There's an incredibly long thread chronicling the creation of Antonia here

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/?thread_id=2753785

Wonder what ever became of ODF? Seems like anytime someone creates an elaborate free figure for Poser they end up disappearing from the community (Anton, ODF, Diogenes).

They take a beating like Sixus is this week and just say "F--k it." Would YOU stick around for a 2nd dose of this shit?

Nope... I'm in a bad mood today so I'm being a little more troll like than usual (but at least I occasionally try to be helpful when I can, unlike some straight up trolls that are tolerated here). Frankly all of the negativity that practically oozes from this forum is getting really depressing... First the forum glitches bitches (which blew over and all the quitters are back, some conviction to the vitriol please. Lame). And now this. I swear the admins just tolerate this stuff because it's amusing, free entertainment as it were.

I for one think that Scarlet looks pretty promising, I'll pick her up eventually. Probably after everyone has forgotten about her. Remember Michelle? She went through a similar feeding frenzy, not quite as extreme though. People will be latching on to some new hating next week.

There's an incredibly long thread chronicling the creation of Antonia here

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/?thread_id=2753785

Wonder what ever became of ODF? Seems like anytime someone creates an elaborate free figure for Poser they end up disappearing from the community (Anton, ODF, Diogenes).

Thanks for the link. I hate it when I come off ignorant. Gotta correct the situation immediately.

 First the forum glitches bitches (which blew over and all the quitters are back, some conviction to the vitriol please. Lame). And now this. I swear the admins just tolerate this stuff because it's amusing, free entertainment as it were.

For the record, I never said I was leaving, and I didn't. I simply stopped posting because it didn't seem to matter. Except for my thread about my new project, I still pretty much refrain from posting here. And I've only posted in this thread once to ask a quick question and now to respond to you.

"Just checked RTDNA. Yes she's free and open source as far as I can tell. What is the reason people don't use her? (I'm downloading her now)"

Not a whole lot of good morphs, even less clothing, even less textures. Creating a figure and then supporting it is a concerted effort that I'm certain only a modeling house can attain, not a bunch of people doing it in their spare time who come and go - the reason Daz is so successful at it and single artists/small group are not.

Laurie

Why does there have to be only one figure? Or one set of figures?

Well said...I use many different figures. I use Genesis 1 and more recently I have started to use gen2, Hivewire figures, Star and also many older figures including those awesome figures by Nursoda. 

Who vendors choose to support is up to them, and that is as already stated a business decision, but as a hobbyist who does this for fun I have the freedom to choose how and why I spend my money. Also, I have the choice(which is also a preference) of making stuff myself for my chosen figures.  Sure I don't buy as much as I once did but I am developing (admittedly very slowly) my own skill set so I don't have to worry about whether something I want is in the market place as I can make it for myself.

I've been watching this thread to help me assess whether to buy Scarlet and funnily enough the thing that is making me think about it is Zev's conversion to DS.

We all have our different perspectives and needs...

I wonder if Sixus used their open source project human female as a base for Scarlet, and if so how this effects the use of that base figure for projects in an intellectual property sense.

I quite liked Antonia.  (And I still do.)  However, I found her face very difficult to morph, and I suspect others did, too, because the characters made for her seemed to all sort of look the same.

the is some software that averages out human faces from photographs. a figures face should look like that: totally neutral and have a ton of morphs.

The totally neutral theory has been around for a while. Every model can still be seen through its morphs tho. All the V4 characters I've seen still look like V4 underneath. Same is true for Genesis. Even though the goal with those figures is for the base mesh to be neutral. It doesnt matter which figure it is, just using them as an example since they're the most common. Obviously a more distinctive face will carry more of the base shape into the morphs than a less distinctive face, but once you get used to seeing the base on a regular basis, you'll almost always recognize it when you see it, no matter how morphed it gets - within the human realm of faces of course.

I disagree with that. I have seen some V4 morphs that look nothing like her. There is a difference between custom morphs made, and characters created using the same dial spin morph packages.

Isn't the key to a figures success that it brings some kind of improvement or progression with it. Things like Capability, compatibility, flexibility, Realism, Easier to create content for, etc, etc.

Out of curiosity is there anything new that Scarlet brings to the table?

To be a "V4 killer" the figure would need to bring something to the table that V4 is not capable of or show a point of progression, as the Genesis figures have done.

From a vendor point of view what would excite me or make me want to get on board creating for Scarlet? At this point all I see is risk and an unpolished base.

From a user point of view why should I use Scarlet over V4 or Genesis 2? Where is the progression with this figure from using V4?

An article by Les on Scarlet here:  http://www.renderosity.com/s1m-scarlet-project-new-releases-bundles-cms-17696

So, pray tell, if one isn't allowed to "publically bash" a figure, how are we supposed to warn lesser experienced Poser users from wasting their money?

On the one hand there is "no human made object is ever perfect" and then there is "I couldn't be bothered with flexible mesh topology and realistic rigging" or even worse "As long as stupid people buy my shit I don't care if my work is actually any good"

Bad topology and broken joints are such fundamental flaws in figure creation, we shouldn't even have to discuss them. We should laugh at them, but the only place they should have here is as examples of how to NOT  build a Poser figure.

And yet here we are again: Another typical Rendo thread of baiting, taking words out of context, inability to understand even the simplest causal relationships and general trolling.

People treat professional merchants like "best buddy-e-friends" and virtual dolls like handicapped children.

"OwOwOw, how can you be such a big bad meanie and mention that Jenny's topology has flaws?"

"She's my little girl and absolutely special and PERFECT the way she is!!!!!1111OneOne"

Seriously, does anyone know a place where the less emotional Poser/Studio users can meet?

Something away from the usual Poser coffe klatch but not as arduous as the professional CGI forums?

There's still some "Posering" left in me, but I really rather spend my time anywhere else than here.

@JoePublic, you still don't get it.

Nobody forbid you to make valid, constructive critics on contents. Hell, I am by my own very far away to be PC. But there is a huge difference between personal attacking and constructive critic.

I can say, Scarlet is not my thing. On the promos what I see, she has to much issues. Cloth does not fit properly, her mesh seams to be broken on the ankle, on some joints she bend strange. So I will sit and wait before I put her in my cart.

With this i guess other customer  can imagine what is wrong with her and can decide if they buy or not.

But when I write that the vendors has no clue what he is doing..well this is a personal attack and as a future customer I still don't know if she is good or bad.

You don't have to be nice and say to everything yes and amen just because a "Top Vendor". But personal attack is a NOGO! You can make critics on the work, suggest improvements etc..this is how a community usual grow and learn, but personal bashing...No way.

Sorry, I check out from here. If people agree with personal attacks on others hard work, well this is far away from my League .

Personal attack: "Vendor X is a hack and an arsehole because I don't like his work. And I wouldn't be surprised if he smells funny, too."

NOT a personal attack: "Vendor X' work constantly shows fundamental flaws (Insert screenshots demonstrating those exact flaws here) so my logical conclusion is that he either is incapeable of delivering the type of quality I expect from a professional vendor or he just doesn't care."

For a few years I made a living constructing Master (prototype) scale models for a small company.

If you think I'm "harsh", you better never listen to a bunch of modellers "discussing" (=bashing) a newly released scale model of a tank or an airplane.

If your measurements are "off" by even a hundredth of an inch, if you forget a single rivet or screw head, if you put a weld line where it doesn't belong, if you get the angle of a fender cut-out wrong, then your fellow modellers will mercyless thrash your work and happily point out every single flaw publically unless you feel like rolling into a little ball and just die.

And guess what? Everyone of us professional modellers is grateful for it, because it is the only way to improvement.

This public "bashing" almost always leads to better, more accurate models. We don't try to whitewash flaws as "artistic freedom".

Scale modellers want more accuracy. Period.

Once you have that (almost) flawless accurate model, it's up to you to turn it into a "work of art".

And that exactly is what Poser needs:

Technically flawless, perfectly accurate avatars of the human shape.

Once we have this, it's up to the users to turn them into art.

THEN you can make them as perfect or imperfect looking as you want.

THEN you can turn them into Supermodels or Mr and Mrs Average.

But the mesh, the rigging, the morphs, all that technical stuff, MUST BE FLAWLESS.

That's what I expect and that's what I'd like others to expect, too.

Personal attack: "Vendor X is a hack and an arsehole because I don't like his work. And I wouldn't be surprised if he smells funny, too."

NOT a personal attack: "Vendor X' work constantly shows fundamental flaws (Insert screenshots demonstrating those exact flaws here) so my logical conclusion is that he either is incapeable of delivering the type of quality I expect from a professional vendor or he just doesn't care." 

Actually, that's still a personal attack.  You're not commenting on the figure as much as you are on the vendor and his skills.

Joe, to be honest, this is just unprofessional. I can slice your work in 1000 pieces and point out what you do wrong, without to get personal.

It helps nobody when I talk 5 minutes about the Creators skills, which he has or not and just a sentence about the work by his own.

You want to tell me you learn when I tell you your work is just a piece of crap? You are motivated to continue?

Lets get personal, If you say yes, you lie or you are just incompetent..

I am done here.

And just to give you an example, here's the review of the very first "Master" I created as a professional modeller:

http://www.onthewaymodels.com/reviews/FSF/sdkfz233rev.htm

About 300 hours in creating the prototype out of thousands of scratch built parts. (The model is about 4inches long)

Then it was cast into resine plastic to create copys to be sold.

As you see, every single "flaw" is publically revealed and I was grateful for it, as it made me a better modeller.

Noone expects perfection, but we are expected to strive for it as good as we can.

I never have that feeling with any of the non-DAZ figures. (And even those are chock full of flaws as I have happily pointed out over the last 15 years. But at least I have the feeling that they DO try)

Seriously, this is hopeless.

"Actually, that's still a personal attack.  You're not commenting on the figure as much as you are on the vendor and his skills."

And that is exactly the kind of non-sensical remark that makes any discussion here impossible.

If you are a real ARTISAN/ARTIST, then YOU ARE YOUR WORK!

There is no difference between discussing "me" or "my work".

Assuming a lack of talent/professionalism from a lack of quality in one's work is just simple logic.

@Joe: I agree with a lot of what you're saying. But at the same time, you've been asked to help create and rig a quality native figure for Poser in the past and have repeatedly declined to help, so it's a bit asinine to consistently bash other people's efforts when you aren't willing to produce the work you expect others to produce, especially when you've demonstrated that you can.

Anyone is free to create whatever figures or content they want, and if other people want to use them and spend money on them then that's their choice. S-M have made it clear that they are not in the business of making content for Poser and have no interest in doing so. Now maybe that will change now that there is a new product manager, but until they show otherwise, it's up to the Poser community to produce a figure for Poser that everyone wants to use, or stick with what is already available. And Glitterati is right, with all the bashing that goes on it's no surprise at all that very few attempt to do so. If they do they likely keep their figures to themselves.

Seems to me most people are still happy with V4 and V4WM anyway.

Personal attack: "Vendor X is a hack and an arsehole because I don't like his work. And I wouldn't be surprised if he smells funny, too."

NOT a personal attack: "Vendor X' work constantly shows fundamental flaws (Insert screenshots demonstrating those exact flaws here) so my logical conclusion is that he either is incapeable of delivering the type of quality I expect from a professional vendor or he just doesn't care." 

Actually, that's still a personal attack.  You're not commenting on the figure as much as you are on the vendor and his skills.
In this particular instance, the vendor claims the figure is "Poser the way it was meant to be".  Based on that claim, I expect to be "wowed" by the product.  I don't expect the product to be perfect but I don't expect to see basic fundamental flaws.  The vendors go on to point out their years of experience and how they are professional Poser content developers.  Shane has reminded us they are top rated content developers.  If they have that much experience, are professionals and are as highly rated as has been stated, then I do not expect to see basic fundamental flaws.  These are flaws I would expect to find in a new vendor who is attempting their first human figure.  In fact, if this were a new vendor attempting their first human figure, I would have given them more leeway because of their inexperience. 

My point about them being a top vendor was simply to show that there are enough people out there that like their work and have supported them long enough to reach that status. It has nothing to do with whether or not I think their work is deserving of top-vendor status. That's up to the people who consistently buy their content to decide.

Well, looking at the content released for her, Akemi & Kolbie, those characters have very low skin texture quality and average face morphs. They are not doing this figure justice and if this is the standard from the creators themselves, then yeah, not good enough. Also I am not seeing any dynamic difference in the figure shape? One would think you would use this opportunity to showcase how flexible the figure is?  I mean she also has so many expressions yet in the promos the characters have the same one used over and over. I am not impressed. Wasted opportunity.........

Shane, several reasons I do no "professional" (= paid for) Poser work:

1. The figure meshes available are not up to the standards I need.

2). My health is not the best so I'm very picky on what I spend my time on. Rigging for myself (Like V3WM and D3WM) and then just sharing the result is fun. Working in a team and being hold to deadlines is work.

1. No adequate pay. (Most even think it should be done "for the honor")

On a lighter note:

I wouldn't wish it on anyone

Yeah, pretty much sums it up, eh?

Well, looking at the content released for her, Akemi & Kolbie, those characters have very low skin texture quality and average face morphs. They are not doing this figure justice and if this is the standard from the creators themselves, then yeah, not good enough. Also I am not seeing any dynamic difference in the figure shape? One would think you would use this opportunity to showcase how flexible the figure is?  I mean she also has so many expressions yet in the promos the characters have the same one used over and over. I am not impressed. Wasted opportunity.........

It also looks like the promo renders were made before the eyelashes were fixed. Some of the images posted here have showed her off better than the promo pics.

Isn't the key to a figures success that it brings some kind of improvement or progression with it. Things like Capability, compatibility, flexibility, Realism, Easier to create content for, etc, etc.

Out of curiosity is there anything new that Scarlet brings to the table?

To be a "V4 killer" the figure would need to bring something to the table that V4 is not capable of or show a point of progression, as the Genesis figures have done.

From a vendor point of view what would excite me or make me want to get on board creating for Scarlet? At this point all I see is risk and an unpolished base.

From a user point of view why should I use Scarlet over V4 or Genesis 2? Where is the progression with this figure from using V4?

Why you would use Scarlet over V4, or any other figure for that matter, depend on what you are trying to do with the figure.  There were many things that attracted me to the figure according to the promos, some not born out in reality, but one thing I am still taken with is the strength of these expressions.  I do a fir amount of portrait renders and I can see instances where I would use Scarlet over V4, or V4WM in my case, purely because of the expressions.   Not bad for a figure that is a week old compared with a ten year old developed figure.  Of course for portraits, many of the stated problems are not an issue. I will leave it to others to decide for themselves if Scarlet's expressions are indeed better than V4 and why that should be if it is the case. 

Yes, we get it. The mesh is not symmetrical, likely due to a combination of reasons.

Can't you just split it at the centerline and then mirror one of the halfs?

@Zenzai
No, because it changes the vertex order.

Shane, several reasons I do no "professional" (= paid for) Poser work:

1. The figure meshes available are not up to the standards I need.

2). My health is not the best so I'm very picky on what I spend my time on. Rigging for myself (Like V3WM and D3WM) and then just sharing the result is fun. Working in a team and being hold to deadlines is work.

1. No adequate pay. (Most even think it should be done "for the honor")

The pay issue seem to be a factor at Smith Micro

Even bagginsbill stated recently that the only reason we have a library system dependent on 1990's Website technology from Adobe,

is that SM was not willing to pay him,

(or any coder) a proper Industry rate to code one in C.

It seems SM just does not have to funds to pay for Figure developement.

and Most independent Figure creators

understandably do not find it a viable investment for the work required.

I dont understand why there exists, in the minds of many, that there must be a 

Non Daz "Vicky4" killer for poser

Even if it somehow occurred you still would have a long way to go in the area of content

just to Match what Already exists for V4

all the while the newest high quality content has migrated over to genesis anyway.

Well, looking at the content released for her, Akemi & Kolbie, those characters have very low skin texture quality and average face morphs. They are not doing this figure justice and if this is the standard from the creators themselves, then yeah, not good enough. Also I am not seeing any dynamic difference in the figure shape? One would think you would use this opportunity to showcase how flexible the figure is?  I mean she also has so many expressions yet in the promos the characters have the same one used over and over. I am not impressed. Wasted opportunity.........

I have to agree.  First impressions are the most important.  These are the first morph/character sets the vendor is releasing, the ones many who purchased Scarlet will buy next.  Again, I would have expected one really impressive set that showcased the best of what could be done with the model.  Insteade the texture I looked at was less than 10 megs total.  I read the product page and the read me and I can't tell what resolution the textures are, do they have bump, displacement, specular, normal or other maps.  Does it come with and without SSS?  Details like the nipple texture appears blurry. 

Not a good first impression.

What makes the expressions better? Is it just personal preference or is there some technical reason they are better than V4 facial expressions? It's hard to see any great improvement in facial expressiveness from the 15 images so far uploaded to the gallery here, which have credited Scarlet. 15 images doesn't seem a great deal considering 6 of them are from a single artist. 

I can see how better expression would make the figure feasible for an alternate option if portraits are your thing. But I feel the figure would need to be strong all round to be seen as progression from V4 and attract vendor support to the figure and user take up. 

Les has stated that she is built specifically to make use of the new features in Poser, I'm wondering what those Poser features are that the figure uses?

I'm also curious why the Developer resources were not given away free. It seems to me the biggest challenge of making this figure a success will be attracting Vendors to support the figure. Adding a $50+ buy in price just to take a peak and access the associated development tools seems counter productive to vendor take up. It seems more a focus on seeing an initial rapid turnover, rather than providing a long term platform for development and growth of the figure. Unfortunately not offering any form of Daz Studio Support is a bit of a deal breaker for me. The Poser market is shrinking by the day, opinions may deny it. But if you apply some typical market research analysis it does tend to indicate a decline in Poser marketplaces and consistent growth elsewhere. Which also adds to the risk of choosing to support Scarlet. Feel free to deny Poser's decline if you must, but please try to point to some statistics that indicate this isn't the trend before you give just an opinion.

WIthout having used Scarlet myself, she does look like a decent figure offering for an independent development team. But in comparison to the Genesis range of figures... I can't really see DS users beating down the gates to buy Poser and Scarlet. But to each his own and best of luck to the developers.

Ye, I would have given the developer resources away for free. Short term sacrifice for long term benefits. Having to pay just to support an untested figure is a poor decision. Nobody will bite at that scenario. If free, then more people would have been willing to give it a try and possibly add to the content provided for her, be it free or something that is sold.

What makes the expressions better? Is it just personal preference or is there some technical reason they are better than V4 facial expressions? It's hard to see any great improvement in facial expressiveness from the 15 images so far uploaded to the gallery here, which have credited Scarlet. 15 images doesn't seem a great deal considering 6 of them are from a single artist. 

I can see how better expression would make the figure feasible for an alternate option if portraits are your thing. But I feel the figure would need to be strong all round to be seen as progression from V4 and attract vendor support to the figure and user take up. 

Les has stated that she is built specifically to make use of the new features in Poser, I'm wondering what those Poser features are that the figure uses?

I'm also curious why the Developer resources were not given away free. It seems to me the biggest challenge of making this figure a success will be attracting Vendors to support the figure. Adding a $50+ buy in price just to take a peak and access the associated development tools seems counter productive to vendor take up. It seems more a focus on seeing an initial rapid turnover, rather than providing a long term platform for development and growth of the figure. Unfortunately not offering any form of Daz Studio Support is a bit of a deal breaker for me. The Poser market is shrinking by the day, opinions may deny it. But if you apply some typical market research analysis it does tend to indicate a decline in Poser marketplaces and consistent growth elsewhere. Which also adds to the risk of choosing to support Scarlet. Feel free to deny Poser's decline if you must, but please try to point to some statistics that indicate this isn't the trend before you give just an opinion.

WIthout having used Scarlet myself, she does look like a decent figure offering for an independent development team. But in comparison to the Genesis range of figures... I can't really see DS users beating down the gates to buy Poser and Scarlet. But to each his own and best of luck to the developers.

You readily admit you don't have Scarlet, yet you take the time to compare her to Genesis and DS to Poser.  Just for another opportunity to make yourself feel superior? What is it about DS/Genesis users that make them so terrified of a little competition that they just can't pass the opportunity to slap just one more figure, one more vendor, or more product?

Are you folks truly that insecure and terrified of competition?

You look petty, mean and downright nasty when you do this.

If you were more confident in your own product, you wouldn't NEED to slam one you have never even touched.

One day, DS users will learn that they don't need to downgrade the competition to make their products better. 

I long for that day.

Lol, is that serious?

I'm taking that as a personal attack. ;) Glitterati you said you or your 9 times in that post. You never mentioned any of the issues just pointed fingers.

I made an honest comment regarding a product offering from my own perspective and have been labeled and attacked for doing so. Is this not a free forum?  Seems like you need to resort to personally attacking someone when you have no legitimate form of defence for any criticism given out.

I took the time to compare as I was considering making a purchase as a customer. Are you saying I have no right to discuss or assess something before I make a purchase? Why is it that you feel the need to label someone as a DS/Genesis user with a sneer on your face. Really there is no need to prop up DS or Genesis and if there was a need this would be the last place I would attempt to do that. At the end of the day, like with Scarlet, the market will decide what they prefer. Are your ready for that? Or will you just personally insult each of them for being "DS/Genesis users" if they choose to go with something that isn't your thing. If you want to defend Scarlet then do it, don't just throw insults in your usual passive aggressive style...

I was about to post but Razor said basically what I was going to lol.

Hit home, did I?

Seriously, so far in this thread, Poser users have been called:

just plain too stupid to see the writing on the wall

cheap bastards with old computers

too dumb to know the difference between a good model and a bad model

being run over by the stampede to DS/Genesis

We've heard the lecture multiple times.  We've seen and heard.  We've done our own comparisons and we stuck with Poser.

And, you've been personally attacked?  That's rich!

Shhhhh........be quiet now..Go play with Luna or something. Go have some fun and don't let us get to you...

Gitterati, i didn't say any of them things. Im talking about your comment aimed directly at me, attacking me for just offering personal opinion. If you want to rant about things others have said thats your choice but dont direct it at me.

It seems lumping people into categories is your thing. Poser users here and the evil Daz users over there. Your attacking me as one of  those Daz people who are saying naughty things. I hate to tell but like most things in life the situation is more complex,  the line more blurred. i actually have Poser installed as well, I'm not a big DSON fan either. I also have DS installed which slowly has become my preferred choice.

Your comment didn't hit home in the slightest, i just get sick of seeing people here reverting to personal attacks if someone says something that they personally don't like. Also the pretense that people saying bad thing is what is causing a decline in the Poser market is just sheer fallacy. Products are open to review by peers its as simple as that. Software packages open to scrutiny and evaluation. Markets drive downturns and progressions not happy thoughts and zero tolerance to critique. So stop acting like a wounded animal in the corner.

It seems the strongest thing in the Poser community here is the ability to derail threads and make everything a pissing match...

No wounded animal here - we're use to it.  Been going on for years now.

I won't bother autopsying your post where you insulted Poser users.  You folks are so used to doing so, you don't even realize what absolute dicks you are being anymore.

Like I said, a little competition never hurt anyone - least of all DAZ.  And, we Poser users aren't going anywhere.

Agreed, you are not going anywhere. Everybody else is.

"Agreed, you are not going anywhere. Everybody else is."

Thanks, Zev0. I needed that laugh!   :-P

Agreed, you are not going anywhere. Everybody else is.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this a Poser forum thread? It never ceases to amaze me that some people feel the need to constantly needle, criticize and spend so much effort and time to insult people who are using a program that they clearly do not favor. Since you clearly have no interest in supporting Poser models, what is driving you so hard to continue to post in the Poser forum? I'd like to think that I would be better than that, but who knows, maybe I would indulge in that sort of thing all the time too if I were an angry little man who didn't have a life. 

Oh the "Isn't this a poser thread argument". I have Poser and Scarlet. What now? Do you prefer ass licking comments or honest ones? Sorry if something is not up to scratch I will say so. Doesn't matter for what app or figure. And with regards to me not having a life, oh, if you only knew:) Right now I have an android serving me coffee:) Would you like a cup? Also you ask me why don't I do content for Poser figures? That is a simple answer but I will not mention it again. I see you are also vendor, so where are your products?

Honestly, to what end? Why must you dole out your opinion all of the time and sound it from the rooftops as if everything you have to say is gold or something. I prefer constructive critical analysis to the near obsessive bashing that you engage in half of the time.

I prefer constructive critical analysis to the near obsessive bashing that you engage in half of the time.

There are times I give constructive criticism and it is just taken as bashing, so what is the difference?..I might as well just bash then since people react so sensitively regardless. I can say something simple as I don't really like Scarlet in a nice way and I will still be met with anti DAZ comments. So it doesn't really matter how I phrase things anymore now does it?

I cannot agree. I think communicating with others should always be carefully considered.With that in mind, I will bow out as I do not have anything constructive to say. I honestly should not have said anything as I know it will not make a difference.

What does it really matter if it is opinion or fact? I put facts into the thread and people said that it must not be the case since you cant see it in the renders?

Cant see it in the renders? How do they think I found it in the first place?

The only reason I tore the character to pieces to look at it, was because my renders had issues in the first place.

I guess that must be opinion as well. Because I did not think the renders were good at all.. Even the wire frame posts I made must be opinion as well, because if I would have done a different pose where it wasn't so bad it would not have looked so bad...

There is not much difference between opinion and fact around here, because I posted facts and was told they were just opinions.

So technically, it must work the other way around and all opinions must be fact................................