Hey guys, a customer who bought the "Lucy Zepp Young" product said that the kids don't resize in Poser 8, I told him that the resize is from the Stephanie4 "Proportion" morphs, so that he needs Stephanie4 to use Lucy.  He replied that he has it but the size isn't working.

If I remember correctly, Poser 8 started supporting different sizes?  Now I'm confused if it was Poser 8 or 9/Pro2012.  Can someone refresh me on this?  Does this customer need the latest service release for Poser8?

Thanks a lot for any help I can get!

...wolfie

For scaling to work properly you need at least Poser 9/ PP 2012 with SR2. (Newest is SR3.1 I think)

And even then it's a bit hit or miss depending on how the scaling zones are set up in the figure.

If you really want to go from a (realistic) preschooler to adult, you need to use the animateable joint centers instead.

Which are also a Poser 9/ PP 2012 only feature.

Quote - Hey guys, a customer who bought the "Lucy Zepp Young" product said that the kids don't resize in Poser 8, I told him that the resize is from the Stephanie4 "Proportion" morphs, so that he needs Stephanie4 to use Lucy.  He replied that he has it but the size isn't working.

If I remember correctly, Poser 8 started supporting different sizes?  Now I'm confused if it was Poser 8 or 9/Pro2012.  Can someone refresh me on this?  Does this customer need the latest service release for Poser8?

Thanks a lot for any help I can get!

...wolfie

The SP4 scaling morphs work fine in P8/PP2012 (I just tried it again with PP2012)

Your Lucy Zepp morphs/scaling works fine as well. They do resize as they should. Only possible cause I can think of is that the SP4 scaling morphs are not installed.

Simple resizing of the complete mesh is not the same as scaling limbs while maintaining properly working joints.

Prior to Poser 9/PP 2012 SR2 single axis scaling did not work properly. That's why it was fixed.*

And that's the kind of scaling you need to change a figure's proportions.

Anyway, you want to turn V4 into a proper preteen, you need to either re-rig her completely or need to adjust the animateable joint centers.

Quote - Simple resizing of the complete mesh is not the same as scaling limbs while maintaining properly working joints.

Prior to Poser 9/PP 2012 SR2 single axis scaling did not work properly. That's why it was fixed.*

And that's the kind of scaling you need to change a figure's proportions.

Anyway, you want to turn V4 into a proper preteen, you need to either re-rig her completely or need to adjust the animateable joint centers.

 

 

The SP4 scaling morphs work fine in P8/PP2010. I have used them since they were released. There are other scaling problems in P8, but the SP4 scaling is not one of them

The S4 scaling morphs work fine in Poser 8 as long as it's updated to the latest service release.   Could that be the problem?

Quote - Simple resizing of the complete mesh is not the same as scaling limbs while maintaining properly working joints.

Prior to Poser 9/PP 2012 SR2 single axis scaling did not work properly. That's why it was fixed.*

And that's the kind of scaling you need to change a figure's proportions.

Anyway, you want to turn V4 into a proper preteen, you need to either re-rig her completely or need to adjust the animateable joint centers.

 I'd like to thank everyone who replied here.  Though I do have to disagree with this quote... first, since two people are already saying the S4 proportion morphs work fine in Poser 8 (though the proportion morphs do scale certain body morphs as well), and second but most importantly saying that I need to create a whole new figure or re-rig V4.  S4 proportion morphs (especially "petite") scales the arms, torso, and legs differently then the whole body.  It also scales the whole body differently.  Scaling the body would make her smaller, same percentage height as the width and depth, while the proportion actually scales the character as "younger", in which the arms, legs, width/depth, and torso gets scaled differently, even the head slightly.

I've studied images of kids for years and have always scaled the different body parts in Daz Studio (even hands and feet) accordingly to what I learned, before S4 came out (I worked exclusively in DS since Poser didn't support scalings then).  Even now I still scale the head, feet, and hands along with S4's proportion.  I have recieved many critiques and learned from them, but more over have recieved so much encouragements about my work.  I was even known as "the V4 child king" (lol, as silly as that sounds, and not to praise myself, but it's true).

I still crituque my own work at times to be honest, but always refresh myself with differnt photos and came to the conslusions that children grow differently.   Re-rigging V4 or creating a different character, in my opinion, is pretty much useless, especially after this certain upcoming product that I might release after Lucy Zepp Adult is released.

Daz3D.com with it's Kid4 and Genesis-YoungTeen still don't come close to realism when it comes to child/teen morphs and I've had 5 people tell me that I should work for them to get it right lol.  Kid4 was a laugh, though they were cute "cartoon" type kids.  They did great for the body with the Genesis teens, but still have a long ways to go with the big cartoon looking heads (Boy teen not so much as the girl teen).

Again, thanks everyone, I'll update the customer with this info and hopefully we'll sort out this situation.

...wolfie

 

Supporting what others have said:

You can't have truly realistic child figures using V4's original mesh and rigging with scaling as your main ingredient. Sure, you can get good approximations. But, the proportions are going to be wrong and every kid is going to look earily similar.

Kids do grow differently. They grow chaotically! The body is pumping out "grow stuff" all over the place and most of it isn't evenly distributed. When compared to an adult, child proportions and body shapes are radically different. But, you can't simply "characturize" those sorts of things and come out with a realistic child figure if you're making morphs, either. It'll be immediately recongizable as a characture, like K4, and not a realistic child morph or rework of a mesh. We see kids every day, just like we see adults. We know what adults look like and we can spot the problems in renders of them anytime we care to look. Rendered kids are no different - You can spot the problems, right off the bat.

For most purposes, that's just fine. Really, it's not a big deal. But, for some purposes where you're really trying to push the realism, you have to get in there and adjust everything manually. Animated joint centers are a HUGE deal in being able to create all sorts of realistic body shapes and sizes, I can't wait to begin playing with those! But, meshwork/morphwork and some old-fashioned elbow grease is going to be very necessary to get those legacy meshes to deform in ways they were never meant to.

Mostly, I'm interested in the ability to truly morph a figure, much like has been done with DAZ's new figure line, which can now be imported into Poser. But, I want to create radical morphs, myself, and then use animating joints to tweak the rigging so that it is appropriate. Before, I could easily create the morphs by hand, but the rigggin? V4's rigging just isn't dynamic enough, in previous versions. Now, however, it certainly can be! (Within reason. It may be easier and more realistic to keep the mesh for ease of use and compatibility purposes, but construct an entirely new rig and weight mapped set for radically different figrues. I'll have to see how it works out.)

To be precise, I suppose.

But please point me to any child figure/morph (for both Poser and Daz Studio going from ages 5 to 20) and tell me I didn't come the closest to realism with Lucy Zepp http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/lucy-zepp-for-v4-s4-elite/97550 or Sabrina Blinker http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/sabrina-blinker-v4-elite-s4/83743

As far as I know, there are no characters or figure on the market (Renderosity, Daz3D, or others for Poser and DS) that looks more realistic then my last two characters (I only deal with Renderosity, I have nothing in any other marketplace).

The Genesis "Young Teens 5" is nice and cute but too "cartoonish", no one has attempted for realism with that figure (especially in the face), you can easily tell them apart from real kids.  And you can't "age" her down to 5 years old.  I'm considering doing that figure as just a teen, but need to know how to add my morphs into Genesis.

Besides, I didn't come here to start a childish war, I simply asked a technical Poser question but someone had to cut my work down and "correct" me .  Bad move.

...wolfie

There is no war.

A child skeleton is different from an adult skeleton and while scaling in Poser has gotten a lot more flexible, it can't beat actually moving joint centers around.

Look, Luke and Laura were standalone figures because they needed a different rig than Vicky and Mike.

And that's why we never got proper 4th gen teens. Too much work to do a standalone figure and no way to do it with just a bit of scaling here and there.

You want realistic Poser children ? Make them standalone like Luke/Laura or use the animateable joint centers like the Genesis teens do.

That, and a realistic body sculpt of course.

I know that your customers want easy solutions, but that's exactly why Genesis was made.

Michael 4 OTOH can indeed be just "scaled down" into a boy, as the skeleton proportions of a man are much closer to those of a child than those of a woman.

Of course you still need a lot of morphing and new JCMs, but the joint centers don't necessarily need to be moved.

I've considered Luke and Laura a few times but there's hardly a scratch support for hair and clothes, sales would suffer.  Also they're old figures with not much morphs, if Daz3D would've updated them (like people have asked time and again), and make them more popular, I'd have been happy doing them (but then they wouldn't share the same face morphs as V4, thus making it hard to do an age progress figure).

Doing it with V4/S4 with thousands of clothes/hair available, I've made shockingly over and above what I expected with my products, and had not one complaint about the products themselves.  Couldn't make M4 look like a kid, don't even know what "OTOH" is (and most likely hardly anyone else do either & clothes wouldn't fit), I don't do male characters anyways and don't like requiring special and/or extremely difficult products to use mine.

Re-rigging or creating a new figure will prove to be financial draining, you have to contact clothes vendors to make clothes for them and most of them don't like waisting time making clothes for an unpopular figure (such as Luke & Laura in the past).  Apparently what I'm doing far succeeds what I expected, end of discussion.

Thanks to everyone for answering my Poser technical question, very much apreciated.  Good bye.

...wolfie

Good for you if people buy your products.

But "Realism" doesn't care what is convenient for you or your customers.

It just "is".

If you really want to achieve it, you have to do whatever it takes.

Obviously you are more interrested in an easy sell.

Which is a pity, because the Poser world really could use some realistic children.

"Realism" ultimately would be nice, I do have to agree, but we only have what recources we have.  I do wish I had the time to learn how to re-rig V4 or create a new figure... and to make it popular... only a large marketplace like Renderosity, Daz3D or RuntimeDNA would be able to make it popular, not a simple member.  If one of those three marketplace contacted me and made me a deal, then it would be worth my time to go through, learn the things I need, and make it happen.

But for now, it just "is".  Right now, people are truly happy with what I came out with.

Man... I really don't want to be big headed or puff up myself, I'm really a gullible guy (my friends know how gullible I am).  I simply wanted to give the people what's not available in the marketplace... something unique that no one sees in the marketplace.  I really wish vendors would catch on to this "child/teen" thing, there's a market for them, I've seen it.

Poser... AND Daz Studio can use a real realistic child, I agree with that.  That's exactly what I want to see come though.  And that, my friend, is why I've started this "child/teen" thing, to maybe reach a marketplace and get them interested in making this happen.

I almost joined a contractor of a team who contacted me, but the team failed the contractor... sad deal, it would've been nice.

...wolfie

I apologize, jamminwolf. I didn't want to be rude.

I try so hard perfecting my figures that I often forget that a successful product must make compromises.

Given the limitations of V4's rigging and that your figures need to be able to re-use V4's clothing, you did great work.

And you definitely managed to give both figures a real personality.

Yes, let's hope we one day see realistic child mesh that works in Poser and Studio alike.

BTW, while re-rigging a figure definitely is not an easy task, using the adjustable joint centers is quite easy.

You simply unhide the yOffset, zOffset and xOffset dials and you can move that joint in any position you want. If you morphed the legs longer, you simply move the knee joints along the y-axis until they fit again. If you morphed the hip narrower, you move the buttock joints along the x-axis until they fit

Clothing will autofit (and autoscale) to the new joints in Poser once you enable it by ticking a few boxes.

This is of course Poser 9/PP-2012 only, so not for everybody.

Just saying, if you ever want to add this as an option to future figures, it's really not that hard.

Hey, friend, it's all good, apology accepted :)  And thanks for the complaiment of my girls! :) 

I had no idea that Poser had autoscale, now you have me curious of what to do to make that effect.  What boxes do you click?

Interesting moving joints via x,y,z offsets, never tried that before, gonna have a play at that!

...wolfie

Thanks. :-)

There are four new boxes under the "properties" tab of a figure's body actor in Poser 9/PP 2012:

Tic them and your cloth will follow your figures' scaling, morphing and the position of its joint centers, if you changed them with the offset dials. That's all. Re-safe your clothing item to the library, and the clothing will auto-adjust everytime you load them.

It can't create new morphs like Studio's autofit can for Genesis. You still need WardrobeWizard for that.

But everything else will go automatically.

Here I moved the center of the right collar-joint around with the x-Offset and Y-offset dials.

The t-shirt's collar joint center now follows that new position by itself.

JoePublic, thank you soooooooo much for showing me this feature, I had no idea what those boxes were for (and really didn't play around with them), wonderful feature!!  I did an image and thanked you for this... http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=2416088  I did have to edit the clothes a little 'cause of poke through, but that feature works like a charm!

...wolfie

Very glad I could help and many thanks for the props. :-)