-T.

Not for personal stuff, but I could envision a scenario where it could be useful for illustration at some point, as I do book covers etc. But for my own pleasure, I'm more into realism.

they look good IMVHO.  would request that you provide them with a tutorial on line-art in poser.  I have tried to explain the edge-blend technique, but they don't understand it.  what I dislike is seeing wolf et al. trying to tout c4d (in poser forum) for line-work, when poser can do it better, in the right hands.

There wouldn't be any harm in releasing those figures, even if they don't sell widely. It might do well to create a cartoon girl with sword so the regular Poser user doesn't feel too lost.

Cool feedback. These are just samples. The ones I'm thinking of releasing are a little less stylised and a bit more appealing over all. I appreciate the fact that most folks are more into the semi-realistic and realistic figures than toons here but I really appreciate the input. :D 

The more the merrier, I say. Toon type characters, whatever look, tend to have their own charm and even more so when morphed beyond just the original look, such that users can put their own stamp on them.

AND, they tend to look better than most with postwork.  IMVHO.

I haven't been drawn to toons too much myself, but now that I have young kids I could see myself getting into them.  Some good information on how to use them to good effect would be handy.  Especially for people who have been drawn more towards semi-realism.  I'm not sure what changes from 'the usual' you'd have to embrace in terms of lighting and shaders to get hte most out of them

I like to mix real and toon as well, roger rabbit style, or in a real/toon => fantasy merger (Nursoda style). 3D Universe (www.3duniverse.co.za) = Steve Corder, South Africa, is one of my fav's for toons, and doing quite well on delivering toon chars for Poser (via DAZ as well).

Perhaps you can team up with him, or anything. Toon chars do well in commercials, child book illustrations and game environments. Your stuff looks good.

Yeah, 3D Universe has some cool stuff.  So his is a much more positive response than I would have expected. It's also interesting about additional content that explains good usage or ways of expanding on the toon aspect.  Very cool indeed.

Hello Teyon, goodmorning.

It is my humble opinion that you are talking here as "you the person" and not as SM.

So here is my 1 cent answer.

Yes, any new figure set, (it would be a set, no?) is allways welcome.
There is a market for them, not that huge, but they will sell well.

But there is a deeper issue here.
Poser content has a very long life span.

Even the PP2012 content starts with the Poser 1 figures, and includes all figures from Poser 1 till. . . . now.

Over all those 10+ years, lots of corrections and improvements have been asked for to "repair" the flaws in those figures.

Improving and repairing the current content figures would be a "game Changer" to use somebody elses words. 

But, yes, any new fgure set will be welcome.
And I know that you are a great artist.

And, as you know; Personally, I try to do "more" with less :-) "More realism that is.

Have a nice day, Tony

I have no problem using toon characters in my renders.

I mainly use AikoToon & HiroToon, but have used other 'Toons.

I think that there are two main reasons why some 'Toon Characters don't sell well.

1/ Lack of support - my runtime is filled with figures I have bought but hardly used because other than clothes released within the 1st month, there has been nothing else released for that figure, limiting that figures use.

2/ Nothing else available in a similar style. You could release the greatest 'toon figure ever, but if it stands out like a sore thumb in a scene with other figures then it's use is going to be limited.

Reason 2 is why most of my 'toon renders use AikoToon & HiroToon - I can use them side by side with other DAZ characters & they don't look out of place.

Saying that - if you were to convert that sourcerer & demon to Poser, I would buy them.

I'm totally talking as me and not a SM employee. This is more something I've been kicking around.   I agree that it's essential there be more characters of a similar style or it all false apart. I'll have to look into all this more. It's not something I'm going to be able to get to right away. Just putting out feelers.

Well, that is the main problem of any new figure or figure set. Support.

Lots of new figures lately, but no or little support.
As AILDemps says, the first month or so, and then they slowly die out and everybody returns to V4/M4.
After all, you are going to fight against a figure with 4.000 support items.

YES, it is a new market, Toons.
But oh dear Lord, you will have to be persistent to get a long life span here.

Or? You would have to create a complete Toon family, and support them all untill the vendors see the market grow, and start to pick up on it.

Creating a Toon family, OK, but then Toon props also.
Toon houses, landscapes, trees, forests. . the lot.
All would have to be Tooned in the same style.
A BIG project.

I don't use them, but a lot of folks do.

For me it's mainly a question of being able to use a toon character in numerous different genres/settings. Most toon characters have limited usage.

I reckon if they were good enough... I'd be more tempted to get them and do some toon renders...

...and I reckon yours look great Teyon.

But as Vilters notes, stylistic consistency becomes more of a problem potentially...

(unrelated image really... americanised anime source, as opposed to toon... but this example of stylistic rupture, witnessed when I was a kid, always stands out in my mind)

...the whole toon universe needs to match up somehow... there needs to be a range of figures... but also environments potentially... unless you can design them to work with (e.g.) Stonemason or Dreamland Models sets. Of course there's no reason you couldn't do that, somehow.

That said, I've heard folk say they'd never combine the Daz Gen4 figures with Miki or Antonia, because there is stylistic difference and they won't gel.

Personally, I don't see that... and I've done a few renders with a real mix of all the above in them... and I thought those worked out fine.

There's the issue of trying to personalise much more stylized toon figures too I guess, if that's a concern... you'd have to think through how that would work?

I'm a big fan of AlDemps toon work myself... I reckon he get's the meshing of toon and potentially more "realist" elements down very well.

Plus he does a lot of Doctor Who stuff...

I had considered the issue of additional props. It's something else that I'm trying to figure out how best to approach. The Incredibles had an entire toon world populated with realistic every day items that were not any more or less stylized than what we're commonly used to seeing in Poser. So with something like that as a goal, I think it's more about the figures and less about the props. That said, to expand on the characters down the road I could see more specific toon settings pop up but initially, I think if I were to create a set of figures with a cohesive look, you could probably get away with placing them in some of the sets already available for Poser.

So I would definitely want to be creating a series of characters that could fit within the same world style wise. I'd also like to think that some if not all of them would be fairly versatile - they'd be provided like a classic figure (nude with clothing options).  That would both provide them the possiblity of being expanded on and allow them to be used for more than one thing.

Also, thanks everyone for the confidence boost for both the idea and my skill. :D 

Yup... I was thinking of "Despicable Me" as another example of fairly realist style environments / props, being used with toons.

The characters in that are heavily caricaturesque, but the sets, whilst often being fantastical, are relatively realist, or hyper-realist... as far as I recall.

I'd say if I was going to attempt any kind of more in depth animation in Poser, I'd probably be considering animating toon style stuff, initially...

...so for me at least, if I was going to procure some toon figures, it'd be for that, I guess.

I agree, Dispicable Me is another reference point for me, as is Monster House and even UP to some extent.

Me and my shadow from Dreamworks looks like another that may fall into that same thing, where the environment, if it had realistic characters, would not be out of place but the toon characters make it all feel more toonish.

I think the likes of "Despicable Me" nod back to an older tradition by the way.

Thinking back to classic cell animations, like Tom and Jerry, for example... the backdrops tended to be painted, often, sometimes, in a fairly realist style... I'd say... certainly quite a different style to the character animations. But stylistically, I think, it does somehow still gel.

Obviously an entirely different set of artists tended to work on the background / environment paintings... to those who did the character animation and cell overlays.

Quote - I think the likes of "Despicable Me" nod back to an older tradition by the way.

Thinking back to classic cell animations, like Tom and Jerry, for example... the backdrops tend to be painted, often, sometimes, almost a fairly realist style... I'd say... certainly quite a different style to the character animations. But stylistically, I think, it does somehow still gel.

Obviously an entirely different set of artists tended to work on the background / environment paintings... to those who did the character animation and cell overlays.

You're right on all counts there. The Warner cartoons also had fairly realistic backdrops for a time and simply let the characters play in that realistic world. I think it all falls on the characters and the people lighting the scene to make it work in 3D.  If the characters look like they can almost be in the same universe, you're ahead of the game. The reason I reference the Incredibles the most is, if you look at the bulk of the main characters: Bob, Helen, Dash, Bob's boss, Frozone, etc. , taken individually, you'd be hard pressed to see them in the same film. Edna is so far removed from Helen and Bob that she pretty much doesn't belong in the same world but they make it work and make you believe.  With Dispicable me, the outsiders stylistically were the minions and yet they too, seemed to happily co-exist along side the human characters. It's an interesting thing and something I'm being super aware of as I sculpt out my designs. Keeping a unified look as much as I can but if there's a character that stands apart, finding something about it to tie it back to the others.

It occurs to me that noticing difference is one of the things our brains seem to do best.

Well, speaking for my own brain anyway... other people's brains may vary

Seeing certain discrepancies seems to interfere irreparably with the all important ability to suspend disbelief (when looking at any image, whether it's tooned, realist or even a photograph).

But not seeing any discrepancies, indeed not seeing some quite large differences, in places, can have the exact same effect!

Heloo Tyon, finally found what I was looking for. :-)

Check here: The Thunderbirds; long time ago.
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho6VoLgXsN4

Something](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho6VoLgXsN4) very special at the time. 

When you make Toon figures, what is the ultimate goal?

Science fiction?
Mexian?
Cowboy style?
Pirates of the..... ?

As in the series at the link, the environment has to be created too.

I admire your skills but would first set a time frame or a goal where to operate in.

Define your market.
Or define where and how these figures can be used.

I think you have a great thing going on here, if you can get the momentum going.

Your first examples have "character".

The making off, in the old days.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dPD_CO8rvQ&feature=related

Oh! Dear !
:-)

Hi I will certainly concede that it is pointless to mention a $3000 dollar program in the poser Forum just for its tooning ability

but the underlined portion of your statement might confuse people new to poser without proper clarification IMHO

poser alone cannot create better toon effects than C4D with the native poser render engine
but it is not fair to expect such as poser does not cost $3000 USD.

but I have seen Extremely talented poser artists using major post work techniques in external 2d programs,  to create toon/comic effects that one can Not achieve with C4D only

Back on topic: @ teyon the talented  people over at 3D Universe have proven that there is some commercial viability in toon characters but they have to be of the highest quality!!.

And yes I agree the "Despicable me" is one of the best 3dtoon movies in recent years IMHO better than Pixar even.

Cheers

so it is a matter of exploring the many options available for us today.

Cheers

I personally will not buy toon characters because I neither like them nor have a use for them.

But I ain't everybody.

I'd say, if you want to create the set, do so! There is never enough Poser content!

ROFLMAO!

Yup. I use toon style characters all the time. Mainly A3 and H3 toons, Littlefox and Nursoda characters. More are always welcome. And if there is XD support then even better!

Not too much like Dreamworks/Pixar style though or there can be potential problems with commercial work unfortunately.

I like toon figures and I've bought several.  I just never seem to use 'em though.  Maybe one day I'll find a use for them.

Quote - Yup. I use toon style characters all the time. Mainly A3 and H3 toons, Littlefox and Nursoda characters. More are always welcome. And if there is XD support then even better!

Not too much like Dreamworks/Pixar style though or there can be potential problems with commercial work unfortunately.

 

When I say, "style", I mean that the characters would look like they fit right at home in a film by either of those companies. I would never knowingly ape or copy another artist's work and I sure as heck would avoid likenesses of existing characters. That's not what a character artist does. We're all about designing our own stuff but keeping within a style or look and doing our own thing is still possible.

Quote - I like toon figures and I've bought several.  I just never seem to use 'em though.  Maybe one day I'll find a use for them.

That's been my concern with the idea from jump and I hope that having more than one or two characters will make the desire/ability to come up with scenes for them more likely.

Then I have to start wondering about how technical to make them. I'm no TD. Never would be able to claim that and keep a straight face. I'm a character designer/modeler who has some basic knowledge of how rigging works. So for me, blendshapes would be the preferred method for doing expressions and the like but then I have to wonder if rigging the face directly wouldn't be better? The major problem I see with doing it that way (besides the logistics of setup) is educating an end user on usage. Hmm...yeah, blendshapes will probably be the way I go just for the sake of ease of use/creation.

Well if it's any help, I've liked the look of your avatar since it first appeared.  Very striking; it reminds me of Roger Delgado's version of The Master and also somewhat of  Gary Oldman's Zachary Smith.  With a skin colour change it could also be Sinestro.

Attached Link: Test

http://youtu.be/3W01o4hSBnc

Quote - Well if it's any help, I've liked the look of your avatar since it first appeared.  Very striking; it reminds me of Roger Delgado's version of The Master and also somewhat of  Gary Oldman's Zachary Smith.  With a skin colour change it could also be Sinestro.

It's funny that you say that because I totally channeled the Master (and a little Dr.Strange) when I did the scene my avatar is from.

Writing of mixing seemingly conflicting designs, Xaa has, I believe, successfully gathered a cast of figures you'd normally think would not "blend" well in the same shots.  Some of these include the venerable Posette (whom he has remapped and re-rigged over the course of several years),  FemaSu, and Nursoda characters like the Slon and the lizard-like Fon.  Well, it helps that it is a science fiction narrative, but they can still clash.  I think part of the trick is his tweaking the "skins" so the lighting makes them look like they should be in the same frame.

Sincerely.

Bill

Quote - > Quote - Yup. I use toon style characters all the time. Mainly A3 and H3 toons, Littlefox and Nursoda characters. More are always welcome. And if there is XD support then even better!

Not too much like Dreamworks/Pixar style though or there can be potential problems with commercial work unfortunately.

 

 

When I say, "style", I mean that the characters would look like they fit right at home in a film by either of those companies. I would never knowingly ape or copy another artist's work and I sure as heck would avoid likenesses of existing characters. That's not what a character artist does. We're all about designing our own stuff but keeping within a style or look and doing our own thing is still possible.

Oh yes, I didn't think you meant copying existing characters or something like that - and definitely wasn't implying that you were.

The problem is that for some commercial work even "in the style of " or "inspired by" or sometimes even "a bit like..." can cause unecessary twitchiness in clients' legal departments. :)

I love toons and making my own cartooning style along with many other things.

I have been looking at your avatar wondering if you were ever going to release it because it is a perfect Don Quixote to me! I like your stylized creations!

Toons can make a picture in your head just as much as any other figure.  IMHO you should dip your toes, perhaps even a whole foot, into the toony  water of sales and see how it goes. That is the only way you will ever really find out how your toons will do. There are many people that do not use forums or post in galleries or only do reality renders.

Personally I gravitate towards those modelers that have their own style. Little Fox, 3D Universe, Nursoda, elleque, Smay etc all have their own style. You might want to reconsider what kind of toons you want to really do. Your way, or the way you think people might want them.

Just my 5 cents

Oh, thanks for reminding me, LilWolff.  My favoite mesh is listed as a "toon" by LittleFox herself, "Melody".

Sincerely,

Bill

Quote - ...would you guys use Dreamworks/Pixar style characters if they were developed for Poser?...

The only anime style character I've used regularly is Anime Doll and Near Me.  Since the characters are already modeled in an Anime style they lend themselves to getting a more traditional cel shade look than say starting with V4.

Unfortunately, if not modeled by the same person, the different anime styles can kinda' clash.

Quote - ...So for me, blendshapes would be the preferred method for doing expressions and the like but then I have to wonder if rigging the face directly wouldn't be better? The major problem I see with doing it that way (besides the logistics of setup) is educating an end user on usage. Hmm...yeah, blendshapes will probably be the way I go just for the sake of ease of use/creation.

Rigging the face allows for far more expressions without the overhead of a bazillion morphs. I have set up many of them that way in various programs and prefer them that way.

As far as the end user thing, you could still put all of the standard dials on the head to mimic what people are used to as well. Dependencies will appear normal to the user if they are looking for a smile dial and there is one or more there.

If the end user has the tools to use the face, it really doesn't matter if it is rigged or morphed in the background.

I always like your stuff and liked James but he needed more support.

I know. That was a really tough period for the content team actually and I was really bummed that he had to be kind of put aside. I would have kept the rights to him and released him on my own had I known it would have turned out that way.  The plan with these new toons should hopefully keep interest up for a bit, give other content creators time to develop clothing for them too. 

Quote - I like toon figures and I've bought several.  I just never seem to use 'em though.  Maybe one day I'll find a use for them.

This is me. I have bought quite a few and I always intend to use them, but somehow don't generally get around to it.

those are beautiful teyon

i loved monster house too but i'm a big fan of zemeckis anyway.

Hey Teyon,
yes sir.
Certainly in a small market as this one it is up to the creator to keep the momentum going untill the vendors pick up.

Vendors usually only pick up on a "trend" when they can see the profit.

Create the figures, but also create enough "content" or free support files before releasing them.
Create a buffer zone for yourself so that at release date?
You are ready with lots of things at hand to feed the freestuff, bit by bit, for the first couple of months.

As others said, lots of new figures out there right now, but support stops after a month.

The only figure that was released with "preparation" was Little One.
A very nice looking, but it had its limitations.
But the momentum kept going for a pretty long time, and she had a lovely face.

Actually,
any figure/character creator can keep any figure/character popular.

Release freebies, get the mass end user to use YOUR figure.
And when he/she is popular?
Then you can start making items for the market to earn money.
Not before.

But first: Get your figures/characters so popular, that people "can not live without them". (in a matter of speaking)

Oh, and never-ever talk about a future project.
When people understand that YOU as the creator of the figure are stopping the suppor for YOUR own figure?
All comes to a grinding halt.

The only one surviving "her future project" is V4/M4

Most clients are financially "way over the point of no return" for V4/M4.
He/she will survive.

The one thing you could do, that a lot of figure makers forget, is to add a dev rig kit with the figure.

If you want people to create content, then it would make sense to provide an "official" dev rig.

I can make dev rigs, no probs, but it does save making a new one everytime.

All the best.

LROG