Quote - Poser seems so bland without Daz Figures....So stop the hating and be grateful:) We all give Daz a hard time but they have provided us with figures used by most.

Daz choose not to make a cr2 version of Gen 5, not SM... Complain to them about it...

I don't hate Daz, don't care either way.

I thought 2013 might be different, but still the same old things.......

I'm off to have fun with whatever software and whatever figures I want to use.

All the best.

LROG

Quote - > Quote - Most don't use Daz cause they are too lazy to learn the interface. I did and I find it better than Posers. Even if an app is free, if the interface is intimidating, most will give it a pass. Most of these users are hobbiest, it took them long  enough to learn Poser, and don't feel like learning another app.

While that might be true, its totally beside the point. There are other affordable apps out there that people use for hobby, and you don't see those users in the Genesis debate do you?

If you passed up on Daz because of the interface that's your own issue, and your own loss if you must have Genesis. The interface is not that hard to learn.

If full Genesis support was added to Poser, they would have to relearn Poser as well. That would also force all users of Poser to relearn things. If you are an advanced Poser user, you have to learn an entirely new system as well.

Not to mention that they will have to entirely rewrite Poser to support it as well.

Ironically, Daz owns a very similar interface to Poser, and chooses not to use it in Studio..... I guess that people must think thats SMs fault too.....

Well I'm just saying the reason most don't bother is because they find the interface confusing. I did at first and was going to give it a pass but I was really interested in Genesis and forced myself to learn it. I used Poser for 9 years before that, so I understand exactly how confusing it can be.

Quote - > Quote - Poser seems so bland without Daz Figures....So stop the hating and be grateful:) We all give Daz a hard time but they have provided us with figures used by most.

Daz choose not to make a cr2 version of Gen 5, not SM... Complain to them about it...

I don't hate Daz, don't care either way.

Another stand alone figure? Those are things of the past. It will be like V4/M4 all over. Releasing new shapes on a universal mesh is more logical and cost effective, and more flexable.

Last time I checked, V4 and M4 were the same mesh....

Daz is the only company on the unmesh wagon....

There the only company on the Genesis wagon....

Get used to it....

Poser added an addon framework, and people now think that SM should write the plugin for it....

Are they writing the Octane one?

Are they writing the Luxrender one?

No, thats why they added the framework.

Daz needs to write the addon to make it work... Get used to that as well...

All I am saying FIGURE wise, the Genesis system is better than stand alone releases. This is especially beneficial content wise, making it possible to use multiple gen content. If you cannot see all the possibilities by now, it's pointless me trying to explain. I don't want to fight or anything like that, It's just that after using Genesis compared to other figures, I can see why they went this route. I wouldn't have gone any other direction. It is a step in the right direction, not just for users, but for content developers as well.

lol no need for popcorn, I said all I wanted to say. End of the day, as entertaining as these debates are, everyone will stand by their beliefs:)

Poser used to have two render engines. No reason it can't have two posing engines.

I doubt a plugin is enough for full, trouble free Genesis compatibility.

SM will have to invest in Poser's future anyway. Either by rewriting it to fully accomodate Genesis or to pay some professional figure creators so people get a reason to keep on using Poser.

From my perspective, seems like a win/win for the Poserverse.

;-)

Two render engines is completely different than character file formats and handlers...

And Zev, you are right. Being able to use all the clothes is a huge benefit, just not for SM. Their Genesis yearly profit is probably next to nothing.

Ford isn't in business to sell Chevys, just like SM isn't in business to sell Genesis...

Who is to say that SM wont come out with a better system, you never know....

Quote - Two render engines is completely different than character file formats and handlers...

And Zev, you are right. Being able to use all the clothes is a huge benefit, just not for SM. Their Genesis yearly profit is probably next to nothing.

Ford isn't in business to sell Chevys, just like SM isn't in business to sell Genesis...

Who is to say that SM wont come out with a better system, you never know....

I know SM won't come out with a better system. They will never invest so much resources into Posers Developement. It simply does not sell enough to warrent such a budget. And it is too late to start now. Genesis was years in developement, I doubt they even have a system on paper. Poser is just one of the apps they develop. They are more open source relying on the public to improve it. Thats how it has always been. 3rd Parties contributing to the mother app via python etc and external apps. But time will tell if they actually take Poser serious or not with the next version. That will be a clear indicator of where its future lies and the direction they are heading in. The difference between Daz and Poser is Daz makes content, markets it and maintains it (well, most of it). Poser just releases its app and says enjoy, do what you want.

Quote - Daz choose not to make a cr2 version of Gen 5, not SM...

The problem is that the CR2 version wouldn't do what it needed to do. It hasn't done what it needed to do for a few versions (People hated INJ systems because it would overwrite another morph. People hated the EXP system because it had to be in a certain location. People hated PMD since it didn't work.) so DAZ needed to come up with another method. Not to mention the other capabilities of Genesis. I am not a DAZ fan boy and I don't even like DAZ Studio but I do want to use figures that work well and can expand. The CR2 system is fairly limited.

Quote - Two render engines is completely different than character file formats and handlers...

And Zev, you are right. Being able to use all the clothes is a huge benefit, just not for SM. Their Genesis yearly profit is probably next to nothing.

SM has never really developed their own content. They sell you software to render and create, so if their software isn't able to load something pretty to render, how many copies of their software are they going to sell?

Quote - Ford isn't in business to sell Chevys, just like SM isn't in business to sell Genesis...

No, more like Dell doesn't manufacture CPUs, so how many computers would they sell if they were still loading computers with x86 486 chips they still had lying around instead of the Intel 64-bit chips people want?

Quote - Who is to say that SM wont come out with a better system, you never know....

If history serves on their figure releases, I really wouldn't hold my breath on that one. The Poser group is a tiny group in Smith Micro, which business is currently in providing mobile video solutions as their main line of business. Getting resources to fund a comprehensive figure system in a hobbyist app when they're focused on streaming videos to smart phones and other video devices is highly doubtful.

Genesis looks fantastic, but using it in Poser is more of a pain than it's worth. You'd have an easier time getting Poser users to learn dynamic cloth than the DSON hoops.

BUT... I applaud DAZ for trying to find a work around. They NEED it. They pushed and pushed and pushed free software for years to get newbies using their DAZ Studio instead of Poser. The problem is... they have adopted a majority of folks using DAZ Studio who seek 'FREE" DAZ stuff and NOT commercial store products.. unless they too were free.

I don't knock these artists seeking free stuff. To be honest, these folks have a wide range of artistic backgrounds and their work with DAZ Studio is phenomenal. But, they have no interest in buying a bunch of 3rd party stuff.

Poser hobbyists spend a lot of money. This is the consumer base that gave birth to the symbiotic relationship of DAZ and Poser and Renderosity years ago.

How many Poser hobbyists have dumped their DAZ Platinum Club memberships over the past year? That's a lot of money lost.

I would love to use Genesis products.. in Poser Pro 2010. But, I can't.

So, I continue to support the vendors I can in all stores that sell stuff I can use.

I've been playing around using DS4.5 quite a lot, during my experiments with using Genesis in Poser via the DSON Importer.

The latter, the DSON Importer, definitely needs more work... or more tightly integrated with Poser... whatever... if it's going to work as it really needs to. It's useable at present. But far from great. I do hope build 1.0.0.4x (or whatever it ends up) is going to deliver some major improvements.

But, necessary improvements in the DSON Importer aside...

...DS... stands for "Dark Side" here right? He he ;-)

Anyway... the latest build of DS4.5 is actually running pretty slickly for me, on OS X. It seems a lot of work has been going into this app, since I briefly tried the version 3 that I previously downloaded a year and a half ago...

I've been using it a fair bit for converting clothing... and also now morphs, using Gen X.

As a utility, for preparing content... I'd say DS4.5 is getting to be a nice bit of software.

For me, though, Poser is still far and away where it's at for actually using that content... posing figures, composing scenes... and the all important mats / shaders and rendering.

Anyway... I digress.

In answer to the OP, the point is, I can now buy V4 stuff and fairly easily convert it to fit Genesis (if it is clothing) or transpose it to morph Genesis, if it is a character morph.

Or indeed just apply it, if it is a mat... if I wish to use Genesis in Poser... or indeed Genesis in DS4.5(!)

So why should vendors move on, in any hurry, from producing V4 stuff just now, if that is their comfort zone? I can still use their stuff for my cr2 V4 (and V4WM) ...and also use it for Genesis too...

...yay! ;-)

Quote - Ok, so it is all about the mesh and the clothing. But the whole cloth fitting thing, the morphing transfers, the triax weightmapping system are all tied to DS.
So to be able to use the clothing and morph sets and rigging, they need to implement something similar to the DSON importer (at least someone has to do it).

Or are they only interested in the unmorphed figure and clothing meshes? If that is the case, they could have gone for the lowres V4 and M4 - With genesis they get a neutered mesh as default.

For Stills ,You can use Genesis & Morphs & Cloths etc etc with DSON ,Studio
A Export
B GoZ to zBrush.
C not sure about all the App's but maybe ya could GoZ to zBrush from zBrush GoZ to your App.

I don't do animations much .
Can't say about animation plugs.
For Studio there's BVH ,BVH ,PZ2.
For Poser, Some App's ya could use Poser Pro.

Could make ya own rigs

Quote - 20,000 polys? I think that may be a mistake.

All the best.

LROG

What me be wrong ,Never ,LMAO ,Just ask all my x girlfriends ;)

Thou I do appreciate ya short responses.
May be just a sentence or two more would let me know what you are preferring to ?

Really like ya signature paganeagle2001

 Thanks for the hamster posts-you quiting the thread? Oh well. Time to bail then.

Quote - I thought 2013 might be different, but still the same old things.......

I'm off to have fun with whatever software and whatever figures I want to use.

All the best.

LROG

Quote - Most don't use Daz cause they are too lazy to learn the interface. I did and I find it better than Posers. Even if an app is free, if the interface is intimidating, most will give it a pass. Most of these users are hobbiest, it took them long enough to learn Poser, and don't feel like learning another app, so they want it where they are comfortable in.

There are many of us who took one look at that horrendous interface and bought Poser.

It has absolutely nothing to do with laziness.  It's about a gawd awful GUI.  With NO documentation.

I'm going blind because of an illness.  I'm not going to allow that DAZ interface to hurry the process.

Quote - > Quote -  

A quick check of the first page of PoserWorld clothing listing, 18 items for non daz figures, including Anastasia, Antonia, Tyler, Miki4, Kez, and fewer than ten for the daz figures, zero for genesis.   Dynamic for some, that Poser can use. That's only one page, go further and you'll find far more v4-m4, even v3-m3. 

Some for K4, the PT's, some for V4, M4, exactly zero for genesis, and no listing for genesis in the catalog.  Support for the gen 4 and earlier isn't going away.

Skankwear, go to daz.  Something real people would wear and not have to worry about being arrested, don't look at daz, there isn't much. Daz turned their collective backs on a lot of us, now we turn our backs to daz.  I will probably make two more purchases this afternoon, then I will have everything in the daz store that I would want from them.  Landscapes, not clothing.

Doric.

How did Daz turn their backs on Poser users? By Getting off their asses trying to develop some new tech while SM wasnt interested and was quite happy with minor updates to their app each year relying on V4/M4? V4 is over 6 years old for crying out loud. Time for a change. Genesis is a marvel. We all want better tech and improvements but as soon as it threatens your comfort zone its a big issue because your app of choice doesn't support it properly? What has SM done to improve figures? Release WM capabilities so they can recycle their old figures? At least Daz is attempting to get Genesis to work in Poser something they don't have to do. And if Daz was soo worried about loosing the Poser customer base, they would still push V4 content. I use Both Apps, Poser for some, and Daz for Genesis. Stop with this app loyalty shit. It's downright stupid.

Why some keep bringing up the  same tired stale useless "old technology" is beyond me.  My truck is now nine years old, and I have no immediate plan to drop it for the next ballyhoo job of any manufacturer.  It has less than thirty thousand miles on it, I'll be driving it for a long time to come, it gets me there and brings me home.  It ain't no status symbol.

Genesis is a marvel, like the tube sock of years ago.  "One size fits all"  What they forgot was "One size fits all poorly".

In my opinion, and for what that's worth, there's a reason DS had a price that was only twenty dollars less than Poser and now it's free.  It's called bailing the daz butt out while they still had a company left to bail out.  A techinical success does not automatically equate to a financial success.  Most of my female figures are going to have on at least knee length dresses, dynamic cloth, Poser compatible.  What do I care if the bends I'll never see aren't perfect? 

I stilll use my old Starrett #436P micrometers that I bought in 1967.  I hear a lot of guys saying "But the digitals are so much better."  What they mean is they never learned to read a micrometer and with digital, they don't have to.  They only have to replace them every five years.  Genesis vs V4, same argument.

Doric.

PrecisionXXX wrote;

Quote - Why some keep bringing up the  same tired stale useless "old technology" is beyond me.  My truck is now nine years old, and I have no immediate plan to drop it for the next ballyhoo job of any manufacturer.  It has less than thirty thousand miles on it, I'll be driving it for a long time to come, it gets me there and brings me home.  It ain't no status symbol.

That's like saying you don't upgrade your software because the old software still works. I take it you're still using Poser 4?

Coldrake

Coldrake

Hmm.  Well, it hasn't been all that long, I got PP2012 on the pre-release, so it wasn't that bad.  But with a little, "look what discount you can get if you have both of these," whicn at the time I was running P7, then found nicely discounted P8 and Pro 2010, which I bought just to get the heavier discount on 2012.  All of which saying I was pretty happy with P7 and didn't really have the inclination to go to a higher version at the time.  But, my normal is to not upgrade as soon as something is released, usually a year, maybe two, I ran P5 for quite a few years, P7 was out when I got P6.

But, in other softwares, Serif Photo Plus 10, Page Plus X-2, Draw Plus 8, all of which I know are old, but the newer versions went too much like a certain company that did windows would have done.  Which is, "9999 functions, 9997 that you will never need, and we hid the other two."  Wings, I haven't checked for updates for maybe a year, I'm two versions behind on TurboCad, and I don't see where they're offering me anything that I can't live without.  Gimp, haven't checked that for a while either.  I Have PS essentials, but after it messed up one computer enough I had to reformat, I'm not putting it in another one.  Even if it was free.

If I see no personal gain, advantage or what have you, then it's a no sale until there is an advantage to me.  Then maybe.  Sometimes not.

Doric.

Quote - > Quote - Most don't use Daz cause they are too lazy to learn the interface. I did and I find it better than Posers. Even if an app is free, if the interface is intimidating, most will give it a pass. Most of these users are hobbiest, it took them long enough to learn Poser, and don't feel like learning another app, so they want it where they are comfortable in.

There are many of us who took one look at that horrendous interface and bought Poser.

It has absolutely nothing to do with laziness.  It's about a gawd awful GUI.  With NO documentation.

I'm going blind because of an illness.  I'm not going to allow that DAZ interface to hurry the process.

 

 

 

My point exactly. The default interface is disgusting:) Howerver as a Poser user I found the City Limits layout under workspace much easier to get used to.

Quote - > Quote - > Quote -  

A quick check of the first page of PoserWorld clothing listing, 18 items for non daz figures, including Anastasia, Antonia, Tyler, Miki4, Kez, and fewer than ten for the daz figures, zero for genesis.   Dynamic for some, that Poser can use. That's only one page, go further and you'll find far more v4-m4, even v3-m3. 

Some for K4, the PT's, some for V4, M4, exactly zero for genesis, and no listing for genesis in the catalog.  Support for the gen 4 and earlier isn't going away.

Skankwear, go to daz.  Something real people would wear and not have to worry about being arrested, don't look at daz, there isn't much. Daz turned their collective backs on a lot of us, now we turn our backs to daz.  I will probably make two more purchases this afternoon, then I will have everything in the daz store that I would want from them.  Landscapes, not clothing.

Doric.

How did Daz turn their backs on Poser users? By Getting off their asses trying to develop some new tech while SM wasnt interested and was quite happy with minor updates to their app each year relying on V4/M4? V4 is over 6 years old for crying out loud. Time for a change. Genesis is a marvel. We all want better tech and improvements but as soon as it threatens your comfort zone its a big issue because your app of choice doesn't support it properly? What has SM done to improve figures? Release WM capabilities so they can recycle their old figures? At least Daz is attempting to get Genesis to work in Poser something they don't have to do. And if Daz was soo worried about loosing the Poser customer base, they would still push V4 content. I use Both Apps, Poser for some, and Daz for Genesis. Stop with this app loyalty shit. It's downright stupid.

Why some keep bringing up the  same tired stale useless "old technology" is beyond me.  My truck is now nine years old, and I have no immediate plan to drop it for the next ballyhoo job of any manufacturer.  It has less than thirty thousand miles on it, I'll be driving it for a long time to come, it gets me there and brings me home.  It ain't no status symbol.

Genesis is a marvel, like the tube sock of years ago.  "One size fits all"  What they forgot was "One size fits all poorly".

In my opinion, and for what that's worth, there's a reason DS had a price that was only twenty dollars less than Poser and now it's free.  It's called bailing the daz butt out while they still had a company left to bail out.  A techinical success does not automatically equate to a financial success.  Most of my female figures are going to have on at least knee length dresses, dynamic cloth, Poser compatible.  What do I care if the bends I'll never see aren't perfect? 

I stilll use my old Starrett #436P micrometers that I bought in 1967.  I hear a lot of guys saying "But the digitals are so much better."  What they mean is they never learned to read a micrometer and with digital, they don't have to.  They only have to replace them every five years.  Genesis vs V4, same argument.

Doric.

Umm, Daz can afford to give its app away for free, because it makes its money from content. All their previous versions before was free. You can't give something away for free and then expect people to pay a heavy price for it. So its logical why people didn't buy it. And it did not hurt them financially at all. Can Poser do that? Nooo. Where will they get their money from? Certainly not from content lol. Poser's only income comes from its app and content sales for its extinct figures, which isn't much. How many people buy the Poser app on a regular basis as apposed to content? See the difference in financial gain?

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - Most don't use Daz cause they are too lazy to learn the interface. I did and I find it better than Posers. Even if an app is free, if the interface is intimidating, most will give it a pass. Most of these users are hobbiest, it took them long enough to learn Poser, and don't feel like learning another app, so they want it where they are comfortable in.

There are many of us who took one look at that horrendous interface and bought Poser.

It has absolutely nothing to do with laziness.  It's about a gawd awful GUI.  With NO documentation.

I'm going blind because of an illness.  I'm not going to allow that DAZ interface to hurry the process.

 

 

 

My point exactly. The default interface is disgusting:) Howerver as a Poser user I found the City Limits layout under workspace much easier to get used to.

Here's just a hint, Zev.....you might want to take the link to your store out of your posts before you go around calling your potential customers lazy and insult them in an open forum.  :-)

You're right Glitterati3D. Maybe lazy was the wrong word to use. How about "do not have the patience"? If I offended anybody that was not my intention. I was in that situation and I was lazy to learn it, maybe thats why I used that word.

Most people don't use Daz Studio because someone told them that it only works when they wear blue skivvies, and they are philosophically opposed to wearing blue underwear.

God, who the hell knows why "most" people do anything?

I don't use DS because I can't get good renders out of it, and Luxrender is way, way too slow.

I mean, I hate the interface and I don't get the hollywood blvd street city light thingie settings or whatever at all. They make no sense. But if it rendered like Firefly in a similar amount of time, was fully documented in a downloadable PDF, and was relatively stable -- I'd use it.

Well the latest version is very stable, however it still renders way below firefly in terms of quality and time. I am yet to get a render out of Daz that can match my Poser renders lol.

Quote - You're right. Maybe lazy was the wrong word to use. How about "do not have the patience"? If I offended anybody that was not my intention. I was in that situation and I was lazy to learn it, maybe thats why I used that word.

On a personal level, I find that you come into this forum, ask for help and advice to create your marketable product and then spend a weekend insulting everyone here to be demonstrative.

I could start lots of statements with "All DAZ vendors..." but I don't as I think such generalizations lead to nothing good.

I started with DS2, PAID FOR DS3A and bought Poser 2012 when DS4 was released.  There was a reason.  And, to assume that I am lazy and/or impatient would be completely and utterly STUPID. 

How does a lazy and impatient person learn a whole new product when they switch from DS to Poser? 

You do see just how insulting and just plain stupid such a comment is, correct?

Quote - If history serves on their figure releases, I really wouldn't hold my breath on that one. The Poser group is a tiny group in Smith Micro, which business is currently in providing mobile video solutions as their main line of business. Getting resources to fund a comprehensive figure system in a hobbyist app when they're focused on streaming videos to smart phones and other video devices is highly doubtful.

Except that SM purchased Poser and E-Frontier's other software; they were unlikely cash cows, and and I doubt SM bought them to simply neglect them....

To answer the original question, because there is a market still for the items.

It's a bit like asking why doesn't everyone use computers to make art instead of a pencil.

If they are happy using the programs and content for a certain character, then who is right to say that they shouldn't because something new has come along.

All the best.

LROG

I'm not lazy..... I'm not impatient either...... but give me one good reason why I should settle for an inferior rendering engine when rendering for images for printing? Next problem is import into Vue.... while poser to vue works seamlessly with one click, DS to Vue is a nightmare. Next thing..... support, don't even get me started on that one, DAZ support is terrible, while SM support goes through great lengths to solve a problem.

I've got no problem with the DS interface and some of the features are very good, but to set up the same scene from start to render in both DS and Poser, is going to take quite a lot long longer in DS. DS makes you go through many unnecessary hoops and clicks of the mouse. When doing 'pro' work time is money and in the end using DS cost more money for a project because it takes more time to get the same done, but the end result is inferior to what Poser produces in a lot less time. I'm not even taking into account that DS crashes a lot more then Poser does and with every crash time is lost again. Compared to DS, Poser is rock solid.

I guess that's the main reason why Genesis is very unatractive to me..... it's made for the wrong application and to use Genesis would mean I need to spent even more time on projects, so to still make the same revenue, I would need to charge more. I guess that thought never occured to DAZ at all. They're often making a big deal about trying to break into the pro market, never realising that DS is one of the most time consuming applications there is...... but so is Bryce compared to others, as well as Carrara. The only effecient one is Hexagon, that one can get things done quickly, but crashes so often that it's still more time consuming.

DAZ thinks we've got all the time in the world and one crash more or less doesn't matter. The Genesis concept may be brilliant and I'd love to use it, but the application it's for is far from perfect and using it in Poser is even less perfect and very time consuming..... if they want to win me over, create Genesis 2 working natively in Poser. And don't start the whole technology discussion again, we all know that Poser can handle it, DAZ just needs to get back into using Poser again....... that may be the biggest problem.

Quote - I don't use DS because I can't get good renders out of it, and Luxrender is way, way too slow.

Haven't tried Lux yet... I will certainly give it a go once Paulo has Reality for Poser done.

But in principle this is also my position on DS.

I don't object to having to use DS4.5 as a content preparation utility, at present.

(Although havng to put on those skivvies is a real drag...)

But I'm not interested in using it for anything more than that... for me, Poser is currently just so much better for rendering in... and it's not just that Poser is all I know... for one thing, it's Poser that Bagginsbill makes materials for ;)

...and of course, I think it's perfectly understandable that most folk who are first and foremost Poser users will have no desire to go anywhere near DS4.5.

So ultimately, to further answer the OP, the whole workflow for Genesis needs to be within Poser, for Genesis to really get serious uptake from Poser users, I would think.

Look, I already apologised. For the record I said MOST hobbiest users, NOT ALL users. Hobbiest, not experienced users, but hobbiests. You guys are not hobbiest, you are experienced users, so my comment did not apply to you. I would understand If a hobbiest  or newbie directed a comment at me, but not from someone who has been around for years who has extensive knowledge on these apps. But I will apologise again. It was a wrong comment to make. Can we move on now?

Quote -
No, more like Dell doesn't manufacture CPUs, so how many computers would they sell if they were still loading computers with x86 486 chips they still had lying around instead of the Intel 64-bit chips people want?

If you look thru the signatures on here where people list what their computer specs are, many of them are I7 stuff.  Are you running An I7? Lots of people think that an I7 is the best there is, and I7s are what they happen to have laying around... I7s were first released in 2008...... Yes they are a little faster, but its the same 5 year old design.... If you want new and shiny, an I7 isn't it. New and shiny from Intel is an E7-4870 LGA1567 10 core Xeon. And I'll bet no one here is running those yet.... If your an AMD fan, it would be a 16 core Opteron setup. (which ironically is cheaper to build than a high end I7)

Your analogy doesn't go along the same lines as mine did, but you did prove a point and probably didnt realize it...

People want what they think is the best...

Genesis is not the best, but it is far more affordable than other alternatives to do similar things. Just like the I7s are cheap compared to a top end Xeon.

If Genesis was some ground breaking technology, it would be in everything already...

But it isn't, for a good reason. And that reason has nothing to do with what it can do, or even how many people want it. It is a business decision not to support it because it is proprietary.

People here are quick to say that SM should support it, that they can't afford not to.

Well, obviously that can afford not to, because they have not. And no one else has supported it either...

Quote - Umm, Daz can afford to give its app away for free, because it makes its money from content. All their previous versions before was free.

Sorry, but I paid for ds3a, like give them money.  4 came out, then they tried to sell 4.5, and it doesn't take a genius to figure that if 4.5 didn't sell, gene was DOA.  OR, in simple terms, they give ds4.5 as a freebie to keep gene from disappearing.  Without 4.5, most of the features that you see touted for gene aren't available.  With the ds4.5 documentation (Bwahahahahaha!) they still aren't available.  Dson doc?  I have no idea and no inclination to look to see if they managed to put a couple of postits up somewhere. 

The vendors will continue to support V4 and older as long as it sells.  With the daz record of bug fixes for ds, it's going to sell for a long time to come.

Doric.

Quote - > Quote - Umm, Daz can afford to give its app away for free, because it makes its money from content. All their previous versions before was free.

Sorry, but I paid for ds3a, like give them money.  4 came out, then they tried to sell 4.5, and it doesn't take a genius to figure that if 4.5 didn't sell, gene was DOA.  OR, in simple terms, they give ds4.5 as a freebie to keep gene from disappearing.  Without 4.5, most of the features that you see touted for gene aren't available.  With the ds4.5 documentation (Bwahahahahaha!) they still aren't available.  Dson doc?  I have no idea and no inclination to look to see if they managed to put a couple of postits up somewhere. 

The vendors will continue to support V4 and older as long as it sells.  With the daz record of bug fixes for ds, it's going to sell for a long time to come.

Doric.

I won't argue with you there. V4 will sell for a long time as long as there is demand for its content. Look how long the Playstation2 lasted. Sony only stopped manufacturing it last year I think after being around for 13 years. It has the biggest userbase in history. V4 is the same in terms of figures, so there is lots of life left.

Quote - There are many of us who took one look at that horrendous interface and bought Poser.

........

LOL! :lol:

Actually I've never even seen the DS4 interface, I took one look at Genesis and bought Poser!

I have to say though that I really preferred the DS 1-3 interface over Poser. There are a lot of things in the Poser interface that make me start shouting loudly, but the end result is definitely worth it.

I still use DS 2.3 to set up some figures for use in Vue and it is just so wonderfully simple to deal with. Makes a nice relief from ranting at Poser's Material Room sometimes. :)

ETA: I bought DS3 and then discovered that the shader system had changed so my shaders that were set up in DS2 specifically for transfer for Vue wouldn't work, therefore DS3 was of no use to me. I used it for a grand total of two renders just because I'd paid for it and then never touched it again. Hey ho.

Quote - > Quote - There are many of us who took one look at that horrendous interface and bought Poser.

........

LOL! :lol:

Actually I've never even seen the DS4 interface, I took one look at Genesis and bought Poser!

I have to say though that I really preferred the DS 1-3 interface over Poser. There are a lot of things in the Poser interface that make me start shouting loudly, but the end result is definitely worth it.

I still use DS 2.3 to set up some figures for use in Vue and it is just so wonderfully simple to deal with. Makes a nice relief from ranting at Poser's Material Room sometimes. :)

 

ROFL, well, yeah, there's the Grey Blob, too.  My issue was that it was clear all the characters shared the same DNA - couldn't tell the difference from a man/woman/child with morphs and/or textures. 

The material room in Poser just makes more sense to me.  While the DS3A material settings were less involved, so were the resultant materials.  Improper tiling, terrible stretching, etc.  Material settings do take more effort in Poser, but it shows.

Quote - > Quote -

No, more like Dell doesn't manufacture CPUs, so how many computers would they sell if they were still loading computers with x86 486 chips they still had lying around instead of the Intel 64-bit chips people want?

If you look thru the signatures on here where people list what their computer specs are, many of them are I7 stuff.  Are you running An I7? Lots of people think that an I7 is the best there is, and I7s are what they happen to have laying around... I7s were first released in 2008...... Yes they are a little faster, but its the same 5 year old design.... If you want new and shiny, an I7 isn't it. New and shiny from Intel is an E7-4870 LGA1567 10 core Xeon. And I'll bet no one here is running those yet.... If your an AMD fan, it would be a 16 core Opteron setup. (which ironically is cheaper to build than a high end I7)

Your analogy doesn't go along the same lines as mine did, but you did prove a point and probably didnt realize it...

People want what they think is the best...

No, people won't buy tech that won't allow them do keep up. The content provided with the Poser is old or horrible looking. Certain macbooks still work well, however, they can't be upgraded to the latest operating system. You'd be hard press to get someone to pay for something that they know won't work with things in the future. Or people won't buy a cellphone with just a keypad to dial numbers when they know they want to text.

Quote - Genesis is not the best, but it is far more affordable than other alternatives to do similar things. Just like the I7s are cheap compared to a top end Xeon.

If Genesis was some ground breaking technology, it would be in everything already...

Well it did win an award. ;)

However, I think DAZ jumped the shark and should have been working on products to get it into high end apps than spending the last 1 1/2 years of trying to get it into Poser when smith micro didn't want it. That was their mistake because they could have covered some serious ground rather than mess with that horrid CR2 exporter. However, with this specification, it could be easier to work on plugins for other apps, especially if it doesn't work out with Poser.

Quote - But it isn't, for a good reason. And that reason has nothing to do with what it can do, or even how many people want it. It is a business decision not to support it because it is proprietary.

 

It's about as proprietary as SM stuff... you know like charging DAZ to add their characters to faceroom or is the reason why the files daz does read are the ones that don't have to pay licensing fees for. So I think you got that wrong... at least DAZ did go to SM with the spec and didn't charge them and then published it publicly... so anyone can read the text files and implement it... doesn't sound proprietary to me.

Quote - People here are quick to say that SM should support it, that they can't afford not to.

Well, obviously that can afford not to, because they have not. And no one else has supported it either...

Well other generally if you're using higher end apps, you can usually make your own characters and content. ;) However, the initial thing they never followed up was to have it as a way to reduce costs for smaller businesses so they don't hire expensive contractors or artists to do the work. But I think they really wasted a lot of time on exporters and importers when they could have really marketed Genesis in this manner.

Quote - It's about as proprietary as SM stuff...

You have me confused.

The file formats in use in Poser are opensource for the most part. Anyone with a text editor can modify them, and anyone can write a program to use most of them. Many of the file formats were released to opensource by large companies. Autodesk, Adobe, Microsoft, etc. No one owns the rights to the formats.

Genesis is embedded in a trademarked file format. You can't just write a program to use it.

Ask anyone that tried to do and FBX import/export about that. It took years for Autodesk to relax the grip on that. Blender.org was denied use of FBX for years, and that is a free program that is all opensource.

Maybe you don't understand how licensing works on trademarked stuff. Dunno...

Quote - The material room in Poser just makes more sense to me.  While the DS3A material settings were less involved, so were the resultant materials.  Improper tiling, terrible stretching, etc.  Material settings do take more effort in Poser, but it shows.

Oh yes, don't get me wrong, the Poser Material room is a great tool and I'm constantly impressed with what even my feeble understanding of how it all works manages to produce! :)

It's just that (to me, anyway) there are some obvious simple features missing that I needed get via extra scripts. I can't understand why some of things aren't just standard - not just the Material Room but other parts of the interface as well. But that's just how it is - and it's not desperate, just annoying sometimes. I certainly don't regret moving to Poser. Poor old Vue has been sadly neglected this last year! LOL

Quote - > Quote - The material room in Poser just makes more sense to me.  While the DS3A material settings were less involved, so were the resultant materials.  Improper tiling, terrible stretching, etc.  Material settings do take more effort in Poser, but it shows.

Oh yes, don't get me wrong, the Poser Material room is a great tool and I'm constantly impressed with what even my feeble understanding of how it all works manages to produce! :)

It's just that (to me, anyway) there are some obvious simple features missing that I needed get via extra scripts. I can't understand why some of things aren't just standard - not just the Material Room but other parts of the interface as well. But that's just how it is - and it's not desperate, just annoying sometimes. I certainly don't regret moving to Poser. Poor old Vue has been sadly neglected this last year! LOL

 

I am amazed at some of the stuff folks like ParrotDolphin, Fabiana and Bagginsbill do with the material room in Poser.  Me, not so much as I have never spent enought time to use it well.  One day, I'll even manage to wrap my head around how to do displacement well in there. 

I certainly didn't mean to infer that you meant anything negative.  Just agreeing that the Poser material room is superior, if one learns to use it like the artists above.

"I have to say though that I really preferred the DS 1-3 interface over Poser"

Studio 4's interface can be made to look very similar to the previous versions, you just have to switch to the Darkside style and customize the interface a little (which you can do to great extent, including adding Poser-like "rooms").

"ROFL, well, yeah, there's the Grey Blob, too.  My issue was that it was clear all the characters shared the same DNA - couldn't tell the difference from a man/woman/child with morphs and/or textures. "

"The gray blob", "The gray golum": what people who don't bother to turn enough morph dials call Genesis.

After reading the whole thread there is one argument about V4, that hasn't been mentioned, and that is the economic aspect. What happened to V4 is a rather new economic feature called "lock-in".

To explain what "lock-in" means I rather give an example: Many years ago when the first VCR-systems came on the market there were several formats: VHF, BETAMAX and the lesser known VIDEO2000 (an european system) These formats were competing on the market but in the end VHF became the standard and BETAMAX and video2000 disappeared. Not because VHF was the better of the three, but because there were more movies for VHF on the market. In fact VHF was the most crappy system.

 A similar example is the QWERTY-keyboard, what is in fact the worst solution for a keyboard layout.

I don't want to say that V4 is the worst model (I won't get into that discussion :)  ) but if you compair V4 with VHF and the content made for V4 with the amount of VHF-movies you will see what I mean.

What we see now is that there is a need for a new "standard" , like dvd has replaced VHF because of the new technologies available. Unless SM and DAZ won't try to cooperate in making a new standard for the poser(!)market and insist on making their own, people will stay with the old standard and will there still be demand for V4-content.

For those are more interested in "lock-in" or think I'm talking crap:

http://www.utdallas.edu/~liebowit/paths.html

best regards,

Bopper.

Quote - I am amazed at some of the stuff folks like ParrotDolphin, Fabiana and Bagginsbill do with the material room in Poser.  Me, not so much as I have never spent enought time to use it well.  One day, I'll even manage to wrap my head around how to do displacement well in there. 

I certainly didn't mean to infer that you meant anything negative.  Just agreeing that the Poser material room is superior, if one learns to use it like the artists above.

Too right! I love ParrotDolphin's Poser materials - and the way they're set up makes a great start for getting in there and messing about with them to make anything else I need.... rather than me trying to start from scratch which usually ends in chaos! ;)

Of course one of the extra reasons for moving to Poser was the better import to Vue, especially now that the Material room settings are supposed to be carried over. And have I ever actually tried this? Nope. Far too much fun playing with Firefly renders! :laugh:

I started with Poser and stayed with Poser because of how well it integrated with Vue.

I was around when DS first came on the scene as an alpha. I bought DS3A and learned my way around it. I've also tried DS4 and Genesis and was not too lazy to find out how it worked either.

However, I stay with Poser because it is well documented so it is easier for me to learn how to do things. I find the rendering and materials much better in Poser and I adore dynamic clothing and the freedom the cloth room gives to make clothing items easily for any character.

Having a hybrid figure is not important to me as I have plenty of unique characters already. The bending is also not that important as I very seldom render naked people. If I do have the urge then there are Poser weight mapped characters. My main focus is females and toons. Poser gives me all I want.

Gensis is ugly out of the box. The Poser characters may also be ugly out of the box but there are so many possibilites with all of them. Blackheared has proven that with Anastasia and Tyler.

I am happy with V4 and will continue to support V4 for as long as vendors produce stuff for it. Just because there is a new kid on the block doesn't mean everything else has to stop. People should use what they want to use and create what they want to create and not feel pressurised into things because of what others think and do.

I am sorry to hear of your illness!

Quote - > Quote - Most don't use Daz cause they are too lazy to learn the interface. I did and I find it better than Posers. Even if an app is free, if the interface is intimidating, most will give it a pass. Most of these users are hobbiest, it took them long enough to learn Poser, and don't feel like learning another app, so they want it where they are comfortable in.

There are many of us who took one look at that horrendous interface and bought Poser.

It has absolutely nothing to do with laziness.  It's about a gawd awful GUI.  With NO documentation.

I'm going blind because of an illness.  I'm not going to allow that DAZ interface to hurry the process.

 

 

 

Moriador! That was my reason exactly! :-) I played with it for awhile. It kept crashing. Finally a more stable version 4 came out. I played. I corresponded with the Daz "pros" who claimed that Daz could match PoserPro2012 with SSS. Never saw it. In the real world-if you back light ears-they show red "glow". Poser can do that- Daz can't. Ultimately-it was render quality.

The lighting philosophy (Hollywood Blvd Street Light Thingie) is also quite counter intuitive for those who have been users of other programs (Lightwave, Carrara, Poser, etc).

But mainly it was the Blue Underwear issue that I could not work around

Quote - Most people don't use Daz Studio because someone told them that it only works when they wear blue skivvies, and they are philosophically opposed to wearing blue underwear.

God, who the hell knows why "most" people do anything?

I don't use DS because I can't get good renders out of it, and Luxrender is way, way too slow.

I mean, I hate the interface and I don't get the hollywood blvd street city light thingie settings or whatever at all. They make no sense. But if it rendered like Firefly in a similar amount of time, was fully documented in a downloadable PDF, and was relatively stable -- I'd use it.

Quote - I am sorry to hear of your illness!

Quote - > Quote - Most don't use Daz cause they are too lazy to learn the interface. I did and I find it better than Posers. Even if an app is free, if the interface is intimidating, most will give it a pass. Most of these users are hobbiest, it took them long enough to learn Poser, and don't feel like learning another app, so they want it where they are comfortable in.

There are many of us who took one look at that horrendous interface and bought Poser.

It has absolutely nothing to do with laziness.  It's about a gawd awful GUI.  With NO documentation.

I'm going blind because of an illness.  I'm not going to allow that DAZ interface to hurry the process.

 

 

 

Thank you, Eric.

Some computer programs and web pages hurt my eyes like someone is shining a flashlight directly into them.  I've managed to find some web page solutions, but some programs simply aren't useable for me anymore.  After a few minutes, the pain is excruiating.