Quote -
There will always be some people who go that way. But others won't. If you read the feature list and add the price for the plugins you need to do what you want, the calculation is different. And, by the way, the figures which are included it Poser are usable as well. With the actual Version you get the G2 figures, Alyson and Ryan, Posette and Dork, James and Jessy, some Toons - with clothes, textures and hair. Yes, they are neither Genesis nor V4, but they are still usable.

So I tend to disagree that Poser is too expensive. Of course, there will be people who start with Studio and stick with it just because the base version is free, but it's not quite as easy as that, at least not for me.

For what Poser actually does, and for someone who has a metric buttload of content,  I'm not saying it's too expensive. Once you are into the hobby, and want a decent app that goes beyond the absolute basics, sure, it can be a good investment (hell, I still buy the thing every other version or so). 

OTOH, I'm looking at it from the newbie's POV. The guy who, especially in this economy, doesn't have 2.5 C-Notes to toss around on a whim.

Incidentally, that newbie is also the guy who also gets told by the CG pros (that is, the ones who get paid to do this stuff for a living) that if he wants to get serious in the CG industry, should skip Poser anyway and start with Blender (which is free), then work up to Maya, Max, Modo... 

============

Quote - While you have a small percentage of people who say they use both apps 
any read of the D.A.Z. forum shows that the great majority of DS users never used poser.
Which tends  to confirm My suspicion that D.A.Z. has no interest in getting poser users to switch to Studio but instead is trying to get Artists from "other" fields to get into  DS.

...and therein lies the point. Their big thing is to get new users to use their product and then buy the goods to go with it. They present a very low threshold to doing that, which eases the new user into spending money and establishing loyalty. 

Smith Micro on the other hand has a somewhat high threshold - the $250 initial cost. Is it worth it? To someone who loves and uses the thing, the answer will of course be "yes". OTOH, to someone who has never used it before, things come under greater scrutiny, and that initial purchase is going to be put off. This becomes doubly true when the decision is to spend $250 (then learn the new app), or buy a plugin that does pretty much the same thing, or just find a free way to do it and buy more content. 

The other thing is the ecosystem. The reason that Apple domainates with the iPhone and iPad is, among other reasons, the ecosystem. Everything is right there. You don't have to go looking for stores and sites (though you can if you want) - everything is already in one place. You get support from the staff, you get a ready pile of stuff from which to purchase, etc.  Purchases I've made 10 years ago there can still be re-downloaded at any time I happen to need them. NYW? No problem. Michael 2.0 or Aiko 1.0? Yup, I can re-download those. 

With Poser's ecsystem, it's more like Apple's competition - You have to go to some other site to buy your stuff if you can find it - Content Paradise, here, RDNA, etc etc. Quality varies and it's caveat emptor all the way. There's also the relatively transient nature of these other sites (see also PoserPros, 3DCommune, Thralldom, etc). I have a metric ton of stuff from these sites, but could never replace anything I lose that isn't scrupulously backed-up. TBH, there are many puchases I've made here that I can no longer get a copy of, at any price. 

I'm not pointing these things out just to stroke the ol' e-peen, folks... These are viable business reasons, and people coming into this hobby are seeing these things, and making their buying decisions on them. 

Quote - > Quote - "You're trying to equate buying habits that do not exist."

No I am comparing marketing approaches
that are similar.
...
Cheers

I don't think that the comparison fits. DAZ sells it's content to Poser users and to Studio users, and they are trying to add new customers from other areas as well. I agree that a company should always try to get new customers, but it usually should try to keep the old customer base as well. I don't know if they get more new buyers from pro apps then they have in the Poser community. There are no signs that the Poser community is very keen to switch to Studio, just because of Genesis.

And this is the second aspect of this issue. DAZ does not produce that much characters, clothing, textures for it's figures, the main part is provided by their PA's. But they risk a lot if they start to produce stuff for Genesis since they loose the Poser users as customers as well, and most likely won't get any new customers from the pro apps. But if the PAs don't support Genesis, there is just a slim chance that it will become as popular as V4.

In my opinion it's not SM who have a problem if Genesis isn't a sucess in the Poser community, it's DAZ. Without the money of the Poser users, Genesis isn't likely to get the support needed to become the prime figure - and DAZ cannot make much more money from V4.

Genesis is an advanced product, with many more possibilities than V4, bends better, has more possibilities, but creating good content is also more complicated, from what I've read. Will the PAs try to master that, for smaller sales then before? I doubt it.

You have a very valid point, stated well.  The biggest problem is that DAZ moved too quickly and too stridently to force Poser users to DS.  Hence, they lost a very big chunk of their existing user base.

Now, they are losing a chunk of their PAs as well.  In the last week alone, there have been 2 very public defections and there have been more muted ones in the recent past.

One of the things I see for PAs is that a great deal of their signature work (i.e., folds, morphs, extensive detailing) is obliterated with the Auto Fit function.  And, it appears DAZ is forcing the PAs to create for Genesis, if they create for the Gen4 characters.

Quote -  "...or having the thing I loved turn into the thing I'd end up disgusted with. "

At which point, you take the golf club and chase them with it :-) 

:lol:

Quote - Free Kittens

 

thats all.. Free Kittens...

But oh so cute even if they do eat you out of house and home and claw you to death each time you stroke them. :lol:

Quote - Wether DAZ will grow from this same approach remains to be seen but its clear they are looking outside the existing poser/ D.A.Z communities for growth.

And I wish them the best of luck. Give me Poser and Antonia any day!

...and by the way, Poser Pro is aimed at least partly to the pro market as well. Hard to say how successfully, since most pro's are more likely to drop something very heavy on their own foot then admitting that they use Poser, but I've seen Poser renders more than once in TV and ads. In that market, Poser's price (the Pro price) isnt't a problem.

And please remember, the cheap entry app is Poser Debut, not Poser 9. So, the entry price is $49, not 250$, and still with a full set of figures. Right?

Quote - You have a very valid point, stated well.  The biggest problem is that DAZ moved too quickly and too stridently to force Poser users to DS.  Hence, they lost a very big chunk of their existing user base.

Now, they are losing a chunk of their PAs as well.  In the last week alone, there have been 2 very public defections and there have been more muted ones in the recent past.

One of the things I see for PAs is that a great deal of their signature work (i.e., folds, morphs, extensive detailing) is obliterated with the Auto Fit function.  And, it appears DAZ is forcing the PAs to create for Genesis, if they create for the Gen4 characters.

Just a couple of quick points.

DAZ is not really losing "a chunk" of their PA's, The most recent "defection" (as you put it) was a guy who came in to daz, tried a product in the store and left. Which hardly makes a big defection LOL

All the real dedicated PA's are still around, because we know DAZ really is the best market for our stuff.

DAZ is also NOT forcing PA's to create for genesis, they still accept gen 4 products without hesitation. Of course it may seem like alot of PA's are starting to develop for genesis, but who can blame them, it is fun to develop for new figures, that allow you to do things you never could before. No one is forcing them though, its all because of their own interest.

As for losing a "big chunk" of their user base, that is also a falicy, because (like I said before) my sales are very stable for both old and new content. There are only a few people who like to yell and scream in the forums about how bad they think things are, when the reality is completely opposite. The fact is, sales are strong, many customers "happily" use both softwares, people do enjoy genesis and buy the products for it. PA's are making content for both genesis and older gen products, and there really is no division in the market. The only people who shout out about all these doom and gloom/conspiracy theory prophecies are people who have some talent at trying to twist facts to suit their agenda, rather than taking the time to find out what the real situation is.

There really is no need for a pissing contest of which software is better, no one is forcing anyone to use one or the other. People will just use what appeals to them with what products they want to use. Its as simple as that.

If someone feels slighted that someone made some real cool content for a figure they decided they dont want to use, it would be nonsense to cry foul over that and blame some secret conspiracy that PA's are forced to neglect one product or another...LOL..thats just silly...whe make for whatever appeals to US. Pretty simple huh? LOL

Rawn

Poser is a staple in programs like Forensic Files and other real crime documentaries ;). I watch em enough to know...lol.

As for guessing where Daz is headed (either up or down) is pointless because we really don't know. All the gloom and doom stuff is getting tiring. Why don't we concentrate on our programs of choice and how we can make those better, rather than speculating on things we don't understand and have no idea about. Just sayin... ;)

Laurie

Quote - "Well, there was this Thread... just sayin'..."

From the Linked thread:
"I wish you guys would get back to what you do best... creating characters, and make darned sure it is compatible with Poser. Breaking that is signing your death warrant, commercially."

Hmm the OP of that thread is clearly a veteran poser user with an obvious Bias and concern about the loss of the old Defunct paradigm ( poser compatible V-chicks& content for eternity)

Growth lies in NEW customers
not trying to win over entrenched partisans from other apps.

Notice how Apple Did not not tried to take Away
the  Entrenched corporate Clients of Microsoft by convincing Conservative Corporate IT Dept's to stop buying those Huge enterprise Windows bundles or Convince Die hard, build your own Rig, PC Gamers to buy a ridiculously priced MAC pro.

with the Iphone, Ipods& pads They targeted Lay people
(non-techy uncles ,cousins and grandma's )far removed from the fever swamped web forums of platform Jihaadists.

Ironicly I just visited a thread over at DAZ about the new DAZ front page.
It seems ,to me at least, that many of the DAZites
themselves Dont under stand the new direction their beloved provider is taking.

One notable Complaint was that the new  site front page basicly contains Alot of really cool Images and Art and  a link to Download DAZ Studio4.

No tech specs ,no feature list or even a link to the actual store to buy the latest V-chick hookerware.

Well IMHO it is a simple strategy aimed at NEW people to the scene. Show some really cool renders& art and associate them with your program and "upsell"them on content and plugins etc. afterwards.

If you have seen any of the recent Windows 7 TV Ads you see a similar strategy,
You see happy, good looking suburbanite Families enjoying
their Kinect Cameras and uploading Cool colorful vids to Facebook . Not a tech oriented feature list About Win 7's  64 bit architecture,Multi-threading etc.

Wether DAZ will grow from this same approach remains to be seen but its clear they are looking outside the existing poser/ D.A.Z communities for growth.

Cheers

New growth.... Like I said  ,Tries it and gives it up.  Daz and/or Poser is nothing like using an I-pad or I-phone.   

 

 

 

 

Quote - > Quote - You have a very valid point, stated well.  The biggest problem is that DAZ moved too quickly and too stridently to force Poser users to DS.  Hence, they lost a very big chunk of their existing user base.

Now, they are losing a chunk of their PAs as well.  In the last week alone, there have been 2 very public defections and there have been more muted ones in the recent past.

One of the things I see for PAs is that a great deal of their signature work (i.e., folds, morphs, extensive detailing) is obliterated with the Auto Fit function.  And, it appears DAZ is forcing the PAs to create for Genesis, if they create for the Gen4 characters.

 

Just a couple of quick points.

DAZ is not really losing "a chunk" of their PA's, The most recent "defection" (as you put it) was a guy who came in to daz, tried a product in the store and left. Which hardly makes a big defection LOL

All the real dedicated PA's are still around, because we know DAZ really is the best market for our stuff.

DAZ is also NOT forcing PA's to create for genesis, they still accept gen 4 products without hesitation. Of course it may seem like alot of PA's are starting to develop for genesis, but who can blame them, it is fun to develop for new figures, that allow you to do things you never could before. No one is forcing them though, its all because of their own interest.

As for losing a "big chunk" of their user base, that is also a falicy, because (like I said before) my sales are very stable for both old and new content. There are only a few people who like to yell and scream in the forums about how bad they think things are, when the reality is completely opposite. The fact is, sales are strong, many customers "happily" use both softwares, people do enjoy genesis and buy the products for it. PA's are making content for both genesis and older gen products, and there really is no division in the market. The only people who shout out about all these doom and gloom/conspiracy theory prophecies are people who have some talent at trying to twist facts to suit their agenda, rather than taking the time to find out what the real situation is.

There really is no need for a pissing contest of which software is better, no one is forcing anyone to use one or the other. People will just use what appeals to them with what products they want to use. Its as simple as that.

If someone feels slighted that someone made some real cool content for a figure they decided they dont want to use, it would be nonsense to cry foul over that and blame some secret conspiracy that PA's are forced to neglect one product or another...LOL..thats just silly...whe make for whatever appeals to US. Pretty simple huh? LOL

 

Rawn

ROFL, I think you missed a few "defections." 

Quote - > Quote - Just a couple of quick points.

DAZ is not really losing "a chunk" of their PA's, The most recent "defection" (as you put it) was a guy who came in to daz, tried a product in the store and left. Which hardly makes a big defection LOL

All the real dedicated PA's are still around, because we know DAZ really is the best market for our stuff.

DAZ is also NOT forcing PA's to create for genesis, they still accept gen 4 products without hesitation. Of course it may seem like alot of PA's are starting to develop for genesis, but who can blame them, it is fun to develop for new figures, that allow you to do things you never could before. No one is forcing them though, its all because of their own interest.

As for losing a "big chunk" of their user base, that is also a falicy, because (like I said before) my sales are very stable for both old and new content. There are only a few people who like to yell and scream in the forums about how bad they think things are, when the reality is completely opposite. The fact is, sales are strong, many customers "happily" use both softwares, people do enjoy genesis and buy the products for it. PA's are making content for both genesis and older gen products, and there really is no division in the market. The only people who shout out about all these doom and gloom/conspiracy theory prophecies are people who have some talent at trying to twist facts to suit their agenda, rather than taking the time to find out what the real situation is.

There really is no need for a pissing contest of which software is better, no one is forcing anyone to use one or the other. People will just use what appeals to them with what products they want to use. Its as simple as that.

If someone feels slighted that someone made some real cool content for a figure they decided they dont want to use, it would be nonsense to cry foul over that and blame some secret conspiracy that PA's are forced to neglect one product or another...LOL..thats just silly...whe make for whatever appeals to US. Pretty simple huh? LOL

 

Rawn

ROFL, I think you missed a few "defections." 

No he didn't ;). There was one pulled product and a few rejections.

Quote - ROFL, I think you missed a few "defections." 

Not really..the whole "defection" nonsense was such a minor point it was barely worth even noting. There are ALWAYS people moving from one store to another. That is how this business works, its nothing unusual.

It is FAR from a doom and gloom sign, because it has always happened. Thats just the type of thing I was talking about how the doom and gloomers try to twist things to suit their agenda. When the reality of such things make the comments look very silly.

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - Just a couple of quick points.

DAZ is not really losing "a chunk" of their PA's, The most recent "defection" (as you put it) was a guy who came in to daz, tried a product in the store and left. Which hardly makes a big defection LOL

All the real dedicated PA's are still around, because we know DAZ really is the best market for our stuff.

DAZ is also NOT forcing PA's to create for genesis, they still accept gen 4 products without hesitation. Of course it may seem like alot of PA's are starting to develop for genesis, but who can blame them, it is fun to develop for new figures, that allow you to do things you never could before. No one is forcing them though, its all because of their own interest.

As for losing a "big chunk" of their user base, that is also a falicy, because (like I said before) my sales are very stable for both old and new content. There are only a few people who like to yell and scream in the forums about how bad they think things are, when the reality is completely opposite. The fact is, sales are strong, many customers "happily" use both softwares, people do enjoy genesis and buy the products for it. PA's are making content for both genesis and older gen products, and there really is no division in the market. The only people who shout out about all these doom and gloom/conspiracy theory prophecies are people who have some talent at trying to twist facts to suit their agenda, rather than taking the time to find out what the real situation is.

There really is no need for a pissing contest of which software is better, no one is forcing anyone to use one or the other. People will just use what appeals to them with what products they want to use. Its as simple as that.

If someone feels slighted that someone made some real cool content for a figure they decided they dont want to use, it would be nonsense to cry foul over that and blame some secret conspiracy that PA's are forced to neglect one product or another...LOL..thats just silly...whe make for whatever appeals to US. Pretty simple huh? LOL

 

Rawn

ROFL, I think you missed a few "defections." 

No he didn't ;). There was one pulled product and a few rejections.

Oh, I see....those long time DAZ PAs showing up in other stores are imposters, then? 

Someone should probably put a stop to that!  Especially since they've moved products out of the DAZ store!

Quote - > Quote - ROFL, I think you missed a few "defections." 

 

Not really..the whole "defection" nonsense was such a minor point it was barely worth even noting. There are ALWAYS people moving from one store to another. That is how this business works, its nothing unusual.

It is FAR from a doom and gloom sign, because it has always happened. Thats just the type of thing I was talking about how the doom and gloomers try to twist things to suit their agenda. When the reality of such things make the comments look very silly.

Actually what looks really silly is the vehemence with which DAZ PAs come into this forum to attack anyone who has a negative thing to say about their "God."

Quote - Oh, I see....those long time DAZ PAs showing up in other stores are imposters, then? 

Someone should probably put a stop to that!  Especially since they've moved products out of the DAZ store!

 

Oh I think they've had those stores long before Genesis came out. So if you want to speculate, you probably need to get your facts straight. :) Many PAs set up shop in other online stores.

Quote - > Quote - Oh, I see....those long time DAZ PAs showing up in other stores are imposters, then? 

Someone should probably put a stop to that!  Especially since they've moved products out of the DAZ store!

 

Oh I think they've had those stores long before Genesis came out. So if you want to speculate, you probably need to get your facts straight. :) Many PAs set up shop in other online stores.

Not speculation.  Fact.

But, keep your DAZ blinders on.  I have no reason to disabuse you of them.

Quote - Actually what looks really silly is the vehemence with which DAZ PAs come into this forum to attack anyone who has a negative thing to say about their "God."

"vehemence"??..really?

I have nothing against anyone or any software. I happily use both programs. I am just trying to share some solid facts in the face of all the speculation.

I make products for Poser and DS I really do not have a favorite, and to try and twist thigns to say I am blindly devoted to one product or company is also nonsense. It sounds more like you are trying to stir things up into a more personal level so that some level of victimization can be claimed and maybe cause this thread to be shut down or at least have some threads removed so that the points you are somehow uncomfortable with wont be seem.

I am sorry but I really do not believe the doom and gloom comments and if my having a contrary view is unpleasant for you, I do apologise. But without some clear facts, this thread would really serve no purpose.

Quote - Not speculation.  Fact. But, keep your DAZ blinders on.  I have no reason to disabuse you of them.

Nope, sweetie. FULL Speculation.

I mean really. You seem to pounch on these threads in full storymode, and you get rabidly emotional about it too.

Really, get your facts together and state your discussion calmly.

In all fairness, Rawnrr is probably one of those who is never a cheerleader for either side. It's not really fair to say that he is...lol. I've never seen him screaming for the Poser OR the Daz faithful. There are some that do for sure, but Rawnrr ain't one of em ;).

Just wanted to get that off my chest...lol.

There may have been a few "defections" that I've seen, but by no means a mass exodus. And ya'll know I'm not a D|S or a Daz fan in particular, just trying to be fair.

I think we all need a new topic of conversation...lol.

How about this weather?!! :P

Laurie

and this is where the thread gets locked.

remember the policy here stated in the sticku here

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2837749

I think quite a few here need to go and read it. and actually take it in. you know, actually do it.

Quote - > Quote - Not speculation.  Fact. But, keep your DAZ blinders on.  I have no reason to disabuse you of them.

Nope, sweetie. FULL Speculation.

I mean really. You seem to pounch on these threads in full storymode, and you get rabidly emotional about it too.

Really, get your facts together and state your discussion calmly.

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahaahahaa, rabidly emotional?

Now that's really funny. 

It's the DAZ PAs who really seem to have a problem with Poser users discussing DAZ.  You are, after all, in a Poser forum attacking Poser users having a discussion about their own observations.

There's no speculation about watching DAZ PAs move their products to another store FROM the DAZ store.

Since, unlike you evidently, I frequent ALL the Poser stores, I didn't miss the defections and product removals like you seem to have.

Quote - In all fairness, Rawnrr is probably one of those who is never a cheerleader for either side. It's not really fair to say that he is...lol. I've never seen him screaming for the Poser OR the Daz faithful. There are some that do for sure, but Rawnrr ain't one of em ;).

Just wanted to get that off my chest...lol.

There may have been a few "defections" that I've seen, but by no means an exodus. And ya'll know I'm not a D|S or a Daz fan in particular, just trying to be fair.

I think we all need a new topic of conversation...lol.

How about this weather?!! :P

Laurie

I don't believe anyone even inferred an "exodus."  I certainly didn't.

The weather here is wet and getting nasty.  Freezing rain falling now, supposed to switch over to snow this evening.

You know, when all this business about Daz figures no longer working in Poser hit the fan, I was just as pissed as everyone else. I mean, it was sort of a shock and had ppl wondering "What now?" even though some of us knew it was coming. But I must admit, there's been plenty of bullshit slung by both sides (myself included). It's not just Daz users. And it's starting to get real deep, almost to the point of disinformation. No one knows where Daz is going and no one knows where SM is going. All we can do is go along for the ride, stop using Poser and Daz all together or move on. This endless bickering and bitching solves NOTHING. Now it's all just become so much hot air.

Laurie

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - Not speculation.  Fact. But, keep your DAZ blinders on.  I have no reason to disabuse you of them.

Nope, sweetie. FULL Speculation.

I mean really. You seem to pounch on these threads in full storymode, and you get rabidly emotional about it too.

Really, get your facts together and state your discussion calmly.

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahaahahaa, rabidly emotional?

Now that's really funny. 

It's the DAZ PAs who really seem to have a problem with Poser users discussing DAZ.  You are, after all, in a Poser forum attacking Poser users having a discussion about their own observations.

There's no speculation about watching DAZ PAs move their products to another store FROM the DAZ store.

Since, unlike you evidently, I frequent ALL the Poser stores, I didn't miss the defections and product removals like you seem to have.

(let's go for the lock, shall we because we need something else to talk about)

When talking about attacks, I really need you to get up and look into the mirror, because I certainly didn't accuse Raw of anything. :)

And vendors move their products back and forth from store, so this isn't really much of an issue pertaining to Genesis. But most of this stuff is done behind the doors of vendor chat, so you really wouldn't have access to any of that conversation... so really I wouldn't and don't take anythhing you say, "Glitter", as gold.

Get what I'm saying?

Quote - I don't believe anyone even inferred an "exodus."  I certainly didn't.

Well, it sorta sounded like you meant they were leaving in droves. Sorry for the confusion :P.

Quote - The weather here is wet and getting nasty.  Freezing rain falling now, supposed to switch over to snow this evening.

It's warm here actually. A freak blizzard in October and now it's like April. I can't keep up...lol. I think it is supposed to turn colder tomorrow tho ;).

Laurie

Quote -
It's the DAZ PAs who really seem to have a problem with Poser users discussing DAZ.  You are, after all, in a Poser forum attacking Poser users having a discussion about their own observations.

DAZ PA's ARE poser users LOL

I have been a poser user since poser 4

I am currently making a Poser product (for V4)

...and discussing DAZ (as a company) is not "against" poser, DAZ sells poser products...and better yet, it sells MY poser products LOL

Stands with hand on heart...Hi I am RawArt...and I am a poser user....

....oh, and I do like d/s too ;)  LOL

LOL Well, I'm with you up until the "and I do like d/s too" part :P. I just never took to it, so I'm a Poserite til the end ;). But, different strokes for different folks.

Laurie

Quote - LOL Well, I'm with you up until the "and I do like d/s too" part :P. I just never took to it, so I'm a Poserite til the end ;). But, different strokes for different folks.

Laurie

Haha...yeah...its been a bit of a chellenge getting up to speed with d/s, but the new ds4 is at least making it interesting for me to try. However the more i use it, the more I enjoy it.

I still find poser alot easier for me to use, but I think in the next year or so I will be on par between both programs.

Rawn

Quote - > Quote - I don't believe anyone even inferred an "exodus."  I certainly didn't.

Well, it sorta sounded like you meant they were leaving in droves. Sorry for the confusion :P.

Quote - The weather here is wet and getting nasty.  Freezing rain falling now, supposed to switch over to snow this evening.

It's warm here actually. A freak blizzard in October and now it's like April. I can't keep up...lol. I think it is supposed to turn colder tomorrow tho ;).

Laurie

Yeah, I'm in the "sunny south" freezing my butt off hoping my driveway doesn't freeze solid so I can't get my car out. 

The weather pattern is "upside down" I think......cold in the south, warm in the north. 

I don't think we need to argue.  Everyone should use the software and content they perfer and there isn't a right or wrong about it.  I think most of this speculation is because people are afraid that DS will one day replace Poser completely, and we love Poser (or at least some of us do)--but that's life I suppose and why worry about something that's not happened yet. 

I will just add here, I used to enjoy chatting on the Daz forums, but it seems that no one wants to talk about Poser much anymore.  It's brought up from time to time, but there's definitely been a shift away from people having Poser specific threads and I don't feel as welcomed there as I once did.

Point - you don't necessarily hire a CEO first for industry expertise as opposed to business acumen. It has succeeded and failed both ways. 

Years ago, I thought I wanted to get into video editing. I certainly wasn't going to plump for Premier or even a cheapie editor when  I had no idea what a B frame or any of the other techie terms meant, and there were plenty of free ones available. Turns out I wasn't really into it and the free apps did as much or more than I needed, but if that hadn't been the case, I would have certainly have looked first at upgrading to the 'pro' version of the freebie I was already familiar with. I think that's part of Wolf's point and I agree

That probably only represents part of the new user market though. There are people who will be more influenced by word of mouth - if their buddy sez they need Poser, they'll get Poser. Others are spec whores, they'll look at all the bullet points and even if they only half understand them, go with the app that 'sounds' the most impressive - 'shamed to say been there and done that on occasion.  Still others will go on images they've seen produced by an app, without regard to what it took in terms of time and money to produce it - ooh pretty. Yet another group will actually spend days or weeks researching every aspect untill they could practically use the software without reading the manual, and actually make a rational decision based on their budget, goals and an honest assessment of how much work they're willing to put into it. There are a lot of factors involved in who is going to start with which app and whether they will stay with it.

Someone said there was a lot of stuff for Miki if you looked for it. That points out another distinction IMO. There are those who will look and those who will hit daz3d.com and pretty much stay there. Over the years, it's pretty much become the de facto 'app store' for this stuff. Then there are the hunter-gatherer types, like many of us, who have bookmarked virtually every Poser related site in the world. To what degree being the premier content vendor gives DAZ an advantage is open to argument, but it is an advantage. Though I expressed it somewhat more colorfully, describing daz3d.com as 'Bright Lights, Big Titties,' if you're talking about new to  cosa nostra('this thing of ours,') 1st impressions do count and BLBT will probably appeal to whatever portion prefers pretty over specs.

"Knees and elbows don't matter all that much when the figure is just going to be given a purchased pose..."

Which is exactly what new users are probably going to start out doing. While there is IMO a bit too much irrational partinship blinding people, I think personal experience is also an issue.  If you've been using Poser for years, you know the elements you rely on and the things you're going to try one of these days. It's easy to say that DS will cost more because you have to have this and that and oh, that too to be happy. Strange as it sounds, some people are going to find that DS may do all they want/need for less. That's not to say that some may not find Poser cheaper in the long run. It is to say that though for making greeting cards, webpage illustrations, ads, brouchures and yes, art of the type that is not unrepresented in the galleries here. Those are the same folks who are happy with free desktop publishing, video editing, photo editing etc. apps. There are a lot of them.

Years ago, I said that 3D was going to be the next desktop publishing or home video. It hasn't happened yet but the web is the perfect environment for it to flourish. I don't think price is necessarily the issue, rather it's ease of use that is the main barrier to a lot of that casual group - think AniBlocks as opposed to Wolf's dope sheets. People want to tell stories and movies, not stills are the true storytelling medium. Think putting your head on a figure and have it doing the Macarena in a few easy steps for your 'MyFace' page. I think that's where a big part of the future and the money may be. I think part of the fear/anxiety/hostility towards DAZ is the notion that the market is too small to support both programs - it may be. They key is to get more people in the door. Some people who start with DS will eventually gravitate towards Poser for whatever reasons. If DAZ can grow the market, then Poser will benefit. If you truly think that Poser is obviously superior and anyone who tries DS will eventually choose Poser then you should root for DAZ to do well. By the same token, DS users have no reason to wish ill on Poser. 

Frankly, I don't think that either company has the type of iPod or if you're (reeealy old) VisiCalc killer thing to ignite mass appeal. There's still plenty of room for someone else to swoop in and eclipse both of them. OTOH, the revolution may continue to be gradual, even more reason to wish them both well for the long haul.

There has been a constant stream regarding the free version of DS and the "Standard version of Poser" that tend to disregard some basic facts.

DS Standard does not have a material/shader room.  It does not come with even the basic legacy rigging tools.  It does not come with a sketch render option.  It does not even do basic shadow catching.  You either need to purchase the Advanced version of DS, an add on, or plugin. 

Yes, the current standard version of DS is free but it lacks several important features that are part of Poser's basic price.  It's not uncommon to have new users asking how to do something and being told they have to purchase an upgrade, an add on or a plugin. 

"I don't think that the comparison fits. DAZ sells it's content to Poser users and to Studio users, and they are trying to add new customers from other areas as well. I agree that a company should always try to get new customers, but it usually should try to keep the old customer base as well...."

Both companies are making this effort
But IMHO SM is doing a crap job at appealing to NEW customers where the true growth is found
While RDNA is to be Applauded for showcasing the poserpro/P9 features where are the premuim SSS renders& animation samples with the new animated constraint system on the SMITH MICRO web site??

"There are no signs that the Poser community is very keen to switch to Studio, just because of Genesis."

No and you will not find any such signs.  D.A.Z .does not want you people.

They have their own marketing plan to get Comic artists and photoshop artist and short film animators to begin using DS
one look at their Front page make this much clear.

". Hard to say how successfully l, since most pro's are more likely to drop something very heavy on their own foot then admitting that they use Poser,"
 
Sorry but this is regurgitated NONSENSE!! based on ignorance not from talking to any "pros"

I personally have seen many threads over at CG talk where people ask for advice on a quick solution involving a human characters
and the advice is always the same from the "pros"
 "well if you are in a time crunch you can try Turbosquid, Dosch, or DAZ/poser figure"

I know of a recent CG Society thread right now where a few"pros"are lamenting how easily poser /DAZ can retarget Mocap files compared to the tedious process in C4D.

and BTW  the "ROSA" thread over at Cgsociety all of the critical comments from the "pro's" are about the artist using well worn movie cliche's
Not a single Comment saying the film would  have been better by not using poser/Daz figures.

Cheers

You REALLY want this fight to continue, do you?

"You REALLY want this fight to continue, do you?"

No TOS violations are being committed
Some people are saying:  "I think the direction of such & such should be this because......"

and others are saying: "I disagree because......."
 

where is the "fight" of which you speak??

Cheers

Apparently you are

So just unsubscribe and leave the thread to those who choose to remain in the disussion.

Cheers

Gee...enough already.

Laurie

Quote - "I don't think that the comparison fits. DAZ sells it's content to Poser users and to Studio users, and they are trying to add new customers from other areas as well. I agree that a company should always try to get new customers, but it usually should try to keep the old customer base as well...."

Both companies are making this effort
But IMHO SM is doing a crap job at appealing to NEW customers where the true growth is found
While RDNA is to be Applauded for showcasing the poserpro/P9 features where are the premuim SSS renders& animation samples with the new animated constraint system on the SMITH MICRO web site??

I don't know how much of this is needed, and I don't know how the sales were going. But I don't have the impression that few people upgraded, and I've seen some new posters here, so I assume P9/Pro 2012 isn't really a fail.

Quote -

"There are no signs that the Poser community is very keen to switch to Studio, just because of Genesis."

No and you will not find any such signs.  D.A.Z .does not want you people.
They have their own marketing plan to get Comic artists and photoshop artist and short film animators to begin using DS
one look at their Front page make this much clear.

Yes, that's true, and I already confirmed that. I just have the feeling that they wouldn't really like to lose the Poser users. But I don't really know what they plan to do. This Poser exporter for Genesis, for example, is much to complicated as a mass product. Is this a real try to sell Genesis to Poser users?

Well, we will see how things work out.

Quote - ". Hard to say how successfully l, since most pro's are more likely to drop something very heavy on their own foot then admitting that they use Poser,"
 
Sorry but this is regurgitated NONSENSE!! based on ignorance not from talking to any "pros"
...

I'm surely biased when it comes to the Pro forums, and this wasn't really serious. Still, I would not expect all of them to proudly tell everyone that they used Poser. They use it to get the job done, but from what I've read in those forums, a lot of people think of Poser as a kind of cheat. A nessesary cheat maybe, but still nothing you use if you do not really need it. But I may be mistaken on that.

I'm not buying anymore Daz stuff. Their installers are a nightmare. There is no real readme file anymore. I have to save the web page. I need those readmes to find what I bought since everything has a weird name. I hate that they want to put links on my desktop, too. I just wonder what will happen after V4? Antonia?

I stumbled across one of those 'chest' threads at CGSociety a couple of days ago. I don't even think Poser was the initial focus though it and oddly, Vue were mentioned as mentioned. The consensus was that there was nothing wrong with using them or anything else short of piracy to get the job done. The only caveat was that prospective pros should learn to do things the old fashioned way first.

I've come to the conclusion that most of the carping doesn't come from real professionals. They're too pragmatic and too busy getting the job done. They don't have the time or the inclination to argue about this application or that one. Perhaps that should be food for thought here - you don't have to be a pro. 

Okay, DAZ changed the head whatever.  But, where there will be some changes made is still an open question.  Genesis came at a bad time, when Poser was working on the weight mapped figures, proceeding ahead on their own path which didn't correspond with DAZ.  And that's normal.

Not so much if DAZ and Poser users will divide sharply and completely, that probably won't happen.  What also won't happen is a Gen 4 version of the milkids, which may not be too far from understandable, support for the kids is less than clothes for the guys.  Nor will we have a Gen 4 David, which I use rarely, but occasionally.

The biggest gripe for me is about the time I finally learn to navigate the nightmare interface of DS, out comes a new "update", which is not an update, but a new version.  It may contain little but a couple of bug fixes, and yet another incomprehensible interface.  The first release of DS4 was the first I was able to do anything with, find my way around the interface, but within a month, the cry and hue of the DS users convinced DAZ to change it, several times since, and I haven't bothered to try it again.  It's almost like DS was in perpetual alpha stages, more work to try to keep up with than it's worth to me.  Repeat, to me.

Genesis is about one half step from useless in Poser, and Miki 3 can't be used in DS, touche.  Miki might not be the best figure ever put out, I don't use her, don't know, but I don't use oriental figures to begin with.  Aiko, have her, never used her, same with The Girl, not into that.  I do use the older poser figures, I use V3 some, V4 less.  Mike 3 a bit, Mike 4 less.  James isn't bad, Don is still usable, but more work.  Judy, I still use.  None of these figures are perfect, and V 5 won't be either.  There are some times I wish the poser figures bent better, but most of the time, they're under dynamic cloth and the real faults aren't seen.  Genesis wouldn't be one bit better for those uses. 

I sometimes think the support for the older figures will be pulled, but I have a lot already, I don't really see the need for nine tenths of what's being released.  Poserworld lifer here, they have a lot of support for a lot of figures.  How long that will continue, I have no idea.  Like the Gen 1 and 2 figures, there will come the day when a lot of content for 3 and 4 will be pulled from the stores, more or less forcing the end of them.  Such is the way of progress. 

DS isn't as costly as Poser, but also isn't as versatile, with the things it lacks.  as it stands now, someone watching Purplus would have seen PP2010 there for less than fifty bucks over the last weekend, less than DS4 standard.  The dynamic cloth in DS is available from one source as of now, and isn't compatible with Poser dynamics.  Nor will DS use Poser cloth, touche again.  There is no dynamic hair for DS, so the reason it's not as expensive isn't hard to see. 

Poser isn't the Rolls Royce of figure manipulation, it's probably a high end Chevy.   But with the state of DAZ right now, DS is the Yugo.  If they straighten out what's wrong with the program, stabilize the interface, then concentrate on the new figures, the change will have had some effect to the good.  If not, then it's just more of the same old same old.

It needs to be said that for every Poser user who has trouble using DAZ Studio, says it's interface is awful or calls it a "Yugo", there is a Studio user that has no problem creating art using the software. This isn't to say that Studio's interface is better than Poser's or vice versa, but saying that it's incomplete or otherwise faulty is untrue. I have no problems using Studio, just as I had no problems using Poser back when I did.

SnowS

Quote - It needs to be said that for every Poser user who has trouble using DAZ Studio, says it's interface is awful or calls it a "Yugo", there is a Studio user that has no problem creating art using the software.

Nor did I say there wasn't.  But, coming from the world of metalwork, where there are standards, and yes, more than a hundred years old and still in use, change for the sake of change is not good.  For those that can get along with the incomprehensible that changes often, fly with it.  For those that can't, and I'm one of them, all I can do is start looking for an alternative to DAZ figures, assuming I'll ever exhaust the possibilities of what I already have and will continue to use.  To me, the simplest and most straightforward interface in modeling programs is Wings3d, which I use a lot.  The other one I use, not really a modeler, is Povray.  Yet for both, there are some that I've read complaining about the interface.  Oh, really!  Right click, read the menu, and pick your action,  This is terribly complex, you understand.  (Full sarcsm mode off)

My whole point is that there are many changes that need to be done before DAZ will be on the same level as poser.  If the new head man sees that it is done, then for the good.  If not, for the status quo, going nowhere in real progress.

And just for you,

D.

"change for the sake of change is not good."

I'm not sure why you think any changes at DAZ or in Studio was change "for the sake of change".

"My whole point is that there are many changes that need to be done before DAZ will be on the same level as poser."

Again, this is entirely in the eyes of the user and their individual needs.

"And just for you,

D."

Hm?

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