"In my case, it's not to make them look better. It's to make the render faster.

I love firefly. But because the preview is so wildly different from the final render, many test renders are needed before a scene is ready to go. This takes a ridiculous amount of time, and time is money."

Hi May I humbly suggest MODO perhaps?
with its FASTpreview window that functions almost as good as those GPU renderer like Octane
I just recoreded this short screen cast for you to consider FEMASUE

Hardware:  Ancient 2007 Macbook with low end intergrated graphics card 2 GIGS of RAM (YMMV)

Figure: Femasue exported from poser after running collect scene python script to gather textures for MODO
Imported to MODO
GI turned on  for preview
the are NOT render but full GI previews
costs less than C4D broadcast.

Cheers

Quote -

Hi May I humbly suggest MODO perhaps?
with its FASTpreview window that functions almost as good as those GPU renderer like Octane
I just recoreded this short screen cast for you to consider FEMASUE

Hardware:  Ancient 2007 Macbook with low end intergrated graphics card 2 GIGS of RAM (YMMV)

Figure: Femasue exported from poser after running collect scene python script to gather textures for MODO
Imported to MODO
GI turned on  for preview
the are NOT render but full GI previews
costs less than C4D broadcast.

Cheers

That's really quite impressive, though I doubt my graphics card would cope. It's even lower end. But it's an interesting suggestion. I would never have considered MODO.

With all the choices, it becomes overwhelming. The trial/demos for any given software are usually reduced in function, giving a totally wrong impression of capability, and 30 days is hardly enough time to learn the software well enough to know whether it can do what you want it to do (or whether you, the user, can learn to get it to do what you want it to do). Then, after all that, you probably need to upgrade hardware because what's available for testing is going to the latest iteration of the app.

After all this discussion, I'm beginning to think, in the long run, it would be both faster and cheaper to learn to paint. I may simply lack the patience for CGI. :)

"Then, after all that, you probably need to upgrade hardware because what's available for testing is going to the latest iteration of the app."

Very true I am not in a position to buy new hardware or software right now either

which is why all those apps I listed earlier are at least TWO versions behind the latest
But hey they are getting the job done for me  so I am not bothered.

Cheers

I'm sure they're fine. If something works for you, it's foolish to change it until you're forced to.

The issue is being able to get legitimate copies of old software, which of course you can never test beforehand.

So you have to rely on the reports of other users, who of course don't know what you hope to achieve, your skill level, or anything about your workflow. Basically, without buying the stuff yourself, if you can't sit behind someone else using the software and ask a million questions, it's always a bit of a crap shoot.

I think A real time 3D Card would be your best bet.

This idea may be a bit on the insain side but
Get some one make a real time render engine like unreal engine 4 work for Poser.

lmckenzie wrote

"I do love the speed of Carraras renders BUT I think the quality is lacking."

"That's always been my impression as well, but I think a lot of it is down to learning the lighting etc. Dustrider has some very nice Carrara renders."

I just had to respond to say Thanks lmckenzie *(picture me standing in the corner and blushing), and IMVHO, you are spot on about it all coming down to lighting (and mats/shaders).  I'd say my renders are good  for the most part (not great), but there are several other Carrara users who have some fantastic work (see links below).

I also feel compelled respond to jjrolands dissing of Carrara, so now it's flame time! (Not really, I don't want this to degenerate into a my app is better than yours war .... cause I think they are all pretty freekin awsome).  

First I need to put in a bit of a disclaimer before I continue any further - I've been dabbling with 3D for many years, I started with Poser 3, C4D 6, and Carrara 2. But, real life typically gets in the way, and I often go 6-12 months without even starting any 3D software. So, I'm in my own personal version of Ground Hog Day, where I'm constantly relearning what I already learned, because if I don't use it, I do lose it. Therefore, even though I've dabbled for years, I consider myself to be pretty much a newb compared to those who use the software consistantly, say 3-5 times a week, 10-12 months a year. With that in mind, I'll proceed.

 jjroland wrote

"Someone suggested Carrara as an alternative.  IMO that route isn't a great solution either.  I do love the speed of Carraras renders BUT I think the quality is lacking.  I see far more depth and realism in Poser renders and I don't know if that is due to lighting abilities or render quality.  I just know that's what I see.  Now I have the old express version of Carrara but I couldn't bring myself to spend any real money on Daz software when they are so notorious for not supporting their software and massive delays to bug fixes."

I think jjroland's impression of Carrara demonstrates a very valid point, something that anyone who is thinking of moving to a different software to render Poser content should consider. When it comes to 3D software, an application that one person can pick up and quickly/easily understand and get good results from, the next person may find completely un-usable, or not worth the effort.

I sit on the other side of the fence here, I really like Carrara. But....I first started using Carrara 2/3 to render exports from Poser 3/4. When I started with Carrara, I found lighting much more intuitive in Carrara than Poser, Obj import was better in Carrara than C4D (version 6) and I was also looking for an all round 3D application with a great render engine. It came down to a choice between Carrara and C4D - I chose Carrara because the upgrades were much more affordable, and the renderer in C3, though not as good as C4D 7, was simply amazing for the price.

Carrara still renders faster than Poser, has caustics, and can use almost all Poser content (there is even a script from Sparrowhawk to import Poser 9/2012 weight mapped figures). But ..... and this is a big but .... Poser shaders often don't translate well, and complex shader only materials (i.e. no texture map) typically don't translate well at all. So, in complex scenes, everything you gain in render speed may be lost in time spent fixing the shaders. I would guess that with C4D/Interposer and Vue, you will also have some work to do on the materials/shaders as well, but they may do a better job of translation.

Thanks to BB and SG, it's pretty hard to beat the ease of setup for top quality SSS for human figures in Poser. I've seen some great SSS work in Carrara, but there is nothing that can compare to Poser for ease of setup/use of SSS in Carrara at this time. 

Carrara is still my application of choice for rendering Poser content, mainly because it just feels "comfortable". I know what to expect (most of the time), and I'm a self admitted test renderaholic, so the render speed is a plus. You often see complaints in the forums over at DAZ regarding the bugs and stability of Carrara. I've rarely experienced any problems with Carrara on Windows PC's. I have a laptop that did have quite a few crashes until I was able to upgrade the drivers, and change a setting in the drivers (for power conservation) that was causing Carrara, and other applications, to randomly crash. It does seem though that on Mac's Carrara does has quite a few issues. If your not on a Mac, and looking for an companion product or alternative to rendering in Poser, I'd say it's definitely worth a serious look (but I am biased).

@moriador

Being a test renderaholic myself, I understand where you are coming from :)

IMVHO, you should really look at what you want to achieve compared to what Poser has to offer and the cost (in both learning curve/time and money) of moving to another application. Keep in mind that you will have to learn a new lighting system, and new materials/shaders system as well as simply using the new software. Another option if you simply want to speed up your renders might be to invest in a faster computer rather than more software.

The up coming Reality for Poser was mentioned earlier as a possible alternative. For faster renders, I would have to say it probably won't help (the term Glacial Speed comes to mind). For better (as in easier to setup for great lighting and materials), more realistic lighting and render quality, it definitely would be an option. As a user of Reality for DS, I can say if the Poser version is anything like the DS version, material/shader transfer will be very very good. Paolo (the creator) seems to have a genuine desire to create top notch products, and I will no doubt purchase it when it becomes available for Poser. With a high end multicore computer, a top end graphics card, and proper materials and lighting setup, Lux can produce very good results fairly quickly. I've seen some beautiful renders that were done in under 2 hours, but on my system 8-12 hours is the minimum (the lone Lux render in my gallery took 38 hours on a Core2 Duo laptop). One advantage for the test renderaholic is that you get pretty good feedback on lighting and materials before the render is done, in about 5-30 min.

I'm sure there will also be the option of using SLG (SimpleLuxGPU) with the Poser/Reality/Lux combination, just as there is with DS. With a high end graphics card with a lot of graphics RAM, SLG is VERY fast (similar to Octane Render in speed). The only drawback is that your sceen needs to be able to fit into the memory on your graphics card, and a few of the more memory intensive features of the full version of Lux aren't supported. But if you typically do fairly simple scenes, Reality/SLG could be a very usable option to improve render speeds from Poser.

Well, I'll finish up this overly long post with some links to a few Carrara renders which hopefully show that Carrara is capable of renders with great depth, detail, and quality in the proper hands.

Warning - Some links contain nudity!

Mark Bremmer (a Carrara Grand Master)

 The Keeper

restif

Sunrise over the Sunken City, Legs 2

Akulla

Portrait of a Lady

moviehawke1

Eleonora and the Temple of Blood!

elianeck

Twins,  Just

KoldFusion

Adept Lulu a la Ritratto

If you've made it this far, and are still interested, below are a few of my favotites from my galley (of a whole 37 images). (Note: The Plan only took about 4 hours, with caustics and blured reflections enabled)

The Plan,  The Captive Version 2,  The Scorceress,  Testing the Water

edited to check the nudity tag ... opps!!

These are truly great renders Dustrider I have to take a really good look at Carrara.

Vintorix, there are many more renders in the Carrara gallery that are really great, but I was a bit lazy in searching for them and posting links. Just like with the Poser gallery - you have to go through a lot of images to find the gems.

For someone who already has recent version of C4D/Interposer Pro, or Vue, Carrara probably won't be of great interest. But for a Poser (or DS) user who wants something with a few more tools, a faster renderer that can do caustics, does reflection and refraction at respectable speeds, is fun to use with the same querky KAI interface as Poser, and doesn't want to break the bank (just watch for the sales at DAZ, or look for the free versions on 3D magazine CD's), it can be a great addition to your "Poser" tool box.

There are things, like cloth, that Poser does much better than Carrara, but in many ways, Carrara's dynamic hair is better than Poser's. Carrara also has integrated modeling and physics. Carrara's modeling tools are not at the same level as the tools found in C4D, but they are quite usable. Noviski (http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/browse.php?username=noviski) does all of his modeling and rigging in Carrara, and has created some really great characters. He posted renders a lot of them in the old DAZ Carrara Gallery, and in the old DAZ Carrara forum. Many people give the modeler(s) in Carrara a bad rap, but it's quite useful, the workflow is just a bit different then other applications (but it's no Modo - that's for sure).

As with any 3D app, anyone who is interested in Carrara should definitely "try before you buy". Just cuase I like it, doesn't mean anyone else reading this thread will find it  easy to use, or a valuable addition to their tool box.

DustRider,

The rendering is ok, IMO far better than Poser's that have a constant depth field on everything even of that which is supposed to be in focus.

But the reason that I am considering Carrara is not for the rendering but for working with animations and Marvelous Designer's dynamic cloth. It works in C4D but there are annoyances. For example the bvh export Daz > C4D always botches a little, it is never exact needing time consuming corrections. There are other small things too such as that Interposer can't handle high-heels. It adds up. Perhaps just as Anabran say it is not so smart to depend 100% on the one single person.

The animations I want to do are not for big time production only for small runwalks and presentation of fashion. I think Carrara will fit in smoothly.

As for the heavy lifting I have always used C4D together with ZBrush. But for every month ZBrush is used a little more and C4D a little less. Maybe Carrara and ZBrush is all that I need? Anyway I don't plan to throw away C4D anytime soon but perhaps abstain from the hose expensive updates until I see how this works out.

Carrara need a number of plugins, the aniblock importer, the hvh exporter and mdd export/import plugin. But all is very moderately priced. I will make a serious try. Wish me luck!

"I just had to respond to say Thanks lmckenzie (picture me standing in the corner and blushing), ..."

Hey DustRider, you're very welcome. Your work, e.g. The Plan did give me a better iimpression of Carrara, though to be honest, the idea and the composition are a big part of why I like that image as well. Elianeck's work is superb! Thanks for the links.

Every renderer's lighting, etc. has a different 'out of the box' look. What little I had seen from Carrara and my very cursory dabbling (C6P) was vaguely lacking in some hard to describe way, maybe contrast or color intensity or Jjroland's comment about depth or realism. Part of it may be simply what kind of look one prefers. Certainly, works like Elianeck's Twins really have a look I like. There may be other applications that are closer to that by default but I imagine that the good ones are all pretty capable of achieving it with more or less effort.

Quite a few folks here seem to be into hardcore photo-realism these days and Poser has certainly become much more capable in that regard. Thanks to people like Snarly and BB, there are some great ways to harness that. If you get into creating your own materials though, I'm not sure that the learning curve is any less steep than for the 'higher-end' programs. With lighting, you're always going to have to learn the 'personality' of whatever you're using. One great advantage of Poser is that it's always been content driven. Because of that, tons of stuff is ready made. There's certainly shaders etc. for C4D, Carrara etc. but Poser really has that covered. There's a lot to be said for staying within the DAZ (DS-Carrara)/Poser universe.

Unfortunately, the advancements have made it harder for many to venture outside. I used to lust for realism. I still admire it, but these days (3rd childhood) I'm as likely to prefer cute toons or a more 'artistic' look - even if it's only achieved through image editor filters :-) I could still fire up Poser 4 to set up a scene and take it into Vue or some other program, do some basic material stuff and then work on lighting, atmosphere, etc. That's not going to cut it for the beautiful shader laden, skin you can touch, 'is that a photo?' scene (dynamics are probably another issue). Even IF you can find equivalents for the other program, you're still going to have to manually substitute.

I'd encourage anyone to look at alternatives. There's nothing wrong with using only Poser but there's something to be said for being promiscuous too. With regard to evaluating older versions, geekatplay.com has a lot of free video tutorials for Vue that go back to at least Vue 6. I know tutorials aren't a substitute for hands on experience but they can give you some idea of the interface, the workflow etc. They're probably similar resources for C4D. Also if you're seriously looking at spending big bucks then I'd consider getting one or two books on the software - you might find some at the library. In my day, we didn't have these demo CDs (or any CDs for that matter) and these fancy intertube videos, we read.

Attached Link: Octane Render - The Interactive Physically Based Render Engine

Quote - Also Carrera are supposed to get Octane where you can see a preliminary of the rendering after only a few seconds, good enough to make a decision. So I am not worried.

 

Thanks for the tip - I didn't know that Carrara was going to get a plugin for Octane, that will be great!

There are a few people that frequent the DAZ Carrara forums that could tell you more about animating in Carrara. I haven't done much with animation in it, so I can't be of much help.

Good Luck!