Quote -  DAZ did want to take a larger step in their own figure development though, which I think is good because I don't know how they could have really improved that much on the fourth generation (V4 and M4) without some major technical changes. Again, I wouldn't rush to say that Genesis will neverwork properly in Poser, but it can't hurt for Poser users to have other figures to fall back on. SnowS

LOL I agree that Genesis is the next step in figures, but to say that Poser has its standard figures to fall back on is not very encouraging! Have you tried to you use them?

I hope that someway or somehow that they develop a Genesis character that will work in Poser, or at least when they release V5 and M5 they will be Poser friendly!

Quote - "LOL I agree that Genesis is the next step in figures, but to say that Poser has its standard figures to fall back on is not very encouraging! Have you tried to you use them?"

I haven't personally used any since Miki 1, but...yeah.  ;)  I did say "other figures" though, meaning primarily V4/M4 and Antonia (or whatever else the commuity gets behind).

Definitely all for a Genesis that works with Poser though.

shadowhawk2zero wrote:

Quote - Hi Snow,

Thanks for the info on DAZ. It isn't that I am worried about DAZ leaving its roots to try something new, it is more of a question as to why DAZ would alienate a whole sales base? I understand that DAZ has lived in the shadow of Poser for a while and they are starting to come into their own and they want everyone to know that they are not Poser. But why in the world would they design a new character that can not be used in Poser, which still provides them with a solid income? Like I have also stated I am not a DAZ hater, I just don't understand why they want to cut off their nose to prove a point? I would really like to use Genesis, BUT not at the expense of having to install another program, build my character in this program, buy an exporter, export the figure and then not even be able to get the full use out of it once it is transfered? I am sure that it is not their intent but I see that as a slap in the face for not using their progran in the first place. I can already see suport dropping off for the Gen 4 figures, I have talked to vendors that had projects in the works for V4 and M4 that have shelved them in favor of Genesis, projects that I had already had money set aside for to purchase. Plus why would you make a morph set for the new figure to use the last generations clothes and character morphs? If I were a conspiracy nut I would pull some theory about DAZ trying to force everyone to use their program if they want new content.

Like I have stated before, why is DAZ giving people the impression that they are trying to alienate a whole section of their consumer base? I shop at DAZ almost as much as I shop hhere at Rendo and RDNA as well as some of the more adult sites, and as more and more stuff comes out for Genesis only, the less I will be shopping there.

Sorry everyone, I don't mean to sound mad about all of this, I reall am not, I am just frustrated that a company that I willingly buy product from is by their actions telling me that I am no longer important.

What most people seem to forget, (or perhaps just don't know) is that DAZ intended for Genesis to work fully in Poser just like it does in DAZ Studio, and it could. Smith Micro chose not to support the Genesis figure because they didn't want Poser tied to the technology of another company, certainly a valid business decision.

DAZ had no intention and isn't trying to alienate Poser users with the Genesis figure, and it's not trying to force anyone to use DAZ Studio. It's simply a matter of their plans not working out as they had hoped, which was for the Genesis figure to work in both programs.

The bottom line is, DAZ banked on Smith Micro using DAZ's technology to be able to use Genesis in Poser, but it just didn't happen. No blame on DAZ or Smith Micro, it's just business.

They are working on a way for Poser users to use Genesis, but when that will become availabe and how well it will work is anyone's guess.

As far as Genesis support, SnowSultan made some good points. I also think that they are waiting until Victoria 5 is released. It has been mentioned at DAZ that Victoria 5 bundles will be prizes in one of their contests. I think we'll see a lot more content when Victoria 5 is released, just like we did when previous versions of Victoria and Michael came out.

Coldrake

Quote - As far as Genesis support, SnowSultan made some good points. I also think that they are waiting until Victoria 5 is released. It has been mentioned at DAZ that Victoria 5 bundles will be prizes in one of their contests. I think we'll see a lot more content when Victoria 5 is released, just like we did when previous versions of Victoria and Michael came out.

 Coldrake

I agree that if a Poser version of Genesis is released, it will probably be when Victoria 5 is released. For now it is up in the air how useful it will be in Poser. Will it support V4 clothing (DS4 uses the autofit tool for that), is it a high polygon version, will it scale properly and can morphs be added from within poser? Without it, V5 will be in the same position as figures like Antonia and have a difficult time in Poser land.

I do agree with you that the level of support for Genesis for Poser has been a business decision on both sides, and is unfortunate but understandable.

The CR2 export solution for Genesis in DS4 anounced by DAZ can only be a temporary fix for those who cannot wait for a real solution. The workflow in using the exporter is too cumbersome for real work.

I hope things will become more clear in the near future. If it turns out to be DAZ Soon, it might be too late

Other alternatives are even now being developed. Of course the ultimate goal with the tools provided, will be Posers own line equal to anything Daz may put out. This will ensure we never face this same scenario again.

Is it definite that Poser 9 subdivision does not work on an imported Genesis mesh?

And what about the next genesis? Where will we be then? Same place we are now. Each time they come on with "move on over to DS and then everything will work" Each time some do, it is a game of atrition. We need a solution that does not depend on daz who does not have Posers best interest at heart. And therefor not ours either. 

Quote - Other alternatives are even now being developed. Of course the ultimate goal with the tools provided, will be Posers own line equal to anything Daz may put out. This will ensure we never face this same scenario again.

Excellent! Poser users need to guarantee their own future and I feel this is a step in the right direction.

Quote - Is it definite that Poser 9 subdivision does not work on an imported Genesis mesh?

At this point, Genesis cannot be exported via their own product (post 117). And even if you could, you wouldn't be able to take advantage of any of the DS tools to make Genesis work as designed. So, what's the point?

Poser subdivision? Do you mean smoothing?

Quote - Other alternatives are even now being developed. Of course the ultimate goal with the tools provided, will be Posers own line equal to anything Daz may put out. This will ensure we never face this same scenario again.

Any who have seen Antonia bend know that she's been designed with a combination of superior mesh and expert rigging - and this is before weight-mapping. As they say: you ain't seen nuthin' yet!! :woot:

Quote - Poser subdivision? Do you mean smoothing?

I meant the equivalent of Blender's SubSurf.

To my understanding, this is one area that DS has over Poser (any version). Poser doesn't do subdivision surfaces: its answer to that is that smoothing thingie.

Maybe someday.

It seems SM doesn't want to move away from stand alone, high-poly figures till its good and ready.

Well, if you read the rest of this thread, it's not up to SM: it's up to the imagination of Poser users!

PP2012: preserving the freedom to create your own!

We don't depend on a company for our figures: we depend on ourselves. We can do it, as a group. The talent and energy is there. Isn't this a great time to be a Poser user? I really think it is! :woot:

She is finished,
He is half way throught his morphing Process.

have a nice day, you all.

Quote - It seems SM doesn't want to move away from stand alone, high-poly figures till its good and ready.

Can't help but wonder if Genesis had been made for  say, Maya or lightwave, would the same people blaming SM for not supporting it still do so and insist that SM start supporting those file formats as well?

If the Genesis thing isn't resolved I wouldn't mind so much if SmithMicro can get some talented people to create a new generation of Poser Figures that I actually want to use.  I gobble up 3rd party figures that are decent, but often find that there is a lack of product support for add-ons for them.  I would use the native Poser people more if there were more interesting morphs and textures for them--but no such luck.  To be honest I don't want to repurchase all my 4th Generation Daz figures for this Genesis system--it's very costly and I don't see too much benefit from it.  I can have people with just about any body type I want now--the only nice thing is that Genesis makes it easier to adjust clothing to them.

At any rate I'm sure there will be lots of other content we can still get from Daz even if the current generation does not work properly with Poser.

Well I had a five week paycheck this month so I broke down and picked up DS4A and as soon as my new computer gets here I will install it and see what all of the hubbub is about. The only reason that I picked it up was I do not see DAZ and SM working through the difference in their weight mapping programs. I am not that upset, a little irritated perhaps but not upset because I can understand both points of the argument. Neither company wants to be controled by the other. DAZ has come out with a new figure that does amazing things, and they did offer the tech to SM to make it compatible in Poser, but SM doesn't want to be dependant on someone elses tech for the figure so they both solved the weight mapping issue with by going seperate ways. I keep hearing that V5/M5 will be morphs of the Genesis figure and although I have a lot invested in the Gen4 characters, I will be able to use all of that with the Genesis character thanks to morph packs. Yes it will mean learning a new work flow and yes I did say that I didn't want to do that, but the world is full of things we don't want to do, and I don't want to get left behind because I refused to change. I still plan on using Poser and I will hold out hope that one of the briliant python wizards that create amazing items for poser will be able to crack the code that will allow Genesis to be used to its full potiential in Poser, but until then I will have a foot in each program.

The trend for years has been for Daz to go it's own way--Daz Studio has really advanced from what it was.  It's ironic that Daz started out as a 3D content company and is not ending up with it's own 3D software line.  Certainly in the 3D hobby world there can be more than one program that does human figures and is does not have to be compatible with everyone.  It would be nice if this would all work out so that people who want to use whatever the current generation of Mike and Vicky could use them in Poser--but this is a new opportunity for vendors to develop new figures for Poser so that we're not locked in to the Daz family of humans, but have alternatives.  I have seen Poser content come a long way from authors other than Daz--surely there can be a market for another line.

Daz Studio is much better than it used to be, but I still perfer Poser.

Quote - > Quote - It seems SM doesn't want to move away from stand alone, high-poly figures till its good and ready.

 

Can't help but wonder if Genesis had been made for  say, Maya or lightwave, would the same people blaming SM for not supporting it still do so and insist that SM start supporting those file formats as well?

I'm not sure what file formats or assigning blame have got to do with my observation.

(Doesn't Poser already import a bit of Lightwave?)

Can anyone answer my question. What happens with the next genesis? Another incompatible product? When will it end?

It will end when everybody comes to their senses and start using Cinema.:laugh:

Thats my point, the days of Daz figure compatibility in Poser is over and its time we face the facts and move on. There may be some form of compatibility but never fully compatible ever again. There is a divergence and its not such a bad thing. IMO

And this time it's up to the community to federate around figures that Poser community members themselves have developed instead of looking automatically for solutions from major content providers. We need to be self-regulating, setting standards and meeting them, outlining expectations and addressing them: we have the power!

I want to make a point, and then you guys can go back to discussing everything you were.

I see a lot of very unnecessary snark and smarminess both in the direction of DAZ and Poser users.  It does nothing but create animosity for no reason, which spirals into the arguments and things that lock threads. 
Poser users have a very real concern. We have all invested a lot of our money in DAZ products, only to be told "Sorry, this product won't work in your program of choice.  Contact the developer of your program, see if they'll change it!", after years of supporting said program.  
On the other side of the coin, DAZ is a business, and has every right to make decisions based on where they feel their direction is headed. I don't know any business that makes decisions based on what their customer base says they want, because in every instance, what people say they'll buy and what people buy are completely different.

The ones I feel sorry for in this debacle are the PA's. Going from V3 to V4 was nothing.  Better mapping and rigging made the 4 family easier to work with. But, from what I hear from people I know who make money in this industry, Genesis is breaking them, mentally and financially.  If they're not making the leap, they're hurting, and it's frustrating. 

Anyway, back to my original point....we can all defend our own points of view without underhanded jabs, yeah?  Because I know we're better than this.  I may have been away for a while, but I haven't completely given up on you all yet.

I thinik Daz has a great opportunity here.  It can create a Poser department in it's store for Poser compatible products; certainly they can make more money if they do this than expecting everyone to switch over to some flavor of Daz Studio.  I just hope that all the major content creators don't jump ship and just support Genesis products--that some will concentrate their efforts to have a Poser compatible product line.  When eFrontier took over Poser I'd seen more content to support the native Poser figures than I'd ever before--and I'm a user back to version 4 of Poser, there were new morphs and outfits and texture maps.  Certainly we can hope that Content Paradise, at least, will have stuff for the native Poser people again.  I'd had great hopes when the original Apollo Maximus was released; an excellent figure whose full potential was never met.  I think Robynvail has it right, instead of worrying about it we can hope that this is a new opportunity.

Some of the creators that I have talked to over at DAZ at most of them are for the foreseeable future are going to continue to produce items for both Genesis and the Gen4 figures. So that pretty much tells me that the number of items coming out for Gen4 figures will slow down as I am sure that some will probably start producing items more for Genesis than Gen4 especially since V5/M5 will be based on the Genesis character. I guess we are going to have to find a way as poser users to create our own figure that is either equal to or better than Genesis or find a way to make Genesis work in Poser to the same extent it works in DS4A and DS4Pro

Quote - Can anyone answer my question. What happens with the next genesis? Another incompatible product? When will it end?

The serious answer to your question is that everyone has to update their importers/exporters whenever the target program changes.

An update to Poserfusion C4D is expected this week, to add support for R12 and R13, so SM already do this.

They don't say 'this will change next year, lets not support it'.

Genesis is not a target program but a product figure to be used in a program.  If there is some kind of bridge to be built it is not on SM alone to do any such thing. Regardless its not in the cards especially when the next product from Daz will not work either. Its an endless game and its time to move on.

I dabble in CG since 1997 (14 years) and I never, ever saw anybody tying together content and software. Everybody (especially big boys) tries to make simpler for people to manage their pipelines made up by different applications. Even firms like AutoDesk (not exactly the first name one thinks when considering openess :biggrin:) allows people to mix and match also non-AD applications. There are industry wide efforts like Collada to make interoperability better. B.t.w. Collada is an extensible standard, as demonstrated e.g. by SmithMicro which submitted an extension to handle weight mapping, so there is no reason for not supporting it fully (there are also totally free libraries to read/write files so even software is not a problem).

DAZ went instead on a totally diverging path, tying Genesis to Studio 4 and (as reported by the recently again-banned-from-DAZ-forums mainlystanley) made nearly impossible to work with Genesis decently even between Studio and Carrara unless the DRM server (pardon, Content Management System) is alive. They choose a file format (JSON serialization) which is not used by anybody else in the 3D industry. And (but this is not a new issue) they adopted an application of ECMAScript for scripting Studio differently from the general trend of the industry, which is standardazing on Python. Such closed and loneley strategy is suicidal in a professional environment and even in the hobbiest field, unless you accept to submit to a DAZ-only pipeline, it is a show stopper.

The adoption of Genesis is no more a question of speculations: go to DAZ shop and do weekly totals of new products subdiving them into Genesis-unrelated ones, also-support-for-Genesis, Genesis-only and plot data; you will get unquestionable, publicly accessible stats to be evaluated considering that Genesis available since early August and Studio Adv is available since early September. If you still have doubts, sample also ShareCG freebies.

Poser users have enough content for months if not a 1/2 years and, in the mean time, weightmap retrofits and new figures are being developed so I really don't see any problem arising from DAZ strategies: they (and their users) will go their way, Poser and Poser users another.

Genesis is not a product figure either, we have to disentangle it from the product figure, that will be V5.

SM said no to Genesis on your behalf, its off the table (for now!).

Don't we all suspect that at this very moment SM is working on its own embeded mesh and rig to create an equivalent multi-figure framework?

Daz said no to genesis on our behalf. Personally I am very happy they did. Just tickled. :)

Quote - Daz said no to genesis on our behalf. Personally I am very happy they did. Just tickled. :)

I read that 4 or 5 times before I realised you had replaced SM with DAZ :biggrin:

If you all head to Vue forum you will see that there is a a new guy in town and it supports the new Poser version (apart from "some" other features).

Bye!!!

"Don't we all suspect that at this very moment SM is working on its own embeded mesh and rig to create an equivalent multi-figure framework?"

Unlikely. The Poser development team has been content to allow other sources to produce "popular" figures for Poser. The figures that come with Poser do not take credible advantage of the features available in the application. Seeing that this is not their past pattern, I see no reason to expect the Poser team to suddenly produce a figure that takes the fullest advantage of all of Poser's (incredible) power.

In fact, Poser is very well positioned to export work done in the program to other high end applications as part of a professional workflow. An embedded mesh precludes that strategy (which is working well for SM).

Sadly, the most supported figures (by Daz3D) that represent the "top of the line" for use in Poser have always been flawed and mediocre, not superior, and have been ever more incompatible with Poser, as they have become increasingly more proprietary to D/S. Now Genesis is all but 100% incompatible with Poser's open and well documented standard (which even Vue can understand and use).

Neither SM nor DAZ3D have dozens of programmers/developers sitting around waiting for something to do. Neither company has the personnel to produce the very best figures possible in their own program, let alone the software of some other company. Neither company has the personnel to make Genesis compatible with Poser, even if they had the will or desire to do so.

DAZ evangelists seem to be inordinately interested in whether Genesis works in Poser or not. But, I doubt that any of them are highly motivated to provide a conversion solution for themselves. All of the content I have, that worked with previous figures from DAZ still work just as well, or better. Genesis is not a compelling must have figure for Poser users, even if it is for content providers.

Those people in the Poser community who have the talent to move Genesis to Poser have little to no interest in doing so. Right now they are cutting their teeth on converting other figures to work with older underused features, and the newest tools, and working on third party figures (Antonia). Why bother with Genesis, when they have honed their skills a little, they can make something way better that is designed to work in Poser, taking FULL advantage of all the features and tools.

As to content, others in the Poser community are working with the enhanced features of Poser and Python to make it possible to move content to enhanced and new figures, and hopefully help reduce the complexity of making content for Poser empowered figures.

Things seem to be on track (not off track) to me.

lmk

It's not up to the Poser Community to  make Genesis compatible or usable in Poser. Seems to me that DAZ's job. If they're either unable, incapable, or unmotivated to do so is not my problem.

I couldn't help but notice that some users are having a problem with a Facebook pop-up window. It really is annoying. But a number of people have insisted that DAZ isn't to fault for the pop up, and that Facebook is. And that Facebook should fix it. I find that rather ironic. 

Quote - I see no reason to expect the Poser team to suddenly produce a figure that takes the fullest advantage of all of Poser's (incredible) power.

Thats a low opinion of SM's capabilities, isn't it universally agreed that now is the perfect time to produce such a figure?

Quote - > Quote - I see no reason to expect the Poser team to suddenly produce a figure that takes the fullest advantage of all of Poser's (incredible) power.

Thats a low opinion of SM's capabilities, isn't it universally agreed that now is the perfect time to produce such a figure?

I don't think anyone's saying they're incapable, just that they tend to concentrate on the software programming.  The figure's in Poser have always been more of an afterthought. Included to give the users a jumping off point without having to go out and buy content to use in the program right away.

"It's not up to the Poser Community to make Genesis compatible or usable in Poser. Seems to me that DAZ's job."

It is not the responsibility of the Poser community to fix DAZ's mistakes. But, if a Poser empowered form of Genesis is ever going to happen, I don't think DAZ3D will produce it. I don't think SM will produce it either. I believe that the talent exists in the Poser community to do it, but I think that the Poser community can come up with figures that are far better.

"Thats a low opinion of SM's capabilities"

No it isn't. Capabilities are one thing, priorities and resources are another. The Poser development team had the time and resources to make Alyson2 and Ryan2, both of which are weight-mapped. Miki 3 will be weight-mapped. Nothing else has even been hinted at or promised by SM. However, I am very willing to be (pleasantly) surprised.  :)

"isn't it universally agreed that now is the perfect time to produce such a figure?"

Yes it is. Thank you for reinforcing that point. Poser has never had more potential, and the market has never been more ready. With a range of Poser enabled figures from remade legacy content to newly made content that stretches the (perceived) limits of Poser, I believe that P9/PP2012 could out perform everyone’s expectations (financially and artistically).

"I don't think anyone's saying they're incapable, just that they tend to concentrate on the software programming."

Exactly. Not that I agree with this decision, but I do understand it. The Poser figures have never show-cased the full power of Poser. SM relies on the Poser content vendors and community to find out and demonstrate the full capabilities of this application.

I am really not trying to sound negative. I sense an enthusiasm among a lot of very talented people to do exactly this. I think it is the outstanding Poser community (professional, avocational, hobbyists, and dabblers) that give the value-added aspect to Poser that can really sell the application, and provide the content, methods, and results that makes Poser really worth buying and using. This is a great group of helpful and generous people.

Whether one is a long-time user, a former user returning, or a new user; I think now is a great time to be a Poser users.

lmk

For both the Genesis Male and Female, how is their flexibility or bending moments compare to V4 or M4's joints during extreme bends ?  such as hip, shoulder and knee areas?  Anybody ?  I see there is some make and female genitalia avaialable now, for those so inclined, and software to convert clothes to the Genesis character, but there is NO Poser version correct ?

After reading the origional title :

YES ! ! ! ! ! !

I used Genesis!

But I used a condom, so she will not start to populate the Poser Earth. :-)

Or should that be *"pollute the Poser Earth :-)"

LOL*

Wow, that was kind of an inappropriate turn of conversation.  :sneaky:

Sorry Jen, it was just a smiley reaction after somehow misreading the title.

I'll let you slide this time, lol.  Because you apologized ;)

It wasn't really a TOS thing, just...we don't want it to turn into one ;)

Wow, I come here and see the same kind of thing I see elsewhere.  Here's the thing, I was curious to see what the status of Genesis in Poser was at first, and when I saw the reason why it was given a "Not Likely in a Usable Fashion" label, I felt that the only folks to blame was DAZ.  I understand their reasons, and know what, more power to 'em!  They started off as a splinter of the older company Zygote which made the first few Poser figures.  Zygote has gone on to make the high end figures, and I mean VERY high end and detailed kind stuff.  DAZ decided to go the opposite direction and that seems to work for them, so good for them.

However, I don't want Genesis in Poser anymore.  I WAS a Daz fanboy for a long time.  Their figures for Poser were amazing.  But now, I look at their store and almost nothing is for Poser that comes out of their own labs.  Make sure you read that carefully.  "out of their own labs" is the key.  Sure, they have folks who make stuff and sell it on the Daz store, but that is no different then any of the items for sale here.  Did Renderosity make them?  Of course not!  Look at how many Poser compatible products are on the Daz store that have been EXCLUSIVELY created by Daz.  I think you will see what I mean.  Daz HAS given up on Poser.  No matter what they say, they have.  They haven't, however, given up on making money from Poser users by having folks who make Poser content they can resell.  There is a big difference.  As long as Poser users are willing to buy things at the Daz store, they will continue to sell them.

Now, on to what I would like to see?  I would like to see a completely new figure, just for Poser.  One that literally uses every little bit of new Poser tech they can get their hands on to make an incredible figure.  I want to see the Revelation of a new era of Poser figures!  ;)

Quote - Now, on to what I would like to see?  I would like to see a completely new figure, just for Poser.  One that literally uses every little bit of new Poser tech they can get their hands on to make an incredible figure.  I want to see the Revelation of a new era of Poser figures!  ;)

I'm all for this. :)

yes- no- yes- no -

First 2 very personal statements:
1; DAZ made a mistake to make Genesis and V5 DS4 figures only.
2; SM made a mistake to release Poser9/PP2012 without including a new figure that used their new Weightmapping system. Every body was waiting to see with what figure SM was going to counter the Genesis / V5 hype.

So both company's made a mistake.

Is that serious? No it is not.
In her home app Genesis works very fine and some will create nice art out of her.
Poser9/PP2012 is a very capable app and lots of us are using the new options with great support and care from SM.

The market:
This is where the problem is for content creators.
Not to choose between the apps, oh, no that is a detail.

But as the number of figures increases; What figures will they build for?

Most "buyers" are way over their heads in V4 investment, and most are over their point of no return. Lots of content creators know that, so V4 will continue her life.
It will also be the last figure to work in both apps; so... her future is certain.

Building Genesis for DS4 only and launching the new Poser versions without a new figure where both missed opportinities.

I am sure both companies learned a lot these last months.

And in the end let us all hope we all get better from this.

I'm not sure that you can legitimately claim that Daz made "Genesis and V5 DS4 figures only," in that they export nicely in both Collada and FBX. (I verified using Maya where both are fully posable.) Unfortunately S-M has not allowed for importing a rigged character in other than "their" format (their advertized Collada import only brings in the mesh; not what you would expect from their "Professional" version).

I do agree that S-M really missed the boat by neither including a weight mapped figure nor supporting industry standard formats for inporting weight-mapped figures.

with the latest upload of DAZ 4, you can now export to poser (hopefully poser 8 as that is what i have). i haven't tried it yet though.

Quote - > Quote - Now, on to what I would like to see?  I would like to see a completely new figure, just for Poser.  One that literally uses every little bit of new Poser tech they can get their hands on to make an incredible figure.  I want to see the Revelation of a new era of Poser figures!  ;)

I'm all for this. :)

Absolutely agree. I am all for this also, with all my heart.

Simply I love Poser :)

fabi