second time it happened I got fired when the personnel manager found out I ws going to be out for three months to completely finish my phyical regime or I would wind up in a wheelchair.

It slips or ruptures again and again now an has for years. For years since I have been in and out of physical therapy and sports therapy facilties trying to keep my core strength up in a supervised environment (out of fear of not doing an exercise right and causing more injury).

i had insurance then.I don't any longer. My back is worse someimes again as ever but no moe therapy for me. I just deal with the pain. Amazing what the body gets used to. Of course I also aggrvate the nerves and run the risk of becoming chair ridden but...........

So yes, physical therapy is painful and lengthy depending on the injury and painfully tedious and EXPENSIVE. He will have to be dedicated and WANT to get back to a semblance of normalcy for it to work. Is he driven?

Best wish to him from one who understands the pain and frustration.....to some degree of course.


SaintFox ( ) posted Wed, 30 March 2011 at 5:17 PM

Don't get me wrong: The frustration is not as bad as you think. It's more a man who used to say: "Where's the piano that has to be moved?" who now is not able to run or jump. He's not used to it and it takes time to get used to the fact that you are now more or less handicapped.

I hear you about health securance, been there as well and I am glad that we where able to get back into it. But rehab has nothing to do with the health securance here, you apply for it at the pension office (as long as you are not selfemployed or only partly selfemployed you are a member there). I remember times when it was almost impossible to fire an employee who was sick. Unfortunatly the laws who prevented people from this are slowly defined down because there's so much pressure from the site of the economy. It was in fact a good law because you either got a reha to get well again or where forced to retire (and then got pension). Well... times got rough - the only hope I have is the often conjured skilled worker shortage!

I'm not always right, but my mistakes are more interesting!

And I am not strange, I am Limited Edition!

Are you ready for Antonia? Get her textures here:



The Home Of The Living Dolls


shante ( ) posted Wed, 30 March 2011 at 5:42 PM

I used to do long distance bicycling and can't any more. I hate looking at my three bikes and inddoor trainer rig but just can't seem to part with them.

I was an avid indoor and outdoor roller skater and then Rollerblader, skating on paved walking trails that weaved through woods from Reston Virginia to Washington, DC.....a good LONG skate let me tell you. I can't any more.

I used to horseback ride. Forget that though I still love the sight and smell.....yeah the smell!.....of horses.

Haven't danced in ages and there was a time what now seems like ages ago when I was out EVERY NIGHT for years! God I miss that.  :(

I can no longer bend over my drawing board because I need one hand to prop me up and two hands to work and, well, I was only granted two at birth so no more drawing on drawing boards or tables or desks. Thank Goodness for my Macs though as much as I like digital I terribly miss my pencils and technical pens, and tech rulers and airbrushes and acrylics.

I have difficulty sometimes washing dishes and my diswasher broke so imagine having to do dishes twice a day. Hurts real bad some days.

I sometimes have difficulty getting out of bed or off the toilet or out of a chair or couch. I have difficulty bending over to tie my shows or pull up my pants sometimes when it gets bad.

My sister calls me Handicapped and is trying without success to get m to apply for assistance which I am real reluctant to do for fear of the damn stigma. I just figure  as long as I am not bed ridden or in a wheelchair....YET....I get by. I use a TENS unit to manage my pain and/or non-prescription pain killers and thank God for that....they are cheaper!....and have with thime learned to accept the fate and let the things of youth fall away s I move slowly forward.

Yeah, it definitely takes a lot out of your ego when you find that everything you used to take for granted doing you can no longer do........use your imaginations what else becomes a problem and better understand what your man has to go through.

But, I ask again: is he driven?


sazzyazzca ( ) posted Wed, 30 March 2011 at 6:13 PM

The human will is amazing. At work I have opportunity to learn quite a bit about medical issues and have encountered many people who have experienced strokes, some of them multiple strokes. In some of those cases, the strokes were severe enough that the patients were told they would never walk again. Although it does happen sometimes that the worst case scenario comes to pass, in the vast majority of the severe stroke cases I have personally known about, the people have indeed surprised their doctors and recovered much better than predicted. I also know that each of those individuals was a strong-willed and stubborn person who refused to give in. I have great faith that Leo will make an excellent recovery!

 

Thank for the nice comments on the image. :D

I also very much like the crease at the waist. I really didn't play much with posing her before and now that I am, I really love the way she bends and all her JCMs.


SaintFox ( ) posted Wed, 30 March 2011 at 6:55 PM · edited Wed, 30 March 2011 at 6:56 PM

Believe me, Shante, I know exactly what he feels as I am handicaped since some years as well. A painful skin desease and a hypermobile spine kept me from dancing since some years (the only sport I really like) - and of course from some other things. I dance standard and latin since I am 9 - in other words: since 40 years (while not counting the last ones where I had to give up on it). You can as well say that dancing is my second nature, yep, IS, still.

I think the first thing that Leo said when I visited him in the emergency room was: Well, forget about motorbiking! I feel very pity for him as he just managed to get an old BMW, a real oldtimer, that he wanted to restaurate a bit and then enjoy during the season. He is a biker since he was 18, just some years without a bike because we where close on budget. And then that BMW (called Gummikuh/rubbercow amongst fans), for free... and then this. As said: I feel his pain!! But so far we say: Either things change or we will build up a team with a sidecar (a Gespann in german, I couldn't find the correct english term).

I would gladly answer your question about being driven but I do not understand what you mean as driven has so many meanings when I look it up. Maybe you can be more specific?

@sazzyazzca: stubborn is exactly the right word - and I am glad that Leo takes avantage of each and everything, not only physical training but the psychotherapeutic help as well, relax training, Qui Gong and whatnot. This will be of great help to deal with blood pressure, pain and handicaps.

I'm not always right, but my mistakes are more interesting!

And I am not strange, I am Limited Edition!

Are you ready for Antonia? Get her textures here:



The Home Of The Living Dolls


SaintFox ( ) posted Wed, 30 March 2011 at 7:10 PM · edited Wed, 30 March 2011 at 7:10 PM

Just for the case that you mean if he has to be carried in a wheelchair: No, not any longer. In fact the progress was that:

  1. day: Laying in bed

  2. day: Standing in front of the bed, able to walk while holding the bar on the bed

  3. day: driving in a wheelchair (on his own)

  4. day: walking with a rollator

5-6. day: Walking free

7.-9. day: able to walk downstairs

  1. day: able to walk upstairs

 

...as Leo can not feel one leg but only part of the sole of the feet and his sense of balance is damaged this is what we have so far since everything happened three weeks ago. The rest will be a tedious process.

I'm not always right, but my mistakes are more interesting!

And I am not strange, I am Limited Edition!

Are you ready for Antonia? Get her textures here:



The Home Of The Living Dolls


Thalek ( ) posted Wed, 30 March 2011 at 8:13 PM
Online Now!

Shante, I can understand not wanting to apply for handicapped status because of the stigma.  I did not wish to, either.  Worse, my handicap is clinical depression, so it's invisible.  And there are a lot of people who feel that depression is something you can just "be a man" and get over it.  It isn't.

I do not like thinking of myself as handicapped.  Sometimes, I even forget that I am; it's invisible to me, too, sometimes.  And then I find myself unable to get out of bed or perform something routine and I get smacked in the face with it again.

Life became somewhat easier after I applied for Social Security disability and I satisfied their requirements.  But I'd really rather be self-sufficient again.  Given the choice.

I also wish more of you people with back pain could consult with my former roommate's doctor.  Jim was going to be in a wheelchair within six months to a year, the way he was degenerating.  Three years after surgery, he's a body builder.  He still can't do some things, and some of the nerves in his legs are still atrophied, but he's in no danger of being confined to a wheelchair any more.


sazzyazzca ( ) posted Thu, 31 March 2011 at 12:36 AM

I have an almost 80 year old father who was told 40+ years ago that he seriously needed back surgery but that his chance spending the rest of his life in a wheelchair was 50/50. He declined surgery and suffered the pain. He had a massive heart attack 23 years ago and was fortunate enough to be at the emergency room of a research hospital where the option was to give him what was then an experimental drug. I made a choice, signed the papers and crossed my fingers. Fortunately, he survived and 2 days later had a quadruple bypass. He is the second longest survivor in the province of a quadruple bypass, and has been taking part in a study for quite a few years now on post-operative heart patients. Then a hip replacement and hernia repair, both needed due to the back injury seriously throwing things off whack. His secret? He's stubborn and he refuses to let his conditions overcome him. He stays mobile and on the go. Despite being bent over and hobbling, every day in summer he climbs up the ladder to go water the rooftop planters. In winter he still shovels every day. If we get up at 5 am to beat him to it, he'll have it done at 4:30 am the next day, so we just let him do it. His tests always come back showing a very grave and deteriorating situation, and yet he looks quite a bit younger than his age and just keeps ticking, no matter how slow he sometimes has to go due to the pain. Keeping busy and as mobile as possible is one of the best things a person can do for their health.


Thalek ( ) posted Thu, 31 March 2011 at 1:48 AM
Online Now!

True.


shante ( ) posted Thu, 31 March 2011 at 7:47 AM

Quote - I have an almost 80 year old father who was told 40+ years ago that he seriously needed back surgery but that his chance spending the rest of his life in a wheelchair was 50/50. He declined surgery and suffered the pain. He had a massive heart attack 23 years ago and was fortunate enough to be at the emergency room of a research hospital where the option was to give him what was then an experimental drug. I made a choice, signed the papers and crossed my fingers. Fortunately, he survived and 2 days later had a quadruple bypass. He is the second longest survivor in the province of a quadruple bypass, and has been taking part in a study for quite a few years now on post-operative heart patients. Then a hip replacement and hernia repair, both needed due to the back injury seriously throwing things off whack. His secret? He's stubborn and he refuses to let his conditions overcome him. He stays mobile and on the go. Despite being bent over and hobbling, every day in summer he climbs up the ladder to go water the rooftop planters. In winter he still shovels every day. If we get up at 5 am to beat him to it, he'll have it done at 4:30 am the next day, so we just let him do it. His tests always come back showing a very grave and deteriorating situation, and yet he looks quite a bit younger than his age and just keeps ticking, no matter how slow he sometimes has to go due to the pain. Keeping busy and as mobile as possible is one of the best things a person can do for their health.

 

This is not only in answer to you about your dad and being mobile but also to SaintFox in answer to my question 9WHICH BTW DOES NOT NEED TO BE ANSWERED!) your dad IS DRIVEN!

His spirit does not flag his desire and passions are not quashed and he will not surrender. He is DRIVEN!

Do you understand my question SaintFox? Is he DRIVEN!

If he is he might drive himself to a quicker recovery and who knows, even back onto his classic motorcycle (with or without....yes it was right....SIDECAR!

Boy have we griched this thread. Sorry ODF and the rest of you. Please let us continue!


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