Hello everyone.

I would like to open an official, honest and productive dialog with you,  the "Poser community"

It strikes me that there is a lot of misinformation being circulated here by people who mean well, but who may not necessarily have complete or accurate information. This misinformation can stir up emotions and sow the seeds of bitterness. So... as much as I am able, and in an official capacity... I would like to answer your questions and open a new lane of communication. I wont be able to answer every question, satisfy every desire or make Genesis magically work in Poser (we are already working as hard as we can on that.) but, what I would like to do is to engage in a positive, mutually beneficial discussion and I hope you will join me. 

I do not want to talk about the store, and things you want us to make or sell... Our gracious host, Renderosity, is providing this forum and I would like to respect that and not conflict with the normal course of their business.  Within that limitation, however, you should feel free to ask me anything you like.

Contrary to popular belief, DAZ 3D greatly values its Poser customers. We have been family for a very long time and I, for one, would like to start doing things to make that relationship all it can be.  

Thanks,

Randall Lloyd

Content Product Manager

DAZ 3D

If you would like to ask questions or have a private dialog, please email me at Randy@daz3d.com

MODs, I hope this thread is a legal one, i dont want to cause trouble :D

Good On you, Randall. Nice of you to drop in and offer to try to make things work! You deserve a lot of credit for that.

Dear Sir,

Why does content from the DAZ store use installers? Why can't I just unzip a runtime?

The installers:

• are flaky;

• restrict control over where content is installed;

• may refuse installation if another product is "missing" - why? Why must I have, for example, V4 to install V4 content. I may, quite legitimately, wish to use the content with another figure;

• are too long winded - very annoying if one is reinstalling or rebuilding the runtime structure.

My compliments,

Marc

May be this time we have a real discution ;)

I use Poser from version 2 and Daz Studio from the beginning.And now use last pro version of both. I also bouth may content stuff from the beginning of Daz  after Zygote 

I would use this opportunity to write why i appreciate more and more DazStudio pro for all its functions and bridge to others softs (like Photoshop and Poser) but still prefer to use Poser

I thinks that the content managment of DAZStudio is now better and better but still too complexe and each time i use DAz installers on it i am not sure where it instal the product and there are still some stuff i  never find it in my content libraries beside this using Poser is very simple

I seriously don't have a problem with Daz installers, except they are unnecessarily tedious with their clicks, which are reasonably meaningless to me. Legal nonsense which the pirates giggle at.

I always install stuff to a dummy runtime, whether it's a exe or a zip. Arrange stuff the way I want it then move stuff to the runtime of my choice.

Bit of a storm in a teacup, that one.

ETA: Look, it's just Daz saying: "We have control over this product. Anyone can make a zip: we use an installer!" I think it's meant to be like reassuring to customers?

It would be nice if you would split toe DS4 download into two parts. Some of us have slow or unreliable connections.

Just one little question ...

Poser community is enormous, the last version of poser is able to very realistic renders ( when people want work on it ), and able to use weightmap, more realistic bending ...

So why Genesis character is only for daz user, knowing that ? Creating the same figure for the two world is "plus" for you, no ?

(Sorry for my english, french ;) )

A vrai dire, ça ne fait rien... c'est une figure pour Daz Studio. Tout-simplement. L'avantage: Daz. Eh ben, tant pis.

The Poser (and Daz) community is really not enormous. The Cricut community is enormous. We're a drop in the bucket. Either Daz. Or Poser. or both.

Miniscule. (Tiens, ça marche dans l'anglais comme le français...)

Randall,

Once the CR2 Exporter is finished - Are there plans to provide poser format versions of the clothing, MAT files, Pose files and expressions of Genesis/V5 only products? Or do we have to go through an exporter for each of them?

Quote - A vrai dire, ça ne fait rien... c'est une figure pour Daz Studio. Tout-simplement. L'avantage: Daz. Eh ben, tant pis.

The Poser (and Daz) community is really not enormous. The Cricut community is enormous. We're a drop in the bucket. Either Daz. Or Poser. or both.

Miniscule. (Tiens, ça marche dans l'anglais comme le français...)

Ouais, mais Genesis est "weightmapped" ( please dont talk to me about antonia ;) )

D'accord, Genesis est Weight-mapped, mais dans Daz Studio, seulement. La technologie n'est pas de tout la meme - aucun semblance. Weight-map en Poser n'a rien a voir a weight-map en Das Studio 4.

And there lies the rub. Sure, someone can definitely come up with a conversion utility to allow DS weight-map technology to find a similar metaphor in Poser, and so work. But the lo-res mesh? That requires DS4 to really make use of their flavour of SubD  - Poser's smoothing is a different algorythm.

Is that really such a bad thing? You want V5: get DS4. Easy-peasy!

Hum ... I think you dont understand my POV ...  ;)

Quote - Hum ... I think you dont understand my POV ...  ;)

Quote - Ouais, mais Genesis est "weightmapped"

Alors? Cela veux dire quoi, exactement?

Randal. I know your meaning well but... Daz needs to look into the problems with the Staff. eg, the banning policy,

I was banned from your forums, on the very first offence, why? I blocked a moderators Email address. now lets be clear. I did not block his DAZ address. I blocked his PERSONAL address. I was told "Daz must be able to contace me by any means" and I was banned.

pardon? the fact this mod used his PERSONAL address to contact me for offical Daz business is not a security risk? how am I supposed to know he's a member of the daz staff? and thats not even counting the feelings of "who the hell do they think they are to tell me what I can or cannot do with my Email program?"

at that point Daz lost my trust and my custom.

roll n 2 years, and I watch a group being banned on a forum. no biggy. but when I see someone banned again for saying hello to someone (and the person that said hello got an email a few minuted later from a daz staff member asking if that was them!) what little trust I had dipped even further.

I know the Cult of daz will now attack me and tell me what I'm saying did'nt happen (sorry guys, it did and frankly shut up and rant elsewhere), but you Rand wanted honesty did'nt you?

Quote - MODs, I hope this thread is a legal one, i dont want to cause trouble :D

I think this is a good idea, I don't have a problem with this thread. Getting some official statements and a couple of facts surely isn't a bad thing. No trolling and no attacks, please.

I believe what Khai-J-Bach is talking about is what you referred to as "people who mean well, but who may not necessarily have complete or accurate information".

It's been adequately demonstrated that they do not "have complete or accurate information". May I make a suggestion. Go home to the Daz Forums and tell all of them to stay home in the Daz forums where they can behave that way: it's okay there. Just not here.

Because they will show up here. and ask that this thread be locked down. That has been their behaviour, Randall. They can't answer a question? they ask for a lockdown.

This is Rendo, Randall, not Daz. Heaven forbid that the same censorship rules apply here.

I'd say a couple of things:

1.  Oh, you noticed we were missing?  Way too little, way too late.

2.  You might want to wave the white flag without coming in here and labeling people "well meaning" liars.

Glitterati, this isn't a commerical and Randall did not ask you to come back and shop. I'm totally aware that there are some people here who have some problems with DAZ, and I'm sure they have their reasons, but pretty please - stick to questions or suggestions. 

Wow.  Someone offers actual information, and folks bite his head off.

Grow up.

Klebnor

Hopefully if this remains civil, it can be posted as a sticky so it won't get lost in the forum.  This approach is workable.

Quote - Glitterati, this isn't a commerical and Randall did not ask you to come back and shop. I'm totally aware that there are some people here who have some problems with DAZ, and I'm sure they have their reasons, but pretty please - stick to questions or suggestions. 

Don't mean to argue, but I'd really like to know how you might class this "It strikes me that there is a lot of misinformation being circulated here by people who mean well, but who may not necessarily have complete or accurate information. " as anything more than calling folks in here "well meaning liars."

Not the way you invite folks back to the fold, if you ask me.

I do believe I stuck to the topic at hand quite well.

Quite frankly, the only time DAZ comes over to RO is to provide some commercial relief to themselves.

Thanks for trying Randall. I think Daz needs to realize some people are upset (and understandably so) and the knee-jerk banning policy hasn't helped things. But at least Daz seems to be making an effort, so I guess it's all good. I however, am tired of discussing the whole thing. I'm over it. But I hope you can help the other folks find some solutions for Genny and for relations in general.

One thing tho: realizing people are upset and sometimes say things in haste or in anger and being understanding of it, and not banning someone at Daz for what they say somewhere else might be something to consider ;). People feel like they can't even speak their mind anymore. Just food for thought. I know it's not you personally doing it..lol, but perhaps you could pass that along :).

Laurie

Glitterati - please stick to questions or suggestions. Thank you.

I agree with all those who wish to keep it civil. And open.

Randal, you have - in Genesis - a relatively low-res mesh. Works a treat in DS4 but not all that optimally in Poser. Are you anticipating a higher-res mesh that will be generated during export from DS4? And would that high-res mesh support either the V4 morph set or the new V5 morph set?

Quote - Wow.  Someone offers actual information, and folks bite his head off.

Grow up.

...you expected differently? I'm surprised it took that long for the petulant sniping to begin from some of the usual suspects. 

Now on the other hand, Khai was fairly adult about it. Addressing that...

--

Quote - I know the Cult of daz will now attack me and tell me what I'm saying did'nt happen

Not my biz whether it did or didn't. OTOH, I'm curious as to the whole context of the story. IMHO if it was indeed only as presented, I'd rig an auto-reply saying that official business should only be conducted professionally. 

I'm doubly curious as to why this is aired in public, as opposed to being sorted in private...

--

Quote - Heaven forbid that the same censorship rules apply here.

Ah, irony... how do I love thee? Let me count the - pfffth. It's not even worth the effort anymore.

--

Quote - Glitterati, this isn't a commerical and Randall did not ask you to come back and shop. I'm totally aware that there are some people here who have some problems with DAZ, and I'm sure they have their reasons, but pretty please - stick to questions or suggestions.

And somewhere in the back of my mind, a voice booms out to the congregation...

"Can I get an A-men, bruthas and sistas! I say, can I get an a-MEN, bruthas and sistas!  Hal-leh-LU-jah! "

--

As to the topic...

Personally? I haven't been in or near the DAZ forums in quite a while - and voluntarily so. This is mostly because I don't fit the vibe, and I see well-crafted posts (not mine, mind) quickly drown there. I slip in and out of here on occasion over the years. 

Insofar as the product? It's okay, but the UI could use a bit of tweaking, and we're at a point where more controls could be introduced into the 3Delight renderer - at least so that things like AO and HDRI isn't such a pain in the ass to accomplish. I get better (albeit way the hell slower) results out of LuxRender nowadays. 

Of course, if someone would cough up a native Linux version of D|S that could slip into Ubuntu, I'd use it exclusively, warts and all. It's not like 2005 where we were drowning in distros and the dev team (all four of them) was having enough work just trying to push 1.0 out across two platforms and keeping the plugin folk happy. Things have got to be much calmer nowadays. Hell, I'd do it, but I have enough going on with my present employer as it is (building and maintaining back end software for the banking industry), and burnout sucks.

Anyrate, those are my wishes for the suite. 

As for the company? I have no clue as to what they're up to these days. No worries on that front, though.

It would be nice if DAZ put out a consistant message. 

for example:

1. claims Daz banned from Daz site anyone who was critical of genesis

2. Daz boss stated that Genesis was not Poser compatible, that Daz was not working to make it so, and if you are a Poser user then go away or switch to Daz Studio.

3. Product is not labelled as Poser compatible.

So this dialog is way too late, Daz has told Poser users to take a hike, so since Daz studio does not run on my system and there is no manual that I can find to try to get it working I guess I wont look to Daz for product anymore.

Quote - ...there is no manual that I can find to try to get it working...

I did see this show up recently: http://www.daz3d.com/i/3d-models/-/getting-started-with?item=13531&spmeta=ab

• edited by bantha

Hi Randall,

Thanks for taking the time to make yourself available for questions here.

You mention that there's been some misinformation here, and that's undoubtedly so - few people are privy to what is really going on and those that do know are under non-disclosure agreements.

Rather than just waiting for people to post whatever is on their minds perhaps it would be better if you identified the misinformation to which you were referring and clarify it from DAZ's perspective?

That way we get a sensible place from which start asking pertinent questions.

Snarly makes a good point. The man had something in mind when he made his post. I'd like to know what it was. Of course, comments toward any of the other issues raised are welcomed by me personally, as I subscribe to most of the complains as well.

Let's let this settle down and see what's on his mind.

Is this thread satire?  Where's OP?

With regard to the inability to use the Genesis figure to its full potential within Poser, and given that DAZ would presumably like Posers users to invest in the Genesis range of products, what outcome would DAZ like to see?

Specifically, what solution is preferred by DAZ and what does DAZ see as the required steps (and by whom) to achieve cross-platform compatibility?

I'd appreciate it if your answer could address specific issues, rather than something along the lines of 'SM needs to work with us and build support for Genesis'  - I'm looking for something more tangible.

Is there still some technology that either party needs to build into their code base? Is the file format an issue? Are there legal issues? That kind of thing.

maybe, some product support for Poser characters in the Daz store?

it would be a pleasant surprise to see a Daz original clothes item for James or Sydney.

This is why there is such annimosity between the two program followers. Instead of immediately bashing somebody that posts, why dont we all show some contraint and be the "bigger person".  Let the man answer honest questions that arent hostile?

Lzy724,

I agree... however, as William the Bloody has refered to, the OP has been marked "online now" for several hours and we're still waiting for the first response.

LOL, I wouldnt want to reply in here either, its rather hostile.

Quote - Dear Sir,

Why does content from the DAZ store use installers? Why can't I just unzip a runtime?

The installers:

• are flaky;

• restrict control over where content is installed;

• may refuse installation if another product is "missing" - why? Why must I have, for example, V4 to install V4 content. I may, quite legitimately, wish to use the content with another figure;

• are too long winded - very annoying if one is reinstalling or rebuilding the runtime structure.

My compliments,

Marc

I have the same issue also, it's a headache with a Mac since they now use intel processors and powerpc is absolete. please correct your files.

There are a lot of locked threads in the DAZ commons on the same subject, reason given is usually that they've turned into DAZ vs Poser flamefests.  The majority of the DAZ users think poser should change to accommodate the genesis figure, okay, maybe some change should be made.  But mention that the first change that should be made is DAZ stop changing the interface with each new version, or that DAZ doesn't have updates, they only have new versions, and it's going to be locked. 

I really don't care, Randall, the first version of DS4, I could at least navigate the interface, but it wasn't a week before that changed, yet again.  At the insistense of the DAZ only users, and no regard to those that can't get their heads around the ever changing incomprehensible.  When the serial for that version expired, "so sad, too bad", learn the latest incarnation of the incomprehensible, and oh, by the way, no manual. 

When you're trying to attract users from another program, you're going to get a lot of comparisons between the two, and usually not in a complimentary manner.  When the full version prices of the two, say, DS4Pro and PP2012 are only a few dollars apart, to gain new users, you have to offer something more than a "New!  Improved!  Obsoletes all older!" to gain anything.  Like a manual that's somewhat readable and understandable.  'NUff said.

Quote - LOL, I wouldnt want to reply in here either, its rather hostile.

If you'll bother to look at the current 24 days of Christmas giveaway over there, you'll see that the hostility is being generated BY them.

There's one day in 8 where Poser users have been invited to participate in the Christmas giveaway, with a product useable by Poser users. 

That pretty much says it all.  Poser users are not welcome, nor are they appreciated.

You can't come to a Poser forum with that being sponsored by your company and expect anything BUT hostility.

I get the message.  Works for me.  I suspect most Poser users are hearing the message loud and clear - bring your money but nothing else.

I prefer to do business at companies who appreciate more than my money.

Well unlike most people, I tend to avoid the threads that become nothing but a ridiculous childrens sandbox battle.  I dont read them, nor do I care.  I would like to have the correct information though, but you can never get past the HE said SHE said crap.  It all getting to be just a bit stupid for me.  So, nope, didnt read that. 

I do have concerns that most of the stuff being released is Genesis only.  I hate the installers, but I still shop at daz when a nice building comes out.  That is about all I get anymore that can still be poser compatible. 

I also hate the fact that loud opinions are deleted, threads are locked, etc... cant say you dont like anything anywhere anymore. 

Quote - Dear Sir,

Why does content from the DAZ store use installers? Why can't I just unzip a runtime?

The installers:

• are flaky;

• restrict control over where content is installed;

• may refuse installation if another product is "missing" - why? Why must I have, for example, V4 to install V4 content. I may, quite legitimately, wish to use the content with another figure;

• are too long winded - very annoying if one is reinstalling or rebuilding the runtime structure.

My compliments,

Marc

One of our main projects right now is to revamp the download and install experience. We realize it's a pain and we are fixing it as a high-priority

Quote - One of our main projects right now is to revamp the download and install experience. We realize it's a pain and we are fixing it as a high-priority

Might one ask HOW you are fixing it?

Ok, I will REPEAT bantha's request that this thread not turn into an Us. Vs. Them thread. Those threads, as everyone has been told repeatedly, ARE NOT WELCOME HERE.  So, let's let Rand have some time to answer.  His status here shows he's online.  That doesn't mean anything.  He could have closed his browser up to 1/2 an hour ago. Or, this could be one among several tabs he's got open.  Also likely is that he wants to answer, and is making sure his answer is correct before he posts it, so that the likelihood for retraction is minimized.

We understand that there are those of you who aren't happy with DAZ.  Nothing that Rand posts will appease you, I know this from years in this community.  If you're here to start a fight, you're in the wrong place, period.  We don't tolerate site fights here, period. 

edit looks like Rand beat me to the punch and started answering ;)

Quote - If you'll bother to look at the current 24 days of Christmas giveaway over there, you'll see that the hostility is being generated BY them. There's one day in 8 where Poser users have been invited to participate in the Christmas giveaway, with a product useable by Poser users. 

That pretty much says it all.  Poser users are not welcome, nor are they appreciated.

Nonsense.  DAZ has no control over what items are created for the "24 Days of Christmas."  That isn't done by DAZ; the items are created by individual vendors who make whatever they want to.  It just so happens that the first several items were for DAZ Studio.  So what?  There might be a string of ten items for Poser.  Would that mean that DS users aren't welcome?  No-- and neither does the string of DS items mean that Poser users aren't welcome.

On top of that, these are FREE items that vendors are making and giving away.  Nobody's forcing them to do it and they're not being paid to do it; they're doing it because they want to.  It is stupendously arrogant to criticize a free item because it doesn't work in your program of choice, or for any other "reason."  You are not "entitled" to the benefit of other people's time and work.  You are not "entitled" to get ANYthing for free.  And you are not "entitled" to complain if a free item isn't to your liking or doesn't work in your preferred program.

Quote - I use Poser from version 2 and Daz Studio from the beginning.And now use last pro version of both. I also bouth may content stuff from the beginning of Daz  after Zygote 

I would use this opportunity to write why i appreciate more and more DazStudio pro for all its functions and bridge to others softs (like Photoshop and Poser) but still prefer to use Poser

I thinks that the content managment of DAZStudio is now better and better but still too complexe and each time i use DAz installers on it i am not sure where it instal the product and there are still some stuff i  never find it in my content libraries beside this using Poser is very simple

Our content management is actually quite powerful and flexible... I really love it and I have mine all tricked out and customized i dont know what i ever did without it. It can even work just like it has always worked because it can still use the runtime poser paradigm. We realize that the main problem is that we have not provided adequate education resources to help everyone adapt and understand. You will see this improved with the new DL and install process that is under development.

It is also one of the main directives of the company to finish out our documentation. You can view our online docs as we fill them in at http://docs.daz3d.com

If you would like personal assistance in settining it up and understanding how it works, I would be happy to personally work with you to figure it out.

Quote - It would be nice if you would split toe DS4 download into two parts. Some of us have slow or unreliable connections.

This will become irrelevant under the new DL and install system... but before that gets implemented, you may still see a separate content installer... Even if its short-lived.  The problem is that we have been upgrading our default content as fast as we have be updating DS4 so the Full DL was needed to stay current.

Like I said, though, you won't have to worry abut this once the improvements we are working on have been implemented

Quote - > Quote - If you'll bother to look at the current 24 days of Christmas giveaway over there, you'll see that the hostility is being generated BY them. There's one day in 8 where Poser users have been invited to participate in the Christmas giveaway, with a product useable by Poser users. 

That pretty much says it all.  Poser users are not welcome, nor are they appreciated.

Nonsense.  DAZ has no control over what items are created for the "24 Days of Christmas."  That isn't done by DAZ; the items are created by individual vendors who make whatever they want to.  It just so happens that the first several items were for DAZ Studio.  So what?  There might be a string of ten items for Poser.  Would that mean that DS users aren't welcome?  No-- and neither does the string of DS items mean that Poser users aren't welcome.

On top of that, these are FREE items that vendors are making and giving away.  Nobody's forcing them to do it and they're not being paid to do it; they're doing it because they want to.  It is stupendously arrogant to criticize a free item because it doesn't work in your program of choice, or for any other "reason."  You are not "entitled" to the benefit of other people's time and work.  You are not "entitled" to get ANYthing for free.  And you are not "entitled" to complain if a free item isn't to your liking or doesn't work in your preferred program.

 

 

The problem is the MESSAGE you are delivering.  Here.  And.  There.

Thanks for reiterating my point.

The arguing needs to stop, NOW.  Period.  Take it to sitemail.

Quote - > Quote - LOL, I wouldnt want to reply in here either, its rather hostile.

If you'll bother to look at the current 24 days of Christmas giveaway over there, you'll see that the hostility is being generated BY them.

There's one day in 8 where Poser users have been invited to participate in the Christmas giveaway, with a product useable by Poser users. 

That pretty much says it all.  Poser users are not welcome, nor are they appreciated.

You can't come to a Poser forum with that being sponsored by your company and expect anything BUT hostility.

I get the message.  Works for me.  I suspect most Poser users are hearing the message loud and clear - bring your money but nothing else.

I prefer to do business at companies who appreciate more than my money.

As the person who manages the 24 Days of Christmas giveaway thread I feel I need to respond to this.

 The gifts are given by DAZ PA's as a thank you to customers.  This is the first year that most of the gifts that have come in are for DAZ Studio.  There will be more Poser content coming in as time goes on.  I cannot give out what has not come in.  It's that simple. 

I'd echo the wish to get away from those installers - and would love to hear what direction you're planning, as current installers seem worse than ever.