Well I made a fix Pose for the problem, but I am going to have to figure out what needs to be done to fix it permenently.

Here is the Antonia WM cr2  I will dig around and try some ideas till I find the fix. unless one of you do it first.

ANTONIA WM CR2

The weight-mapping version doesn't work in Poser versions below Poser 9, or at least the weight-mapping doesn't, correct?

It'll be awhile before I can join the next generation.

Thanks, been looking forward to trying out a good WM character, and your header on your forum looks awesome btw.

Quote - The weight-mapping version doesn't work in Poser versions below Poser 9, or at least the weight-mapping doesn't, correct?

It'll be awhile before I can join the next generation.

That's correct.

OK I think I have figured out the problem. The weight maps are not saving for the right side helper bones.  But on my figure Brad the weight maps for the helper bones do save for both sides. 

The only difference I can find is that in Brad he has small pieces of geometry to represent the helper bones (something I can click for work) Antonia does not, I never put any in.

So the solution will be to put in some small pieces of geometry to represent the helper bones in Antonia. I will do this just long enough to get the maps to save into the cr2 for the right side helper bones, then once the maps are in the cr2 and we are all done with the maps I can delete the geometry pieces.

Should work.  :)

Yee haw! I figured out the problem so its all fixed.

Here it is.  If you find any pose related problems please let me know

awesome! thanks so much!!

does that mean you can now make a weightmapped V4 and V3?

Love esther

Heyhey! I've been off for an odd week and look what I find here now! A weight-mapped Antonia and (after all these years!) an explanation on the alternate channels fit even for my limited mental capacities.

Diogenes and BagginsBill, you are giants!

Heyhey! I've been off for an odd week and look what I find here now! A weight-mapped Antonia and (after all these years!) an explanation on the alternate channels fit even for my limited mental capacities.

Diogenes and BagginsBill, you are giants!

Diaogenes, that's awesome! I am not even done with trying out SSS and here you go and give us Antonia, weight-mapped. I can tell you that I feel like a child under the christmas tree, hugging all the new toys!!

Quote - does that mean you can now make a weightmapped V4 and V3?

Love esther

What use would weightmapped Victoria's be now there is weightmapped Antonia? LOL!

I am not sure if you all realize the impact. Porting clothes should be much easier. See this thread in the Poser9/Pro2012 furum ar RDNA. There may be a sales pitch in this demo, but still. 

A while ago I started on a pose to make V3 morphing clothes geometrically fit Antonia as a basis for porting clothing that had the support of textures etc. First I got stuck in the JCM's, then there was the Wardrobe Wizard confusion, and then my job situation went berserk (crisis, what crisis?) and took my attention. Looks like it is time to revisit that project and try again.

What use would weightmapped Victoria's be now there is weightmapped Antonia? LOL!

That was mean... But nevertheless correct!

(crisis, what crisis?)

Best Supertram album ever (well, yes, "Even in the quietest moments" is almost as great) but I hope that your personal crisis is sorted out!*

Hehe.

Quote - ... but I hope that your personal crisis is sorted out!*

It did, thank you. The quiet spring I had hoped for did not come. I had more work on my desk than ever. But in the end it did work out, I hope. Back in the office on Thursday I will see the new piles.

Diogenes, if no one reports any errors and AntoniaWM2 "goes gold" - would you please add her to the collection on Antonia's freebie site?

...and now I go and try her out!

I just found that the weightmapped Antonia uses the A-mapping - and unfortunatly forgot about the "trick" on how to connect her to the other (standard) mapping. A kind of getting-old-moment... would someone help me out?

With arms up further up on the shoulder, next to the neck, the original figure shows the rise of the muscle, where the neck/collar area of the WM figure, on the right, looks too low and the neck points out oddly.

Based on what I have seen here, I would say both Antonia 1.2 and the weight mapped versions have their strong points and their flaws. Knees and elbows look better in the JCM version. Buttocks look better with weight mapping. The situation next to the neck is a bit ambiguous. Issue becomes serious fairly extreme arm lifts. Clothing will be behaving there very different from the skin anyway. 

If it is for ease of fitting clothing, I would think a hybrid Antonia would be worth considering. Thigh area is a prime source of trouble, not in the least because it is the area mostly covered by clothing. Also, there is the interference beteen left and tight thigh, and 3 for each connection axises of rotation to deal with. Bending at elbows and knees is more simple. They have only one axis of rotation that matters and part of a simple chain of members.

My bet would be body, shoulders and thighs weight mapped, and keep JCM's for knees and elbows.

Quote - I just found that the weightmapped Antonia uses the A-mapping - and unfortunatly forgot about the "trick" on how to connect her to the other (standard) mapping. A kind of getting-old-moment... would someone help me out?

The weightmapped version uses the standard geometry file for the 'A-mapping, so maybe you just need to change the name of the geometry file.  I used the .cr2 file 'as is'.

Quote - The original figure, on the left, has a strange side turn in the right buttock. The WM figure does not have this streak, but buttocks still look a bit like they are 'glued together'. 

With arms up further up on the shoulder, next to the neck, the original figure shows the rise of the muscle, where the neck/collar area of the WM figure, on the right, looks too low and the neck points out oddly.

Based on what I have seen here, I would say both Antonia 1.2 and the weight mapped versions have their strong points and their flaws. Knees and elbows look better in the JCM version. Buttocks look better with weight mapping. The situation next to the neck is a bit ambiguous. Issue becomes serious fairly extreme arm lifts. Clothing will be behaving there very different from the skin anyway. 

If it is for ease of fitting clothing, I would think a hybrid Antonia would be worth considering. Thigh area is a prime source of trouble, not in the least because it is the area mostly covered by clothing. Also, there is the interference beteen left and tight thigh, and 3 for each connection axises of rotation to deal with. Bending at elbows and knees is more simple. They have only one axis of rotation that matters and part of a simple chain of members.

My bet would be body, shoulders and thighs weight mapped, and keep JCM's for knees and elbows.

Arms/neck area must looks weird, because it is impossible to raise arms this way. Even if you create perfect JMC or WM it will looks unnatural. Human can raise arm about 20-30 degrees and it deform almost whole chest and back. If you try rise your arm (not Antonia's), you must according to Poser setting - twist collar and swing arm.

Few months ago I've tried to change V4 bones setting joint center of collars in the middle of chest. I wanted to make bone which deform chest, but it was too difficult. In adult magazines you can see that models very often rise arms. It lift breasts and makes them less saggy. Anyway it shows how big part of human body is deformed by raising arm.

To be honest most of rigging should have additional JMCs. Sometimes quite far from joint. For example bending thigh deform back of knee and calf. Bending elbow is impossible without bulging biceps etc. I think it is impossible to create natural rigging system in Poser. Before you finish one figure they create new Poser version with new rigging :)

Now I'm going to check with my wife which buttocks looks better :)

Once the geometry is sorted out, making a the pant conforming was just plain sailing.

Of course the clearance between the leg and the pant that is there in zero position also shows in bent position, which for this gauzy pant is still to be correced. But the main fact is that the conforming is there!  

Thanks bagoas - of course this was the way to do it.... As said: It's already late and we had a fine but very long day on the fishkeeper's fair in Duisburg yesterday that still stucks in my bones (and brain as it seems).

I just fitted some Aiko 3 clothing to Antonia, a kind of short bloomers and a little top and I am amazed how well they move with the body. As I had problems to get them fitted to Antonia I used WW2 to fit it and took the resulting geometry to the setup room. Works like a charm and the clothes move better as with WW2 alone.

@shuy:

The aim of the exercise was to see difference between AntoniaWM and Antonia 1.2.

I agree that muscle bulging etc. is not normally accounted for. Most Poser figures do not have modeled muscles. P5 Don had named musle morphs, but he is no longer in the Poser deliveries.

Maybe he wil be digged form the dirt, one day, and have a control system based on weight and pose.

Thanks bagoas, I can fix that neck by tweaking the maps so it is good you found it. Keep going and point out any problems you notice. That is what I intended with this first release.  :)

Clothing should become much easier to fit I hope.

SaintFox I will make a cr2 for the other UV mapping as well, once this one is all fixed for any problems, I can make the second one easily by changing the figure res line in the cr2 (there are two figure res lines in a cr2) to point to the other obj file. 

Yeah, it's too early to talk about a hybrid. Diogenes is a master and I suspect he'll get the weight maps at least as good as the JCMs for most things by the time he's done. But at least we have something to use and evaluate for the time being.

Thanks Diogenes, I already pointed your version to the other mapping and now have them both I am wondering as well how I could forget this within two day (I just did this some days ago with a prop). But you may know this: There are days where you try to remember something and just find a vacuum where the memory was stored a while ago :laugh:

I am still surprised how many new tools we've got with Poser 2012 - much much more than the "faster and better and a little new option for light" versions we where used to. Not that I do not like faster and better and new lighting options. But this is so much more!! The only thing that still doesn't work as expected is the queue manager. Now it does render IDL perfectly but fails on SSS...

Quote - I am wondering as well how I could forget this within two day (I just did this some days ago with a prop). But you may know this: There are days where you try to remember something and just find a vacuum where the memory was stored a while ago :laugh:

Still kicking self for the whole Spawn Morph Target fiasco

Yeah, I really know the feeling LOL

Don't be too hard to yourself, we all have such moments and if someone takes the time to read the whole thread (again) one day he will for sure have moments where he thinks "This SaintFox-someone has a real talent for supersilly questions...". I try to see it like my mother always did: People who do nothing do nothing wrong. People who do a lot do a lot of mistakes.

This can be translated to thinking and learning as well

My mother said differently specifically about me when I was a kid: "Good GOD why do you ask so much stuff?"

I guess that's exactly what made me know so little... about so much stuff. I think I know small bits of nearly everything LOL enough to sate my childish curiosity, I guess?

Quote - The original figure, on the left, has a strange side turn in the right buttock. The WM figure does not have this streak, but buttocks still look a bit like they are 'glued together'. 

No spread cheeks morphs?

LOL The other day while order a pizza delivery I forgot my own phone number, had to look in my phone. :)

Fixed the neck and that dent on the lats.  Better?

" but buttocks still look a bit like they are 'glued together"

I Have a helper bone in the buttocks that I could use to spread the cheeks a little, good idea?

Hmmm, not been getting my ebots lately.

It's been a busy time around here and I haven't done much 3d work thisweek.

I'm hoping thiscoming week will be better time-wise...sigh.

@ Diogenes:

1 - Neck and lats look better indeed.

2 - I had noted those extra bones in the buttocks when doing the NiM pant and asked myself what they were for.  If they, or other bones in way, can be used to flex the buttock, that would be great.

Thank you for your efforts.

You do not by any chance happen to have plans to introduce bones to control the breasts?

I can put in bones for th breasts yes. I will see what I can do.

cheers.

If you add bones will that mess up her WW compatibility?  Sorry if that is a dumb question.

Weightmapped versions of characters are different entries for WW anyway. (Phil must be a happy camper these days. A whole new market opening up!)

The good side is that you can still use the geometry transforming part (like SaintFox did, see her post above).

I am not sure how to deal with the morphs, though.

B.

(edit:fixed a typo)

Quote - I can put in bones for the breasts yes. I will see what I can do.

cheers.

That would be great! Thank you in advance!

About WW2 I forgot to add this detail: as I don't have the big clue about using weightmapped figures elsewhere then in Poser itself I used the "classic" Antonia with WW2 to do the work for me with fitting the clothes and getting the geometry. By the way: I found that you can try to leave away all too much smoothing and the helper morphs for inflating and so on - as you just need the geometry (and you still have the morphing brush if a little pokethrough appears).

@Diogenes: This comforts me A LOT as there is a permanent vacuum where my mobile phone number should be. But I still remember the phone number my parents had when I was five years old... generally I find that I carry many, many useless or trivial informations with me but tend to forget about routine things I need each day.

lOkhi: We have a little story about children' questions here but I don't want to mess up this posting, so I'll add it later (and then go back to topic, I swear!).

So here's the story:

A little girl is walking through Hamburg with her mother.

"Mama, look, the big ship! What a kind of ship is it?"

"I don't know exactly dear, it's a large ship."

"Mama, look, that tower. Is it a church's tower?".

"I have no clue, dear. It may be a church tower or any other kind of tower."

"And there, the bridge... does it cross the Elbe or the Alster (*rivers in Hamburg)?"

"I have no idea, sweetheart. But yes, it may cross a river - or a street."

"Darling?"

"Yes, Mom?!"

"That's a good thing that you ask your Mama if you want to know something, otherwise you wouldn't learn something at all!"

Quote - So here's the story:

A little girl is walking through Hamburg with her mother.

"Mama, look, the big ship! What a kind of ship is it?"

"I don't know exactly dear, it's a large ship."

"Mama, look, that tower. Is it a church's tower?".

"I have no clue, dear. It may be a church tower or any other kind of tower."

"And there, the bridge... does it cross the Elbe or the Alster (*rivers in Hamburg)?"

"I have no idea, sweetheart. But yes, it may cross a river - or a street."

"Darling?"

"Yes, Mom?!"

"That's a good thing that you ask your Mama if you want to know something, otherwise you wouldn't learn something at all!"

LMAO!

My 3d work is suffering due to being so busy lately. Both Mom and my brother have been ill. He has pneumonia and is on strong antibotics, she had a virus.

One good piece of news, my daughter now has a job, she started today. And her fiance has a job but is waiting for them to give him his schedule. We are all very happy about this. :)

I want to finish the new texture set I have for Antonia and hope to get back on it by the weekend. And I'm thinking of adding a couple of poses or some little extra to it.

Maybe some chair sitting poses and if I can do it, add a chair prop.

That's both, good and bad news, Helen. But at least the good one's will take some pressure from you shortly. I hope your Mom and your brother get well or at least better soon.

The rings feature 9 morphs for the loops, 4 alternate geometries that can be swapped via a dial, and pseudo-gravity. The pseudo-gravity keeps the rings hanging correctly with respect to gravity when Antonia is posed, but it has its limitations because it does not respect solid objects like Antonia's neck. Because of various factors, there was more scope for me to make a mess of packaging this than usual. So I would very much appreciate it if one or more of you could test the rings and let me know if there are any problems, or if all seems OK.

Pseudo-gravity sounds very intriguing... this is a technique that can be used quite broadly?

Edit: Silly me. Thanks for the nice props!

Quote - Pseudo-gravity sounds very intriguing... this is a technique that can be used quite broadly?

Well "pseudo-gravity" is really just a fancy word that I'm using for for something that is really quite old hat, the Poser 'Point At' function, when used in a certain way. A ghost actor (no geometry) was parented to the BODY and placed a long way under the ground (-900000.0 PNU). The Poser 'Point At' function (Object menu) was then used to point the earrings at the ghost actor. So long as the y axis of the BODY remains vertical (no x or z rotation of the BODY actor), and the hip does not get moved more than about 500 PNU from the BODY, then it seems to works fairly well. The fly in the ointment here is that the rings will not respect solid objects and if Antonia is tilted too far to the side, the rings will fall through her neck. Because of that a dial was added to the BODY to turn "gravity" on or off.

Note that 'Point At' works along a line drawn from the origin of the pointing item, through its endpoint, and terminating at the origin of the item pointed at. So its important to have the origins and endPoints positioned appropriately.

As to how broad an application this has, I'm not really sure. It's good for things that hang down and have a fair bit of room to move, also good for things that point up, like balancing a ball on a finger. Probably not very good for something like a ponytail, because it would fall straight through the figures back when it leaned forwards, and 'Point At' does not respect forced limits.

Thanks for those, Les. I'll try them out later since I'm using Antonia at the moment and she could do with some jewellery, I think.

Rather than turn off the gravity simulation altogether, it should work better to turn the appropriate PointAt dial down from its default 1.000 value, until the offending earring lies against Antonia's neck. Using that method, you still have the advantage of gravity on the 'free' earring. You could rename the PointAt dial to Gravity, perhaps, to act as a reminder.