Several recent threads that have required AmbientShade's attention have led me to do something I had first decided against, but now think needs to be done.

This post.

Now that I am no longer a Moderator, or in any way connected to the Renderosity organization, I'm going to say a few things that have been on my mind for the past couple of years that I could not say while in a position of authority. I offer these opinions in the spirit of community improvement, not as trolling. If anyone wants to disagree, have at it. I am not going to respond to anything posted about this document. The ideas speak for themselves. If anyone wants to try and bully me about them, let me know how that works out for you.

Many moons ago when I was recruited as a Moderator, I was told that the Poser Forum would be my only responsibility. Management was fed up with the trolls, and the way newbies were being mistreated and chased away, and they wanted changes. Well, all I can say is, I tried. Didn't do so hot. The problems I was asked to solve still exist. No excuses. 

Being someone with psychological training, I did, however, learn a boatload about the dynamics of the forum. It is to that end that I post the following:

"If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem."

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1.** If you have publicly stated that Poser is not the software you use, why are you posting in this forum?**  There is a group of forum members of whom I have been dying to ask this question for years. I'm not talking about the folks who want to investigate Luxrender or one of the alternative render engines... I get what that contributes to the community. What I don't get is the group who seems to do nothing but tell us how we would be better off using something else. What is it, folks? Do you own stock in a competing program? Does it make you feel superior that you have "moved on?" All I know is, these people NEVER post anything that helps me be a better Poser user. They simply add noise to whatever discussion is underway. 

2.** If all you came here to do is bitch, why are you here?** I'm not suggesting that there is never a reason to complain about anything. I'm suggesting that there is a proper way to seek answers to a problem, and a way that insures that all you are going to accomplish is hacking a bunch of people off. Yes. ALL softwares/add-ons/figures have problems if you look hard enough. This is one of the things that brings me to the forum regularly is trying to solves issues that I have run up against... seeing if anyone else has observed the same thing... seeing if they have an answer that will serve. When I have an issue, I try to describe it, provide as much background as I can so that others can try to duplicate the problem, and politely ask if anyone can help. I almost ALWAYS get help. I have a feeling if I came here loudly proclaiming  "Poser SUCKS!" there would be a different response...namely, my being ignored. I guarantee that unless you detail what your issue is, no one will BE ABLE to help you. Why people think that being unpleasant and over-bearing and just plain MEAN will get them anywhere eludes me. The same goes for those who seem to think gratuitous profanity enhances a conversation. 

3. What do you think Renderosity can do about things orchestrated by Smith Micro, Daz3d, or any other vendor not a part of our site? You do not go into a Chevrolet showroom and loudly decry the shortcomings of Ford. The management is going to put you out in short order so that you do not bother their customers. To use our forum here to bad-mouth Smith Micro for not fixing your pet bug... to bash Daz3d for their decision the end native support for Poser in their figures... to criticize Poser World for their business practices is just plain RUDE. It makes this look like a place where bullies congregate to whip themselves up into a feeding frenzy. Rendo have taken a real beating for allowing anti-Daz posts in the past. I was as guilty as anyone in the beginning. We as a community need to learn from those mistakes how to keep out of the dealings of other firms. Everyone is responsible to drive their own business model. If your issue is with SM, file a ticket there. If the issue is with a Rendo vendor, then perhaps we can help.

4. Why is it necessary to bash everyone else's work? If you don't think something is well-done, why is it necessary for you to make that opinion public? Is your airing of that opinion in this forum going to bring about the desired change? (See item 3 above). Often, things that matter a great deal to a very limited few have exactly zero impact on the masses. Case in point: Dawn. She got bashed to pieces the first few days she was out, and still draws fire when the 8 people who think they know how to design a better figure need a punching bag. Reality: She works great in my runtime, and I'm not alone. Check out the forums over at Hivewire. Example #2: Rex and Roxie are the first SM figures I have actually found useful, but there's a vocal contingent that seems extremely unhappy over any development that some truly talented people here in the forums have undertaken for these figures. Why? They say they want a quality figure from SM... then badmouth the best efforts so far. 

5. Why do YOU feel the need to be a "Big Dog?"  I get it when someone who has made a lot of content for a particular figure wants to promote that figure. Just human nature. (And the profit motive.) What I don't get is people who start threads promoting their own point of view and downplaying everyone else's. I suspect is it akin to the male genital comparisons that occur in Junior High locker rooms... a form of one-upmanship that simply points out the insecurities of the poster. The "Big Dogs" that I respect... (including but not limited to) The Bagginsbill's... the SnarleyGribley's... the Hborre's... the Geep's.... the Ockham's... these people EARN the respect they have, not by posting "here's how smart I am," but by posting "try this... this may be the answer to your question." If you really want respect, try helping people... not feathering your own nest or posting just to boost your ego. 

6. Playing the TOS limits game. COME ON DOWN! The TOS is there to give you an idea of what is considered acceptable behavior on this site. It is not something to see how far we can push before someone pushes back. For some, the game is to see how agregous they can make their behavior before a moderator locks the thread. Most who have been here long enough know who these people are and can spot them at work a mile away. How many times did I see the hand-gernade post, followed by another message "Watch... thread about to be locked" before I or someone else stepped in the send it to the trashcan.  I suspect this is often done by someone who see's their viewpoint losing the argument, and use that as an excuse to close the discussion. 

7. Why are we so nasty to the Newbies? Yes, they ask questions that have been asked a thousand times before. However, I'm going to suggest that a reasonable person will do one of two things: 1. Ignore the thread. 2. Look up the answer for the poor soul and post it. Being ugly, snippy or saying "Do a forum search" to someone who obviously has no clue as to how to search is totally non-productive. Once they've been shown how to search, then they can be expected to mine out info... but not the first time. We need to nurture these people instead of dismissing and intimidating them. 

"If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem."

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I once served on a Grand Jury. It was a fascinating exercise. The Commonwealth Attorney made an interesting statement: "90% of the crime is done by 10% of the people." He was right. Most of the people who were dragged before the Grand Jury had rap sheets inches thick. The same is true here. The vast majority of the issues in this forum are created by a very small minority of the users. It is VERY difficult to weed these problem children out. They are, as a class, pretty smart in knowing just how far they can push the TOS to make life difficult for the rest of us. We have, however, been presented with a wonderful tool to help in this regard. It is the "Ignore" button. When I was a moderator, I didn't have that luxury. I had to read every post on every subject that got posted. Now, I have the intense pleasure of skipping threads that don't interest me, and hitting ignore on the people i deem to be non-productive. It's a life-plan that works. If we will all give it a try it will lessen the stress on the Moderators and not damage their health to the point that it damaged mine.

Food for thought.

I've now thrown my final stone into the dog pack. We'll see which ones yelp.

I totally agree with your observations

Only problem I see is that the ignore button does not restore disturbed or locked threads

non-poser users may hang out here because they once used poser and still long for the good old days, before poser became too complex for them.  otherwise, it's mostly about self-promotion and trying to stay relevant, because poser is so compelling for everybody - the talk of the 3D community.

The sad part is the  "you are either with us or against us" attitude that has prevailed in these forums the last few years. It has kept me from posting many times.

The reality is that both poser and D/S exist in the same world and can be used in similar ways and have similar products....and will generate similar discussions. Discussions that people enjoy getting involved with...or they would if they dont get treated like they are not part of the elite "He-Man-Program-Haters Club" (yeah...you gotta a certain age to catch that reference LOL).

I will be glad to see some open minded changes here, where people can talk freely about eiher program and not get beaten down for it.I use both programs...and it has not caused my computer or brain to explode LOL

I am nostalgic about this place..it is true, because it used to be a fun place to hang out and talk.

@basicwiz

My, I bet you feel better after getting that off you chest.  I don't think there is a word in the whole of your post that I do not agree with.  I may have been part of the problem as I have posted about threads being locked but not to get then locked but because I had seen so many threads go the same way.  I used to be suspect it as soon as the usual suspects arrived then found you could predict what threads they would be drawn to.  Lots of others pull made sure they had a good supply of popcorn so they new there topic would be hot.

I was also critical of Dawn when first launched but only becasue I was disappointed.  Others were not and more recently I have refrained from giving a view other than suggesting any one interested should download Dawn for themselves and see if it meets their needs.

The ignore button has made life a little easier for me to hang around here but I am seriously looking for an alternative.  What really bothers me is my pressing the ignore button does nothing to stop some of the posts you describe being seen by new users looking for genuine help.

Take a look at any recent thread relating to a new user wondering what figure he/she should use and make up your own judgement but I would suggest not all of the responses could be seen as being helpful.

How helpful is it to have terms like 'Vendors do this' or Venders don't do that because' as if all the vendors do the same or the poster implies they have a working knowledge of every vendor out there. 

You have summed up the situation in a way I could not begin to, but it is well said.  As it stands, at best the new comer loses some money following bad or heavily biased advice but maybe learns a lesson along the way.  At worse they give up on Rendo forums or 3D in general.

I don't post here often as I don't feel comfortable posting here, and some days I don't even feel welcome to post here.

Number 4 on your list has been one of the reasons I pretty much gave up on these forums a few months ago.  I'm still confused as to which figure I should be using, as apparently none of them are good enough to use.

I feel for the moderators here, I really do.  It can't be an easy job on a good day.

Quote -

Seconded

First of all I'd like to say what a relief it is to hear both Wiz and Shane are still in the land of the living.  First glance of the title of this thread I thought one of you had croaked or something!

Well said, Wiz, and the point you made that stood out most to me was those that are "mean to newbies".  That sort of thing is something that should be taken a lot more seriously than it is.  If someone tells a newbie to try searching, that post should be deleted without question because it's just plain arrogant and leaves a bad taste in the mouth of the newbie, who lets face it, might even feel a little intimidated to start with when they first enter a new forum where everyone but themselves appear to know each other.

All it does it make them feel like an unwanted outsider, and they'll likely never come back because of it.  If I owned a forum, those posts absolutely would never be allowed to exist, period.  The post would be deleted and a message sent to the poster explaining why.

I remember when I first started posting on forums, I didn't even know what "lol" was.  It took me a while before I had the guts to actually ask because that many people were using it.  Thankfully I was among good people, they pointed it out without making me look like an idiot.

Amen, bubba!

I have been here for more years then I remember, and just say, this was greatly said and I totally agree!

He** yes!!

Like hornet3d, I am guilty of being overly critical of Dawn, and for the exact same reasons. When something is hyped with a lot of marketing, it's very disappointing when your expectations aren't met. But I very much regret giving into that feeling. Definitely regret taking part in the feeding frenzy that followed her release. Wiz, you're absolutely right. There's no need to be publicly critical of someone else's work unless they've specifically asked for that criticism. We don't go around telling people, "Yes, ma'am, those pants really DO make you look fat" even when it's obviously true. Same applies here. :)

As for the newbie questions: I don't like to see people telling others to search the forums, unless they tell them specifically what to search for. 90% of the time the search function does not turn out relevant results for me, and I've been using it for years. When Bagginsbill says, "Search the forum for [blank] and put me in as the username" it's different because as soon as you narrow down your search that way, you actually do get meaningful results. But a broad, "Just do a search" isn't helpful to anyone.

Nor is a RTFM type response. I don't think there's anything wrong with pointing out that there is a manual for Poser because I expect a lot of people don't actually realize that. Or they don't know where to find it. 

But I think it might be better to assume that this was the last place a newbie looked for answers, rather than the first. And that they have probably already tried to Google for answers or already used the forum search, and may even have already tried to figure things out by reading the manual. But not everything is in the manual, and a lot of what you find on Google is way out of date.

I think we forget how complex and daunting things like installing content can be.

So, amen, Wiz, and I apologize as well for the grief I've caused you.

Well said!

Yeah, I think I'm just going to shut up and concentrate on making stuff for Rex and Roxie.

Re: Newbies....

There WAS a facility here that was being developed by the USERS here and it's plug got pulled and that was the PoserWIKI.

The FAQ is nice, but the WIKI IMVVVHO was better.

Newbies could be directed to it and it being hosted/sponsored/backed/supported by Renderosity could have been leveraged into something for Renderosity, esp. traffic back to the site.

I agree with Basicwiz's post, and most of ssgbryan's. I've been unwilling to post here at times for all the reasons mentioned. Unfortunately, at times, a forum becomes dominated by the 'big dog' players who just like making other people feel intimidated or stupid. I've copped that from Bagginsbill as well, so nobody is perfect. (Note: not saying BB was trying to intimidate or make me feel stupid, he just did)

Some observations:

the comment "I'm an artist and I make what I want" is entirely valid. I've worked as a graphic designer and have sold and exhibited work as a fine artist. As a graphic designer the end result is what the client asked for (I realise someone elses vision). A (financially) successful vendor will look at where the gaps and niches are in existing lines and sound out interest in those. An artist makes their own vision a reality and places it on display. My old lecturer would say "if nobody gets it, you failed". Making your own "art" is fine, but expecting it to sell (well) is possibly unrealistic. Making the piece is a challenge; making a unique piece is a greater challenge. Making it work can be very impressive, and will gain you lots of techical credibility. That's no guarantee it will be a popular item sales wise. Still, I've known many artists that felt they had to be 'misunderstood' as a sign of their genius. Go figure.

the biggest issue with search functions is that they are text based, and we work in a visual medium. How do you explain what your problem is in a way that has been used before so the search function can find it? Sometimes I find a post that has something similar and I try those key words, but it not always easy. To the newbies out there, a common request is to post a picture so people know what you are talking about. I've found I got pretty quick (and helpful) answers if I did that up front.

ssgbryan, I fail to see the importance of .mc6 files in light of your 'easy to use' statement further along in your post. If the product works as advertised (load the prop or character and it shows up textured) why do I even need to know what the file format is? I should never have to look at it. Maybe you could do a tutorial for us and explain why it is so important (and how to make them... I have no clue).

I fully agree on the !!!vendor_name thing in vendor formats. The !!! is to put them at the top of the runtime, and then they expect you to know every product they produced so you can find stuff. I have well over 3000 products across several runtimes; my memory isn't that good.

To me, Poser is a tool (like a pen or a brush). Different people will use it different ways to achieve different things. Criticism of 'realism' or 'fantasy' or 'toon' is pointless. I'm glad Poser is working on all of these, even though I don't use most of it. Maybe one day I will.

I could never be a moderator. Read every post? I'd go nuts. Marking assignments is bad enough.

Quote - @ ssgbryan, I think your complaints are valid, and we've all experienced what you're talking about. But I don't think venting in the forums is going to change much, if anything. If the Poser forums are perceived as being hostile to vendors because of all the b!tching, they're not going to read them. I wouldn't want to. It's probably more useful to talk about ways to deal with these issues -- because we've all learned how to do that. Share that knowledge.

If a vendor is going to be a professional, then they have to start acting and thinking like a professional.  A good first step on the road to being a professional is to stop acting like a drama queen when someone isn't happy with your product.

So just what do you suggest to affect change? If we all stop buying substandard products, then the vendor doesn't know WHY their sales are dropping.  They will just whine in the forum that they can't make money making Poser content.

As an example, just how do you suggest we get vendors to let DOS file naming conventions behind?  I have PM & emailed  in the past - and they don't take kindly to any input other than "Gee you are awesome!"  Too many of them honestly expect me to do the work of moving their products into the 21st century.

2 years ago, I was suggesting that Poser vendors do a kickstarter for each product - don't reach the goal, don't make the product, no time lost - reach your goal - vendor gets paid, and every copy sold after the initial kickstart is 100% profit.  A happy by-product would be getting a better understanding of what customers actually want.

What was the response? I'm an artist, I make what I want.  Too many vendors work on the If I make it, they will buy it mantra, in spite of all evidence to the contrary. 

You can tell a vendor, you just can't tell them very much.......

Of course, 'Rosity could fix a lot of the issues I brought up by simply adding them to the QA process.  Make something for a Poser 9+ product - you have to follow Poser 9 conventions.  Regretfully, that would make too much sense apparently.

I'm assuming my post just got zapped along with the others by accident, Shane!

There is an very easy solution for this. Stop deleting posts and threads. I for once will not participate as long as thread I am in are in danger of being locked. basicwiz, no matter how likable he was/is in private was completely unfit as moderator. He acted far too often- I don't understand what is wrong with the Poser forum management, apparently they agreed with his style as moderator! basicwiz actually asked me, who works with Poser 14 to 16 hours 7 days a week what I was doing in the forum! Both in public and in private mail. But at the Marvelous Designer forum, which have been unmoderated for 3 years I was choosen as one of their evangelists. I notice that two posts have been deleted already, from this very thread. The only result of all this will just be an empty forum.

I'm not sure what I said that was so offensive that it had to be deleted. I *thought *I was giving some positive advice. :(

I'll wait to finish that tutorial until I know what I said that was problematic.

Quote - I agree with Basicwiz's post, and most of ssgbryan's...

Gee, I guess I'll never quite know how you feel, as one has vanished.  :glare:

Apparently the ignore button is a failed experiment.  Hopefully I get this in before the thread is locked...

I saw it all go down so I will respond...

There was a post that contained a direct personal attack on a member of the forum. Parts of that post got quoted. AmbientShade obviously decided to delete all of the material that was attacking. This included any post that quoted any of the offending material.

I'm sure unless you heard from him via sitemail there was nothing wrong in what you said... just the fact that he needed to get embedded materials out of the stream.

I can't speak for Shade, but he did what I would have done had it been me back in the saddle. Which, thank god, I am not.

Looks like the moderators are using the DAZ play book.

Answer a question honestly to the best of your ability - get your post zapped. 

Basicwiz - I have received no e-mail

motley crue primal scream

there no civilized, professional, decency in war.
if you play buy rules "moderators" and your enemy's don't ,then your defeating yourself.
there's only one rule in war ,annihilation of your enemy.

 basicwiz your poser forum battles are over. now you half to find a way to let it all go.

Quote -  basicwiz your poser forum battles are over. now you half to find a way to let it all go.

Right you are. I doubt I'll be heard from in the future.

I applaud Ambientshade for quickly resolving the issue once it was reported. This is a definite improvement from times past and should help keep conversations on track and civil when people realize that they may lose their posts because they choose to include personal attacks in them. This should also steer the forum towards welcoming everyone that owns a copy of Poser and use it in their hobby or work.

Personal attacks and name calling just isn't acceptable in a discussion and I'm glad they're finally being responded to in a timely manner. I certainly don't envy your job.

This is not going to be a gripe session thread.

BasicWiz's questions were not posted with the intention of being directly answered, they are meant to be informative, and attempt to give an understanding of how this forum works from a moderator's perspective.

I'm not going to spend 30+ minutes on each of your novelette-length posts trying to decide whether this or that violates tos or strays too far off topic or if I'm being unfair by deleting all of it or just part of it or whatever. 

I'm not your personal editor. If anything in any post seems the least bit disruptive or dead horsey or inappropriate in any way, in this thread or any other, I will delete that post. If you don't agree with that for whatever reason, you're welcome to sitemail me and we'll discuss it privately. It won't get your post undeleted, but it will help give you a better understanding of how to approach similar posts in the future.

Openly discussing issues on reasons why action was taken against you is also inappropraite and will only result in more action taken against you.

For those members that you don't enjoy hearing from, there is an ignore button on every post.

LEARN HOW TO USE IT.

The incessant arguing and nit-picking back and forth skirting the ToS, wording things as though you're a victim being attacked when in fact you were the actual instigator and always insist on getting the last word in to the argument which YOU caused YET AGAIN is called disruptive behavior. I don't care if you think you should have the last word. If you want suspension go ahead and reach for that last word.

Stating your opinion as fact when its clearly obvious that it's your opinion and the only reason you're saying it is to cause hostility, and you know that it causes hostility because the last 50 times you stated that same opinion it lead to 50 other versions of the same argument, THAT is being disruptive, especially when you've been called out on it numerous times in the past by other members and admin alike.

Most arguments that spring up here could EASILY be avoided if everyone simply prefaced their posts with something along the lines of "It's my opinion that..."  

Your opinion about how or why vendors do what they do is not a fact. 

Your opinion about why this or that software is better or worse is not a fact.

Your opinion about why this or that figure is better or worse is not a fact.

Constructive criticism happens when clear examples can be demonstrated and backed up with more demonstratable examples for why this or that would be better. And even then it is still mostly an opinion and should be stated as such, because there are many ways to accomplish the same end results in any given project. 

I've been too lax on several threads, because I've been trying to let mature discussions from all angles on various topics carry on for the few pieces of useful information that is gleaned from it. Clearly that's not the way to go about this. 

I've been asked to moderate this forum with as heavy a hand as needed, so that is what I plan to do. 

~Shane

I have just finished reading, with a great deal of interest, this thread and all comments that are posted. I believe that wiz has some very good points, and other posters are adding to the conversation things that need to be said. I applaud you.

I do not post as often as I like to the forum because of some of the things that have been said to me. I'm not a newbie by any means - I go back to Poser 7 and DS1. Along the way, there have been a lot of things I just cannot wrap my head around, and I sometimes - sometimes not - find my answers on the forum. I DO find a lot of snarky people who seem to believe they are god's gift to the 3D community Having spent a large part of my life in social services, I know when to ignore them. I sincerely believe that many of these people find comfort in the anonymity of the Internet. It gives them a chance to be the jerks they are without fear of reprisal. I suppose that is what good the moderators do for the community.

This is not the only forum that has these issues. A great deal of the forums today have these people, and some are so bad that you just cannot go in and post to them without someone tearing you a new one for their own personal pleasure. It actually isn't so bad here, and even nicer on the Blender forum here at 'Rosity. Overall, I believe that there are many good people here who are willing to help those of us who struggle. I freely admit to earning a great deal here over the years I have been a member. And I think that what wiz has to say is something that needed saying.

I find a lot of issues with a lot of the content I see today. The unrealistic outfits - especially made for the female figures, is nothing I would ever use.It is a given fact that these skimpy and sometimes obscene creations are just simply much easier to model, mainly because there is nothing there. A few straps, a buckle or two, and voila! - we have content! Gimme a break here! I am not saying that all vendors are this way, but to be honest, I cannot remember when i last bought anything from the marketplace because of this. To each his own, I suppose, but I get the nagging feeling I am not the only one with these views. Being an old geezer who is retired and financially independent makes for a good long day at the computer doing what I love. And that is how it shall remain. I still enjoy the forum, and I am continually amazed at some of the idiots that post here. I have to admit for every one of those, there are two more who are helpful. They have been listed here, and I could add quite a few names. I have to admit that even I have been dissed by some of these stellar members everyone is so fond of, but I also think that everyone is entitled to have a bad day. Such is the world...

My two cents...

C~

Shane, I understand your position, but seriously, I think mine got zapped accidentally because I wasn't even joining in that stuff and I never even quoted anyone.  I won't be contacting you by Site Mail over it because I'm not bothered whether it returns or not.

But I really do think mine got caught up by mistake!

None of the posts deleted were on accident. If I haven't contacted you about it yet I will. Y'all have kept me rather busy today.

A note on post editing time limits: To the average user it would be great if there were no limits on editing, but for admin it is required in order to research issues. If there were no time limits, people could abuse that feature and use it to their advantage, making moderator's jobs that much more stressful.

Not deleting posts and threads is not an option. It's a rare forum that is able to self moderate and they are almost always very small forums. Arguments and inappropriate posts happen no matter how stringent the ToS is and they have to be cleaned up. Personally, I won't take part in a forum that doesn't delete inappropriate posts because they always become battle grounds eventually. Spambots and trolls love unmoderated forums. 

~Shane

"Not deleting posts and threads is not an option. It's a rare forum..."

A forum that the poser forum management would do well to examine is CGSociety. Their moderators are far more restrict and delete at most one post a month or something like that. Neither do they have any problem with "spambots and trolls". IMO the current policy of this forum is wrong and to the detriment of us all.

Quote - "Not deleting posts and threads is not an option. It's a rare forum..."

A forum that the poser forum management would do well to examine is CGSociety. Their moderators are far more restrict and delete at most one post a month or something like that. Neither do they have any problem with "spambots and trolls". IMO the current policy of this forum is wrong and to the detriment of us all. 

I think the the big difference between the forums is generally those members have been properly conditioned to respond to each other in a civil manner. If members can't be civil to each other, then more moderation is needed. Over the years members here have been conditioned that it's ok to insult someone if they don't like their views, and if you had hit the report button, it would take days for a response and by the time the thread would spiral out of control and eventually get locked.

If you want a less moderated forum, then the members have to moderate themselves in how they speak to each other and not be so combative in discussions. That's not happening, thus the big headache for Ambientshade that he had to inherit.

So what you're suggesting isn't a good idea at this time, but it's a good thing to shoot for if everyone works towards making the mod's job easier.

Quote - "Not deleting posts and threads is not an option. It's a rare forum..."

A forum that the poser forum management would do well to examine is CGSociety. Their moderators are far more restrict and delete at most one post a month or something like that. Neither do they have any problem with "spambots and trolls". IMO the current policy of this forum is wrong and to the detriment of us all.

Agree agree agree agree agree.

I have been and will continue to be completely mystified by the business approach to this.  For simplicities sake I will use simple numbers.

You once had 50 users.  Now you have 10.  The ten people left keep telling you that they love the way you are doing things.  Occassionally one of the 40 comes back and tells you that they don't.  But at that point, it's 1 against ten.  So instead of listening to those who left, continue to listen to the few that stayed.  

I guess a reason it's so baffling to me is that I have ALWAYS been a person able to reevaluate my positions and actions.  I look at what the likely long term results are as well as short term.  I take other positions into consideration.  I feel this approach is the most beneficial to me.  

Here this forum, and the handling of it seems to me to be the frog in the pot.  We're at a slow simmer now.  And the frog stays in the pot.  Not even willing to say "hey my skin feels a little warm".

Quote - "Not deleting posts and threads is not an option. It's a rare forum..."

A forum that the poser forum management would do well to examine is CGSociety. Their moderators are far more restrict and delete at most one post a month or something like that. Neither do they have any problem with "spambots and trolls". IMO the current policy of this forum is wrong and to the detriment of us all.

 

CGSociety has a long list of forum rules that forbids various subjects explicitly, including anything that is remotely off-topic.

The first thread I read there yesterday evening, the fourth reply to a seemingly innocuous "Should I learn 3ds Max?" is a stout reminder that "best app" discussions are forbidden and "such threads are shut down."

If this forum were run that way, I'm sure it would go more smoothly. But I just know there would be a lot more threads locks and deletions before we got used to the much, much stricter rules. (And I personally like to be able to branch out a little bit into the joke telling and off-topic threads.)

Perhaps that's how it needs to be. But that decision belongs to the people who run this site.

From the sounds of it then, I'm glad I don't visit CGSociety other than the galleries on occasion.

To expect people to contribute to a forum and not allow some drift, is dehumanizing, and I think people should avoid such places, not patronise them.  Forums only exist because of the people who post there and contribute, and the same is true here.

If Renderosity got strict I think they'd dig thermselves into a hole it would be hard to get out of.  We're human beings so we have opinions, and kinda like I pointed out before, people will not be pushed around, they'll simply leave.

The only people who'll stay are those that daren't say a word that might upset someone.  That's dangerous because it means you'd be left with a forum where the mentality of every individual is exactly the same.

Quote -
From the sounds of it then, I'm glad I don't visit CGSociety other than the galleries on occasion.

To expect people to contribute to a forum and not allow some drift, is dehumanizing, and I think people should avoid such places, not patronise them.  Forums only exist because of the people who post there and contribute, and the same is true here.

If Renderosity got strict I think they'd dig thermselves into a hole it would be hard to get out of.  We're human beings so we have opinions, and kinda like I pointed out before, people will not be pushed around, they'll simply leave.

The only people who'll stay are those that daren't say a word that might upset someone.  That's dangerous because it means you'd be left with a forum where the mentality of every individual is exactly the same.

Well I would expect CGSociety would be about helping and exchanging information in their general threads. If you are working on a project and need information quickly, a forum like allow that person to get info quickly without drift or unsolicted opinions.  They're not looking be a "be your friend" group. Right now you have to sift through a lot of unnecessary information and fighting to get what you need, so there's some benefit in taking out the thread drift and just keeping the necessary information.

Quote -  Right now you have to sift through a lot of unnecessary information and fighting to get what you need, so there's some benefit in taking out the thread drift and just keeping the necessary information.

This is very true. But I also remember this forum as being the place where, if you had a question or a problem, you would get the fastest response, often within minutes (depending on time of day).

I would think that if people really wanted to discuss Poser related topics without any thread drift into off-topic areas, they'd post to the Poser Technical forum. But that forum is hardly used. 

There is nothing in CGSociety's's Terms and Conditions that forbids discussions about "best software". The ban against "What software should I use", or "App versus App" threads is an invention solely by the leader of the General Discussion forum. In spite of this the "Should I learn 3Ds Max?" thread is happily summing along and no one interfere.

Try to goggle zBrush vs Mudbox and you get dozens of hits in all kinds of forums. (Including CGSociety) There is a great interest in threads like this and understandable so. Life is simply too short to try out all software. The great composer Hugo Alfvén claimed that he had learned orchestartion by listen to people arguing for their instruments.

One thing people seem to forget, is that a Mod can do whatever they want too, within reason basically.

If a post or thread gets deleted, I would think there was good reason for it. We all know that some sites do far more of it than others, and that can have various reasons. In the end, the reason does not really matter to most forum goers.

The forums were intended as a place of learning, but that has slipped away and morphed into many different things.

I have learned a lot from these forums, both about Poser and the people that post here. Just as many of you have as well.

There are a lot of good people here, so don't take what I am saying the wrong way. But the negativity really needs to just stop. It would be a sad day if the powers that be got fed up and pulled the plug on part, or all of it. That has happened at more than a few sites in the past.

History has a tendency to repeat itself. What part that repeats here, is up to the people that post here.

I run a small model railroad forum and I found that the best tool for dealing with those who cause trouble is putting that person on moderation for a time, where their posts have to be approved before they become public.  I don't know if the Forum software here allows it, so it might not be feasible here.  I have only ever banned blatant spammers and have only deleted a handful of posts in 7+ years.  However, it is a small forum...

Maybe you're doing something simple quite complicated....

For one year I feel very sick to my stomach, my  doctor saying that I had rocks  in gallbladder and he suggested operate and remove the gallbladder , since I did not listen , and for  one year i was trying to avoid the operation  doing diets,  after a horrible year, my gallbladder was removed and I am now 100 points.

this forum having 1 or 2 "rocks" that generate 99% of the conflicts, the best solution would be to remove them once for all, I'm not saying that to kicked renderosity, banned for 3 days after for 30 days and finish blocking access to the section "Poser" (either would be a problem for them since they are not Poser users... ), I think all we would be much better, the communication would be more fluid and again we would not be worrying about them trolls ,moderators are calmer and everyone will be happy, the big step is talk less and  remove those "rocks"

ps.I mention this by way of constructive criticism (just my opinion) not to name anyone this is not considered a personal attack, the moderators should realize who use this forum only to troll

• peace-

Quote - I run a small model railroad forum and I found that the best tool for dealing with those who cause trouble is putting that person on moderation for a time, where their posts have to be approved before they become public.  I don't know if the Forum software here allows it, so it might not be feasible here.  I have only ever banned blatant spammers and have only deleted a handful of posts in 7+ years.  However, it is a small forum...

I was a member of a 16mm Model Railway forum and they ran a similar procedure although, in truth most personal attacks were picked up and corrected before such procedures were needed.  Again though it was a very much smaller forum.

I can understand, and agree with personal attacks being deleted but often the attacks are the result of a dubious post.  AmbientShade highlighted what I felt was a very valid point in that the number of personal attacks would be reduced if it was made clear what was fact and what was opinion.  Everyone is entitled to their veiwpoint but attacking a peice of software on the basis you have some inside knowledge that you cannot divulge might just get someones back up. 

Quote - I was a member of a 16mm Model Railway forum and they ran a similar procedure although, in truth most personal attacks were picked up and corrected before such procedures were needed.  Again though it was a very much smaller forum.

I can understand, and agree with personal attacks being deleted but often the attacks are the result of a dubious post.  AmbientShade highlighted what I felt was a very valid point in that the number of personal attacks would be reduced if it was made clear what was fact and what was opinion.  Everyone is entitled to their veiwpoint but attacking a peice of software on the basis you have some inside knowledge that you cannot divulge might just get someones back up. 

 

Absent any reason to believe otherwise, I always assume that what someone says is merely their opinion. Especially if their statement contains the pronoun "I". :) Things only become facts when there is independent confirmation.

I frequently qualify what I say with "I think" or "I believe" or "In my experience", and so on. But I was taught in university that this unnecessarily weakened my writing because it was assumed that if you used the first person in your statement you were biased and speaking from experience that may be impossible to corroborate. So I sometimes forget to include all those little qualifiers. :D

People who are ripe to be offended will be offended even with a reminder that a statement is only a matter of opinion. Some people will be offended that you disagree with them at all. Some people will appear to be offended when they're just passionate about their own position. It's very hard to judge at times.

And then there are people who just seem to be in a perpetual bad mood. I suppose you could ban them. But often they have useful and valid things to say on many topics... It's a serious challenge balancing all these different factors. I know that much.

@moriador.

I don't have issue with any of what you have said and on the odd occasion when you may have forgotten the qualifers I would assume they were there, I suppose it is because I would judge any comment based on the track record of you posts.  We all have bad days or days when we do not choose the right words to say what we are trying to say.  There are also many for who English is not their first language.  There are however others who have a completely different track record of being unhelpful and quite honestly rude and downright arrogant which does the forum no good at all.  

It is a very small minority, I only have 2 members of my 'ignore' list at present, not because I disagree with their veiwpoints but I have yet to see anything positive they have brought to the forum which, by definion means it is all negative.  The ignore button for me has had a major impact but it is a shame that it is needed at all.

As to balance, yet again I agree, the mods have an impossible task and their balance will often be seen by others as stifiling comment.  All I can say is that I am so very glad that someone is brave or crazy enough to do the job.

Quote - @moriador.

I don't have issue with any of what you have said and on the odd occasion when you may have forgotten the qualifers I would assume they were there, I suppose it is because I would judge any comment based on the track record of you posts.  We all have bad days or days when we do not choose the right words to say what we are trying to say.  There are also many for who English is not their first language.  There are however others who have a completely different track record of being unhelpful and quite honestly rude and downright arrogant which does the forum no good at all.  

It is a very small minority, I only have 2 members of my 'ignore' list at present, not because I disagree with their veiwpoints but I have yet to see anything positive they have brought to the forum which, by definion means it is all negative.  The ignore button for me has had a major impact but it is a shame that it is needed at all.

As to balance, yet again I agree, the mods have an impossible task and their balance will often be seen by others as stifiling comment.  All I can say is that I am so very glad that someone is brave or crazy enough to do the job.

"I am so very glad that someone is brave or crazy enough to do the job."

At Thermopylae, Leonidas defended Sparta with a mere 300 warriors. And we expect Shane to do something equally as unlikely all alone. Brave and crazy, indeed. :) (And Basicwiz should get veteran's benefits for all the battles he's been in.)

Yes, everyone has bad days. And, hell, I'm a native speaker of English, and I write unclearly with alarming frequency. But, yes, your use of the ignore button makes very good sense.

Quote - @moriador.

I don't have issue with any of what you have said and on the odd occasion when you may have forgotten the qualifers I would assume they were there, I suppose it is because I would judge any comment based on the track record of you posts.  We all have bad days or days when we do not choose the right words to say what we are trying to say.  There are also many for who English is not their first language.  There are however others who have a completely different track record of being unhelpful and quite honestly rude and downright arrogant which does the forum no good at all.  

It is a very small minority, I only have 2 members of my 'ignore' list at present, not because I disagree with their veiwpoints but I have yet to see anything positive they have brought to the forum which, by definion means it is all negative.  The ignore button for me has had a major impact but it is a shame that it is needed at all.

As to balance, yet again I agree, the mods have an impossible task and their balance will often be seen by others as stifiling comment.  All I can say is that I am so very glad that someone is brave or crazy enough to do the job.

The 'ignore' button can often cause more trouble than it prevents. You can stop the original post but not the subseqent responses to it. Especially when people quote the OP. So you still read the original post, often out of context and attributed to the wrong person.

Quote - > Quote - @moriador.

I don't have issue with any of what you have said and on the odd occasion when you may have forgotten the qualifers I would assume they were there, I suppose it is because I would judge any comment based on the track record of you posts.  We all have bad days or days when we do not choose the right words to say what we are trying to say.  There are also many for who English is not their first language.  There are however others who have a completely different track record of being unhelpful and quite honestly rude and downright arrogant which does the forum no good at all.  

It is a very small minority, I only have 2 members of my 'ignore' list at present, not because I disagree with their veiwpoints but I have yet to see anything positive they have brought to the forum which, by definion means it is all negative.  The ignore button for me has had a major impact but it is a shame that it is needed at all.

As to balance, yet again I agree, the mods have an impossible task and their balance will often be seen by others as stifiling comment.  All I can say is that I am so very glad that someone is brave or crazy enough to do the job.

The 'ignore' button can often cause more trouble than it prevents. You can stop the original post but not the subseqent responses to it. Especially when people quote the OP. So you still read the original post, often out of context and attributed to the wrong person.

A bit more coding, and you can have the quoted bits showing nothing but "You have this person on your ignore list. To see this quote, unignore" plus link to unignore the person. I have seen it elsewhere, as standard plugin for some of the popular commerical forum packages. Also, a quote function that attributes the quoted passage to the correct person isn't impossible.

But I think we're lucky to get the ignore button. So, I agree that there can be issues with it, yes.  I'd hate to ask for more and come off as totally unappreciative (that's not how I see your post, btw). Besides, just have someone on ignore creates a small, but not insignificant barrier to following the immediate impulse and pressing "quote" or "reply". Even a moment of hesitation can stop many people from bothering with a post that they might have otherwise made without thinking. (At least, I know I've made a few without thinking. :D)

The 'ignore' button can often cause more trouble than it prevents. You can stop the original post but not the subseqent responses to it. Especially when people quote the OP. So you still read the original post, often out of context and attributed to the wrong person.

The ignore button is not perfect and you are right in that you can see the content if it is quoted in a response.  On the other hand in some cases the post is deleated anyway as the ignores I have applied were responsible for many of the personal attacks.  Also, reading the quote it soon becomes the clear that it is just the latest post in a series that said the same thing.

All I know is that the ignore button has improved the forum for me, it may be I am just too sensitive but I have found the negativity to companies, software and vendors to be upsetting and the ignore button has helped me personnally. It may not work for others which is a shame.

I am reminded of the words of Desiderata "Avoid loud and agreessive persons they are vexations to the spirit" and even more appropriate "speak your truth quietly and clearly and listen to others".  Lastly of course "With all it's sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world.  Be cheerful, strive to be happy."

Happy Easter to all those that celebrate it. 

There's nothing wrong with using the ignore button. Most times though, I just don't need it. On the other hand, some people can just work on your last nerve and that's when you'll finally pop off.