This business is just a microcosm of the art industry at large I'm kinda minded to think of it like our high streets - all the good little shops are forced out by high rents/costs, been replaced by identikit clone chains and charity shops. With places like TV or camera shops, all that practical knowledge ends up being lost. Pay a visit to some chain computer shop and the "experts" skills are based on what crudware needs pushing that week and if they can't find on google you're screwed. After 9pm just reminds me of Bradburys story "The Pedestrian" :)

Quote - This business is just a microcosm of the art industry at large I'm kinda minded to think of it like our high streets - all the good little shops are forced out by high rents/costs, been replaced by identikit clone chains and charity shops. With places like TV or camera shops, all that practical knowledge ends up being lost. Pay a visit to some chain computer shop and the "experts" skills are based on what crudware needs pushing that week and if they can't find on google you're screwed. After 9pm just reminds me of Bradburys story "The Pedestrian" :)

True, but I have worked in both a Digital Camera and PC shop and in both locations I have served people who are clearly using your knowledge knowing full well they are going to then go on the Internet and buy it cheaper.   One customer did that in the camera shop and was back in the shop a couple of months later to have his camera sent for repair under warranty.  Only then did he find that the camera was a very convincing clone, cosmetically at least.

Ok this instance was the exception, but even where the products are genuine the high street gets all the hassle and no sale.  The end result is clear...no expertise in the high street so, to a degree at least, the customers get the shops they deserve.

I also practice what I preach, in my other hobby - model live steam - I often make a 150 mile round trip to shop the shop that helped me when I was starting out now over ten years ago.  Yes I could have saved some money on the Internet but I would have lost the help and, ten years on, two very good friends.

"There is still a market for current poser figures, but it's not what it used to be. Instead of vendors massively surrporting a nwelt released poser figure, they keep on doing what they're doing and slowly but surely everyone looses out. There needs to be a radical change of thinking if the poser vendors making clothing, hair, textures and so on want to survive. Stop whining about how Genesis destroys the market..... stop releasing stuff for V4/V5, we've seen it all before and start supporting figures like My Michelle (that one comes to mind now) instead. For goodness sake take a chance..... you need to break out of the comfort zone..... get creative again."

I totally agree with this.  You can even remove the "My Michelle" part and insert a different figure.  Things just need to change.  I won't stop trying to support the independents.

I starting making clothes and morphs many years ago and luckily I've been able to adapt and move into other areas (scripts, utilities, toon figures, etc) to broaden what I do.  If I were still just doing clothes and add-ons, I'd be rather unhappy with the state of things.

I admire the versatility and quality of V4 and Genesis but they aren't without their flaws and dependencies and I just can't seem to be comfortable tethered to them.

I haven't dropped out but I have lessened this to being part time with a full-time job elsewhere.  It allows me to continue to be selective and free about choosing what I want to work on.  I truly miss doing this as my main job but I gotta do what I gotta do :)

Oh your're certainly right that some folks will take the pss. Indeed spent 15 minutes eariler telling a customer how to remove a nasty from their laptop. Though I don't consider that as a "loss", because I know this guy will come back when he gets a hardcore nasty that pcworld can't remove. Yea not all high street shops do have the knowledge either. Thats why when I find one like your train shop I stick with them. Like all my cameras are bought from Whitbys (sorry gotta a plugin in they deserve it!), prices are only 10-20 quid more than argos/currys. And unlike PxM***** they won't sell me a grey import with French manual! Same with auction sites, if you buy a grad filter for 2 quid, you know it's not gonna last as long as a Big Lee. Though you are more likely to get threatening emails in broken chinese/english if you don't leave a good review. So yes I'd agree sometimes customers do get the shops they deserve. Netherworks - *I truly miss doing this as my main job but I gotta do what I gotta do :)*Yea I know how you feel about that one.

If I were capable of creating clothing items, I would definitely focus on M4 and attempt to make a coat that didn't make him look like his shoulders look like they they're broken. I'd do much more clothing for the Freak, too and for Stephanie. And textures. New items get some textures, usually touchy-feelly or trampy, but some stuff just needs more variety. Not to say that there isn't a lot of variety for some products. PhilC Designs had a package for V3 of basic clothing. Very versitile and with many options. It was a major value to me.

But that's all beside the point. What I'm reading seems to point to a general decline in sales across all sites. My two cents: DAZ is overpriced unless your a PC member (which I was for years) and it's only worthwhile if you buy a boatload of stuff. With the exception of Evil Innocence, R-DNA has run me off with weird stuff that I could never use (Although certainly others find it very useful.) and with some products that never properly functioned or, in one case, that needed two sets of morphs from DAZ to work (I admit, I didn't read the information thoroughly). I visit Content Paradise, but only occasionally. 

I do visit independent sites and try to support them, but the product has to be something I can use. I've bought several items from Adam at MOST Digital and a truckload of stuff from 9Mbi, but he has not updated his site in about a year and a half. And he does not respond to emails. I know there are some textures from other makers for 9Mbi's stuff, but I do wish there were more. 

All of that said, I agree that we're seeing a lot of the same stuff repackaged over and over and over again. That's not good for anyone, but I imagine some people who've been making a living creating products for Poser and DAZ Studio are terrified that the whole thing is going to implode and they really don't know what to do next.

Doug

Yeah, as far as rising prices or declining sales go, I could only guess.

Saturation is definately a problem because the majority sticks with 2 core figures, male and female.

DAZ has moved onto a different figure outlook and solution that is directly connected to DAZ Studio.  Even if you use the end result via DSON in Poser, you still must use DS to create with if you are a clothing creator anyways.  So there's the split.

Also the landscape has changed.  DAZ is positioned more as a software developer than a content developer so they are going to support their software as the primary platform and frankly, they should.  V5 is pretty much an indicator that Victoria 4 is the last of the Poser native figures.

I think a significant number of vendors feel out of place now and not sure where to go.

Quote - I think a significant number of vendors feel out of place now and not sure where to go.

I felt that way and I'm sure many other do. Half a year back I was considering expanding and the whole genesis figure was kind a dilema for me. I've always done toons, I wanted to try creating clothing for some realistic figures as well. No, not slutwear, but regular day to day clothing, there always seems to be a lack of that.. Started looking at Genesis, since let's be honest, what are the alternatives? No one uses poser figures, so it's either V4/V5 or Genesis, but one other figure caught my interest as well, being My Michelle. Perhaps not widely supported, but maybe worth a try. With the whole sudden hostilty from DAZ against non-DAZ vendors, I'm not going with any of their figures anymore for sure.

But, in the end I decided after much deliberation, to slowly just move away from the poser/ds content market. There's so many things I can do with 3D, I'm going to spent the majority of my time on other things and use my modeling skills for other 3D projects. Of course if I create something that can be used in Poser/DS I'm going to release it, but I'm not going to model for poser specifically anymore as I used. I'm tired of all the brokers that slowly squeeze the live out of arists/vendors. I'm going to be an artist again and perhaps vendor elsewhere, there are so many other markets I could release my content in, if I want to. I've still got items lined up for release here at Rendo and even some stuff for CP, but I'm taking it slow. Once I'm through the list, it will all depend on where I end up and if it leaves me time to release items for use in ds/poser.

Well, I can only purchase what is for sale. 

At this point, there is very little that I am buying (or interested in) for V4/M4.  In fact, the only thing I am looking for is older figures & non-Caucasian figures.  Which means that I don't shop at DAZ anymore.  But I do shop at RenderCandy:

http://www.rendercandy.com/index.php

I have bought every Tyler product available.  I'd buy more if more became available. 

I have bought all but 1 GNDA2 item (I don't need impractical armor - although I may purchase it anyway).  I will buy more if more become available.

I am going down a list of figures/clothing for Michelle & Antonia for March (with the money that used to go to DAZ).  I will buy more if they become available.

Since Billy-T wieght-mapped TY2, I am now adding more to her wardrobe.  I will buy more if more becomes available (although my TY2 wardrobe is fairly extensive).

See the pattern?

I use Wardrobe Wizard and Xdresser extensively, but I prefer to purchase clothing made for each figure.

Netherworks, your earlier versions of HCS don't work unde Poser 2012, I will buy any replacement figure plug-ins as they become available. (Hint, Hint) 

As a final question to vendors - when making a clothing product for V4, how hard is it to rework the obj for other figures use?

ssgbryan, I think all the folks doing non-DAZ figures or working with them very much appreciate your pattern :)  Yes, I need to do more converters and I need to sort out how I approach it.  I would also like to update the system in its entirety to be more automated for Poser 8 and higher.  That means branching it off as a wxPython tool. :)

There are  plenty of poorly made products made by amatures for sale here that are not worth much money, and there are highly skilled artist producing product for which the artist doesent get anywhere near what its worth in this market. Customers here are the benifactures of the fact that most of us just do it for the love of the work and the desire to share it with others. Some of us have standards some people dont. I make high quality stuff that can take 6 months to complete. I figured it up last product I put up for sale here I made the equivalent of 83 cents per hour and it was a good seller, I'm retired so this is not really a big deal.

I am constantly amazed at the absolute crap that is in the whats hot pages, I would think these people would be embarrased to put this stuff up for sale, but then I guess they dont know any better.

To expensive? If you made this stuff you would have a far different opinion. Yes some people do it for free, thats great, its their choice. Some of us would like to make a little extra cash in the process.

Quote - I am constantly amazed at the absolute crap that is in the whats hot pages, I would think these people would be embarrased to put this stuff up for sale, but then I guess they dont know any better.

You know you've insulted a lot of top seller now, don't you? I don't care, because a lot of what they sell is as you call it. What matters is if it sells or not, now if it's well made or not and I'm amazed often at what sells well here. I've lately seen very basic clothing released by top sellers that I would only give away for free or sell for at the most $1.99.

Seems like we've come to the point that quality and creativity doesn't matter anymore, what matters is who sells it.

I agree much of what goes on here is a popularity contest, a few visits to the galleries will reveal that. But such is the nature of this community, one either accepts it or moves on.

I operate on the premise that as I produce more product and have more exposure sales will increase, but I wont lower my standards just to sell stuff. But I only have 2 products for sale right now so I have a long way to go.

To be intellectually honest however, a certain amount of my comments are "sour grapes", I'm sure if I was a best seller week end and week out I wouldnt be complaining about a thing

This morning I visited the store of one of my favorite Renderosity vendors and was shocked at the price escalations. Items that might have sold for $9 or $10 a year ago are now going for $16 to $22. That was like a bucket of cold water in the face. When a digital item is $10 or less, I can rationalize spending the money; however, when it's $16, $18 or over $20 (amounts I've never spent here) it starts to feel like real money. Obviously the vendor knows he'll get it, otherwise he wouldn't have jacked up the prices so high. I know that this particular vendor's item are excellent, still, I'm taking all of his stuff out of my wishlist. No reason to fool myself into thinking I'll ever buy any of it.

Quote - This morning I visited the store of one of my favorite Renderosity vendors and was shocked at the price escalations. Items that might have sold for $9 or $10 a year ago are now going for $16 to $22. That was like a bucket of cold water in the face. When a digital item is $10 or less, I can rationalize spending the money; however, when it's $16, $18 or over $20 (amounts I've never spent here) it starts to feel like real money. Obviously the vendor knows he'll get it, otherwise he wouldn't have jacked up the prices so high. I know that this particular vendor's item are excellent, still, I'm taking all of his stuff out of my wishlist. No reason to fool myself into thinking I'll ever buy any of it.

Deja vu?

Quote - I don't want to be a stick in the mud, but is it me or have prices on many Poser items, both here and in other sites, gone up exponentially? It seems that suddenly items that might have gone for $7 or $8 a year or two ago are now going for $14 or $16. Don't get me wrong, vendors can charge what they want, but I've dramatically cut back on my budget. And, hey, maybe it's just me.

Doug

Well, yes, you're right. It probably is just deja vu. I was truly shocked at items going for $22, but so be it. Henceforth, I'll keep my comments to myself. Again, sorry.

While it is nice to have cheap prices, and it can be annoying if you like someone's work and then find you can now longer afford their work.  On the other hand I always look at the item and ask myself a couple of questions, firstly could I build anything similar and then if the answer is Yes (pretty rare) now long would it take me to build it.  Assuming the answer to the first question in yes but it is going to take me a month of my hobby time then I think $22 is relatively cheap.

I would rather spend an extra few hours doing what I am skilled at and use the extra income to do what I can't do easily.  Then again these days I do the same with my car, I would rather work in the warm and let someone else get cold and oily servicing the thing.  I guess it depends on your skill set what disposable income and free time you have.