Anyhow, this issue is extremely illogical and frustrating, and I am hoping somebody here can help.

Plain and simple, my problem is that I cannot get a skirt to follow the left and right thighs of Victoria 3. I have selected the entire skirt area as the Hip group, but still the skirt does not follow the left and right thighs. As you can see in the screenshot, the skirt perfectly follows the left and right buttocks. In fact, when I remove the buttocks, the skirt follows the left and right thighs, but the alignment of the skirt gets distorted due to the absence of the buttock bones.

Nobody seems to have an explanation for how this is done. If anyone can help, it would be more than appreciated.

It seems some of the sellers on Renderosity are reluctant to help, probably afraid of giving away "trade secrets".

This kind of attitude isn't going to get you very far.

Several of us spent a great deal of time explaining this to you.  Please go back to your original thread and read it carefully, then invest in some of the tutorials.

The information was shared with you.  The resources were shared with you.  Your questions were very patiently answered.

It is no trade secret, a child can deform the parent but not the grand parent. You'll hear me say that in the first joint parameter video.

The hierarchy of the V3 legs is:-

hip > buttocks > thighs

Bending the thighs affects the buttocks it will never affect the hip unless you have Poser 9/Pro 2012 when you can add those elements into the deformation.

I edited the above post several times in order to get it accurate and concise. Sorry if you read an earlier draft and were confused.

Sorry for flying off the handles there. I was extremely frustrated at the time I wrote the post, also because of more private matters.

I think I've done all the operations in the information provided here and in the previous thread. I'm at a point where I simply don't know what else I could be missing.

It's as simple as this:

I load the V3 figure, load the mock dress geometry I made in 3DS Max, take it to the setup room and apply the V3 skeleton to it. I then select the hip group and add all of the polygons from the skirt to it like it says in the video. I go back to the Pose room and I conform the dress to the V3 figure. When I move the thighs, the skirt does not move at all, but responds when I move the buttocks. This is where I am completely lost.

Quote - It is no trade secret, a child can deform the parent but not the grand parent. You'll hear me say that in the first joint parameter video.

The hierarchy of the V3 legs is:-

hip > buttocks > thighs

Bending the thighs affects the buttocks it will never affect the hip unless you have Poser 9/Pro 2012 when you can add those elements into the deformation.

I figured as much, but the problem is that when I bend the thigh of V3, the buttock doesn't follow. And yet everybody from Mytilus to a few other tutorials has told me to add all the polygons of the skirt to the Hip group.

Mytilus and Pretty3D have their skirts setup this way. They have the entire skirt selected as one single Hip group, and with two bones for each thigh. When the V3 thigh is bent, twisted or moved side-to-side, the entire skirt follows.

I've tried to do everything the same way, but it still won't work. Even Mytilus himself can't figure out what my problem is.

Is there a possibility my Poser installation is bugged? I have Poser Pro 2012 64-bit.

Just clothify the skirt.

'Trying to make a conforming dress here, not a dynamic one. Although, I think 3DS Max does a better job at clothifying.

Nanette was referring to making the dress a hybrid, many of the good conforming dresses allow the option to clothify the skirt part, gives for more realism and solves many poke through issues..............Take a look at Daz Morphing Fantasy Dress, by no means a dynamic dress .

Which version of Poser are you using?

It is possible to add extra controls to the skirt. It is then possible to add extra code to the skirt CR2 to allow one body part joint (or morph), to be remotely controlled by another. This is generally referred to as "ERC" control. It is very possible it is this that is being employed by those other artists.

The best explanation of how it works and how to set it up that I know of is at:-
http://www.nerd3d.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=8

Then as mentioned in other posts is the option to go the hybrid route. This is where the clothing is part conforming and part dynamic.

Suggest at this point you just put to one side your difficulty in understanding that with a leg containing a buttock that the thigh will not deform the hip. Then decide which of the above two methods you would like to pursue.

I, and I'm sure others, will be happy to help you.

Then why can't someone who knows and for it is childs play take Darchind's model and make the correction? Especially as all and everyone always are so eager to answer questions from stark beginners or like to pontificate over advanced stuff, so advanced that nobody understands it.

But with this useful intermediate stuff there is always problem. Too sad as I and I am sure many others would have liked to see the solution to this.

I think people are only trying to help, Vintorix, from reading the post from Glitterati it would appear that this is a continuation of a previous thread. I've never made a conformer personally or I'd quite happily offer to help, I've only made dynamics, but i have used many hybrid dresses with a clothified, hip/skirt/dress whatever the creator has decided to call it. Maybe you are right, the OP should allow someone else to "fix" the problem..

"I've never made a conformer personally or I'd quite happily offer to help"

I am sure you would Saxon3d. But there are many other who knows very well after all V3 has been around for a long time. I can't understand why someone just show the solution instead of talking endlessly. Its suppose to be only 4-5 rows of code!

Quote - Which version of Poser are you using?

It is possible to add extra controls to the skirt. It is then possible to add extra code to the skirt CR2 to allow one body part joint (or morph), to be remotely controlled by another. This is generally referred to as "ERC" control. It is very possible it is this that is being employed by those other artists.

The best explanation of how it works and how to set it up that I know of is at:-
http://www.nerd3d.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=8

Then as mentioned in other posts is the option to go the hybrid route. This is where the clothing is part conforming and part dynamic.

Suggest at this point you just put to one side your difficulty in understanding that with a leg containing a buttock that the thigh will not deform the hip. Then decide which of the above two methods you would like to pursue.

I, and I'm sure others, will be happy to help you.

The skirt on this model is a perfect example of what I am saying.

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/dirty-diana-character-outfit-/45745

This is done completely different than what you have been suggesting both here and your tutorials, and I honestly can't understand how it's done. Mytilus took the polygons of the entire skirt and made part of one single Hip group while keeping the Hips > Buttocks > Thighs bones hierarchy in place. And yet, the skirt perfectly follows thigh and buttock movements.

Now, the logical solution would be to the contact the author, whom I know and have talked to. But not even he understands what's wrong on my end.

In an experiment last night, I copied over the bone structure and groups from one of his skirt models and put it over mine, which I used in the screenshot in the initial post of this thread. Remarkably, it now works perfectly fine as intended. What has me befuddled is that when I tried to do it on my own, I was so certain that I performed the same operations, yet it did not work for me. It only works when I copy over his bone structure and groups.

I'm unclear how, with no comprehension of how it is done, you are so sure that the method differs from those offered above.

Without seeing the files for that particular skirt I can not tell you which method or methods that artist has used.

Can the skirt model contain hip, buttock and thigh bones? Yes certainly, does not mean that any geometry is assigned to them. They'll be there to aid the control, which then depends on how it has all been set up.

So again, may I please ask, what version of Poser are you using and how best may I help you?

I suppose I could send you a similar file if you want to have a look at it. I am using Poser Pro 2012 64-bit.

Sure.

pcooke@philc.net

I also want a look at it if its possible. You can reach me via sitemail.-

Alright. Here's the file. Out of respect to the author, I did not include the textures, but just the base geometry. Once you have it installed, load the Victoria 3 base and then navigate to Figures > HF-Rebel Line and it should load just fine. Conform the dress to the Victoria 3 base and you'll see that it follows thigh movements just fine, despite the entire skirt area being defined as a single Hip group.

I've inspected the CR2 file and can make the following observations.

The hierarchy is indeed  hip > buttock > thigh but there is also a bone named internally as "rGhost", and externally as "Right Thigh Operator" which is a child of the hip. I believe that you had not made any mention of this previously.

The x,y and z rotation channels in the ghost are slaved to the x,y, and z rotation channels of the thigh.

The chain of command therefore goes as follows:-

Posing the V3 thigh will cause the dress thigh to move, (which does nothing to the dress). However it will cause the ghost thigh to move via the ERC code and the ghost thigh being a child of the dress hip causes that to move.

V3 thigh > dress thigh > ghost thigh > skirt

So it works using ERC code and additional bones, (body handles), much as I surmised in my earlier post.

It is an elegant solution but it is not the only solution. For example I've seen these set up using the thigh to control a morph.

I suggest that your next step is to try and understand the principles of what is going on rather than restricting yourself to this one solution which while it works well for this mini dress may not be the optimum for something full length.

Hope that helps.

The cr2 you posted has additional bones in it, set up for erc to make it follow grandchildren (the thighs). There is a third bone to move the entire bottom of it as well.

You don't have to have geometry assigned to a bone to use it just for erc. That type of erc has been in use for a long time.

Since you are using 2012, you can set up a lot of that right in the program with the dependency editor as well.

You should be able to rig that entirely in Poser. The only thing you will have to do outside of Poser is change the 2 geometry lines after you are done so they point to the original geometry file.

None of this is a trade secret, there basically aren't any trade secrets in Poser.

Load that cr2 into poser and look at the hierarchy, then look at how the dependencies are set up.

If this is something you are doing for yourself, you could even strip out what you don't need from that cr2 (morphs, etc) and change the geometry calls to use your dress.

There are a few other ways of rigging it as well.

One way is to make morphs for the thigh movement, another way is to weight map it.

I strongly recommend you remove the file, you basically gave it away to anyone that downloads it.

All the information needed is in the cr2 to rig one that way, that is all you should have posted.

Quote - I've inspected the CR2 file and can make the following observations.

The hierarchy is indeed  hip > buttock > thigh but there is also a bone named internally as "rGhost", and externally as "Right Thigh Operator" which is a child of the hip. I believe that you had not made any mention of this previously.

The x,y and z rotation channels in the ghost are slaved to the x,y, and z rotation channels of the thigh.

The chain of command therefore goes as follows:-

Posing the V3 thigh will cause the dress thigh to move, (which does nothing to the dress). However it will cause the ghost thigh to move via the ERC code and the ghost thigh being a child of the dress hip causes that to move.

V3 thigh > dress thigh > ghost thigh > skirt

So it works using ERC code and additional bones, (body handles), much as I surmised in my earlier post.

It is an elegant solution but it is not the only solution. For example I've seen these set up using the thigh to control a morph.

I suggest that your next step is to try and understand the principles of what is going on rather than restricting yourself to this one solution which while it works well for this mini dress may not be the optimum for something full length.

Hope that helps.

 

I'm not familiar with "ERC code" or what it even means. Would you mind elaborating?

I suppose my question is, how is this solution done?

I am aware there is more than one solution, the easiest probably being to create mesh morphs for the thighs. However, I like the solution that Mytilus is using, and I am hoping to better understand it.

If you could detail, in steps, how he did what he did to achieve this solution, I would be in your debt.

Quote - The cr2 you posted has additional bones in it, set up for erc to make it follow grandchildren (the thighs). There is a third bone to move the entire bottom of it as well.

You don't have to have geometry assigned to a bone to use it just for erc. That type of erc has been in use for a long time.

Since you are using 2012, you can set up a lot of that right in the program with the dependency editor as well.

You should be able to rig that entirely in Poser. The only thing you will have to do outside of Poser is change the 2 geometry lines after you are done so they point to the original geometry file.

None of this is a trade secret, there basically aren't any trade secrets in Poser.

Load that cr2 into poser and look at the hierarchy, then look at how the dependencies are set up.

If this is something you are doing for yourself, you could even strip out what you don't need from that cr2 (morphs, etc) and change the geometry calls to use your dress.

There are a few other ways of rigging it as well.

One way is to make morphs for the thigh movement, another way is to weight map it.

I strongly recommend you remove the file, you basically gave it away to anyone that downloads it.

All the information needed is in the cr2 to rig one that way, that is all you should have posted.

File removed. I made sure to not distribute it with the textures, though.

Quote - I'm not familiar with "ERC code" or what it even means. Would you mind elaborating?

I suppose my question is, how is this solution done?

Use the dependency editor, or go to Nerd3D's site and look at the example of manually adding it to a cr2.

You can set it up from within your version of Poser. Details are in the manual. However it will probably help if you know what is goimg on "under the hood. The best explanation of how it works and how to set it up manually that I know of is at:-
http://www.nerd3d.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=8

Quote - > Quote - I'm not familiar with "ERC code" or what it even means. Would you mind elaborating?

I suppose my question is, how is this solution done?

Use the dependency editor, or go to Nerd3D's site and look at the example of manually adding it to a cr2.

I'm going to assume you mean the Joint Parameters editor.

I found this nice reference, which I'm going to read in a bit. Others following this thread might be interested in it too:

http://www.contentparadise.com/sellers/cpstaff/sidecar/1584506970_Chapter%2013.pdf

"there basically aren't any trade secrets in Poser"

Well if it was it isn't any more! ;)

When I bethink how difficult it was for Darchind to come by this information and how Mytilus could not understand what was Darchind's problem and how rare it is (I examined about a dozen dress product at random and only one was correctly done) and that there are no detailed hand to hand tutorial or "How to get started" at all I think we can safely come to the conclusion that it was a rather lame attempt of one. And I have observed before that to get intermediate information from the forum its more like drawing out teeth than anything else. Only Phil is generous!

Thank god for Genesis and a bit of fresh air.

Joint Editor accessed from:
Poser menu Window > Joint Parameters.

Dependency Editor accessed from:
Click the arrow found to the right of any parameter dial > Select "Edit Dependencies"

Quote - Joint Editor accessed from:
Poser menu Window > Joint Parameters.

Dependency Editor accessed from:
Click the arrow found to the right of any parameter dial > Select "Edit Dependencies"

 

Ah, so that's where it is. Thanks.

Quote - "there basically aren't any trade secrets in Poser"

Well if it was it isn't any more! ;)

When I bethink how difficult it was for Darchind to come by this information and how Mytilus could not understand what was Darchind's problem and how rare it is (I examined about a dozen dress product at random and only one was correctly done) and that there are no detailed hand to hand tutorial or "How to get started" at all I think we can safely come to the conclusion that it was a rather lame attempt of one. And I have observed before that to get intermediate information from the forum its more like drawing out teeth than anything else. Only Phil is generous!

Thank god for Genesis and a bit of fresh air.

 

A lot of the people on here are pretty helpful, as I've found. It's just, they often speak with terminology that's alien to people who are trying to learn this stuff, lol. It is as you say, though, there really is nothing out there as far as tutorials to help people really absorb this information. A wise person once told me, the success of the student can only be the reflection of a successful teacher.

PhilC is one of those guys who doesn't throw the book at you and expect you to get it on your own. I like him :)