What's considered normal currently with object geometries for items intended for sale, store the object geometry separate in the geometries folder or leave it included in the Prop / Figure library file?  Does it make much difference?

I ask in part because I'm aware a lot of Poser content is showing up in Second Life, from textures to object meshes, and 99% of it being used without permission.  Has that affected whether those creating content for Poser store the geometry in a separate file?

Since Smith Micro use both methods I would say that both methods are acceptable.

As for illegal re-distribution, I think that is a risk which all vendors and even freebie creators have to deal with. It's very annoying for buyers of authentic products, too.

Phil - Wasn't there supposed to be some advantage to storing the geometry separate?  I seem to vaguely remember it supposedly made things load faster or something.  Been away from all this for way too long.  I can separate it out, not that much involved just an extra step in setting things up.

Infinity - Yeah its a real problem and the virtual worlds like 2nd Life are a big part of it.

External to the library file, certainly but I do not think that it will make much difference as to which directory the geometry is located in. Within reason.

AFAIK, some stores will reject a prop if it's not stored in the Geometries folder, as a separate, discrete object file.

Bearing in mind that a prop can, and does by default, store itself as a text file with no external geometry.  I know that obj files are text files, strictly speaking but a pp2 has the whole shebang in there.

I prefer to have things in the Geometries folder, simply because it's easier to find (usually) and anyhow, keeps things neat and tidy, and it certainly makes things easier if you're referencing an external file, since you can move the PP2 around without worrying about it looking for the obj in a location that ain't there any more.  

Thanks for the replies.  Those are good points Sam, looks like I'll be setting up the separate geometries then.

I don't know about other applications that load Poser content, but DS won't look for the OBJ in the local folder (the library folder the Cr2 or pp2 loads from) so if you put the OBJ there and people decide to move things around (as w...they do) the item may throw a missing OBJ message. Putting the OBJ in geometries and the textures in Textures is safer for compatibility.

With a pp2 referencing a remote OBJ, others can produce alternate textures and distribute those alternate versions without distributing the original creator's geometry mesh.

     The texture artist's pp2 contains no geometry, it simply references the same remote OBJ as the original prop.

seachnasaigh - Hmm, hadn't considered that, you're talking about not just making textures and mat files, but props with the texture already applied, correct?  That's another good point I'll keep in mind.

Clearly some good reasons given so far for the separate obj geometry and I'll definitely be doing that.  Any other advantages to the separate geometry, might as well get a full "education" on the subject while we're on it.  The suggestions are appreciated.

     Yes, many commercial (and freebie) add-ons have been offered this way.  For example, I recall the Mog Ruith elven house;  an alternative Celtic great hall version was released several months later, as a set of props just like the original.  But these prop files referenced the Mog Ruith geometries, so you had to have the original Mog Ruith product to use the Celtic pack.  I recall a gazebo for which I have three add-on versions.  For things like the DAZ Morphing Fantasy Dress, the list of commercial and freebie add-ons is quite long.  All the add-on cr2s reference the original DAZ OBJ.

     This is very common practice, and allowing for this is a major reason that many places require remotely referenced geometries.  In this method, even if they cannot model or UV map, texture artists can contribute new alternatives complementing the original product.  All those umpteen items in the stores with names like Leannan Sidhe for the Mog Ruith Gazebo, or Party Time for the MFD are using this sytem.

     The original Morphing Fantasy Dress had only a simple texture.  But DAZ had done the hard part (modeling, mapping, creating morphs, even providing templates), and then a texture artist could scan cloth swatches and paint a new texture, apply it, and re-save the dress as a new cr2.  Their new cr2 referenced the DAZ OBJ, so it respects copyright. Such an add-on can be sold commercially or offered as a freebie.

     Another reason  for stripping out the geometry is to facilitate use of the item in some other rendering studio.  Most any 3D program can swallow an OBJ, but they may not be able to interpret a Poser pp2 or cr2.

All good points, plus I was just going over the Rosity product guidelines.  They require the geometry to be stored separately in the Geometries folder.  So that would settle the question regardles.  But its good to know all the varous reasons, advantages and uses.  Thanks for the info.

Maybe the practice of storing differnt aspects of a prop is a historic protocol that no longer needs to be applied. Everything I make for a model that the model needs I drop into the prop folder. When I have used PhilC's WW I put the geiometry, pp2 and tx into the same folder and never have a problem. It keeps everything tidy and ina know place.

“Maybe the practice of storing different aspects of a prop is a historic protocol that no longer needs to be applied.”

I’m pretty sure no one anticipated the complexity of terabyte scale runtimes, so the design was reasonable at the time. It still makes sense in many cases e.g. multiple items referencing the same geometry as seachnasaigh mentioned. It’s nice to have the flexibility to place them where you want to though. Some programs can store everything including textures in a single file. IMO each method has advantages and disadvantages depending on the situation.

The only past problem I can think of would be if you had an .obj with the same name as the .cr2/pp2 and in the same folder. In the days of .rsr thumbnails, the geometry ‘cache’ .rsr would probably overwrite the thumbnail the first time you used the item. People putting the .obj in the same folder had to use a different name e.g. ball.pp2 and ball_geom.obj.

Poser meshes have the highest polycount & larg textures.
Games like Second Life have the smalest polycount ,small textures.

Ya would need to reduce a Poser mesh buy 90% to get it small enuff to get it to work in Second Life.The mesh would look bad.if it bends you would need to retopology it .

Then ya would need to shrink n strip the textures.so they would look very plain.
So ya would half to redo the texture to look desent.

There causing there selfs more work then if they just straight out made the mesh n textures from the start them selfs.

Good points, RK but people still do it, nevertheless.

I think keeping the geometry in the prop file would not prevent people from stealing it... after all, people can simply save out a new .obj file directly from Poser.

I was on Second Life a few years ago (before they added custom mesh capability) and there was a lot of stolen work there, especially skins. I remember one SL skin creator who was always going on about his work being stolen by other skin creators inside SL. Well guess what? It turned out that this person had himself been converting skins he had bought at Renderosity. ;)

I am pretty sure you can report things like that though when you discover them, at least that used to be the case.

Frequency - no it wouldn't prevent them from stealing.  But, in the case of filing a suit for a registered copyright, the fact that they would have to deliberately export the obj mesh in order to upload it to SL in a court would go a long way toward proving intend to steal... and that can make a big difference in damages awarded.  I'm less worried though about obj meshes being stolen for my big pieces like the fountain I'm working on... its 40k verts, which would never work in SL. 

You are right, skin and clothing textures are far more likely to be stolen.  I saw a lot of stolen clothing at Utherverse when I was there.  You can report them, whether anything gets done about it is another question.  But that's another debate and beyond my original question.

Also, reading over Rosity's vendor requirements they specifically state the obj geometry must be stored separately in the geometry folder; so since I plan to sell here that settles it anyway.  But its been interesting and educational hearing some of the other reasons for doing so.