I'm looking at a remake of Roxie that Ambient Shade did, then I look at Anastasia, the remake of Alyson2 that Blackhearted did, then you look at V4, Dawn and V5-V6, and then I look at Roxie, and I've come to the conclusion that the Poser community seems to have a type of woman they prefer and "average" ain't it.

So do you prefer a more statuesque beauty or a more down to earth girl or guy to work with?

Note: We're talking without the ability to morph, which type of woman would you pprefer to render?

Pesonally, I'm sick of the all perfection with models. I find myself often reworking the existing ones I have. So my suggestion would be more down to earth, or more like real people.

Are you planning on making a morph to sell? In that case I would say go for the beauty. I think most people want that.

It is fairly easy to unbeautify a pretty character if you have some morphs to do it with. 

All default figures scaled to same shoulder height.

I do not remember exactly what figures any more, but Miki4 and Alyson are in there.

I prefer average and as (photo)realistic as possible.

Those superimposed figures tell the whole story!  (Of course Posette, with her strange long thighs, would wreck the uniformity.)

Off-base thought:  There's something basically contradictory about the standard long willowy blonde.  Long lanky people tend to be found in hot dry places, because they have more surface per volume.  Short squared people tend to be found in cold places, because they have more volume per surface.

And what else is true about hot-dry-place people?  They sure ain't blondes!  You can't get darker or willowier than a Kenyan.

Never really seen much of Roxy.  I actually really like parts of her body.  But her face, armpits and feet ruin it for me.  

Oh JJ, but this are all FBM's, not Roxie as she comes out of the box by miles.

Default she looks like a teen age girl.
These where made to make her look in her end 30 begin 40.

Posted here to show her mophability.

People "say" they want "average." They buy "beautiful."

People "say" they want "realistic" clothes. They buy slutwear.

It is easy to make pretty into ugly. (in fact, it's REALLY easy to make a figure "pretty ugly!")

It is very difficult to make ugly into pretty.

Anyone seen Antonia Polygon in a gallery render lately? I rest my case.

$.02

Thing is, most of Posers figures tend to be Average, while most DAZ figures tend to be statuesque. Now on one hand we, as users, tell Poser we want more everyday, average women, then we get into fights over why DAZ has prettier figures. But then look at Anastasia, reworked Alyson 2 to look more statuesque and her popularity goes up.

I'm just saying...

From my very first screengrab.

• V4 is there
• Genesis is there
• Dawn is there
• Alyson2 is there.

What do you see ?  ?  ?  ?  ?

In the second, (red) screengrab, the difference is more clear.

The only outspoken difference is the size of the head.

Quote - Note: We're talking without the ability to morph, which type of woman would you pprefer to render?

BLB - Beauties with Large Breasts.

"Average" doesn't mean "ugly" and "statuesque" doesn't mean "pretty".

And (PHOTO)REALISTIC just means that a model was accuaretly sculpted after a real life person.

I can sculpt a breathtakingly pretty average woman in a highly unrealistic way, and an ugly as f*ck statuesque woman in a photorealistic way.

And any other combination.

So let us be precise with our terms.

I think most can agree that we want our Poser people to be pretty/handsome by default.

So there is no much arguing about the faces, even though a not too distinctive "prettyness" is more practical for morphing than just another Angelina Jolie clone.

Then the body: Slim and fit, of course.

Average or statuesque ?

Doesn't really matter using animateable joint centers, but I definitely prefer "average height" because it is easier to morph up or down from a "middle height" than to morph all the way down from an extreme tall build.

Realistic or stylized ?

No question, realistic. I mean "real" realistic, not the fake semi-realism everyone tries to sell as "realistic". (And yeah, DAZ is quite guilty of that.)

The CGI world finally jumps the uncanny valley big time. If you want to be taken serious, photorealism is the name of the game.

Joe,  I love love love your characters.  Every time you post screengrabs I'm like 'ooooh awesome'.

I worked with pjz99 on a character that was niche.  Lots of people said she'd be wanted.  Her texture is actually fantastic.  Pjz is a slave driver lmao and I put a LOT of time into that texture. It's still one of the best that he or I have.  But guess what, the character didn't sell for squat.  

I learned the hard way that what sells in this market is beautiful people and fairy people.  Period.  

OH and just to add, IMHO average is beautiful.  What I meant  by beautiful is 'magazine type, barbie proportions, etc.  Basically unattainable beauty.  And people say they want realism lmao....

Relatively attractive by default.

Body needs to look human, and represent the gender its supposed to be fairly well.

Needs to be well constructed without crazy weird joint issues, or asymmetrical mesh problems, and UV maps that actually exist for ALL body parts and that don't overlap, that can be textured relatively easily. 

Versatility. 

Versatility means LOTS of morphs.

The majority of vendors are not modelers, they're dial spinners. 

If you want a vendor to support a figure, give them enough morph dials to choke on. And then give them some more.

If you're expecting them to create their own morphs you're going to be waiting a long time. About as long as it takes for the V4, V5, V6, V7, V8 and probably the V9 markets to dry up.

~Shane

I know. I was cursed with optimism.

Quote - I know. I was cursed with optimism.

ROFLMAO

Hey. Do what YOU WANT TO DO. If people like it, fine. If not, YOU still have something YOU wanted!

I blame Da Vinci and his "Vitruvian man" for popularizing the Romain ideal of a figure that is eight heads tall. Maybe Marvel et al are responsible for popularizing the heroic ideal that is closer to nine heads tall. But one thing is certain: statuesque proportions have been idealized for a very long time.

As for realism (say, actual photos), if it's for public consumption and you have the misfortune of working with a real human, you'll pick one that conforms as closely to the ideal as possible and/or use Photoshop to "stretch" the limbs.

Why shouldn't Poser users continue with this time-honored tradition? It's not as though the other "arts" have a history of celebrating the ordinary by being consistently true to "average" life. :D

statuesque |ˌsta ch oōˈesk|
adjective
(esp. of a woman) attractively tall and dignified : her statuesque beauty.

I like roxie's proportions best for a teen character.  but I notice there is only one character set here in the MP for her.  In my first roxie experiment I made her head invisible in poser and tried to put V4 with an invisible body on her.  However everytime I clicked on the v4 the Roxie head reappeared and when I moved her the neck stretched.  Maybe a glitch?  I better try again.  the roxie had some body part scaling changes. maybe she doesn't do scaling?

Love esther

where's the ambient shade version of roxie?

the textures wouldn't be a problem as there is a converting utility available so roxie can take V4 textures.  but I think her shape isn't quite right for what I want.

The question comes down to what you are doing with your art?

Advertising? A book cover? Poster to sell a product? think advertising companies. The people they typically use are not ugly, homely, etc.

In the galleries here, illustrate a story then vareity is what works and you need homely plan janes to make it work. That said illustrate a story for the place you can't mention here with a 50 year old looking V4 is not the fantasty character that is going to draw in readers.

In my opinion each has it place depending on the project at hand and the target you are trying to reach.

Quote - where's the ambient shade version of roxie?

Check out the thread "Why Vicky is Smart", bottom of the second page.

Quote -
estherau: where's the ambient shade version of roxie?

She's in JoePublic's "Why Vicky is smart" thread, 2nd page close to the bottom: 

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2878970&page=2

It was mostly just an eperiment to see how close to an adult female I could make Roxie look with her current mesh. I'm still working on her. 

lol, how did i cross post with clark on that? 

~Shane

someone else mentioned it in one of the above discussions in this thread.

Thanks for the link.

here's a pic of the ambient shade one in case everyone else wants to see.

Anyways the rules is

Head
5 eyes wide
7 Eyes Tall

Body
8 heads tall.

etc etc & a lot of other measurements every one knows buy heart.

That DAZ Poser and most others follow 80% to 100% .
If you don't follow this rule.

Real people are 6 head tall but if you make a character 6 heads tall.
She'll look dumpy
or she'll look to young for 90% of DAZ Poser renders.
Dawn has a wide chin to make sure everyone knows she's of age.
Every one follows a certain wideness of hips & breast size also to say she's of age.

A normal male start buy following the 5x7x8 also .
If they want a super hero they might enlarge to 9 heads tall ,widen the shoulders.

It's all a ratio trick superman is 5x7x8 but in real life he would only stand 4 feet 8 inches tall.

There's a lot more tricks everyone uses also. 
Art's not real no matter how realistic. Your selling something there never see in real life.

RorrKon: Most people are 7-1/2 heads tall, not 6. My Roxie morph follows the 7.5 heads rule almost exactly. 8 heads is traditionally ideal, for super models and heroic types. 

~Shane

This kind of reminds me of the question people used to ask about Gilligans Island (an old American TV show). One of the common questions was "Would you prefer to be stranded on an island with Ginger (the stereotypical hollywood actress/model type) or with MaryAnn (the stereotypical atractive girl next door type)?". My thought was always well, actually, niether one, I'd prefer to get marooned with "GingerAnn". Taking the "best" attributes of both.

So my response would be a little of both the statuesque beauty or a more down to earth girl.

A quick look through the galleries here, at RDNA, or even at DA, will let you know what the majority of people really prefer. Except for those that are trying to achieve realism using an example of someone you would see on the street, a relative, a neighbor, etc., what could be considered even a semi-attractive model (male or female) is seldom used. This type of figure is great as an addition to a multi-figure scene, or as a character in a story, but seldom used as the focal point for a single figure glamore or hero shot type render.

If I want reality, I can look in the mirror, go to the store, etc. I use Poser, DS, Carrara, etc. to make images that come from my head, or some other source of inspiration (Frazzeta maybe), and the average everyday girl/guy typically doesn't fit that image. It's a realistic looking 3D image that is a break from reality I'm after - not reality.

Looks good AmbientShade.

Been staring at CGI Characters for so long
& It's been to long since I've used real world models.

So lets see if I can remember how to do some math.

real world heads very but would be 9 eyes tall to 11 eyes tall ?

AmbientShade - your Roxy is looking very good!!

QUOTE:
"Statuesque or Down to Earth?***"

It would depend what I wanted to render.  If I wanted to render a ballet dancer, statuesque (and I'd morph Roxie for that).  If I wanted to render a multi-figure scene, perhaps down to earth would do it just to make the contrast.

For a pin-up, I'd probably go for curvy and start with one of the fuller figures.

**
@Shane**
Nice work on your Roxie, but you do realise you've gone and made the only safe teen we've ever had in the Runtime, into a mature adult, don't you? :-P

I think one of the cool things about the default Roxie is that she's a teen, but one that clearly looks of age.  It's the first time I've seen that in the Runtime because they're usually either mature adults, or kids, with a massive age gap in-between.

I think Roxie fills that gap really well.

Oh, I don't know. Antonia can be made to look quite attractive (to me, at least). Here's one I posted over at RDNA. I guess I should start posting them over here as well. :)

I used to use V4 pretty much exclusively. I still use her, but I've discovered models like Antonia and MyMichelle are very much capable of giving Vicki a run for her money with a little bit of patience. I've had a good time getting Antonia to come out her shell, so to speak. :)

@ booksbydavid - that's great work, particularly that first image - IMO everything in that image just works and looks right, and that's hard to achieve!

Always did like AntoniaWM, I much prefer the proportions to those of V4 - and of course Diogenes/Phantom3d did an excellent job with the rigging.

Love the face on that second one, David.

She looks sort of semi-human, semi-alien (and I mean that in a good way), gives her character and makes her look different :-)

Thanks, guys. Just wanted to show that Antonia can hold her own with the big V.

Once you get used to her morphs, you can definitely get Antonia to be 'different'.

So, back to the orginal topic, I guess I prefer the Down to Earth look. V4 is great and she can do a lot, but figures like Antonia, MyMichelle and Roxie have their place as well. :)

HMm... maybe I should have named this thread "Ginger or MaryAnn"?

Hey David, I like that last one a lot. And the first one's not bad either.  As for the second though, I think Antonia might want to leave the Glamour shots to V4. Just my $.02.

I miss ODF .
Isn't Antonia a open source mesh ?
So you could Boolean a tail on Antonia and remodel her ears and sell a cat version ?

Quote - Oh, I don't know. Antonia can be made to look quite attractive (to me, at least). Here's one I posted over at RDNA. I guess I should start posting them over here as well. :)

Different strokes. Not my cup of tea. But glad you like them.

Thanks DustRider, appreciate it. :)

Quote - This kind of reminds me of the question people used to ask about Gilligans Island (an old American TV show). One of the common questions was "Would you prefer to be stranded on an island with Ginger (the stereotypical hollywood actress/model type) or with MaryAnn (the stereotypical atractive girl next door type)?". My thought was always well, actually, niether one, I'd prefer to get marooned with "GingerAnn". Taking the "best" attributes of both.

lol - neither for me. I think I'd drown them both within the first week. 

That show made zero sense anyway. Where'd they get all those damned clothes? It was a 3 hour tour for f*'s sake! but they had enough clothes to fill a GAP outlet.

And all the buildings and hand-crafted furniture they made out of straw and bamboo, yet none of them could figure out how to build a boat or repair the one they had? 

Pluse

Quote -

@Shane
Nice work on your Roxie, but you do realise you've gone and made the only safe teen we've ever had in the Runtime, into a mature adult, don't you? :-P

I think one of the cool things about the default Roxie is that she's a teen, but one that clearly looks of age.  It's the first time I've seen that in the Runtime because they're usually either mature adults, or kids, with a massive age gap in-between.

I think Roxie fills that gap really well.

Thanks. But, uhm, "safe" teen? hmm. 

Not trying to bash anyone, but default Roxie has the body of a 12 year old boy with a glandular problem (moobs). Even my neice - who is 19 - that was her first response. "Where are her curves? And what happened to that face!?"

But I guess different people are attracted to different things. Personally I like females to have nice curves and exotic features. My brother says I give all my females "black girl booties" so I'm trying to work on that. lol. I do like my darker skinned ladies tho, so maybe its a subconscious thing. 

~Shane