important than saying something that is true?

In the galleries we see the option for saying that only 'posistive', comments are welcomed. Does that apply in this forum too? Should we refrain from saying anything that another person may not like. It seems so to me.

Sometimes I see some less than art in the gallery but if I say that the lighting, composition and meaing needs attetion then I am a troll. I have even been called a troll in this forum for presenting an alternative approach to a problem.

Is it better to pretend somthing is good than to offend someone who is presenting something that is less than than good?

Welcome to the world where everyone is fishing for positive comments and regard anything negative as rude.  This not a new issue, always been around and there is not much you can do.  The old adage, if youdon't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all.  I usually refrain from making comments just for that reason.

I must be one of the few that appreciates some constructive criticism. If it weren't for that, I wouldn't have strived so hard to learn so much, and keep learning.

Stop by the chat room here sometime, and we share pics, get opinions, learn new tricks, etc. Not everyone is just looking for a compliment, some of us actually wanna grow more as artists.

I'm with you Bionic.  I appreciate a good criticism for the same reasons. 

the galleries at one time were for making "constructive" criticism as much as exhibiting your art. There are few that can do a piece and say there are no problems with it, so its all for the better of our work, imo.... unfortunately, not everyone can accept criticism.

Unfortunately, there are those for whom the definitions of "constructive" and "nice" simply allude them.  That and the fact that it is virtually imposible to ascertain someones tone when reading, we should be a bit more careful in what is said regarding someone elses work.  

When someone is asking a question in the forum that has been answered many times before, it may be "true" that the answer that comes to mind is "jeez, look it up" but to someone new or someone not familiar with the forums that idea may not have crossed their minds so the correct response would be to answer their question.

If someone is new at poser or for them poser is a slight hobby, their renders may not be great, they may struggle with lighting.  Responding to them as if they should know better or simply telling them a render is "bad" is not constructive but offering suggestions, nicely, is the way to go.

In the simplest terms, it's all about how something is said.  

I think those who tag their images as "positive only" are doing exactly the right thing. They are being honest! And if you critique their images, you are being rude.

ETA: Looking at the gallery settings, you're only permitted to tag an image as "non-critical commentary PREFERRED". So: you're not a troll if you offer a criticism, as apparently Rendo does not give people the option to say that criticism is completely unacceptable. But you are going against the stated wishes of the person who posted the image. They really don't want criticism. So, yeah, it's still kinda rude to give it to them.

The ones I take issue with are those who tag their images "both critical and non-critical comments welcome" but who still get mad when you offer a critique. Or if they don't respond, their followers start harrassing you. It poisons the entire community and makes it basically worthless as a place to learn because everyone is afraid to offer a reasonable criticism, even on postings that are tagged to accept them.

I like to look at the images by my favorite artists here, but I see no point in participating in the gallery, except when I want to link an image to a forum post.

I find that criticism is welcome only if there is an actual suggestion on how to improve.

Things like "a point light positioned here would improve the scene" is fine while "your lighting sucks" is not.

This is not a new issue it just keeps coming up at intervals.

At some point it becomes a matter of opinion and each person needs to decide what they want from each picture.

Having gone to an art school with a strong emphasis on critique I'm often astounded at how thin skinned many poserites are about criticism. Maybe this arises from an underlying insecurity over considering oneself an artist while pushing the make art button.  The whole notion of what passes for art and who denotes themselves artists is even more confounding in this medium than the fuzziness that I've encountered in the realm of conceptual art. Admittedly, my poser and cg skills have a way to go before they compare to my abilities in other mediums (Hell, I've only* really* been doing this for a year and it's not exactly an intuitive medium) but frankly alot of what I see here is conform panty, click pose, slap coat of bagginsbill, and render clones... AND I might add, act like some kind of f'ing guru while preening over hack dreck.

Is it any wonder that poser is the laughing stock of CG?

Well, there's my blanket critique... please keep in mind that I have an abiding love for bad art, kitsch, poser, and geekdom.

...Waiting for the peasants with torches and pitchforks, or rather just kill me with indifference.

This topic comes up from time to time. Personally, I'm not itching to say "that which is true" in the Renderosity galleries. A few times I've made suggestions that could be construed as constructive criticism and haven't suffered for it.

There are some amazing artists here, but this sort of thing is rare. You'll find a lot more insanely great artists at Deviant Art, but even there they are buried under a mountain of mediocrity.

The Rabbis teach that Truth is NOT a virtue when it causes undue pain!

I too like to recieve constructive critism (but I expect it to be constructive, meaning you actually help me by telling me what I could've done better, I do not however appreciate people who say anyone sucks, no one sucks, we're just a work in progress)...

I actually give myself a lot of critism, to the point where I've only been using Poser since 2008/09 and I've went from this:

To this:

And I still hope to get even better.

*"Having gone to an art school with a strong emphasis on critique I'm often astounded at how thin skinned many poserites are about criticism." *

I think it's a pretty safe bet that the vast majority here did not go to art school. Probably a good number can't draw a straight line with a ruler. Poser provides the untutored and the untalented a means of expression. Whether you call it art or something else is a matter of opinion :-) I don't find it at all surprising that the average person enjoying something as a hobby isn't necessarily going to respond the same as a professional or a dedicated amateur. Add to that the fact that different people have different levels of tolerance of criticism - some are thick-skinned, some may be shaped by overly critical even abusive parents, yada yada. I'm pretty sure that even some of the 'greats' chafed at minor critical comments on their work.

If you don't know the person, follow the Mary Poppins rule of criticism - a spoonfull of sugar helps the medicine go down. I'd say find at least two or three positive things to say for every 'negative,' and no more than two negatives art a time. Be careful about 'you should' or 'you need to' etc. 'you might want to' probably goes down better. If doing that seems like too much trouble or too fake, maybe it's better not to say anything. I'd think more in terms of being in someone's home and commenting on their stuff (and you really want to get invited to stay for dinner) than being in a graduate seminar. That doesn't apply to everyone, but I'd use that as the default. * *

icandy265, I kind of like the first image better... the second one could use more contrast.

hehe.

I appreciate constructive criticism.

If some one just want's to be a ass hole ,no thanks.

primorge, yeah lol... I was referring to the detail and realism, but in terms of lighting and shadow, yes the first one is better... Actually the only reason the second one has so much lighting is because it's main purpose is to show off the detail... It's a promo image, hehe. But for "art" renders I would use better lighting and more shadows. 

Thanks for the feeback :)

Quote - Having gone to an art school with a strong emphasis on critique I'm often astounded at how thin skinned many poserites are about criticism. 

Art schools can be pretty brutal. In order to survive that environment one needs to learn that a criticism of the work isn't (necessarily) a personal attack on one's character. When my friend was pinning up the results of months of design work for an end-of-year crit and the director of the school of architecture said "Take that shit off my walls" my friend didn't take it personally, he didn't even take the work down. He presented a very convincing argument for his decisions and passed the exam quite well.

After you've been through an environment like that, when you post your work and say "Tell me what you think of it" you really mean exactly that - you have already detatched your own self-worth from the work, the work is on trial, not you. (You're also only going to take the advice you agree with or advice from those you respect, anything else you will just discard, but that's a whole different topic).

But different strokes for different folks, most artists here liked their work enough to post it and they are delighted that all their friends like it too. The family cat is their harshest critic and they'd be happy to keep it that way. I say let 'em.

Quote - Is it any wonder that poser is the laughing stock of CG?

Indeed, but that's okay. It doesn't hurt the people who enjoy Posering for fun, it only affects Smith Micro when they try to get the rest of the CG world to take the tool seriously.

I agree with lmckenzie in regards to alot of people here are hobbiest and work on their galleries with pure enjoyment.  I have also gone to art school, of course that is when dirt was discovered so it was a while ago, but the basic truth still remains the same, those that ask for only positive comments, should be respected to the point that they don't want critisim, that is fine. 

I myself always want to learn, so I do want critisism that will assist me in going forward, so really to each their own.

To bad though, can you imagine how amazing some galleries can be if they just learned more, including me.

Quote - Having gone to an art school with a strong emphasis on critique I'm often astounded at how thin skinned many poserites are about criticism. Maybe this arises from an underlying insecurity over considering oneself an artist while pushing the make art button.  The whole notion of what passes for art and who denotes themselves artists is even more confounding in this medium than the fuzziness that I've encountered in the realm of conceptual art. Admittedly, my poser and cg skills have a way to go before they compare to my abilities in other mediums (Hell, I've only* really* been doing this for a year and it's not exactly an intuitive medium) but frankly alot of what I see here is conform panty, click pose, slap coat of bagginsbill, and render clones... AND I might add, act like some kind of f'ing guru while preening over hack dreck.

Is it any wonder that poser is the laughing stock of CG?

Well, there's my blanket critique... please keep in mind that I have an abiding love for bad art, kitsch, poser, and geekdom.

...Waiting for the peasants with torches and pitchforks, or rather just kill me with indifference.

The Poser community is not unique in this. Photography suffers exactly the same issues.  Just like Poser, photography is open to complete amateurs who know how to do no more than buy the equipment and press the shutter.

I expect that more traditional media such as painting don't quite suffer the same because even though there are plenty of truly awful paintings, it actually takes more than a single reflexive spasm (click on iPhone, auto upload to share) to create something someone else can see online.

I have no formal art training and so it is not a surprise to find I cannot draw to any degree.  Not that I did not try as I did have ideas in my head that I wanted to explore.  Poser allows me to do this but I do not profess to be good at it.  Anyone is welcome to give critical comment to any of the images in my gallery, after all, I tend to be quite critical of my own work.   On the rare occasion that a critical comment has been left I have usually sent a site mail thanking the person for their time and input and taken the comment on board for the next time.

The same can be said for anything I do in life,  I like constructive critisism but on the other hand I tend to live with my heart on my sleeve and know that such critisism can hurt.  I try to help others in a way that is supportive but I do find this is getting more and more difficult to do as the trend is to be positive, even if you need to lie to do so.  This causes me more difficulties as I have always been brought up to be honest.  Those that know me well know that, if I give no feedback to something, that any feed back would be negative but I would rather be much more contructive and helpful.

I want to improve what I do with Poser so I welcome any help but I also understand for many it is a hobby which they are happy to take or leave as they please and there is nothing wrong in that.

People comment about my Art I hang on my walls.
Even thou there not Artist they make comments critics etc etc.
Some of there critics make no since at all.
There not Artist and don't know any thing about Art.
But most people that comes to the house will do this.

When I made a comment about every one commenting about my Art
I hang on my walls to a friend of mine she just laugh and laugh.

So I'm looking at her like she's wasted.

She told me I was a ass hole for not knowing how good I had it.

So now I'm looking at her like she's a dumb drunk.

Then she starts laughing even harder.
Some where in the laughter she mutters but your like a slash.

So now I'm going ya right ,your hilarious.

She goes think about it.Your like a rock start to them.

Now I'm laughing histrionically.
I'm going rock stars are rich as sin and I'm broke as a church mouse.
Most people that comes to the house has more money then me.
Defiantly nicer cars.

She's going your a idiot ,you can buy a car you can't buy your life.
She's going they all want to be a broke Artist like you ,go to bed when they want ,get up when they want. they can't grow there hair or beard there boss won't let them.

They have degree's & salesman of the year hanging on there wall's.

I'm open to any kind of comment.  There is a way to say things that might be critical comments in a polite way and I try to do that.  If someone has that option turned off, then I try to avoid it out of respect.  We all learn from what others notice that we didn't notice, so I find the critical comments of value.

Um, well, I'm not an artist.  Period, no way, not an artist.  And I don't have anything in anyone's gallery anywhere, but,

If someone wants to criticize what I do, not being an artist has it's advantages.  More or less "Please tell someone that cares". 

I've got a lot of junk on sharecg, and it never ceases to amaze me, looking at the numbers, views and downloads, there's more than one that I bombed on completely.  It isn't going to hurt my feelings if someone asks why I bothered, there are times I ask myself the same. 

It's not going to insult me to say it's not realistic enough, for my purposes, where it's going to be in the distance and seen through the trees, that doesn't matter. 

But the normal is on the "Wow, great, wonderful, great work", when I know it's not.

But if someone says "This sucks", I'm not going to go into a heel kicking, screaming fit over it.  I might put a little more attention on detail in the next one, but I'm not going to be insulted either.

Even totally negative comments are sometimes helpful, they force you to think and maybe see what you might have done differently.  And, "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen."

D.

I don't comment on renders in poser gallery here because it's often a question of technique in how to use poser, e.g. having seen countless thousands with no shadows, nostril glow, poor scene construction, no IDL, et al.  it's time-consuming to instruct users about poser, as we've seen here in this forum.  I wanted the art criticism forum here to be about art theory, but it became technique in how to use softwares, over-riding any aesthetic concerns, which should be more appealing to an human than even the most elegant material room shader tree.

I feel bad about not commenting positively on renders that I like and that are done with the best technique, but those artists already know they're very good at what they do.  they post their images because they enjoy sharing and are proud of them.  the ones who need the fake kudos are the nostril-glow bunch.  if they get enough encouragement, they may eventually learn how to use poser.

I'm tempted to bite my tongue but... All the IDL, sophisticated shader set-ups and poser knowledge in the world isn't going to help someone if they have no sense of design or imagination. Sure, I've seen alot of images that were near perfectly photorealistic in poser technique (as if photorealism is the end goal of art) the problem is that it or they still look like images from a Sears catalogue. I'll take a lowly poser 4 render engine image that has some imagination and life over the perfectly rendered simulacra that seems to be the end goal of so many poser "pros".

I would echo Miss Nancy's point. If you're going to criticize some technical thing then be prepared to explain to the person how they can fix it - preferably something more than 'use search.'

Yes, technical prowess overtook esthetics here some time ago and I don't see that changing, though even as a complete non-artist, I find it rather sad.  

People also will go off on you for the littlest of things.  Just after PP12 came out someone mentioned using it, so I pointed him to some resources to get the most of it.  The b****** decided to go off via sitemail. 

I didn't even say anything bad about the image itself.

Musta been the Chocobo... Winterclaw.

I know they say the holy grail of CGI is to be photo realistic.
That's great for Hollywood movies ,half to say scifi ,fantasy movies
looks a lot better.

But with CGI we can go realism or any where we want to go.

Your see some wicked special effects ,characters in games
it's not realism but it's kool.

Quote - I wanted the art criticism forum here to be about art theory, but it became technique in how to use softwares, over-riding any aesthetic concerns, which should be more appealing to an human than even the most elegant material room shader tree.

I would really love to see this form of forum here. It could be a great artistic resource I think... and for the betterment of Poserites et al, generally... surely?

Is this what is currently titled "Critique Forum" though? :-(

To answer the initial question..  I would not get mad if someone would post some constructive critique ( mu opinion of my silly renderings is not high.. a little feelings to be hurt here) But in here you do not have possibility to see that someone responded to your critique ( like on DA for example) ...

And seeing that there are people here, who are not fluent in english, it can make a lot of misuderstandigs.

(didn't read all the comments on this post but got enough info to comment)...

This is exactly why I don't bother posting images or comment on uploads here, if I did, then I support what the general people here do... just pat your back and go on like this is only a business, spending a few seconds not even looking at details or absurbing anything (I see so much repetitive remarks, more likely copy/paste/go).  Also people only wishing for a pat on the back.  I feel like the "gallery" here is only a "statistic" business place, people want only statistic, and if you pat their back, they'll pat your back.  Blah, that's not what a gallery is about.  In here, you can't communicate back & forth and talk about details, and it's hard to ask for criticues here 'cause you can't ask questions (you're only permitted to post once in your upload)... that is, unless you sitemail back & forth where other people can't see and learn things as well.

I hang around DeviantArt, where true artists hang out & we can actually COMMUNICATE and have discussions, also we have this special option to tick "critique my art" when loading images, or we ask people in our "Artist's Comment" to critique our art or ask for help, and have the ability to reply directly to them where they'll get the message notification.  Other people browsing those comments will see and learn things as well.

As for people that don't want to learn how to do things the right way, they don't deserve the title "artists", they only play in 3D programs & load images as a game, killing time, or addiction or just to get a pat on the back.  This "gallery" at Renderosity don't make sense to me at all, it's a "pat my back and I'll pat your back" system.  A gallery should be a place where you load images and get encouragements/critiques from other people, or give encouragement/critiques... to help one another, and then or course get special recognition for stunning art work.

There are, however, trolls everywhere we look, which are rude people who go around cutting people's art down (or cutting them down themselves) and don't offer help.  When I say "critique", I'm talking about encouraging the good areas of the images first, then make suggestions/offer help on the parts that don't look good... if you have the artist's permission.  If you don't, then don't offer.

The only reason (and the only reason) I'm good at what I'm doing now is 'cause I always asked for critiques and help in learning how to produce great, natural art.  I've also absorbed a lot of discussions at Daz3D and DeviantArt and learned a lot from them, as well as spent many... MANY MANY hours experimenting things. Hadn't been for that, I'd still be using ugly shadowless lights, producing ultra bright art without occlusion shading and shadows, or ultra dark shaded areas with hard shadows.  In art, you don't teach/learn yourselves, you absorb others' art/communications and learn (from other experienced artists) the tools of the trade.

My two cents... :)

...wolfie

monkey, I believe the art critique forum is called as you said.  haven't actually checked it lately.  maybe they are doing art criticism, which is very difficult to do well, but it can't be done well in gallery here, as several in this thread mentioned.  it may include non-3d and maybe they aren't doing software techniques at all.  they may refer them here for poser users wishing to learn how to use the software.

ya .. no art training, my stick figures look like 4 yr old ...my Poser work was beginning to see something, say something, but then all of a sudden I cant do anything other than pinup stuff, which i never wanted to do ..with canned poses from the store...simplicity or laziness?

That in itself is a criticism that maybe needs expressing. How creative is a person really, if they are using push button art. it feels good, to an extent, but when someone states what a great pose, or whatever, it isn't even your own pose, or texture, whatever. it almost gets to the point that you could argue the art is not even your own art.

Quote - That in itself is a criticism that maybe needs expressing. How creative is a person really, if they are using push button art. it feels good, to an extent, but when someone states what a great pose, or whatever, it isn't even your own pose, or texture, whatever. it almost gets to the point that you could argue the art is not even your own art.

I tend to think of the artwork I make in Poser as being a form of collage... if I am putting it in "fine art" terms:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collage

EDIT: Not in terms of the finished look, of course. Least not generally. More just in terms of the way in which an image is compiled from "found" elements.