Daz's Prices have gone way too high. I like that I can still find nice little buys Here and at Renderosity & dna.

I can't see paying $26.00 to $38.00 for a product.

Why isn't their new out fits for the Kids 4.

thank you modlers for still doing Poser products.

DAZ did discontinue K4 base freebies.  Maybe they are just relying on their Genesis model to take up that slack.

Quote - Daz's Prices have gone way too high. I like that I can still find nice little buys Here and at Renderosity & dna.

I can't see paying $26.00 to $38.00 for a product.

Why isn't their new out fits for the Kids 4.

thank you modlers for still doing Poser products.

more like they are charging what they should be after years of artifically low prices.

I agree with Khai. You must not have been around back in the early 2000's...lol. Prices were higher then than even now. I paid well over 100 bucks (closer to two) for Vicky 1, her morphs, her textures (which any texture at ALL was extra back in those days). Daz trashed prices by giving all kinds of stuff away for free - and then everyone expected the stuff for nearly free. Now they're trying to bring them back up. Not sure if it's gonna fly, but time will tell I guess ;). The prices now are actually close to where they should be.

As hobbies go, Poser is one of the cheaper ones. My jewelry making hobby was a LOT more expensive. Painting too. It takes a lot of work to make a Poser product and the last few years were meager compensation for that work.

Laurie

At the moment the "real" prizes are probably higher because they are sold at 50% off for a day. 

Any other day of the year they work with glamour - super looking renders and a nice discount if you join their platclub. Worked for a long time when I had a credit card to max out - now that money is tigth I shop other places, too.

The Kids 4 as the male figure don't get attention as stuff for them doesn't sell - say creators.

"more like they are charging what they should be after years of artifically low prices."

*What causes a rise for bits and bytes? The ever sinking cost of storage space? More talented people flooding the market?

Quote - *What causes a rise for bits and bytes? The ever sinking cost of storage space? More talented people flooding the market?

Spoken like a true consumer...lol.

The very day you sit down and do a texture set or create a clothing set or hair or hair texture, come back here and tell me what you think of Poser prices ;). With al lthe time spent making it, packing it, doing promos and thumbnails - then REALLY lucky if you sell 20 (probably closer to 10-15 and the brokerage gets half of it)...well, you decide.

Laurie

Quote - "more like they are charging what they should be after years of artifically low prices."

*What causes a rise for bits and bytes? The ever sinking cost of storage space? More talented people flooding the market?

 *no simple economics. each hour you spend making an item, you are spending 1 hour you could have been working. so, here the minimum wage is £6.10. so 10 hours on a set, thats £61.00. now to break even, you need to make £61.some sets can take 50 - 60 hours to make... and never reach back their investment due to the artifically low market.

now many will say "but use free software it does not cost you anything..." it does. I'm still paying Electricty etc.

*those that say "but your a hobbyiest" is that an excuse? would you tell the man in the electrical shop, that TV thats £450, it should be £4.5, cos he's a hobbiest? no. you would'nt. so lets stop insulting those merchants that work damned hard to make things to sell here and in other poser stores.

I'm not saying that things should be expensive. I'm saying the creators should get a fair price.. not be told something should be priced and next to nothing and never make it's intial outlay back.

in the non digital world, doing that has a name. it's called Bankrupcy.

Yep, sorta makes ya wonder why ppl still bother to do it. Only the most popular and prolific vendors make any real money. Even then, they aren't getting rich off of it - not by a long shot..lol.

Laurie

Laurie, Khai = Although I agree with all your arguments, there is one thing which you are forgetting:

The budget of the buyer does not increase so he/she has to make choices and less items are sold

Well it sure is a shame, I am always interested in some new clothing for the K4, but I really only get unique ones from here.  Thank goodness some people are making interesting outfits.  Sharen

I agree, prices had been much higher--but what determines what the best price is?  I can still find a lot of things for less than $20.00 at Daz (plus weekly freebies worth $10-$20),  the very expensive items I will wait until I can get them on sale.  I think more complex models which include a lot of accessories should be more expensive than more simple ones.   If you look at what is being sold now, it's increasingly more complex with more options than the stuff available in the past.  I guess it's a balancing act, you have to decide what you really need for whatever projects you are doing and wait for a voucher or discount on the other items. 

It's really a supply and demand type of thing, if people aren't buying then most likely prices are too high.  I don't think that prices were too low in the past--the actual 3D software was more expensive.  I think a lot of stuff Daz gave away was just to encourage more sales--like when the generation 3 figures were free--sure they were free, but they were extremely limited as to what a person could do with them in their free forms--so someone who really wanted to do stuff with them would have to buy textures, characters, clothing, hair, etc.  The freebie is the hook and I'm sure it's a stragegy that works.  It's like with the Genesis thing and the free Daz Studio 4; yes it came with shapes for a basic male, female, and child and few clothing items and some very plain maps--but I immediately starting buying morph packs and textures because there wasn't much I could do with what came with the program.

With inflation the way it is I agree that a content provider also needs to take into consideration what the customers can afford as wimvdb pointed out.  If I were a vendor I'd rather sell more items at a lower price than mark something so high that I would only sell a few units.  The expense of things has been rising faster than my paycheck, therefore there are some hard choices that have to be made sometimes.

Quote - > Quote - *What causes a rise for bits and bytes? The ever sinking cost of storage space? More talented people flooding the market?

Spoken like a true consumer...lol.

The very day you sit down and do a texture set or create a clothing set or hair or hair texture, come back here and tell me what you think of Poser prices ;). With al lthe time spent making it, packing it, doing promos and thumbnails - then REALLY lucky if you sell 20 (probably closer to 10-15 and the brokerage gets half of it)...well, you decide.

Laurie

Ummm... ok. You can't know, but of course I've tried all of that - who doesn't after a while? - and I failed.  And I can still go with what I said above.

I have the utmost respect for modellers and what they do. Honestly. A lot of them do and/or would get my money. I enjoyed and benefitted from a lot of great freebies. I'm sorry not all of those can make a living with their hobby/talent/skill.

It's maybe just my personal experience, but... after a few years reaping DAZs generous offers I quit the club. Because I compared quality and prizes there with Rendo and RDNA and found that I could spend $20 on 4 items rather than just one.

And I really don't feel like I bought something worse because it was cheaper. And without a string of vouchers, coupons or special sales needed, too.

Quote - Laurie, Khai = Although I agree with all your arguments, there is one thing which you are forgetting:

The budget of the buyer does not increase so he/she has to make choices and less items are sold

Well, of all times in the global economy when it's the WORST time to send prices back to where they should be, it's probably now...lol. You don't raise prices when ppl have even LESS money to spend then they used to. However, I still say prices have been way too low the last couple years. It's inevitable that some will complain they they go up.

I think about what I used to buy when prices were higher compared to the shopping spree we've had the last 6 or 7 years. And the one glaring difference I can see is that I was a lot more picky about what I bought when things were more expensive. When they were cheap I bought stuff willy nilly and haven't ever used the half of it. What difference does that make? It means that I was a whole lot less choosy. For the same amount of money spent I have a lot more junk I never use and still about the same amount of things that I do use. So in essence, at least for me, I paid the higher price anyway ;). I don't really thing I'm alone. I watch what ppl post during a sale and I come away with the distinct feeling that some of us just live to spend on this stuff...LOL.

Laurie

Those of us that were around then gladly paid this. Because that was a fair price. Take a trip to Turbosquid and look at prices of you want to cry...lol. We're spoiled. It's true. Much as nobody like's to hear it, we are REALLY spoiled ;).

Laurie

Quote - > Quote - Laurie, Khai = Although I agree with all your arguments, there is one thing which you are forgetting:

The budget of the buyer does not increase so he/she has to make choices and less items are sold

Well, of all times in the global economy when it's the WORST time to send prices back to where they should be, it's probably now...lol. You don't raise prices when ppl have even LESS money to spend then they used to. However, I still say prices have been way too low the last couple years. It's inevitable that some will complain they they go up.

I think about what I used to buy when prices were higher compared to the shopping spree we've had the last 6 or 7 years. And the one glaring difference I can see is that I was a lot more picky about what I bought when things were more expensive. When they were cheap I bought stuff willy nilly and haven't ever used the half of it. What difference does that make? It means that I was a whole lot less choosy. For the same amount of money spent I have a lot more junk I never use and still about the same amount of things that I do use. So in essence, at least for me, I paid the higher price anyway ;). I don't really thing I'm alone. I watch what ppl post during a sale and I come away with the distinct feeling that some of us just live to spend on this stuff...LOL.

Laurie

I completely agree. You think a lot more about where you spend your money on. But that also means that niche products will have a difficult time. I sometimes buy products because I want to support the artist and encourage him/her to make similar things which I have a use for. With the higher prices I will wait until I need it if that time ever comes.

For me there is the barrier of 10$. If something is priced higher I make a conscious decision to purchase, if the price is lower I drop in in my cart if I like it

At DAZ I now wait until I actually want to use/need something. I pay a higher price, but in the end I spend a lot less because I did not purchase the things I don't use.

I know higher prices mean that some will stop spending. That's the way things work. And I'm not gonna make any friends with this next statement...lol. But just so that anyone thinks it's aimed at anyone in particular it's not:

After prices dropped and people bought more than they would probably ever use, the market did indeed get busier. However, it also meant that every Tom, Dick and Mary decided "I'm gonna sell something" cause, well...people tend to buy a $10 pack of 12 flood fill textures than they do a $10 pack of 3 awesome textures cause, well...there's TWELVE (even if they so totally suck and it's something anyone with half a brain can do in 5 minutes for themselves). But I digress...

Some may not believe this but when prices dropped, quality dropped shortly thereafter. Sure, ya could have those 12 crappy textures for the same price as the three really good ones, but is that a good thing either? Not only did prices and quality go down, but some got lazy cause they why do it yourself when you can buy it?

I could argue this all day long. The consumers who want their stuff cheap will feel justified in what they think. People like me feel totally justified in what we think. But the truth is when I see ppl (in the name of low prices) joke that "I still have to pay rent this month" I gotta wonder if we have a problem. Maybe prices should go up just so that we can keep this as a hobby in perspective.

/rant

Laurie

There are a few vendors I could name off the top of my head that always have higher prices but their work is of such excellent quality we're more than willing to pay it becuase it's that good. The whole market should be like that. Who would argue that Fabiana's items are not worth every penny she charges for them if not more? I'm sure that she can't really pump out that many things a year because of the time she spends on them. She and those like her deserve to get what they can for the work they do.

or when you see ppl (and I kid you not) stating they chose a new poser set rather than the drugs they need to keep them alive that month..pardon? your kidding right?

Quote - For me there is the barrier of 10$. If something is priced higher I make a conscious decision to purchase, if the price is lower I drop in in my cart if I like it

At DAZ I now wait until I actually want to use/need something. I pay a higher price, but in the end I spend a lot less because I did not purchase the things I don't use.

 

You know, this is exactly how it should be. You should have to think long and hard about what you buy since you're gonna have it for a long time ;).

I went back to spending only when I really really want something, not just because it's cheap and I might use it.

Laurie

I guess that woke everyone up. Our whole state is going bankrump, Poor Detroit is in a no win situtation.

My husband and I are retried and that is a whole different place.

I use to sell my paintings get ito art shows, etc. Very hard work. Did a lot of Wildlife art. After my Daughter died, I quit doing hands on art. My Husband bought me the computer hoping I world get into some grajfics and long story Shor I found Poser.

I don't mind paying the money when products are qualitly, and it's I that had to put a cap on my buying.

I know a lot of people who are in bad money situations. I forget how lucky I'm that my Children have nice Families and medical Inssurance. I guess I was too hard on the artist and Model makers. I hope everyone does great this year and sells lots of nice things.

Sorry I don't want to step in anyones dinner plate.

Hugs to all

Quote - > Quote - For me there is the barrier of 10$. If something is priced higher I make a conscious decision to purchase, if the price is lower I drop in in my cart if I like it

At DAZ I now wait until I actually want to use/need something. I pay a higher price, but in the end I spend a lot less because I did not purchase the things I don't use.

 

You know, this is exactly how it should be. You should have to think long and hard about what you buy since you're gonna have it for a long time ;).

I went back to spending only when I really really want something, not just because it's cheap and I might use it.

Laurie

I never buy things because they are cheap, I buy things I like them. The 10$ criterium for me is whether I have an immediate plan to use it or not. 

It is funny that I discover things in my runtime which I purchased a long time ago and suddenly have a use for. Most of these things come from small purchases like a particular jewel or a 4 poster bed. Or when I want to fill a kitchen with all kinds of mundane things to make it look someone is actually using it.

So there is a place for relatively simple and cheap items.

Oh, I was just getting into this hobby in 2001, and remember the old Daz Store.  You could spend $50 on a figure that wasn't that great and even animals were that high.  Poser itself was $600 and I had to wait until I could get a special price to be able to afford to buy it.  I agree, when I hear people complain too much about about prices of models and software I'm grateful things are more affordable now.  I can pick up some really fun stuff here for only $10.00--cute chartoon characters that would have sold for $50 bucks back in the day (and weren't as nice looking either).  I do really understand people's concerns about rising prices.  I hate to say it, but I spend more money on clothes for my 3D models than I do one clothing for myself and I could have a shirt or a pair of jeans for the price of some the poser clothes I've bought.  LOL, good thing I don't need clothing too often.  I wouldn't say that things are under priced now, it's just that the market has changed.  In 2001 most of the people getting into 3D art and animation were graphic designers and professionals--when prices are aimed at a professional market they are always higher (think Turbo Squid)--but the Poser market is primarily hobbiest now and hobbiest can't afford to pay $500 for a 3D model--there are also more content creators out there as well.

So, are you saying that because Poser is mainly a hobby that vendors should somehow devalue their work and time? Cause that's the general feeling I get from most ppl who don't make content. It irks me...lol.

I give my stuff away because at this point in my life I couldn't be bothered to do all required to sell it...lol. However, if I DID sell it, I would expect to get a decent price for it or I'd quit selling ;). Just because the content was made for something that's a hobby doesn't mean it takes less time or has less value.

Speaking of hobbies....ya'll should walk into a dollhouse or model train shop some time. You'd be passing out all over at the prices ;).

Like I said before - spoiled. Well, all are spoiled but the vendors ;)

Laurie

I'm not saying that since the hobby market has expanded that vendors should give their stuff away.  What I was saying was that it is a different market demographic, and that usually software and content geared to professionals is much more costly (like Photoshop and Vue Infinite for instance).  If I created content that few people could afford to buy it wouldn't matter how much time and effort I put into it--there would be minimal return.  Whereas if a vendor creates something an average person could afford they would ultimately make more money through sales volume.  I dread to think how much money I've spent on content over the years--I value good content and good work and am willing to pay for it if I really want it.  If someone can get $500 for a new figure--more power to them--all I know is that I wouldn't be able to buy it and I think many other people on here wouldn't either.  There is a feeling I've gotten from some folk who believe that if something is given away it isn't worth having  and isn't good--I don't believe that one minute.  When Daz bought Carrara and lowered the price people complained because the price got cheaper and to them it meant it wasn't going to be any good anymore.  Bull.  Carrara is better than ever.

I can't tell you how many hours I have put into images that were published in  a calander, magazines and a comic book and I got absolutely zero money for it.  I did it because I loved doing it and wanted my artwork to get exposure.  All I know is I couldn't make a living from it--and it doesn't mean my work was crap either.

Well, you're argument still doesn't hold water tho. Even at its most expensive, Poser content was never even close to the cost of professional content. Not even close.

As for volume sales, the only brokerages that come close to bringing even a moderate return in volume are Daz. Period. Maybe RDNA if you're lucky enough to make the cut (same with Daz also). Here, products get buried in a day, maybe two. Anywhere else it's not even worth your while to put your stuff up there. Between what the brokerage charges and the few items you may sell, you may as well hang it up.

Laurie

Its a marketplace, driven by consumer demand.  A vendor needs to sell x of an item at price y to make a return. If he sets the price low he has to sell more of that item.  The question then becomes how many can he sell in say 30 days.

Poser stuff has been very inexpensive for a long time with a few vendors able to attract better prices.  As a digital product at least there is little overhead with making copies for sale, just the disk space to hold the source file.

Well, I can see I'm preaching to the choir. Done ;).

Laurie

If content creators charged even half of what their skills are actually valued at, virtually no one in the poser community would be able to afford to buy their content. 

The average starting salary (in the US) for 3D artists is around 45K. 30K is low end, 60K is high end. For freelance work, $25 to $50 per hour is usually considered pretty fair, with $25 often jokingly referred to as practically working for free.

There's actually a lot more work that goes into creating content for poser than there is creating content for a game or film studio, which means theoretically speaking, poser content artists should be making even more than what a 3D modeller (or texture artist, or enviornment artist), at a game studio would be making, because the game studio modeler doesn't have to deal with all the extra bs that goes into creating content for Poser. They're doing the work of 3 to 4 artists in a studio, and getting paid practically pennies, if that, of what those 3 or 4 studio artists are getting paid, each. 

My philosophy is that content creators who really are good at what they do should reach a point where they start looking beyond the scope of the poser community to market their work, if their intention is to actually make 3D content their means of living. Most people can't expect to make a full time living off of creating poser content, even when their work is top notch professional. There is a large market for freelance 3D artists, and it grows every day. Poser can serve as a good starting point for freelance artists, but to expect it to be the sole bread winner is pretty delusional. There is a point you reach where your models are worth far more than you can sell them for, but you'll never get their true value selling to a hobbiest community. 

Quote - Poser can serve as a good starting point for freelance artists, but to expect it to be the sole bread winner is pretty delusional. There is a point you reach where your models are worth far more than you can sell them for, but you'll never get their true value selling to a hobbiest community.

Well said.  

I have a rolling renewal for Daz3D PC membership, and now I'm seriously considering dropping that.  Almost all the content released these days is for their Genesis figure and for use inside DS, which isn't my weapon of choice, in a manner of speaking.

I don't mind paying the price equivalent to two decent hamburgers for one well-created digital content product for Poser use, as far as my being a total hobbyist is concerned.  (But I won't skip a meal just to buy Poser content !).  Then again, I tend to agree with the observation that lower quality has crept into several Poser content marketplaces, along with lower prices. 

Professional-use 3D content (typically for use in 3DSMax, for example) sells for a much higher price, and there is no way I need or care to spend that kind of money.  I'm simply not in the market for that sort of product.

I think DAZ is now catering to a new consumer population.

Some of the new Genesis clothes look phenomenol... but the majority of the rest is just stuff sold for gen4 folks now rigged for Genesis. All us oldtimers would complain about that... but no one seems to be... so I am guessing they are catering to a brand new customer who downloaded the suite for free.

Meanwhile, gotta say - DAZ has some of the best scene creators cranking the absolute best stuff I've ever seen... Shout out to Stonemason and Merlin

The best thing ever for all venders is WW and X-Dresser.

Also the best bang for your buck is still PoserWorld.

    IMO.  

Quote - Meanwhile, gotta say - DAZ has some of the best scene creators cranking the absolute best stuff I've ever seen... Shout out to Stonemason and Merlin

I second that, and will pay the price for their work and still think I have a bargain.  On the other hand I stopped my membership of the Daz PC club because I found the quality of the products were not what I wanted.  Did I expect a lot for $1.99 - no but I did need to find a use for the product before I purchased it.  I promptly joined Prime and buy many of the products.  At $3.50 I sorta feel sorry for the vendor as there is no way this refelcts the work, effort or skill put into the product.  Would I pay more, yes, but on the other hand I am not going to spent £400 on a TV (sorry UK based) that is adverstied for $325 just because I feel the maker deserved more.  

In my veiw the problem is not that the products at Daz are too expensive it is that they have sold them so low for so long it will not be easy to change.  They also picked the worse time in a good few years to try and do it.  I also doubt if they can do it alone as many, like me, will just move their spending elsewhere.  I spend far at Rendo and RNDA these days and I am also trying to learn how to model for myself.

The price does not refelct the work put in by vendors and in the long run this may be bad for the hobby but I doubt it is going to change any time soon.