I'm just curious to know if people prefer:

(1) a lot of material zones in a human Poser figure (let's assume realistic not cartoon)

OR

(2) as few as possible (for possibly faster render times)?

Or 

(3) some other option? ;-)

What material zones do you like to see?

2 - As few as possible. 

Personally, having many render zones has never proven to be an advantage to me. I've never seen a time when it saved me time or allowed me to do something that couldn't be done more easily another way.

Personally #1 is nice for second skins, tattoos, etc. However, it seems to me that it drags  performance / rendering down (unless you're using a procedural for some sort of second skin effect). The old Gen 3 figures seemed to lean more toward #1.

Agree? Disagree?

As few material zone (and texturemaps) as possible.  The ultimate is one material zone for all skin.

There are several problems with limited material zones. The biggest is makeup application: lipstick, etc. It is hard to find a good balance.

few as possible! the worst example of useless materials is P8 people eyeballs those are named differently for left and right although their texture is seperated and not one that suits both like V3! there is no reason at all for this setup

lips nipples and nails (both hand and toes, I don't see a reason those two to have different material settings) and other details could have their material

I also believe that maps should be as few as possible and in groups that make sence (V4 ears on the torso map is a fail example)

As few as possible.
Preferably, single skin texture.
My current figure has this;

• Body => Single texture, including head and limbs

• Mouth => Innermouth and teeth, for SSS purposes. (different SSS group)

• Lashes => they need a GC of 1 for transparancy

• Eyeball => Includes both eyesballs, iris, pupils

• Cornea => for reflection and transparancy

• Preview

WHY???
because it makes material room work SOOOOOOOO much more user friendly.

And???
If I need a material???
Poser can create a new material internally. => But it can not delete one internally.. !!!!

Examples :
Posette if you want a front to back opening uvmap
PoserPro figures if you want a tear open body. => This is preferrable.

Single map texture does not mean less space or lower quality.
Poser is not limited to 4096x4096 maps and gladly accepts 8192x8192 texture maps.

All you need is ONE good diffuse texture map.
Poser can make displacement @ blinn, internally with procedural shaders.

V3 and M3 was the best...

It seems like nails probably need to be broken out separately as well. Maybe tongue separate as well, unless you plan to use a displacement (or bump) map. And, brows separate for ones that have a brows overlay.

I personally am anti-seams. The less, the better. Blacksmith & Zbrush paint over them well but none are 100% perfect.

As few as are consistent with a reasonable degree of control over the appearance. In my opinion, a human figure should have these zones.

Skin [can be divided into "skin-head", "skin-body", and "skin-genitals" (including the pubic hair region) if desired.
Lashes
Brows [only if there is a separate 'brow' actor]
Nails
Iris
Sclera
Cornea
Pupil [if this is not just a hole]
I tend to favour an 'EyeSocket' material in the head group.
Lacrimals
Lips
MouthInner
Teeth

For a female figure, an argument can be made for a "skin-legs" material, in order to make stockings easier. A toeCap mesh group with its own material (as in Antonia) is also very good for stockings.

Nipples should definately not be a separate material in my oppinion.

Do you all think that you should keep iris, pupil and sclera separate or combined?

It seems like the primary benefit of separating them would be for toon usage, but then it would be more helpful to have an iris outline.  Do you all agree?

Is there not a benefit to separating these eye parts, relative to having the ability to use different reflection and SSS set ups in the shaders for the different parts?

EZ Skin does use different settings for each. It's hard to argue with the beauty of the EZ Skin eyes. 

Quote - Do you all think that you should keep iris, pupil and sclera separate or combined?

I would keep them separate. Different parts of the eye often need to have different properties, and separate materials seems to my mind the easiest way of accomplishing that. In the "Antonia - Opinions?" thread BB says a bit about natural looking eyes, it may be worth having a look, though the thread is so long that it can be hard to find what you are looking for.

I should have stated in my last post, that whilst I know quite a bit about the internals of Poser library files, I know very little on the subject of materials and material zones. My opinion in this field is not an expert opinion.

An object's material is composed of at least three things:

• Surface colour
• Surface texture (bump / displacement)
• Material properties (scattering / reflectivity / fresnel / transparency etc.)

If all you are interested in is the first of these (colour) and are willing to ignore the others, then the fewest number of material zones will be best, perhaps even one. That way you don't have to worry about seams and UV mapping is straightforward(ish).

However, if you want to give due consideration to surface texture and material properties, then you have to find a way to identify separate zones so that areas with different properties can have those differences reflected in different shaders.

There are two obvious ways to achieve this:

• Separate material zones
• Control maps

I prefer separate material zones because (1) I'm lazy and don't want to make control maps and (2) I still have the option to make control maps anyway, in addition to the separate material zones, so I get the best of both worlds.

To summarise, you need to ask yourself this question:

Do I want to make control maps?

If the answer is yes, by all means minimise the number of material zones.

Otherwise, for each part of the object you need to ask yourself:

Does this part have different surface texture or material properties to the rest of the object?

If the answer is yes, it needs a material zone of its own.

There are other considerations, especially with regard to colour.

If your surface colour is going to be defined by an image map, then that is straightforward.

However, using procedural colour may be easier, or at least offer more variety, if the objects surface is divided up into material zones, each of which can have its own shader.

While I would argue that the points I made in my first post were objective, this issue of making it easier to make procedural colour via multiple material zones is more subjective: it depends very much on your artistic needs a user. On the other hand, as a vendor you cannot expect to anticipate the artistic needs of all your potential buyers, so it may be prudent to furnish a model with several material zones - those that use only image maps will groan but be able to cope, while those that make procedurals will (in most cases) love you for it.

What Snarly said, with a side order of Les.  :)

That's for humans and animals, btw.  Machinery and hard surface stuff in general, I prefer to have as many materials as logic dictates.  See my Daleks, for example.  It makes it a damn sight easier to make different colour schemes without using control maps. 

I "drive" displacement with the diffuse texture => Darker parts like brows get MORE displacement

I "drive" blinn with the diffuse texture => Darker parts like brows get LESS Blinn

The rest is procedural.

Am I right in thinking we're talking about two things here... the UV mapped texture map and the material groups, as then appear in Poser (which could all use a single texture map, even if there are a lot of those)?

EDIT: e.g. The V4 eyes are usually a single texture map but multiple material room groups...

Full explanation, and more examples can be found here:

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2853958

Quote - Am I right in thinking we're talking about two things here... the UV mapped texture map and the material groups, as then appear in Poser (which could all use a single texture map, even if there are a lot of those)?

EDIT: e.g. The V4 eyes are usually a single texture map but multiple material room groups...

Yep, the discussion here is zones not the number of maps.

As my first post; as few as possible.

You see in my above example?

If I want to change HSV, or displacement, or Blinn, or turbulence, or any other value or map, for that matter?
I only have to do it ONCE, and everything follows.
I am ready to testrender imediately, check, adjust, and so on.

If you have multiple material zones, you have busy hr, for every single change.
And you can be **** sure, you"ll  make errors.

And yes there are scripts, but no not everybody likes / uses / downloads / has internet /

My main purpose will always be :
=> AUFAP
=> As User Friendly As possible

, and INSIDE Poser.

And the answer is YES!
The question was; Does this only work with a single texture map?

So, they are related.

I always appreciate all the material zones I can get. It gives you much more easy control over the texture. Nails, skin, pubic hair, teeth are all different materials and need different material setups. Even if you use a single texture for the diffuse color. It also allows you to mix and match. Setting these up with control maps is a pain. I use control maps a lot, but only for "special" features like a tattoe or scar. Having everything driven by control maps would be a big spaghetti of nodes.

You make good points, vilters.  I wouldn't think there would be too many errors with multiple material zones if someone (1) saves a MT5 of their changed material, (2) applies the MT5 to the other applicable material zones, and then (3) swaps the Image_Map maps as needed.  For a figure like V4, I do this process for the face parts. Then change maps, save another MT5 and repeat for torso...then for limbs. Then when I'm done. I save a nice little MC6 for future use.

[Python scripts make it easier but my process is fast. I do this all the time when I'm creating characters. I know this is pretty elementary but I'm sharing this for newbies or those who don't use the material room much.]

VSS will let you edit one material and send it to all the skin zones. Just sayin.

I downloaded a free drum kit today. Each stand was a different material zone. Why? I got annoyed having to apply a chrome shader 11 times.

The general answer, that says nothing actually, is there should be one zone for each different shader you need. The trouble is some people need, for example, one skin zone, and others want more because they do second skin clothing or whatever.

Lips as a separate zone never work for me. I don't do background figures, and up close the hard edge is clearly visible. Same with nipples. What's the point?

I would have to say the lip and nipple zone thing has zero value.

If you can find a use for it, that's still not worth putting the rest of us through the useless-busy-work activity of copying a shader to multiple zones.

simple answer.

*as many as are needed to give a good render and effect.

Quote - Lips as a separate zone never work for me. I don't do background figures, and up close the hard edge is clearly visible. Same with nipples. What's the point?

I would have to say the lip and nipple zone thing has zero value.

As a character creator, I like a lip zone because I can supply dozens of mix and match lips (using only a portion of the map and the rest being while to save file size) at smaller file sizes than a full face map. Granted, I'm not so sure the guys in the crowd care about changing lipstick as much as we girls do (just sayin'). Deep down, there's a little bit of "playing with Barbies" that goes on mentally with some of us girls who use Poser. There. I said it.

That said, character creators have to know to use a specular map or reflection map to handle the glossy parts (feathered), otherwise, yes, you get that horrible edge to the glossy. Same goes with the lip diffuse. No hard edges.

Oh, and then those who do toon shaders want the ability to see a lip, I'm sure.

BB, we agree.

And??? If the end user needs an extra material zone??
He/she can create one in Poser.

But if the product is delivered with too many???
You can not delete them inside Poser. => You will need an external script to do so.

In the end it is all about user friendly.

Make it too complicated and you are (mostly)  on your own.

Quote - BB, we agree.

And??? If the end user needs an extra material zone??
He/she can create one in Poser.

But if the product is delivered with too many???
You can not delete them inside Poser. => You will need an external script to do so.

In the end it is all about user friendly.

Make it too complicated and you are (mostly)  on your own.

You cannot make a good material zone in Poser. The group editor is restricted to polygon edges which is not what you want in a material zone

Quote - Make it too complicated and you are (mostly)  on your own.

DAZ certainly hasn't done that. Hasn't hurt them. But then, they're DAZ.

Agree with Vilters.  Too simple?  Poser can make new zones.  Too complex?  Poser can't join them conveniently.  Better to err on the simple side.

One other consideration for inanimate stuff like cars and robots and phones:  Some material zones need to be animated separately.   For instance, a car needs separate zones for the left taillight and right taillight to enable directional flashing; and might need zones for various warning lights on the dashboard.

I have to second what BB said.  You will always have hard edges between zones, so no lips or nips.

I do always create a separate nostril zone with minimized spec and diffuse values, as a hard edge there is rarely noticeable.

The hard edge may be because you're changing a value (diffuse, reflection, specular) without using a method to soften the edge.

The best way to change the lip color is via the texture map itself. Make a lip overlay. Change the color using whatever method you like. Feather the edge in Photoshop & use a textured brush to lightly erase away parts of the lip overlay so it doesn't have an even edge (even if feathered). Keep the edge of the lip color away from the edge of the lip material zone.

The most effective way I've found to add glossiness to lips is to create a reflection (or specular map if you're willing to go to a bit more work) using a similar effect to the aforementioned technique for the map. Make sure that there is nothing other than black  touching the edge of the map. Create a feathered & textured edge to look real. The main portion of each lip should have a medium-to-high-contrast version of the diffuse map in black and white. Gaussian blur as needed. Avoid using any sort of reflection or heavy specular where the lips meet.

Actually you could use that method to apply a diffuse color to an existing map as well, if you're willing to go through the hassle of blending it. 

A lip map is essential for character creators. I can't imagine not people able to supply numerous lip files with only the lip material zone (plus bleed) on the map. The file size is substantially smaller. It's too limiting to have one set of makeup per lipstick. I'm a girl. I like makeup variety. ;)

Quote - The hard edge may be because you're changing a value (diffuse, reflection, specular) without using a method to soften the edge.

That is why they often become visible.  And if you aren't changing them enough to be visible, they probably don't need their own zones either.

Where does Poser provide a way to soften edges across mat zones?

Quote - I downloaded a free drum kit today. Each stand was a different material zone. Why? I got annoyed having to apply a chrome shader 11 times.

The general answer, that says nothing actually, is there should be one zone for each different shader you need. The trouble is some people need, for example, one skin zone, and others want more because they do second skin clothing or whatever.

Cool script over at RDNA called Advanced Materials Manager by Shaderworks that will let you set up one material zone and then copy it over by selecting all similar zones and it takes all the nodes, hooks them up the same way.  It's awesome.

Quote - The hard edge may be because you're changing a value (diffuse, reflection, specular) without using a method to soften the edge.

The best way to change the lip color is via the texture map itself. Make a lip overlay. Change the color using whatever method you like. Feather the edge in Photoshop & use a textured brush to lightly erase away parts of the lip overlay so it doesn't have an even edge (even if feathered). Keep the edge of the lip color away from the edge of the lip material zone.

The most effective way I've found to add glossiness to lips is to create a reflection (or specular map if you're willing to go to a bit more work) using a similar effect to the aforementioned technique for the map. Make sure that there is nothing other than black  touching the edge of the map. Create a feathered & textured edge to look real. The main portion of each lip should have a medium-to-high-contrast version of the diffuse map in black and white. Gaussian blur as needed. Avoid using any sort of reflection or heavy specular where the lips meet.

Actually you could use that method to apply a diffuse color to an existing map as well, if you're willing to go through the hassle of blending it. 

A lip map is essential for character creators. I can't imagine not people able to supply numerous lip files with only the lip material zone (plus bleed) on the map. The file size is substantially smaller. It's too limiting to have one set of makeup per lipstick. I'm a girl. I like makeup variety. ;)

I agree with this.  :)

I think there is also the matter of how the object is UV mapped.  If the lips are given their own texture, they'd need their own zone.  

I still do not understand this blending of zones people have mentioned.

I think there is also the matter of how the object is UV mapped. If the lips are given their own texture, they'd need their own zone.

Quote - I think there is also the matter of how the object is UV mapped. If the lips are given their own texture, they'd need their own zone.

I still do not understand this blending of zones people have mentioned.

In the case of diffuse... You're not really blending zones. You're just blending one texture into another within a single material zone (in this case "lips") using a mask. Rather than reinvent the wheel, here's PhilC's tutorial.

http://www.philc.net/tutorial10.php

• For Image_Map, you'd use your character's diffuse texture.

• Instead of Image_Map_2 he uses in the tutorial, you could use a diffuse color, if you preferred.

• Instead of Image_Map_3, you'd use a "mask" of a feathered lip mat which you would have to create separately in Photoshop. I would suggest a semi-rough edge rather than a smooth, feathered edge.

• For all other nodes, they must match your "face" MAT settings exactly (or whatever the material zone is called that touches your lip material zone).

If you want glossy lips not to have a hard edge using procedurals rather than the technique I listed in a previous post, the best way to do that is to "disturb the edge" of your lip reflection. Displacement (or bump) helps with that. I found that a combination of clouds + edge blend does a good job with that.

That's what has worked for me. It requires some fiddling around. I prefer the other method better than this for the glossy part and diffuse. I think that "colorizing" the diffuse in a "blender" manner never looks as good as someone who knows how to properly change it in Photoshop can do. But if you're crunched on harddrive space (don't want all the extra textures), it'll work in a pinch.

(Next to last paragraph: I should have said "disturb the edge of your material zone" (or simply disturb the entire reflection)

I have a machine that powers through renders so more zones is not an issue.  However, if I decide to change a material, like add a shader or tweak the SSS, the fewer the better becuase it saves me the work of having to add the shader to all the zones.

On the other hand, if it is clothing and I want to change a fringe or lapel, or whatnot, then smart zones are helpful.  All the fringe, or both lapels are helpful but obviously I would not want all the clothing to respond the same way. 

So good luck!

Quote - I think there is also the matter of how the object is UV mapped.  If the lips are given their own texture, they'd need their own zone.  

I still do not understand this blending of zones people have mentioned.

The lips could have overlapping UVs but would need separate mats to use different textures.

(I know it looks like I responded to myself, I just wanted to clarify that particular observation...)

UV space doesn't affect materials.  You can use a 32x32 texture on the lips and get a good result IF they use the available space.  Or you can map the lips to a tiny 32x32 portion of a full body map and get the same thing.

I know, it's crazy.

I use UVMapper Pro. You can only assign one material zone to a particular poly (with multiple polys per material zone, of course). Is there something that will let you assign two material zones or more per poly?