In response to a number of questions raised by PaganEagle and others, I'm going to let everyone know herewith how things work here in the Forums, and my own plan for action in the future.

Technically, I personally, can manipulate the forum anyway I please. I can delete individual posts, lock threads, unlock threads, move them, etc. I can also issue 3-day, 7-day and complete bans.

That said, everyone ought to think that it would be a very easy process to control what goes on here. Well, it would be if I had no inclination to be at all fair or to respect the right of members to express themselves. The problem is, while I have the power to unilaterally do anything I please here, I don't think a dictatorship is what most of you want. I have my own opinions on many issues, and it would be very easy for me to shape the forum to my personal vision of the world. Dear God! Now THERE is a scary vision! 

So, I do my best to let discussions develop as they will. I wait until someone posts an unpopular viewpoint and someone else jumps on it and the firefights over issues that have already been argued endlessly corrupt the ongoing discussion. 

Oh, did I mention there is exactly ONE of me? I'm 64 years old and need to sleep in rare instances. By the time I wake up, a discussion can be so far off track that to delete individual posts becomes pointless. THAT is when things get locked and removed.

Upon reflection, perhaps I need to change the way I'm doing this.

I CAN go in and remove inflamatory posts, along with the responses, and edit the thread back into a functional form. Yes, I certainly can. Is that what you all want? I can pretty well guarantee that a number of people here are going to get tired of getting messages from me that I have deleted THEIR messages. And I guarantee that I'll get a note back from each and every one that I was grossly unfair in doing so. This will be after I have pointed out why I did what I did. In the end, if we go this way, everyone is going to have to suck it up and abide by what I say.

If that suits everyone, I'm more than happy to play it that way. Renderosity hired me to come in and make this a more welcoming place. Um, not sure I've succeeded going the way I have been. I need to do something different, just not sure what.

I can guarantee one thing though: The current hot buttom issue is "Daz is evil", "Genesis is evil" etc. I'm not moderating any of that crap any further. I'm putting the camps on both sides of that issue on notice that IF we go this way, any and all posts that I see as leading to a (yet another) flame war are going to be removed as soon as I find them, along with any posts generated in response. I'm not listening to another word on an issue that we have no power to resolve here at Renderosity.

The trolling and baiting on both sides has gone far enough. Either you people can stop making these posts, or I'm about to start earning my money. It's your choice.

Intelligent discussion is welcome. Smart comments about me personally are not going to be tollerated. If you don't like me personally, I'm sorry about that. I'm not here to please everyone. I'm here to try and get some of this childish behavior under control.

I think you have been doing a fine job, BW. 

However, I was surprised to see the non-DAZ figure thread diasppear; I'd rather see such an extensive thread simply locked down so that the information survives, but I missed the final meltdown, so perhaps making it suitable for posterity wasn't a good use of your time.

Thanx for all that you do. 

WandW...

Thanks for the kind words. I'm thinking of going through that thread and removing all the crap and reposting it. Would you like to see that happen?

I think that would be valuable, if you have time... 

Hi basic,

Your OP ....... (very) Well stated.

cheers,
dr (bob) geep
;=]

Thanks for the kind words. I'm thinking of going through that thread and removing all the crap and reposting it. Would you like to see that happen?

Please do, there is some interesting stuff in there!!!

All the best.

LROG

Quote - WandW...

Thanks for the kind words. I'm thinking of going through that thread and removing all the crap and reposting it. Would you like to see that happen?

YES, please (repost sans the "garbage")................ I missed the whole dang thing but it sounds like it had (has) some very interesting ideas.  It would be a shame if they were lost to the proverbial "bit bucket."

Just my $.02.

cheers,
dr(bob) geep
;=]

I moderate two forums that used to have extremely high amounts of traffic and hundreds of posts an hour, so I understand what it's like to moderate and the hate you can receive from just doing your job. Sometimes it's just not possible to be unbias in moderating, don't sweat the decisions since at least with forums, they can be undone and at least here most people are level headed.

You're doing a fine job, it's appreciated.

I would just like to say... yes please to pruning the tree, rather than felling it... where that is feasible.... and where you might deem it worthwhile.

But, of course, the logistical and political issues around doing that, instead of just removing an entire thread, are entirely appreciated too... absolutely.

You'll have my full support regarding any decision you have to make with regard to this issue, relative to any threads if effects, Basicwiz.

Cheers

I agree.  Prune and re-plant.

The thread has been pruned and restored. Enjoy.

I also think you are doing a great job in a difficult situation, Basicwiz. It would be nice to have that thread back because, although I didn't contribute as it was already locked by the time I saw it, I did read it all and there was some good info in it.

It is a great shame that some people are using the removal of threads to work to their advantage. It would be good to find some solution to this but I'm not sure what that solution would be except to remove the trolling posts.

Anyway, keep up the good work.

Thanks again to all for the kind words. As Lmckenzie put it, it's like "herding cats" around here.

Yes, the days of getting threads locked via trolling are over. I'm very ready to do the message deletions and the offenders can just be mad about it. It's time to give this place back to the people who are here for information, not other agendas.

I appreciate all support I get.

Quote - Thanks again to all for the kind words. As Lmckenzie put it, it's like "herding cats" around here.

Yes, the days of getting threads locked via trolling are over. I'm very ready to do the message deletions and the offenders can just be mad about it. It's time to give this place back to the people who are here for information, not other agendas.

I appreciate all support I get.

Like. I also mod two other places as well. If you have to put people on post approval because of constant issues, its much easier on you to ban them than constantly have to baby sit them.

Some people simply have no web (or real life) edicate at all, and will never learn. And those problem children will take up 90% of you time.

Its best to just remove the troublemakers completely. Give em the "3 strikes yer out" treatment. Three strikes within a 3 month period and they are just gone permanantly. 

Quote - The thread has been pruned and restored. Enjoy.

And the original post is ..... where?

Quote - > Quote - The thread has been pruned and restored. Enjoy.

And the original post is ..... where?

Here:

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2851038

Thanks basic ... keep up the good work and don't let the gremlins get to you.

cheers,
dr geep
;=]

Quote -
Like. I also mod two other places as well. If you have to put people on post approval because of constant issues, its much easier on you to ban them than constantly have to baby sit them.

Some people simply have no web (or real life) edicate at all, and will never learn. And those problem children will take up 90% of you time.

Its best to just remove the troublemakers completely. Give em the "3 strikes yer out" treatment. Three strikes within a 3 month period and they are just gone permanantly. 

Our software doesn't allow for that, although it would make life a lot easier if it did.

And yes, I'm going to do whatever it takes to end the disruptions. This has gone on unchecked long enough.

A personal comment about basicwiz from me...

You're doing a difficult job a damn sight better than most people could.  Having been a Coord and a Mod, I know what's involved and the grief you can get from some members when things don't go their way.

In many ways, you're a lot more accommodating than I ever was and I have to applaud you for your patience and tolerance.

Thanks, Sam. I'm trying.

'Hearding Cats' is a perfect analogy.   Basic... you deserve a medal.  (and probably a very large drink)  :)

Quote - 'Hearding Cats' is a perfect analogy.   Basic... you deserve a medal.  (and probably a very large drink)  :)

Thanks, K. I appreciate it.

As to that drink... meet you in the staff lounge after work! :)

As to the "Herding Cats" idea... I'm reminded of a mother cat who blessed our house with a litter of four Toms a few years ago. She was a young Mom (about 20 months herself) but she turned out to be a great mother.

When the kittens were about 5 weeks old, all of a sudden they found they could walk and began to toddle all around the room. I remember opening the door to see Tringa with one in her mouth and a paw on top of another one! She dropped the youngster in her mouth, looked up at me and let go with a long "Meoooooooooooooooow." She was obviously asking for help!

Point: If a mama cat can't do it...

Quote - And yes, I'm going to do whatever it takes to end the disruptions. This has gone on unchecked long enough.

That's good to hear! Thanks for your efforts - much appreciated.

Basicwiz,

Thanks.  For both the action you have taken and the explaination as to why it is going the way it is.

I like the "3 strikes & you get a red card" myself.

I'll bring the scotch.  :)

You do good work. Carry on it is much appreciated :)

ditto

Thanks guys. You are two of the people whose respect means a lot to me.

basicwiz, I supported you before and I do so now again.  My only concern with a set-in-stone three-strikes-rule is if strike one or two is so nasty, racist, sexist, or any kind of -ist that it, and the poster, obviously has to go and them saying "what about my other srtike?" and otherwise good people having to say "the post must go, but the rule is . . . "

If a troll wanders out of the hills and just poops on your property, you might want to scare it off or you might want to hunt it down before it can do worse, but if the first sign you have of it existing are the screams of your baby, you better kill the thing and not give it two more chances to attack the farm.

Perhaps a bad analogy, but this aint baseball, it is a community.

basicwiz - Many thanks  for all your efforts in the past and particularly taking the trouble to edit and reposting the recent thread.  I did not add to it at the time as, by the time I found it, it was clear where it was going.  So far the new thread seems to be staying on track and I have added my views.

[Quote]  "I can guarantee one thing though: The current hot buttom issue is "Daz is evil", "Genesis is evil" etc. I'm not moderating any of that crap any further. I'm putting the camps on both sides of that issue on notice that IF we go this way, any and all posts that I see as leading to a (yet another) flame war are going to be removed as soon as I find them, along with any posts generated in response. I'm not listening to another word on an issue that we have no power to resolve here at Renderosity. [Quote]

I can understand your difficulty and support your aim to be fair, there should be no place for flame wars and I do not think they do the community any good but accept that they are a fact of life.  That said I think some post are so off topic it is clear that a flame war my be the result.  Easy for me to say but I don't have to delete them and explain why so I support you in your aims and in particular the phrase "seen as leading to".

Thanks again.

I think your doing a fine job.

Regarding the question....Over in the "Other sites" forums (back in the day when there were "Other site" forums, LOL), the deleting of posts was quite the norm, and it got many people very, very, very angry, as they felt that their posts were proper responses to others.  Poor Richard has taken quite the beating over the years, I have seen...but he does a good job as well, IMO.

You can take that approach, but it seems much more work intensive for you. 

Another option is to be a little less "allowing" on the troubled threads, and lockdown sooner. Everyone will start to realize it's not worth it...and no loss of data.

Problem there is the OP loses the info they were originally after, but PM's could work for any final follow-ups.

Anyway, just another idea!  

BTW, is there a forum that is Daz/Poser freindly for those of us that use both, or is a Daz/Poser forum an oxymoron that is bound to rend the fabric of the universe, LOL!  :tongue1:

Keep up the good work!

Thanks for the kind words.

There is a Poser Forum.

There is a Daz Forum.

That's what we have to offer.

thanks for weeding out the thread, basic.  users like me are impressed by zygote/daz's success as a poser figure creator, and it's admirable that vendors are hoping to emulate their success in supplying new poser figures.

Quote - There is a Poser Forum. There is a Daz Forum.

That's what we have to offer.

Not stirring the pot, BW, just saying.

There is no Compare and Contrast forum, so the only "legitimate" way to get a comparison is to post the same question in both and filter the responses.  Which can, of course, be done, but since so many people use (or have used) both, it becomes a matter of familiarity to post once in the forum visited most often.  The nature of the responses, though, tend to be the problem, since most threads start with what seem to be neutral questions that then get anything but as responses.

As for OT threads in general, there is also no Community forum where non-program specific, yet CG art-related topics can be discussed in general.  Example: What would be a good way to make floating islands for use in Poser?  Poser-only people such as myself would have answers, but so too would people using something else that can then be imported into Poser for rendering.  As it is, "Poser posts only, please," on the face of it, would prevent someone suggesting another program for importing later.  Whether there was a heated debate over Bryce v Vue (or w/e) is where the current trouble starts.

I regularly hang out in several forum groups. The Poser forum, Guitarist forums and Video Game forums. It always amazes me how quickly some Poser posts become battle grounds. What is it about the Poser community that makes it that way? I would expect more immaturity from the Video game forums, and although they have their insulting posts, the ones I've read over the Poser debate are by far worse.

Is it because artists are passionate people? Are there just a few bad apples causing the trouble? Perhaps, but where do you draw the line?

Never the less, this really is a great community, and I hope it can continue to grow.

Quote - Thanks for the kind words.

There is a Poser Forum.

There is a Daz Forum.

That's what we have to offer.

Whoops, my bad.  Didn't mean to offend.  @Gremalkyn stated it better than me.  Feel free to delete my post.

I would have no problem at all in a compare and contrast thread, or any other thread about Daz Studio/Poser and Genesis AS LONG AS everyone conducted themselves as ladies and gentlemen and kept their tempers in check. It is not the discussions I object to... it is the posturing on both sides that leads to antagonism that puts grief in my mailbox here.

If you want to open such a thread, do so. I'm going to post a very stern warning there that everyone BETTER keep it pleasant, or someone's going to get grief over it. Oh yes. You have to help me moderate it.

Interested?

Quote - > Quote - Thanks for the kind words.

There is a Poser Forum.

There is a Daz Forum.

That's what we have to offer.

Whoops, my bad.  Didn't mean to offend.  @Gremalkyn stated it better than me.  Feel free to delete my post.

Nothing for you to appologize for. I'm sorry if my response came across as short. I have a lot on my plate just now. You're fine.

Quote - > Quote - There is a Poser Forum. There is a Daz Forum.

That's what we have to offer.

Not stirring the pot, BW, just saying.

There is no Compare and Contrast forum, so the only "legitimate" way to get a comparison is to post the same question in both and filter the responses.  Which can, of course, be done, but since so many people use (or have used) both, it becomes a matter of familiarity to post once in the forum visited most often.  The nature of the responses, though, tend to be the problem, since most threads start with what seem to be neutral questions that then get anything but as responses.

As for OT threads in general, there is also no Community forum where non-program specific, yet CG art-related topics can be discussed in general.  Example: What would be a good way to make floating islands for use in Poser?  Poser-only people such as myself would have answers, but so too would people using something else that can then be imported into Poser for rendering.  As it is, "Poser posts only, please," on the face of it, would prevent someone suggesting another program for importing later.  Whether there was a heated debate over Bryce v Vue (or w/e) is where the current trouble starts.

I don't think comparisons are the problem and although I don't use Daz I am interested in what it can do.  The real problem, in my view, is that in certain threads, the comparisons are in-appropriate.  By this I mean, if the original poster has requested a Poser solution it is not really very freindly to give a Daz solution any more than a post requesting a Daz solution should be presented with a Poser solution. 

I think most of us welcome informed debate and interesting input so mentioning other software is not the issue, it is where and how it is done that upsets people.

Quote - I would have no problem at all in a compare and contrast thread, or any other thread about Daz Studio/Poser and Genesis AS LONG AS everyone conducted themselves as ladies and gentlemen and kept their tempers in check. It is not the discussions I object to... it is the posturing on both sides that leads to antagonism that puts grief in my mailbox here.

Yes, Papa.  :)

Quote - If you want to open such a thread, do so.

I have been thinking of doing this, but . . .

Quote - I'm going to post a very stern warning there that everyone BETTER keep it pleasant, or someone's going to get grief over it.

. . . makes me wonder if I had just rather not bother.  My opening questions would be neutral Compare and Contrast, but I would feel bad about "building a new sand box" just to have other kids throw rocks in it.

Quote - Oh yes. **You have to help me moderate it.**Interested?

< Gemini.

Good Twin:  Well, both do have good points, but they could have said so a little better.

Evil Twin:  Shut it!  That aint the sort of stull that belongs here!  What are you, five?

Quote - . . . makes me wonder if I had just rather not bother.  My opening questions would be neutral Compare and Contrast, but I would feel bad about "building a new sand box" just to have other kids throw rocks in it.

Welcome to **MY **world.

Quote - I don't think comparisons are the problem and although I don't use Daz I am interested in what it can do.  The real problem, in my view, is that in certain threads, the comparisons are in-appropriate.  By this I mean, if the original poster has requested a Poser solution it is not really very freindly to give a Daz solution any more than a post requesting a Daz solution should be presented with a Poser solution.  I think most of us welcome informed debate and interesting input so mentioning other software is not the issue, it is where and how it is done that upsets people.

Getting back to the three strikes rule (is that in this thread?), this ^ would define the strike zone, with BW and company as the umpire, but I would rather not pitch at all if the box is variable and the calls are therefore inconsistant.  If I threw a bum pitch (a bad opening post), call me on it.  If, however, it was even just a Poser-only that was fouled by another, call them on it and leave my post alone.  If I somehow beaned the batter, well, . . .

I so dislike sports, and here I go . . .

Quote - > Quote - . . . makes me wonder if I had just rather not bother.  My opening questions would be neutral Compare and Contrast, but I would feel bad about "building a new sand box" just to have other kids throw rocks in it.

Welcome to **MY **world.

Sandbox EULA:  Play at your own risk.  No rocks, lighters, or sticks allowed.  Attendant does not have any candy, sammiches, or a first aid kit, just a large mallet.

ROFL. We need to incorporate that in the first post!

I'll add my vote for your good work basicwiz.

Gremalkyn's idea of a compare and contrast thread sounds good to me and i would be interested in participating in it, in a positive and constructive way.

Personally I would prefer not to have a set 3 strike rule or whatever. I would not like to see someone goaded into crossing the line 3 times and then kicked out, whoever it was.

Quote - ROFL. We need to incorporate that in the first post!

Will scamper off on an up beat.  Play nice, or Mr. basicwiz will reach for his mallet.

If Mr. basicwiz has a large mullet, I aint gonna play. :p

It would take a person getting three written warnings before action was taken. That is the policy at Rendo. To get a written warning, you have to ignore staff directives several times.

Getting three strikes is pretty hard unless you really are working at being disruptive.

Quote -
If Mr. basicwiz has a large mullet, I aint gonna play. :p

Gimme a BREAK! I never wore a mullet when mullets were supposed to be cool! Sheeeeeez!

I will puzzle out a draft C&C post and send it to BW for review and refinement, since I am so ignorant of what I want to C&C that I probably will use the wrong terms for processes, components, etc.  Once I just look ignorant and not incredibly stoopid, I will start the thread.

Basicwiz, you are very tolerant and I take my hat off to you. Thank you for preserving the information in the non-daz figure thread. Apart from the bickering, the thread made me think about  what appeals to me as opposed to the general public, and it would be valuable to any vendor or content creator. And I hope the powers that be at Smith Micro read it.

Thanks for the update basicwiz and for restoring the thread. No system is going to be perfect and I realize that this will entail more work on your part. I hope that it will work. It seems like the best course to me and you definitely have my support. I know that some ou us at least enjoy the rambling, semi-chaotic freedom that has always reigned here. Everyone has their version of revealed truth and is eager to share it. Maybe sometimes not much new gets said and I'm sure everyone has their 'oh, no, not him/her again' moments, but it usually works our pretty well.  It stops working when one or two individuals have the power to stop the conversation for everyone. Maybe its a momentary loss of control or maybe its deliberate, no matter the end result is the same.

I've always appreciated the fact that the moderators here are reasonable and tolerant. Hopefully a bit of tactical prodding and pruning can preserve that atmosphere while cutting back on the bomb throwing. I used to be in favor of the kill lists or ignore button some have asked for. I later realized that even the people who irk me the most sometimes post things I agree with or can learn from.

At any rate, as the song said, "Don't try and understand 'em, just rope throw and brand 'em..." Good luck.  I'll have Vickie send you one of her best whips.