I just really like this song 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYnuSsM7tRw

 but I think this song relates well to this thread

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Ng5muAAcg

oh and don't end up like this

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ersbc2bRLs

@RorrKonn:

It doesn't matter what career field I'm in. If you have the skills and work ethic to be successful, that carries over to anything you wind up doing. If you don't, you end up failing at everything you do.

You're doing it again, only this time you're missing the part where I pointed out that what I'm telling you is from experience - it works (for me anyway).  I know it works because that's what I've done my entire life.  Like I said, I'm not rich, I don't pretend to be (and couldn't give a crap about being anyway). Yet I'm still here, I don't depend on benefits, and I'm not in debt either.

I tired benefits now and then, but you know in England, you know what they do when you're unemployed?  They treat you in the most demeaning way they possibly can.  They treat you like a child and constantly threaten the loss of your benefits by forcing you to visit them every two weeks.  When you visit them you're expected to have filled a booklet full of pages recording a list of jobs you applied for since you last visited them (jobs that don't exist thanks to the epic failures "running" the country).  They're not interested in what jobs you apply for just as long as it's the sort of job anyone would be capable of and they'd be able to claim they helped another into work.  Any qualifications or degrees you might have is irrelevant, because after they've pointlessly asked you what your specialitiy is, they then proceed to point out that you'll either fill the form with enough jobs or they'll stop your benefits.

You get the picture, right, non-stop threats?
Thats exactly what they do.

They once asked (read blackmailed/threatened) me into to creating what is called a "CV".  I was quick to point out to them that I'm not a Citroen mechanic, but this had no bearing on them or the humourless, brainwashed, pea-sized blob of matter between their ears.  So anyway, face uncracked by the humour being too dumb to even realise there was any, they sat there rabbiting-on and told me how I should go about making one of those CV thingummies (and as usual, threatened to stop my benefits if I didn't bring it in on my next visit).  So I did, and much to my surprise, they looked at it and was mighty impressed by it.  And you know what, you know how many jobs I landed over they years, on ond off, through taking their advice and sending out that most "impressive" CV?

None, that's right, none :-D

In the end it got to the point where these reptiles were actually starting to effect my health (apparently, it's a common complaint among the unemployed of England that haven't yet resorted to killing themselves).  In the end I had no choice but to tell them to go and f*ck themselves, so that's exactly what I did (and took great pleasure in doing so).  I'll tolerate some things if I'm getting something out of it, but having my health effected by those reptiles isn't one of them.  Again, it's a perfect example of being hounded by the system, and the only reason for it was being dependent on it.  Break away from that and you get to tell them what I told them.  See in England, they bleed you sensless for taxes when working, but don't want to put it back and support you when you need it, despite the fact we're forced to pay for all this stuff to be in place for us in case we need it.

Ya can facepalm and shake those heads all you like, lads, but the fact of the matter is that although I don't have a lifestlye some would be happy with, I do have a lifestyle that I'm happy with, one that is massively more carefree than anyone else I know, and that will only get better once I ditch England and buy my own place on foreign shores.  Having a family wouldn't change anything, having a family wouldn't suddenly stop my way of doing things from working, I'd just have do more of it.

It's not me that's odd, it's you lot, you're basically just a buch of crazy peasants :-D

@RorrKonn
That first track is excellent, such a shame it doesn't translate to reality, such a shame people are still prepared to feed what what they know is bad and not support what they know is good.  Such a shame they all think they need to do "what everyone else does".

You know what I'm spinning on my turntable right now, something from the "charts" perhaps?

Nope, I'm spinning one of my favourite vinyls, and trust me when I tell you there's nothing like a spot of soft French vocal and composition to make you think streight.  Unlike those that "do what everyone else does" I have a real Hi-Fi to listen to mine on - not a horrible computer gadget.  You can of course listen to it on YouTube, but it's just not the same as seeing her spin, and really hearing her sing - like what I'm doing right now!

Click Here lads, you know you want to - it's something from the better times!

I live in the UK and for a very brief period I had to sign on just to have my National Insurance paid.  I had no other benefits as my wife was working and I had savings.  I did two visits each two weeks apart and was then told "you are clearly looking for a job so we only need to see you once a month, you will clearly find something."  I never went back I found something.  Over my last five years of working I was 'let go' four times and each time I was unemployed for less that a month.  In a career spanning 42 years I was unemployed a total fifteen weeks and twelve of those were after being made redundant and convincing perspective employers I was serious about working for about a third of my previous salary.

I have never had a problem with working for someone else, or taking orders and with only a couple notable exceptions always respected the managers I worked for.

I never wished to be self employed but I do admire those that are and work hard to be successful, but even then you need luck.  You can work as hard as you like but if a client decides not to pay even the best self employed people can struggle. 

I am happy I live in the UK, I have travelled enough to know there are some better places but most are worse.  

People are lucky on occasions but in general the world does not come to you door just because you feel it owes you a living and most 'free' living is actually just living off someone else. 

@RorrKonn
"I've been a Artist my hole life .that started long before home PC's and CGI .it's all I know."

I just wanted to thank you for not using that spellchecker ;-)
The old RorrKonn is back!

@Hornet
I don't know when that happened, but it's years since I got benefit from them.  There's absolutely no way on earth you would have done that at the place where I used to go, and from what I read somewhere, it's going to get even worse because they plan to make them travel there to be hounded by them every day.  In other words, more emotional blackmail designed to shove the needy off' benefits they paid for and are entitled to.

No person is going to cope with that for very long.  I mean, barely a visit went by without one of them almost copping a smack in the mouth from a member of the public - even back when I used the place.  I dread to think what it's like now, and worse still, what it's going to be like.  But anyway, even talking or being reminded about those a-holes pisses me off, I have no interest in them, they can do as they wish, it won't effect me.

Anyway, back to the main topic, nothing else I can say other than what I said from the start.
Don't be a muppet - but good luck either way ;-)

 @Pumeco

There are two sides to everything, there are those that are genuinely down on their luck and others where complete families have had no one work for two or three generations but that's getting into politics which is a no-no here.

As to the intention of the thread, well I can see a lot better why someone would use Adobe and why the CC service would be a valid option.  I cannot see it being an option for me but I can see situations where I would suggest to others that they might look at this as an option. 

 I think anyone just starting out and wants to be a Pro CGI Artist today.

Don't think it would be a bad idea to go on the Autodesk ,

zBrush and all the Pro forums and ask around.to see what's what.

for got my sound track :(

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJDDxHIaaVk

To be fair, I don't even dislike the programs those companies make.  It's obvious they're good otherwise people wouldn't use them.  Photoshop is super-cool, Maya is super-cool, I know that.  But I don't own a copy of Photoshop because I don't like Adobe, the way they suck on their userbase and the way they do things.  The licencing and manipulation is way beyond my tolerance threshold - waaaaaaaaay beyond.

People shouldn't stand for that, and thankfully the vasty majority, don't.

Where do you get that they suck on their user base? Adobe software is cheaper than its ever been before. WAY cheaper - to the point were there's no real reason most artists shouldn't be able to afford it now - at least those who create art for a living or a 2nd income. Should Adobe just be giving it away to everybody? It takes money to develop good software and keep it updated. Money to pay their coders, money to market and advertise. None of that comes cheap, especially not programmers.

Before their cloud system, a full license for Photoshop averaged about $1200 or more. Just for Photoshop. That's it - you get that copy. No upgrades, minus some bug fixes here and there, unless you pay to upgrade to the next version - which usually cost about half what a full license would cost. Look on amazon - there's still copies of Photoshop CS5.5 selling for $1700.  Most people can't afford that, so they don't upgrade very often. 

Now with the cloud system you get Photoshop for $20 a month. That's $240 a year. That's cheaper than Poser. And you get all their updates and new features along with that, whenever they come available - which, looking at their release schedules, they update it pretty regularly, and don't charge a penny more. Who can't afford $20 a month? Most people spend that much or more on Starbucks in a few days time. And if you want their entire suite of software - with regular updates - it's only $50 a month. Along with free cloud storage and a site to host your portfolio if you want to use it.

So what if you don't have the shiny little discs anymore. Good for Adobe. That's saving on pollution cause those discs are made of plastic and chemicals, along with all the packaging they come in. Lose or damage the discs and you're buying another copy, along with another license. And it's only good for one machine. With the cloud you can install it on 2 machines - from what someone a while back stated. I thought it allowed you to install on more than that, but 2 is fine for me. I only use 1 anyway. And I don't have to worry about my machine dying and losing my license - like Microsoft is trying to do. They have a cloud service too with MS Office, but if you want your hard copy full license, it's good for one time use. Let something happen to the machine you just installed that license on and you're buying a new license. Or you can sub to their cloud service and put it on any machine. I don't like that, so I stick with Office 2007. It does everything I need anyway.

Autodesk is doing the same thing with Maya now. They have Maya LT for $30 a month or $240 a year. It's not the full-featured Maya, but it's plenty for indie game modelers/animators and you get automatic updates. And from what I've been reading, it's actually a better deal than buying the full one-time license of Maya LT for $800, because the subscription service comes with additional features that the full license doesn't provide. I'm partial to Maya because it's what I learned to do this stuff on in school, and because I have a crap-ton of books on it filling my book shelf. I'm comfortable in it - I know where everything is, and it usually doesn't piss me off too much like most of the other modelers out there do - free and paid. The only things I don't have books on are the features that have come out since those books were written. Before Maya I was using Wings3D - god what a nightmare. I don't even touch that anymore. I know some people love it. But some people have never tasted steak either. 

So for me personally, I think it's a pretty good deal. I don't mind connecting to the internet, I do it every day anyway. And if I was buying a full license for these programs I'd be having to make monthly payments to a credit card service, for a whole lot bigger price than subscribing to the software itself.

It hasn't stopped game companies from charging a monthly fee for their games, Most people don't have a problem with that - as Blizzard and EA and a slew of others have demonstrated over the last 15+ years, charging everyone $10 to $15 a month to play a game. And they aren't giving you any cloud storage and you still have to buy a physical copy of the game every time there's a new expansion, which will run you about $50 to $60 on average, on top of the monthly sub, cause it don't work without the sub.  So why shouldn't software companies be allowed to do the same thing? That's just silliness to be mad about it.  

 @ AmbientShade

I agree with most of that, but I am not so sure on the lower pollution angle.  Not supplying a disc and having cloud just moves the pollution to the manufacture of hard drives to store the data.  Downloading also saves the production and shipping of a DVD in theory but again, the program is stored on a server somewhere and users often make a back up copy locally.

Nit picking I guess  but I have always bulked a claims we should buy modern new cars as they give more miles to the gallon and thus help save the planet.  That only works if you leave the metal and energy used in making the new car, along with all the paint used plastics and all the rest out of the equation.  Often claims for saving pollution is nothing of the sort it just moves the point of pollution elsewhere.

Pumeco - It is fortunate for you that you are able to provide for yourself working solo.  I question the wisdom of broadcasting your method though.  I think you are in what is ultimately a zero sum situation.  Advocating that others follow your example could put in up against rule 3 in the story of the frozen Russian bird. (Impish wink)

Getting Photoshop for $240 isn't cheaper than a permanent Poser licence, it's not cheaper because you're not "getting" any permanent licence at all.

The reason they're "sucking on their userbase" is because they're not giving them the option to buy it outright.  They won't even let you keep it as a permanent licence once you've covered the cost of what would be a permanent licence.  If you're going to debate these things, you need to take into account what was already pointed out, that being what I just reiterated and the fact that there is no reason that Adobe CC users shouldn't be enttled to a permanent licence once they've covered the cost of one.  It's not the fact that they're offering this cloud crap that is the issue, it's that they're not giving options.

As was already pointed out, Unreal Engine are a perfect example of fairness under a subscription.  They're the polar opposite of the Adobe greed-machine.  You can't just ignore those facts, Shane, you can't pretend these things don't exist.  There's only two types of people who'll side with Adobe in this crap, and that's those that are already being sucked on, and those that are planning to be sucked on.  I think deep down, it just makes them feel better about themselves because they know they're being taken for a ride.  But ask any of those people to give even one good reason why they shouldn't have the option to buy outright, or why they shouldn't be entiteld to a permanent licence once they've covered the cost of one - ask them and they'll fail.

They fail because there is no reason (other than blatant user-sucking greed).

• Go on, give one good reason why there should be no "option" to buy outright if that's what suited you?
• Go on, give one good reason why after they've sucked the cost of a permenent licence out of you, you shouldn't be entitled to one?

Unless you can answer those qustions stating the reasons why (which you can't), they are a greed-machine, and you shouldn't support greed-machines.  The practice of completely obliterating the option to buy outright bloody-well ought to be illegal, nevermind tolerated.  Yes, it's good that some people will find the software more accessible for them, I get that, and if it works for you too, great.  But buying outright is just as ideal for some, as renting is for you - the option should be there.

Unless you can answer those two questions (and good luck with that), the situation should be perfectly clear, just give 'em the finger like most of us do.  Anyway, that's my last word on the subject because it's clear-cut, couldn't be clearer if it were diamond cut.  I honestly don't even need to wait for the reply because I already know you cannot give any reason other than the reason I already spelled out.

Just in case you actually go ahead with this crap, here's a fitting T-shirt for you ;-)

@Jaager
Yeah, don't you go stealing my secrets to the good life now :-P

The no-permanent license argument is valid, to an extent. But it's a rather weak argument, imo, because it only provides you with a license for that version. If you want to upgrade you'll be forking out another sizable chunk of change to do so. 

I already have a permanent license to Adobe CS4. It has Photoshop, Illustrator, Dreamweaver, Fireworks, Acrobat Pro, Flash, InDesign and a couple other titles that I never use. I mostly just use Photoshop and Illustrator. Somewhere around $2,200 was the cost for all of it. I never upgraded to CS5 cause that would have been another $1200 or so, and CS6 would have been the same. And I'd likely still be paying for all of that and STILL not have the most recent version. And somewhere I have an old license for Photoshop 7. Not that it does me any good now, I haven't used it in years. 

Don't kid yourself that Unreal isn't following the same model as Adobe and Autodesk, and a lot of other software out there. They've jumped on the subscription bandwagon too. Unreal used to be free for everybody. There was no $20 sub fee before - all of that is new, just within the last year or so. Sure you can pay your $20 one time and not pay anything else - until you want to update to their latest features or their next version. Why did they decide to start charging $20 a month for that now? And you still can't publish anything with it until you buy the full license. I was using Unreal before they started charging for it. Unity3D is still free for everyone until you publish a game - that's the way Unreal used to be too. And now more people are moving over to Unity.

So if you'd rather spend $1200 to $2200 one time, just so you can have the discs and none of the updates, vs $240 to $500 a year for everything they offer, that's up to you. How many years does that license get you before you have to spend another $1200 to $2200 to stay relevant and up to date? I'm definitely not trying to be an Adobe salesman tho, use whatever you'd like. I just don't agree that they're being greedy, and nearly 1 million other subscribers don't see it that way either. 

But this is where software is moving, and a few nay-sayers aren't going to change it. It's cheaper to make it subscription based than to constantly be publishing hundreds of thousands to millions of discs and packaging with every new release. And movies and music are going the same route, because DVD and CD sales have been dropping year after year, while subscription services like Netflix and Hulu and Amazon just continue to grow. People can't afford the big price tags all this software can run into, but it doesn't make the cost of producing all that software any cheaper, so those companies have to come up with new ways of getting their software out there for people to afford it in order for them the continue turning a profit and continue producing better software that people want to use. And yes it does help the environment in terms of reducing pollution, at least a little bit, because most people don't have stacks and stacks of hundreds of hard drives sitting around their houses that will eventually wind up in a landfill somewhere. I mean technically, the computers we use add to the pollution just by increasing the energy consumption and all that, but you can't have the tech we use today without that.  

So that's the real problem, you're following it because that's the way you think it's all going.
Fact is, it isn't, and it never will, you can even bet your life on that.

Do you know why you can bet your life on it?  It's because free software alternatives will always ensure what you think is going to happen, never will.  The only people who will ever have to deal with "subscriptions" are those that take out those subscriptions - which is another reason you shouldn't.  I'll never face the cost of a software subscription for as long as I live.  I will never subscribe to anything that doesn't give me a permanent licence, and I'll never find myself in a position that forces me to, either.  That's the beauty of free software like GIMP and Blender, no person and no single entity can make decisions for it.

• They're free and therefore subscripton free, and always will be.
• They're also evolving quicker than most commercial programs.

As for all music going the way of the Apple iTunes greed-machine.  Nope.  It's already reached the point where people have had enough, people are now looking back and realising how silly they are for purchasing "virtual" music and how bad it sounds.  Manufacturers are starting to release turntables again, vinyl releases are skyrocketing, and the large music retailers are prepaing, as we speak, to take back their profits from Apple etc by bringing massive stocks of vinyl back to the shop floor.

And naturally, the manufacturing of those turntables, those vinyls, those record sleeves that hold the vinyls, the printing shops that print the sleeves for the vinyls, the need for shop assistants to look after the shops that sell the vinyls, all of that, it creates jobs, jobs that disintegrated due to greed-machines being allowed to run riot and do whatever they like.  You know what's really funny, is that vinyl was around before Apple even existed, yet it will still be around when they're long gone along with everyones "virtual tunes".  The fact that you think these greed-machines even have the power to finish-off physical media is absolutely hilarous, because Vinyl for one thing, is going nowhere - it's already survived them and growing stronger by the day (just like I said it would).

Best thing you can buy an Apple iThing user for Christmas, is a Turntable, just a little tip for those wondering what to buy.
They'll thank you for it profusely after having the experience of physically browsing through real vinyl in a real store.

Are you thinking clearly yet?
If not, I give up.

Click Here - it's a vinyl from the better days that are thankfully making a return - helps you to think clearly.

I'm following it because I know what quality software is, and what it takes to produce it. When you can show me a shareware program that does everything the commercial titles do with the same level of ease and functionality, then I'll be right there to download my copy and save my cash. But until then I'll stick with what I know works best and provides me the most results with the least amount of headache. I don't mind paying for quality. You can call it corporate greed all you want. We're all entitled to our own opinions. 

With respect, you did ask for one.

One of the main reasons the economy is in the state it's in, is because of greed-machines.  Far too much money is being channelled into companies that are already far more powerful than they should ever be allowed to get.  You feel the result of this crap but you choose to feed it further.  I already said I get that you like the software, I even admited I like the software too, I won't patronise them though.

I knew from the moment I read your opening post you were going to subscribe.  It would have been cool to see you change your mind, but it's fine all the same, it's you that'll be paying for it after all (in more ways than one).  Just a friendly word to you though, about being led by what you think is popular.  This is a recent image, taken at the beginning of the vinyl resurgence Apple users tend not to be aware of.  It features young people flocking to buy vinyl.  The vinyl they're buying comprises of both new and old releses, yet some people are so caught up in their little download world that they don't even know this better world exists.

On the left is the sort of thing you are planning to support, on the right is what freedom, a healthy economy, and a better life is all about.  As long as you realise what you're feeding and being sucked into, that's ok, just as long as you don't think everyone does it, or will ever do it ;-)

^If you were really concerned about the corporate greed you would buy neither... whether you buy albums or MP3s, you're still dealing with the record industry that takes advantage of their artists. Bad example there ;) Business are in business to make money, and they have to fund their businesses otherwise they are out of business. 

I'm paying $10 a month for the adobe plan, so that's $120 a year. If you would have bought previous versions it would have been $1200 without upgrades. So I can use the most current version of photoshop for 12 years rather than $1200 up front and then you would have to pay more in 2-3 years to keep current. Doesn't sound greedy as it's cheaper and it brings more people in that could not afford it so it's better for everyone and keeps the piracy down. Also they're able to keep their funding going because of the monthly income instead of people just buying once and then waiting a few years to drop another $600-1000 for an upgrade.

Here is something to consider.

Pumeco is self employed and knows about unemployment. No one in the United states can collect unemployment if they are self employed, and most people could not tell you how it works if they never collected..

If you are self employed in the United States, you pay twice the taxes someone does that has an employer. Making it far more expensive to work for yourself.

Unemployment is a federal program in the United States, but each state has different rules about it. In some states you must get 40 signatures a week from places you applied and turn them in or you don't get a check (and you might also get removed from the program). There is a maximum cap on unemployment in the US that hardly pays the bills unless you are single and live in a shack with a wood stove in the summer... SO, how are you supposed to get 40 signatures in the states that require it? God help you if you don't live in a city and have to drive to get them...

On another note...

Graphic design, 3D, etc all have standards. Photoshop is one of them. Just as Maya, Houdini and many others are.

Large printing companies want specific file formats, or they get rejected. Yes you may be able to do them in other software in 2D.

Working on a team requires file formats match between members of the team and that the production schedule is maintained. Not so much a problem in 2D, but it is a huge one in 3D.

You can't do something in other programs if they don't support something used in the project, which is why there are standards in the first place.

Standards have little to do with greed and everything to do with getting the job done with as little headache as possible.

Yes you can do a lot of things with Gimp/Blender/etc. But what others have said about why Adobe/Autodesk/Side Effects/Maxon/etc have more merit than greed.

There are things that Photoshop can do, that Gimp cannot. 

Just as there are things Side Effects/Autodesk/etc can do, that Blender never will because it is not open source and is trademarked/patented/etc.

If you need to do any of those things, Blender is completely useless in that case.

How would you import a Houdini or Max file into Blender???? You can't..... Max is trademarked and Blender can't do a lot of what Houdini can.

If all that free software works for you, that's great. But on this side of the pond it wont get you real far in any business.

Look at Houdini's demo reel for 2014, then try any of that in Blender.

Some of it you can do. Some of it will take you a while to write the plugins, just so it will do it. Some of it will take you so long to set up, you might forget what you were doing in the first place.

http://vimeo.com/102943879

@David
I'm not self-employed, I have zero income and am living off savings until I leave England, I refuse to start a new venture in this country, these days.

As for the other stuff, I give up, the image and text in my previous post says it all as far as I'm concerned.
People make up their own minds no matter what, but hopefully it opened a few eyes.

Ironically, you can work in electronic media just about anywhere.

Like I said, I give up!

There's only so much blatant obviousness that can be denied :-D
I'm just super-pleased things are taking a turn for the better, for the rest of us.

I don't care what's popular - i'm not a hipster. I care what works. And as I said before, when you can show me free software/shareware that does what the professional grade titles do, then I'll start using it. It's not like I'm oblivious to the freeware/shareware out there. I've used a lot of it, from GIMP to Blender. And none of it does half of what the pro software can do. They simply don't have the funding to keep up with it. Because even tho you're getting Blender for free, it still takes a LOT of money to write it. All those coders aren't coding it out of the goodness of their heart. They all have bills to pay and families to feed just like most everybody else.

I also buy software from indie developers when it's decent software that I actually need and does something my other software doesn't do. Topogun is a good example of that. I paid $99 for it a few years ago and don't regret it one bit, even with all it's bugs. It's one guy that develops it. I don't know if that's still the case - he may have sold to or partnered with a bigger company by now, but that was the case when I bought it. 

And Adobe and Autodesk aren't responsible for the economic situation of the world, not by a long shot. They also don't have a monopoly on the kind of software they produce. They have plenty of competition, and a lot of that competition is much more affordable to the average user. So if it was really an issue of money, more people would be using the less expensive titles. No one can stay in business for too long selling crap products, no matter what it is they're selling, cause eventually people will realize it's crap and stop paying for it.

I'm not an Apple fan either. I don't currently use or buy any Apple electronics. I had a macbook because I was required to buy a macbook for school. I wasn't happy about that - mainly because I hate laptops - but I didn't have a choice if I wanted to go to that school. It died in 2010 and I've never bothered to get it fixed or replace it. Right now it's in my closet in pieces, where it's been since it died 4 years ago. At home I still used a desktop PC even when I was working on school projects. The only Apple product I use is iTunes and I don't buy anything from the iTunes store. Can't remember the last time I even logged into it. The only reason I use iTunes is because I find it easier to use than any of the other mp3 players out there. I especially hate windows media player. My current PC is custom built by me. I ordered each piece from Newegg and have been upgrading it as needed and as funds allow since I first built it back in 2009, when my old Gateway - which was barely 3 years old at the time - died on me for being crap and overheating.

And as for vinyl - http://qz.com/103785/hipsters-are-buying-vinyl-records-but-they-arent-listening-to-them/

I had plenty of it 25 years ago back in high school. All of them are crap now. I live in the south where it gets extremely hot, then extremely cold, then hot again - often within the same week, especially this time of year, and humidity is hell. Vinyl warps and once it warps it's useless. On top of that I hate using plastic anything and try to reduce it as much as possible, and I take full advantage of my local recycling plant for the plastics and glass and other recyclables that I do use. I'm not against the use of petroleum for energy like a lot of people are, but I do believe in moderation. I welcome the digital age because it reduces the amount of pollution and waste dumped into the environment every day. So all those vinyl records you hipsters are buying up because its a new fad and "retro" - most of it will eventually wind up floating in the oceans or buried in some landfill, adding more pollution to an already sick environment. Vinyl - along with all the other plastic out there - is a petroleum product, remember? - which takes centuries or longer to break down. So enjoy it all you like if it makes you feel better about yourself, but I've never heard of a digital file killing any sea life, and it probably never will. 

Anyway, no reason to continue debating the issue. You're not going to change my mind and I'm not going to change yours, nor do I care to try. I've got plenty of work to keep me busy and without sleep all week long. 

@Shane
Regards how damaging greed-machines are, you need to look-up how much Apple, Adobe, Google, and Microsoft are worth.  That money gets channelled to them in such mass amounts through either manipulation, monopoly, digital handcuffs or other nasty business practices that only companies as big as they are can get away with.  I prefer it when the money is distributed among the economy in a good, even fashion, because that's what a good economy is.  I've never been a fan of all that money being en-route to a select few greed-machines.

Regards the hipster thing. I recommend a source of news that treats it's readers with some intelligence then. You could use that other famous greed-machine, Google, and search for vinyl comeback, resurgence, or whatever term you wish and you'll see a different story.  That is assuming Google aren't selectively hiding the thousands of articles about it from the Americans.  But yup, you're right, I'm not going to change your mind and you're not going to change mine, either.  I'm pleased a conclusion was reached, but man, you dragged it out a bit considering you was gonna get that subscription all along ;-)

Bang Your Head

@Pumeco:  My original question was only to ask if anyone had experienced problems with the service or how their experience with it in general was. It was never intended to become a debate. 

You do realize YouTube is also owned by that famous "greed-machine" Google, correct? So you're still supporting them every time you watch a YouTube video. Even with ad blockers, they're still making a few cents on every video that's watched. Why are you still watching YouTube videos again? 

I don't agree with some of MS and Google's business practices, but they aren't the only ones, and some of those things are forced on them by the powers that be - they don't always have a choice if they want to continue operating, due to the nature of their business and various laws that exist that are beyond their control. But that's getting into politics and we're not going to go there in this forum.

Just because a company is rich and successful doesn't make them greed machines, nor does it mean they acquired their wealth through any kind of deceit. There will always be corporate greed - that doesn't make all corporations greedy. Anyone that develops something should have the right to do with it whatever they choose - if that means getting rich off their creation then so be it. It belongs to them. None of the companies mentioned here are anywhere close to being a monopoly. Maybe try looking up the real definition of a monopoly sometime. If they were anything like a monopoly then they would be the only option for the services they provide. They aren't. They just happen to be some of the most successful at it. And if it weren't for the innovations that companies like Autodesk and others like them have produced over the last few decades we wouldn't have a lot of the technology we have today. They do a lot more than just entertainment software. They're also in a lot of architectural and engineering software as well. Their software technology has been responsible for a lot of good things, both for the environment and for the people that use it, and from what I've read, they are quite generous with the money they earn. They don't have to be. They have every right to keep every penny they make for themselves if that's what they want to do. I prefer companies who are generous with their earnings and give back to their environment, but I don't demonize companies who don't just because they're rich. 

That's an interesting look, RorrKonn, sort of semi-organic, pretty cool!

I was too tired to continuie last night, but anyway.  Regards that stuff about digital downloads not killing sealife, no, it just helps destroy the economy which in turn takes human life instead (I'll post proof only if you want me too).  I wonder how many vinyls could have been made from the "petroleum-based" tyres that wear out every few years on your Toyota?  Or the billions upon billions of drinks bottles that are sold everyday?

I think Shane should patent that argument, it could be profitable in the future when Apple will need it to scare their "useds" away from vinyl.

As for vinyl ending up in landfill, nope.  The only time that happens is if it get's broken.  One of the inherent beauties of the vinyl format and the freedom of using it, is that you can buy it, you can sell it, you can give it to your friends, swap it with your friends, trade it in for other vinyl, whatever you like.  And there's not a thing Apple or any other manipulative greed-machine can do about it.  It's one of those things they've never had control over and never will have control over.  The only thing they can do is scare their "useds" away from it.

As for vinyl being a fad, nope, a "fad" is something that comes but doesn't hang around for long.  Vinyl has been around longer than most of us have, It's still here and growing yet again, so I think it's fair to say vinyl has earned it's reputation as the longest living format next to the book - no faddery there then.  A "fad" is things like a touchscreen device and DRM formats that become obsolete as soon as a manufacturer says so.  A Fad is Microdick trying to force desktop users to accept touchscreen mentality on a desktop, and failing to do so (and having to give them their Start button back as a result).

I'd like to leave it at that, but like I say, proof of everything I just said is available if Shane requests it.

Arrrgh, dammit Shane, stop crossposting :-D

The Google services I use are Search, Maps, and YouTube, and not since at least two years back have they ever been able to use me in return.
That's right, I use Google but Google doesn't use me, and I have no problem with people earning money from my clicks anyway - I'm pleased about it.

Just getting back to the original subject, MaleM3dia is right about the price of the subscription. I pay about 13€ a month with taxes, it will take quite a while until I reach the original price. And I have all updates free up to then. Works for me.

People who write software like to be payed, and if they are very good  they are probably payed very well, just ask our Master of Shaders. Companies either need a lot of enthusiasts or a constant cash flow. Brecht van Lommel, the deveoloper of Blender's Cylces renderer works for a commerical company right now, probably because he could need the money. Things work this way.

Pumeco, I could not go your way, simply because I do not have enough savings to live from it. Enjoy you freedom, but keep in mind that most people don't have that freedom. 

I hear you bantha, no worries :-)

"That's right, I use Google but Google doesn't use me, and I have no problem with people earning money from my clicks anyway - I'm pleased about it."

They aren't using you necessarily, but they are benefiting from you, because you are contributing to Google's fortunes every time you watch one of their videos. There are a lot of individuals that make a lot of money through posting their videos on youtube (which I think is a great thing, don't get me wrong - it's helped a lot of people earn a living, or at least help supplement their livings, who otherwise might not have been able to over the last several years) but for every 1 cent each of those people make on YouTube, Google is making at least 2 cents, and likely a lot more than that. They're providing a free service that helps a whole lot of people - to include yourself - yet you call them greedy, but at the same time turn around and help them get even richer by utilizing their services. Do you see the flaw in your logic there? No, you probably don't... Just like all those Occupy kids complaining about corporate greed and the 1%'ers while tweeting on their iPhones and posting videos about it to youtube and facebook on their macbooks, all the while complaining that they're being oppressed...

And thumbs up to everything Bantha just said. Most of us don't have the luxury of sitting around all day complaining about how horrible rich people and corporations are. We have to work for a living, to support ourselves and all the others who think they should be entitled to something they didn't earn, just because they exist. 

And no, I've never once put a tire in a landfill. We have recycling centers that are specifically designed for that purpose. Same with used motor oil. But I've seen plenty of boxes of old records tossed in the bins at the dump many times over the years. Next time I'll take a picture of it for you. 

@Shane
Like I said, I give up.  You keep forgetting the part where I'm not rich, and you keep forgetting the part where I still have the luxury to do what I do despite the situation.  Yes, of course I agree with Bantha, he's spot-on, most people don't have the freedom to do what I'm doing.  The whole pont in what I've been trying to get across are the reasons people might not have that freedom.  You're richer than I am, Shane, you can at least afford to run a vehicle, so you must be!

I haven't been able to afford a vehicle for years now, it was necessary to drop it if I wanted to be able to sustain myself.  I'm not having a go at you for your tyres, either, I was just putting into perspective how ridiculious it was to use landfill and petroleum as a way to attack something that is good news and is making a comeback.  That link you gave was clearly written by someone with a chip on their shoulder, likely an iPod fanboy - I only had to read the first line to know what crap they were talking.

Assuming they're not blocking Americans from seeing it, here's the real news, what's really going on, proof that people have had enough and are wising-up:
Click Here - and check-out the title.

Now wasn't that link a lot better?

If so, and there is anyone here who bought their loved ones an Apple device last year, you can make it up to them this year and buy them some freedom.

Click here this one's not bad, quite a lot of reviews too!
Buy 'em that and show 'em why you did it, they'll thank you for it when they drop the Apple shackles.

That link said pretty much the same thing the link I posted said. A lot of them are buying for nostalgia purposes. No mention of corporate greed or none of that. 

Ok, so have they started making turntables that ride in your car too, to play all these new records on?

I hated vinyl back when I was in high school and couldn't switch to CD fast enough. No crackles and pops. The sound is a lot clearer. You're tellin me I should want to go BACK to that crap? lol, no, sorry. 

What shackles are you talking about anyway? It doesn't have to be played on iTunes just cause you bought it from there. I don't actually buy music from itunes but I have in the past. It takes about 5 minutes to burn a cd. I've never had a problem copying any music into mp3 or burning it to CD or throwing it on an mp3 player, or my phone or my flash drive, or all 3 if i want. I don't actually have a portable mp3 player anymore - don't need one. I have a 4gb flash drive that plugs right into my stereo in the truck. Can add and remove anything I want from it. Don't even remember the last time I burned an actual CD, except for backing up files but I use blu ray for that now. 

The difference between the two links can be summed-up in the opening line of the one you gave!  Vinyl doesn't suck, and only 15% are buying them for collectible reasons, that means 85% are using them for what they're designed for, and it's growing faster than the current system can handle.

I'm not getting into the debate of why Vinyl (an analogue format) is better than digital.  Both digital and anlogue have thier flaws, not just one of them, so in the end it comes down to what sounds better, and that's analogue (this is why the worlds finest audio equipment is all 100% analogue).  There's a whole heap of stuff about digital shackles as well, so I'm not going into that, either.

Regards listening in the car, if you have a physical analogue product like vinyl, you can copy that to any recordable format you wish.  You can degrade it into iTunes format, burn it to a CD, even record it to tape (which is what I do as it makes it sound even better, tape being an "analogue" recording format).  There's nothing to stop you listening to what you bought in your car.  But people who buy vinyl to digitise it are missing the whole point about enjoying "pure analogue audio".  For a little piece of paradise, all a person has to do is buy a turntable, an amplifier (which must have a physical BASS and TREBLE knob for maximum enjoyment), and a nice set of speakers, preferably something that can go down to at least 50Hz, but the lower the better.  My own are 25 year-old 40Hz-18Khz beauties.  But those three items is how you enjoy music as it's meant to be enjoyed.  What a lot of peole don't realise is that Digital audio almost always has a lot of "sweetening" applied to the recording using DSP.  The equivalent of that in analogue is to buy an "analogue exciter" - then your jaw drops - and the goosebumps cannot be stopped.  Buying a turntable and listening to it though a computer is 100% pointless.

This vinyl is absolutely spine-tingling the way I get to listen to it, in analogue, exciter engaged - goosebumps - really - you have no idea.
But anyway, you're impossible - best of luck.

 Well to me Vinyl sound CP when compared with CD and abysmal CP when compared with SACD on my surround sound system.  All vinyl gives me is surround hiss and clicks and a lot of grief.   Stick with vinyl by all means but it all but died once and, with decent turntables getting more and more difficult to get hold off and more a more expense as the supply continues to dry up it isn't about to make a stunning resurrection anywhere but in the niche market. 

You will have a different view, of course, but this patient is on life support only. 

I like Norm & Cliff type discussions on the forum but it can be sometimes quite frustrating when the original OP was of interest- please if this thread is no longer serving its purpose can it be closed.

@Hornet
Then you desperately need a better system, or better ears, and better still, an exciter.
Read facts, forget opinions :-)

@Ironsoul
I think that one is as good as done.

 @pumeco

No I know my system well, listened to a lot before I purchased and know what I paid for it. I also know that is outstrips vinyl in the exciting stakes hands down.  Just because you have strong opinions does not make everyone else wrong. 

@Ironsoul.

I agree this thread has been informative and answered the questions and know is done.  I am opting out anyway.

@Hornet
And technical facts do not change because you think otherwise, like I said, you need a better system or better ears.  Have a word with world renowned and respected AMS/NEVE systems, maybe they'll convince you which is the superior technology between analogue and digital.

@All
In an attempt to get the thread back on topic it would be best all round if everyone did exactly that.  You can't expect to show support for something bad and rave about it, and badmouth something good, and trash it.  The facts will always prove that "bad is bad" and "good is good" - and no amount of tying to make yourseves feel better about what you support will change any of that.

I've tried to hint numerous times that I'm fed up with the conversation, wished him luck regardless, but if what is good continues to get badmouthed in favour of what is bad, it's obvious people are going to say something about that (those of us with morals I mean).  Don't speak further on the subject, just stick to the Adobe CC thing and that's the way the conversation will remain.  Just don't try convincing people it's ok in order to make yourself feel better about what you plan to support.

If that's what you want to do, you do it.
So for the final time (I hope), good luck with whatever you do, Shane, truly, even going the Adobe route.

Pumeco, you can't even afford a car, and you're lecturing Americans on how to live? You even suggested living out in Texas on a piece of land. LOLOLOL.

I'm going to guess that you've never been to Texas and haven't got a clue what the land is like. Yes, there's a ton of cheap land in Texas. $200 an acre. And you can be 500 miles away from any other human being. But you know why it's cheap and no one lives on it? Because you can't live on it. DIg a well -- no water, because the water table was emptied to provide for a city 500 miles away. Wanna grow potatoes for your chip butty? Not gonna happen. You can't grow anything but wild grass and tumble weed in sand and clay that suffers a 5 month long dry season with daytime high temperatures averaging 40 C. And good luck getting to your land without a vehicle. You really don't want to walk 200 miles across west Texas wilderness. You won't make it. [Or it could be in east Texas, in a flood plain. You get to spend your summer waiting for the day that you sit on your roof hoping for rescue, while the flood water drowns everything you own.]

The same is true for northern Canada. Tons of land. Cheap too. Good luck surviving the winter. If you're rural Russian and have been living off the land in Siberia your whole life, and have the very specific skill set needed to survive in the wild, you'll make it. If you're a city boy, who hasn't got a clue how to make an axe from an oak tree (with no iron), you'll be dead two weeks after the first snow.

There's no cheap, usable land in the world today because it has been bought and settled. If it's cheap, it's guaranteed that it's not usable. Not without a lot of investment in infrastructure or some highly unusual survival skills that you won't pick up just by watching some YouTube videos.

As for everything else you've said, I was going to ask you just to tell us outright what you do for a living, then. You say that you can make money and have in the past, but as I said, talk is cheap. I could tell you that I'm a multimillionaire. But without some evidence, all you have is my assertion. And quite frankly, you'd have to be pretty gullible just to accept what I said as true. 

On the one hand, you say you have enough money to buy housing outright, so you don't worry about it. But on the other hand, you can't even afford a car. I'm not sure where you're getting your ideas about the cost of real estate. LOL. I know there are a lot of scam ads that promise house and land in some other country, but as soon as you get there, you realize that what you've bought is the right to use the land, not the land, as only citizens are permitted to own. Or you find a broken down hut on a condemned lot that the government won't let you live in until the environmental pollution levels are lower. And to clean it up will only cost you another $1.2 million. Or you get the hut and the land, but now you have the state hounding you, as the new owner, for the decades of unpaid property taxes.

In other words, I see a lot of inconsistencies in what you've written that makes me highly skeptical. Without details about exactly what you do and have done and what technology you used to do those jobs, you're just giving opinions and relying on repeated unproved assertions to make your case. How about a link to your portfolio? Show us the work you did and for which clients.

And tell us where we're supposed to be able to buy this cheap real estate. I'm quite curious, because I doubt it actually exists anywhere.

 40 C ? nah ,in U.S.A. it's 104 f. we don't use C ;)

Since this is a Art forum ,some Art 
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=2575973

 pumeco quote "That's an interesting look, RorrKonn, sort of semi-organic, pretty cool!"

Thanks ,I've always been a fantasy Artist.
Realism ,just not in my vocabulary. Think they have cameras for that ;)

   I'll be unleashing some monster to terrorize Poser in 2015.A good year for monsters :)

 40 C ? nah ,in U.S.A. it's 104 f. we don't use C ;)

I know. I lived in Texas for 18 years, and there's a reason I don't own a bunch of cheap land there (or "beaucoups (boocooze) of cheap land", to borrow an east Texas/Louisiana border phrase). :)  But Pumeco's a Brit.

lol, well next time I want to "bring back the joy of vinyl" I'll turn the bass all the way down on my speakers and pour a bowl of rice crispies whilst i jam out to some manson. That should match about the same. 

Thanks but no thanks. lol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dgrMSTalZ0 - one of my favorites, from one of the greatest bands of all time (imo), in the spirit of RorrKonn. 

@Moriador
Sorry but that's just not true, and during my time planning this stuff, I've made myself a whole bunch of friends who live that very lifestlye and the balance is roughly 50/50, some have done it their whole life, and some have been doing it anything from 2 -16 years.  None of them would swap it for the world, the stuff that bothers the ratrace simply has no bearing on their lives, they're independent.  You only need a trickle of an income and you're set for a stress free life if you know what you're doing (and I do).  It's the ones with life-long mortgages, high blood-pressure, and no freedom that are doing it all wrong I reckon.

I have a whole bunch of property agents contact me at a rate that barely three days don't go by where they have something doable to offer me.  But drinking water is important when you're going to be independent of the system.  Some of it is drinkable and infinitely better than tap water by default, some of it needs filtering.  It's a balance between getting somewhere I want and having what I need.  I already had an idea of what I needed, and the carefee friends I've made have already confired that for me.  Like I said, I don't need advice, I'm not in any situation I'm not happy with, and I know exactly what I'll be doing next year (exactly what my carefree friends are doing).  I'm not going to Siberia or Texas, I'll be doing this in a part of Europe with better-than-needed solar-stats (just like six of my friends are doing) :-D

BTW, before I forget again (and this is very important) I would like to make it clear that I have nothing against CD or SACD.  Both are physical formats and therefore, it is good to support those formats (but it's better still to support vinyl).  My reason for using vinyl is because it's both a physical and an analogue format, and knowing a fair bit about audio, I know which is best - it's my preference.

@Shane
And as for you, stop teasing, and long as you're happy, that's the main thing, insn't it - it's what we all strive for :-)
Here's some real hum, crackle, and pop for you - (it's worn out) - it will still knock your block-off if you pump up that volume!

Click here, whack-up the volume and give your neighbours some grief :-D

As for the vinyl comeback, yeah, well here's more good news (espeically for men).  See, due to demand bringing vinyl pressing to breaking point while they build more magnificent pressing machines to cope with it (and more jobs).  Man, in his infinite wisdom, has developed the solution.  The attached image shows what is called a TGVP (a two-girl vinyl press), and apart from the obvious visual benefits for factory workers, it creates two new jobs for every Vinyl Press required.

There's only one person so far who's spoken up about this solution, and here she is ...

Yeah, listen, Vinyl is waaaaaaaaay cooler cause my beats are more solid on it than some crappy digital file with no bottom end!!!
Plus, I can buy all my new beats on Vinyl now!!!

But ... WTF ... those girls stole my puffies!!!

Later,
Roxie - Girl With Blade

Now, you all stop teasing me and get back on topic!
You should know by now that you cannot "beat" the logic behind the mighty pumeco :-D

BTW, Shane, looking sharp in your new avatar!
I guess that means these stupid round borders are here to stay though :-(

BTW, Shane, looking sharp in your new avatar!
I guess that means these stupid round borders are here to stay though :-(

Pumy, you finally said something I can agree with wholeheartedly! LOL. Hope it doesn't mean the world is ending. :D :D :D

Hell, don't do that, to agree with pumeco is to side with the devil himself.
My middle name isn't 666 for nothing you know, I worked bloody hard for it :-D

BTW, just so you know, Shane only updated his avatar to try and out-cool the one I had before Roxie took over it.

But you make it so easy. The teasing part. lol.

I get you on the aim for the carefree lifestyle tho. Breaking the ratrace and all that. Nothin wrong with aiming for that at all. Life should be enjoyed to its fullest extent, so long as its not on the backs of others. I believe fully in the philosophy, and way of life, of Ubuntu - (no, not the linux os) - but unfortunately I don't see it ever really taking hold in the modern world, least not on the scale it would need to in order to really make a difference. But who knows.  In the meantime I gotta do what I gotta do in order to keep pace with all the other rats and maybe some day I'll get to my own little chunk of heaven if I play my cards right. But stockin shelves at a grocer aint gonna get me there, or anywhere close to there. There's a guy named Michael Tellinger who a lot of people think is crazy, but I admire him and what he's trying to do, and hope to live similar to the way he lives. Some day. A lot of people think I'm crazy too, but I don't mind. lol. 

Thanks on the avatar. 

Yep, on the circles. I like circles. So much better than squares.

Well, someone's gotta make the solar panels, and they don't be doing it in the outback, so the rats still have important contributions to make. :D Until climate change makes the old ways of doing things impossible, that is.

Nothing wrong with the anti-corporate stance, either. I'm no fan of The Man, myself. I was a Marxist long before millennials decided that wearing Che T-shirts was cool, and I have read Das Kapital (though not in German). But I'm also very fond of John Stuart Mill and WIlliam James. Utilitarianism and pragmatism have a lot going for them, and I'm too old to live by romantic ideals I had in my youth. So I say you can dream, but you can't eat dreams, so you do what you must in the meantime to keep a chicken in the pot and the government off your back. However, I also got to watch one of my best friends suffer from profound anxiety problems that led to him believing all sorts of conspiracy theories and obsessing over paranoid fantasies. It's a truly miserable, wretched way to live. You have to try to moderate the craziness sometimes, or end up spending your life angry or bitter or afraid all the time. [Not you, Shane. Your craziness is just what people would call "totally rational" if they were, in fact, rational themselves.]