We have seen some amazing new talent and skills being brought to the Photgraphy Gallery lately.  And with these things, many photos have ended up being moved to the 2D Gallery or the Mixed Medium Gallery.

I want to remind everyone that there is a line that an artist can cross with postwork that changes the location for posting.

The most common reason for moving a photo lately has been when art style-type filters are used. That would be a photograph that has a poster, sketch/line drawing, or painting effect filter applied. The result is amazing and very appealing, but poster art, etc. is 2 dimensional, as are paintings and drawings. Watercolor is a painting. Palette knife is a painting.  It is not how you started your image, it is the final result that is viewed, so please look carefully at your work before you post and if it no longer looks like a photo, but like something bought at an art auction to hang on your wall with your Rembrant, please upload it to the 2D Gallery.

Not seen as often but still something to think about, is photo manipulation.  To keep your photo manipulation in the Photography Gallery, you must only choose pieces of your own photo work to create your composition.  If you are using a stock photo or someone else's photo, or parts of it, or if you are adding non-photographic elements such as lightning bolts, stars, or fairies, etc., you need to upload your image to the Mixed Medium Gallery.  Only photographs or parts of photographs you took yourself are permitted in the Photography Gallery.

Following these two guidelines when posting, will cut your chances of getting one of those friendly, yet irritating letters from us saying we have had to "put hands" on your post. :-)

In closing, please double check your upload in the gallery after you have posted it.  Errors are common in choosing the gallery to upload to in the drop-down menu.  Poser and Photography are next to each other and it is very easy to hit the wrong gallery selection when you are in a hurry. 

Putting your images in the correct gallery for your type of image, brings more views, comments and ratings from the largest crowd who has interest in your type of work.  I would think posting to the Poser Gallery when you meant to post in the Photography Gallery would cause you to lose precious viewing time by photographers who normally wouldn't be viewing the Poser Gallery, and visa versa.

Thank you for listening, and to all, you are part of the most wonderful artist community on the web. I enjoy knowing each and every one of you. 

PK.

Thank you for informing us.

God Bless.

Yes, thank you for the information. I often daubt, what to choose.  I´ll do my best. :)

Well, as long as you dont have oily fingers, you can "put Hands" on my post. LOL !

Love your humor, Helle.

There are 2 things to keep in mind... (1) if in doubt, send a copy of the proposed upload to one of us on the Photo Team or (2) do the best you can when choosing a gallery.

It is sometimes a fine line that separates galleries and everyone who reaches outside the box to create the ultimate art piece will find themselves wondering what to do. None of the Team minds helping you, before or after, posting.  But I also know that some artists do not like being contacted or told their post has been moved so for those who don't want that to happen, I hope my information has helped. 

Bottom line, everyone of us has made or probably will make an error in posting.  It's not life-threatening when that happens. :-)

I've been thinking about this ever since you posted the thread, but haven't had time to get here and talk about it. 

As a contributor and regular visitor to both Photography and 2-D, can I share my concerns about this?

It will be easier if I can give some examples:

Here's a photograph that's basically straight out of the camera.  I know it LOOKS like a painting, but I assure you it's "pure"  --  http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=2299030&user_id=481818&member&np

Here's a photograph that I postworked to look like a hand-done piece --- totally postworked in Photoshop  http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=2290735&user_id=481818&page=2&member&np

From time to time I do actual paintings, so nobody who knows me would be at all surprised if I posted a painting in the 2-D gallery.  (Well, Helle would be surprised that I'd got around to it, because I don't do many despite her encouragement, but it isn't outside the realm of possibility.)  If I posted either of the above images in 2-D, nobody would bat an eye.  They'd think I'd painted them both unless I specifically said I hadn't.  My concern isn't so much about what goes in the Photography gallery, but what ends up in 2-D!  There are a lot of talented artists who go to a lot of trouble to hone their craft and learn to paint with traditional materials or digitally, and I assure you it's a lot more work than fiddling with filters!  Not that getting a painterly result with filters is easy mind you, but it's a whole different skill set.  I'm a lot more impressed with someone who can paint something from scratch than someone who can competently use Photoshop, mainly because I do both and know which one produces more sweat and anguish!

I'd rather see a photograph, no matter how postworked it is, in the Photography gallery, simply because posting it in 2-D is a cheat, imho!  Posting that 2nd image (the heavily filtered photograph) in photography, at least everyone knows it's not a painting.

That being said, I TOTALLY agree with you about stars and fairies and added bits.  The minute I add someone else's image to my work, even if it's a photograph from the public domain (or even one from my husband's files), or if I use a Photoshop brush (even if I made it myself), I post it in 2-D and say what's my own and credit what's borrowed.

It seems like you're trying to define a line that's basically indefinable.  I could show you work from my gallery that ranges from pure photography to total postwork, and at some point there would be an image we couldn't classify into one category or another.  (This isn't about me, btw ... I'm just using myself as an example because I don't want to drag anybody else's specific work along with me just in case you get mad!  LOL!)  I often use one of the filters you mentioned and back it down to 20% or so, which gives a bit of an effect but doesn't take the image into the realm of "flat" artwork.  At what point do we say the filter I've used is too much?

This is all by way of saying that I'd love it if you'd consider moving the line a bit.  It seems to me it would be very easy to draw the line at anything that didn't start out as your own photograph.  For example, if I post my own photograph, no matter how it's postworked, and I add a few stars with a Photoshop brush, or some text, or use a tiny bit of somebody else's work, or add something with a paintbrush, it doesn't belong in Photography any more.  But if it's 100% my own work, and 100% photography, even if it's postworked to look like a line drawing, it's still photography and NOT an actual line drawing.

All I can do is ask that you consider it.  I know exactly the sort of work you're talking about, and when it's well done it DOES look like a hand-colored line drawing, but nevertheless ... it isn't.  It's photography.  The artists who produce that sort of thing are photographers and outstanding postworkers, but they are NOT traditional artists, and it I don't think it's right that their work be placed in the same category as someone who knows how to take pencils and watercolors and make colored line drawings by hand!

Okay ... there's my two cents worth.  I hope you'll think about it again.

Thanks!  :)

Very good points Tara!

I agree here :-)

And what if I mix 4 of my own photos together and use some filters... ???

And what if I tube one of my own photos and place the tube in my own other photo?

We can't do anything more than take each image on a case-by-case basis. The opinions on 2D art is endless - I have read up on this and Mixed Medium art for over a year now, looking for an easier way to describe it.  After great discussion, I have decided it stands as it is. Its clearer this way than attaching a 3 page information sheet to the top of the forum giving exceptions, rules and such.

I understand the feeling that if it starts a photo, it is a photo.

Tara, if you notice, that photo of the trees was left in Photography because I could see it wasn't a painting. I also could tell it wasn't a flat image for 2D.  And the pond and tree shot also.  They retained enough to say they were still enough photograph to stay in the Photo Gallery. 

I have seen both of these, as well as every other upload to the Photo, 2D and Mixed Medium Galleries that has been made in the last 2 years.  The ones that were moved, have explanations in their notification just like the one in this thread.  I only thought I'd share it to help people out.

There are at least 4 members who have come back after a long "vacation" and 3 new members who are posting for the first time, and all of them are having problems deciding where to post their heavily postworked 2D photos. 

I'd say, unless you've had something moved to 2D you are doing fine. And even if you have had one or two moved, at least you know a little better why that might have happened.

I like to make grilled burgers. When I set them on the table and get ready to eat, they are burgers.  They are not cows.  They are made from cows but I don't think any one will tell me to not bring cows into the kitchen. :-)

ROFL!

Fair enough!  :)

Thanks!

I lean towards Tara’s feelings but understand your message PK.  I have posted 1,282 photos and have had two turned to 2D.  A very small percentage!  I accepted the change of the tapestry photo since it was basically flat and I learned from that.  And I agree with your explanation above PK.  The second was a photo, of a huge 3 dimensional piece, of over a hundred metal butterflies.  It was layered to about 5 to 6 inches (12.7 to 15.24cm) deep.  I guess that what I am trying to say is that the photographer knows his/her photo best.  I have never used Photoshop or any other postwork other than a minor change in lighting.  But I do enjoy those that postwork the background to enhance their main subject or object.  I also enjoy the Fractalius software filter even though it can alter the entire photo.  I would not like to see either process lost from the photography genre. 

Thank you so much for these explanations, PK. It was certainly needed as I sometimes doubt about the choice to make when I upload an image.

As for me, it happened only once that a moderator change the category of my artwork and I didn't mind at all :-)

I just have one more question : when I use a photo as background and a Poser render should I put it in the Poser gallery or the mixed medium gallery (intended that the Poser work is mine and the background mot necessary from me...)

Extended EXIF data shows every action, every save, every filter etc... that is used on a single file. If you look through this information (as an admin/mod/cord) I think that may be easier to determine the extent of postwork. I'm not sure if Renderosity completely wipes this information when uploading, I know it preserves some EXIF data(like camera model, aperture etc...).

Thank you kojabeek, but as I mentioned, it is not how it started out or necessarily how it is changed with postwork, it is the appearance of the finished product. A photo of an oil painting on canvass without including any of the frame or background on which the painting is placed would also be 2D here at Renderosity.  :-)

virginiese, When combining Poser and a stock image, you have the option of Poser or Mixed Medium for galleries.  Poser does not restrict the completed composition to only Poser elements but the majority of it should be Poser to upload to that gallery.  You can always chose the Mixed Medium Gallery instead because that gallery accepts any two or more mediums. That way, if anyone is in doubt about which software gallery to pick, they know they are always safe in the Mixed Medium Gallery.

Quote - Thank you kojabeek, but as I mentioned, it is not how it started out or necessarily how it is changed with postwork, it is the appearance of the finished product. A photo of an oil painting on canvass without including any of the frame or background on which the painting is placed would also be 2D here at Renderosity.  :-)

virginiese, When combining Poser and a stock image, you have the option of Poser or Mixed Medium for galleries.  Poser does not restrict the completed composition to only Poser elements but the majority of it should be Poser to upload to that gallery.  You can always chose the Mixed Medium Gallery instead because that gallery accepts any two or more mediums. That way, if anyone is in doubt about which software gallery to pick, they know they are always safe in the Mixed Medium Gallery.

I think you misunderstand why I bring up EXIF data. It's not just going to show the make, and model of a camera and the settings. If preserved it can show the extent of what has been done to an image. I say this because of the potential mix up that an image that looks painted may in fact be a legitimate image.

Work from, let's say, Sally Mann, is not postworked. You may consider her work to be mixed media when it's 100% photography. Or even Annie Leibovitz, her workd is 'painted' photography.

There are lenses like Lensbaby, using toy cameras, heck even pinholes and pantyhose that can make the world look painted.

I don't do mixed media that often, and never had my work moved. I can understand why you want to fix this issue, and I'm not agaisnt it.

Thank you for your answer PK, it is much more clearer to me now !

I did not misunderstand, kokabeel.  For our purposes here, the technicalities of what is done is not as relavent as what does the finished product look like.  That is how we determine what goes in 2D. A photo of a painting is a photo. But it can also be 2D if the frame is not included in the photo. We can ask for the EXIF data if we feel it is necessary, but in most cases, we ask for 6-10 people to look at theimage and tell us if it looks like a photo or like 2D. The majority opinion tells us what it looks like to the majority of people.  Regardless of how it was done, it will look like a flat image or a 3D image. :-)

This thread was meant to help members understand how we classify 2D images. It has always been done this way but some new members are not aware of the 2D gallery and I was hoping this would introduce them to that option.

It's also worthy to note that if an image is moved to ANY gallery and the artist feels strongly enough in opposition, we will listen carefully to their objection and if we are shown to be wrong, we will galdly correct our error. :-)

Glad i was not the one asking the questions here-Almost a polite war of different opinions...

Before i forget what i was about to say...EXIF data can quite easily be removed before uploading whereby it cannot be recovered by anyone...

A photographer knows when a photograph has reached the end of life as a photograph after it has been manipulated.

If they want to continue posting the image as a photograph they then perhaps should attend photography classes or simply post it for what it is-Mixed medium.

Tweaking an image is one thing but changing the whole image into something that it was not is beyond the acceptability of remaining a photograph...

Quote - Before i forget what i was about to say...EXIF data can quite easily be removed before uploading whereby it cannot be recovered by anyone...

Thus why I said "IF PRESERVED" the EXIF can show the full extent to what has been done to a specific photo.  

Quote - It's also worthy to note that if an image is moved to ANY gallery and the artist feels strongly enough in opposition, we will listen carefully to their objection and if we are shown to be wrong, we will galdly correct our error. :-)

This is why I brought up EXIF. I understand fully mistakes can be made. However, there are many different mediums in photography than just pressing down the shutter(pinhole,various sfx lenses etc...). It can make a photo appear painted, distored etc... I'm just hoping everyone who is juding the potentially misplaced photos knows this.Some may, or may not be familiar with it(general), and not sure how something was done.

Again, since people seem to think I'm agaisnt this(judging by the tone of some people).I'm for re-estabilishing the rules of Renderosity, and this(which I ALREADY said in my first post!). It's that there's a lot to think about, and look at when judging the work of someone else.

I do appreciate thoughts.

I don't think that anyone who has had an image moved to 2D or Mixed Medium will say I or the other members of the Photography Team have been unfair. At times, we have reversed our decisions. But most of the time, members understand exactly why it was done and are fine with our explanation of why. 

Yes, kokabeel, the team is not just staff...we are also photographers and artists and understand the levels of postwork. We are always fair, and we have extensive knowledge in postworking photos.  At some point, I hope we can show you and others that this Photography and 2D team members are trustworthy and will do whatever we can to work "with" and not "on" the community.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/browse.php?user_id=672104

What do you think ?

I love some of  FANTASTICFRACTALS  work and i envy him his skill's but this i believe would be regarded as overkill whereby the photograph would no longer be accepted as a photograph.

At the end of the day if a photograph cannot be recognised as a true photograph because of manipulation using software it then should no longer be regarded as a photograph but as mixed medium....

A photograph should be restricted to simple adjustments of contrast brightness colour tone etc and the addition of a frame at the most.

I bought a camera to take photograph's not to make render's or fractal's if i had wanted to do either of the latter i would have purchased software rather than the camera...

I do not feel this discussion is appropriate. Did you ask him if you could critique that work in this forum?  There has been a report and staff is currently reviewing this question.  Please do not reference any posts other than your own.