**For example it is mainly directed at myself in a rather personalised fashion. It adds a number of barbs and negative terms including insinuations like "simply ridiculous" and "childish" and seems to primarily be focused on drawing me into some kind of argument. This is generally regarded as trolling in most circles.

My participation in this thread has been positive, brief and non disruptive. You have stated quite broadly that you have some issue with my statements and responded in a negative fashion with what could also be regarded as a number of personal attacks in your post. **

Im not making a personal attack on anyone, im having a go at some of the statements and arguments put forward throughout this thread. The reason behind that is, because people are well aware of what is meant by the rules written in TOS, but deliberate choose to misunderstand them, to the point where a Renderosity staff member need to clarify them, which shouldn't be needed. Im not making a personal attack on Redhorse, I simply disagree with his view and use of argumentation for his points and therefore argue why i think that he is mistaken, which is valid as that is what i disagree with. If any disagreement with someones point is seen as a personal attack, then you wouldn't be able to discuss anything.

I haven't attacked you either, but merely suggested that you should make an argument in support of Redhorse comment if you feel that he has a valid point. My statement is not directly aimed towards you personally, even though i quoted you, But is aimed towards behaviour where people that are clearly upset with something or anything that Renderosity does, seems to support each other regardless of argumentation for a given point. And i do find such behavior both ridiculous and childish, so its aimed at anyone that would choose to argue in such way, because its not constructive.

So its not in violation of the TOS as im having a go at a way or lack of constructive way for having a discussion, i haven't called you or anyone else anything inappropriate and would never do that. But wouldn't you agree when reading the TOS, that its pretty clear what is meant by it? And if anything i have said offended you, then ill apologize for that.

Razor42 posted at 6:40PM Wed, 17 February 2016 - #4255475

Hi Hornet, I was trying to avoid entering this discussion.

I just wanted to say that I truly appreciate your comments, they are always well worded and well thought out and always written in a reasonable tone.

I was just curious you have alluded a few times to some kind of "issue with the Poser Forums getting out of hand". I'm just curious when you think this began to happen. From my experience the Poser forums were always a little like the wild west. Have a look at this thread from 2003. You guessed it people arguing about Daz and Poser, people flaming and trolling each other. Request for the mods to not close this thread please. Name calling. All with seemingly no mod intervention.

• https://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/?thread_id=1498465

I especially like this little gem, one member says to another "Ryamka you are an insignificant little flea whom if he spoke to me in person the way you spoke to me here that I would swat. Ex army rangers like me just love swatting bugs like you." It doesn't really seem to be an isolated thread either there are many like it over the years.

And another from 2012 full of attacks on Daz, some light hearted some quite aggressive and extremely negative:

• https://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/?thread_id=2843540&page_number=1

From that thread "Wow 2.5 hours of a Daz thread and no serious fight yet. Is that a rendo record?"

You are right and, there have certainly been some heated threads in the Poser forum in the past and, in truth, this is to be expected when you have people who are passionate about their art or their software. For me that is the whole reason for mods, not to censor people but to try and cool the odd heated debate and give combatants a space and time to cool down.

For me personally the situation dropped to a all time low when the Daz started the split with Genesis and I say that as a factual statement not as a negative comment. Threads often got personal after some very suspicious statements usually along the lines 'it is Daz fault because they took this veiw' or 'it is Poser fault because they took this view'. The point is, the poster often stated information that was presented as fact and inside knowledge. It could never be verified and my suspicions are that if it was inside knowledge they would be constrained by non-disclosure agreements. This often lead the very personal attacks that went for page after page. That was the first change but it really became to a point when almost every thread would quickly turn to the same well trodden argument irrespective of what the original thread title started as.

The same argument ran for four years and was so regular that most threads contained no useful information and if it did, it was so hard to find that it was not worth the effort. The mod line at the time used to be that responses were not against the TOS just because you do not agree, actually the complaint was more along the limes this has been said so many times it is boring and it is no more valid now than when it was first written four years ago.

There is also the subject of thread drift and most threads do, it happens in a community and to me is a healthy sign but when the drift was always towards the same topic there should have been some actions taken. It reached the point that regular visitors could see a thread would end up being locked and would even say so early on. Some OPs were asking to have their threads locked as it had gone in a direction they never intended or expected. Usually the threads were locked many pages later but only after yet another forum war had broken out. Trouble was that some very interesting threads went the same way because personal attacks started to become the norm and not the exception. To my shame I started a thread when the Scarlet figure was released and I was looking for views from others who were much more skilled in rigging than me. What happened was it quickly became a vicious assault on the vendor in question and I regretted starting the thread before we reached the end of page two. I don't think I have started a thread in the Poser forum since.

Of course this was made worse by the web changes. When someone as helpful and talented as Bagginsbill suggest you move the discussion to RDNA because the forum here does not work people tend to do just that. Many others have left and I have met up with a lot of them in other forums. The end result was it has left the Poser forum in a position that those with other agendas are in a much higher majority. Having achieved their goal, in the main, they no longer post although they all crawl out of the woodwork if you start a thread that challenges their views. End result, a reduction in interesting threads, less help for those that are looking for information and a forum that has pretty much ceased in being an asset to the 3D art community no matter what software you use.

A heavily personal view but anyone who wants to look deeper need go no further than pick a genesis thread here and a similar thread at RDNA and see how they progressed. The outcome was very different despite the fact that the same people were often involved, even if they did use different names. The only conclusion I can come to was one thread was well moderated and the other was not.

I can understand not linking to products on other sites but if this includes freebies (which it now does if you take a look at the announcement in the Freestuff forum) and tutorials then this will just get people to actually GO to the other sites and spend time there looking for the tutorials and/or freebies and thus spending less time on Rosity instead of just following a link and getting what they want instantly.

I don't know if the inability to link to other sites is a major issue in general, clearly it is for some and I can see arguments for and against. I think I would make the point though that there is a lot more wrong here than the inability to link and it would be wrong to suggest that there is a really simple answer for Rendo.

The off-site linking has gotten ridiculous as they decided to change the rule from "only links to sites that have marketplaces are prohibited" to "no off-site linking to freebies because we want people to upload freebies to Rendo instead" This new rule was posted JUST TODAY.

https://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/?thread_id=2899703

In the TOS, we now have a new addition that states we no longer accept off-site links. So, unfortunately, you're unable to post off-site freebies. That may come as a disappointment and shock to some, but we'd really like you to start focusing more on linking to YOUR FAVORITE FREEBIES from OUR site.

Personally, I hope this backfires, but I don't have much hope for that.
The absolute stupidest thing about this rule is that it makes the forums FAR LESS helpful-- let's say someone says they remember some python script from long ago that allows you to do X, and wish they had it. Someone could then post the off-site link to the script, esp. useful if it is uploaded to someone's Dropbox (making it difficult if not impossible to find using search engines like Google and Bing)

I never thought I see Renderosity go Politically correct. geesh how disappointing. well I won't be sharing or posting any more of my freebies here its looks like .. not because i don't want too. but because I'm not allowed too. why would i put my free content on your site and not be allowed to link it to mine? hows that benefit me? its my free content I'm giving away. I give it away to bring traffic to my site. That I use to sell my renders & animations I created using content i purchased here. so how that benefit renderosity by not allowing me to add a link to my site . when my site is showing renders of the content i bought here..no links no free advertising for renderosity. really dumb move guys . it works both ways you want my free stuff you need to allow me to post links to my site where my TOS for the content resides. its a 2 way street ya know.

I guess No Sharing Animations you have on YouTube at renderosity anymore that would be a violation of the Tos. what a stupid violation because some dumb preson thinks posting off site links to other media sharing sites that display art work is no benefit to renderosity even though we are show casing your products we bought here with our renders & animations . really where is your commons sense here guys? you want another bullet for your other foot?

I guess No more Posting links to freebie renders on Facebook or google -plus and sharing them on renderosity.. that is not politically correct and will be removed for tos violations. even if our free renders might bring rednerosity a little traffic because of our renders are showing the content we purchased here. Yea that is Brilliant lets restrict that one for sure. who needs free advertising anyway?

No posting of off site links that may contain renders that does not meet rendersositys TOS because of the adult ratings so kiss our deviantartdotcom links good bye they are now no good here. Great job lets restrict art work & animations because it may not be PC. even though the content we are using is credited to renderosity.. Yea that is another brilliant move. lets stick with that and see how that works out.

No more posting links to our own free content we are giving away on our own web site or on community sharing sites like sharecg.. Oh no that is a bad thing & does not benefit renderosity even though we are generous enough to give it away to the 3d community renderosity want the free stuff on their site not yours . it makes them look like their giving away free stuff which they never do, . But it makes rrederosity look like their giving away free content so lets go with that, so no links for that. sorry folks you have to guess what site I'm keeping those goodies on now. because i will not be sharing them on here anymore I'm not allowed tooif i can;t post a link to my site that has my TOS for my free content..

If by now yo can;t tell I'm upset let me diescrib t a little more detail for you. Now with this new policy of Renderosity wanting me to give away my free content on their site with no links to my site. Well I tell you how that fly's. like a brick through a window. Because now just for spite I will make a effort to avoid uploading freebies here. Just for future reference. no links to my site from here, then no links to renderosity site from me.. that is how I roll sorry. like i said its a 2 way street. I spend enough on content and people ask me all the time where i bough it. so from now on I'll just say I can't tell you its a renderosity TOS violation sorry.
I mean really even daz3d allows me to post youtube & social media links . Daz even lets me post links to freebies on my own site .. maybe because they know my site shows products I have bought from them.. Tell me renderosuty what benefit do I get from not being allowed to post links to my site but you want me to buy your content .. why buy it if i can't share what I done with it using just a simple link. I can understand no links to competitive 3d sites that I do understand the rest of your TOS is abstruse. Just remember renderosity we aritst are your bread and butter we pay for your salaries don't cut your nose off in spite of your face. Link sharing = free advertising. simple as that.

So thanks rendersoity you out did yourself in the really dumb policy department congratulation. that is what being PC gets you. the dumb policy award

**The off-site linking has gotten ridiculous as they decided to change the rule from "only links to sites that have marketplaces are prohibited" to "no off-site linking to freebies because we want people to upload freebies to Rendo instead" This new rule was posted JUST TODAY.

https://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/?thread_id=2899703**

Agree, wouldn't consider this a very clever move either, most of all, because in general I understand why Renderosity doesn't want "commercial" links to other sites. But that is one thing. I personally don't think it makes any different whether someone make a direct link to a given site or whether its done the following way "Go to X-site and type Bike in the search field and it will be the first one in the search result". A direct link makes it slightly faster, but the end result is the same in either case.

Where it makes sense to not allow links is those that makes them with the only purpose of directing traffic to another site, with the clear purpose of trying to compete with Renderosity.

However freebies site should not be considered being in direct competition with Renderosity, instead it would be a much better approach to make a list of sites which have freebies and link directly to these. Make it so a person who offers freebies on there site can contact Renderosity and they can have a look at the site and if its not considered to serve the purpose of directing traffic then it should be added to the list with a direct link. This include all the other major sites like Daz3d, ShareCG etc.which also have freebies sections, again everyone know these sites exists, not linking to there freebies as well is simply trying to prevent something that is not possible. Even Daz3d links to Renderosity as well, so simply not acknowledging each others site, seems like a waste of energy to me.

I also share Poisinivy view, that if he/she have a site with freebies that clearly isn't in competition with Renderosity, but might make some income from ads etc by giving away freebies it shouldn't be of great concern to Renderosity. And even if they do have a small range of items they sell, I would probably not see that as a huge concern either. And if it is, it could simply be arranged that the prices on their site ain't allowed to compete with Renderosity. So there are lots of ways to sort that out.

I think it would be very wrong to assume that people having these freebie sites, would simply agree to move all of them here, because you think its a good idea and as IceEmpress, not that i hope it backfires, as its of little concern to me personally, but im pretty sure that it will.

In addition, we fear that any off-site links could be harmful to other members and could potentially give off viruses. For that, we'd be held accountable because we allowed them to be posted. So, we're also protecting ALL members in not being spammed or given a virus.

I don't think this is a valid reason for not allowing offsite links as you are not legally responsible for such thing. If that were the case and someone made a link on your site and before you could remove it, someone went there and downloaded something, Then in theory this person would then be able to hold you accountable for it which is absurd. If you are concerned about such things happening, you should copy the way all other major sites does it, which have forums. Which is simply to make the user aware when they click a link, that they are about to leave Renderosity and enter another site and they do so on their own risk.

Quote From Above Post : Re: Linking If you cannot see the issue with a community that produces content that relies on 3rd party content to function, but then prevents linking to that same 3rd party content in discussion, then that is your prerogative. As is mine to decline from entering into an argument or discussion regarding the matter.

I agree with this statement 100% , no offense or rudeness intended but almost everything sold here at Renderosity is for a product made somewhere else. Even V4 was made by Daz 3D. Where would the profit be if they yanked the right for any site but there own to sell content for V4? Offsite linking helps your customers to find the content you are selling products for, from clothing textures to characters. Offsite linking also helps people in the community share links to amazing free stuff not hosted here. I do not feel that this is an issue nor have I ever. I think this should be allowed and I think restricting this will hurt the community.I know many many artists who choose not share their free stuff here anymore with this being one of their reasons. If you want to fix this and bring more traffic , perhaps it is time to rethink this rule.

If you want to fix this and bring more traffic , perhaps it is time to rethink this rule.

Completely agree, applying this rule will not benefit anyone in any way.

Okay guys, I'm Johnny and I am usually found hiding in the relative safety of the Daz forum. I just want you to know that you are not being ignored all your comments on this thread and the "final questions" thread are being taken on board. I guess the first issue of the original post was regarding the members worried about censorship and some members feel it was designed to remove anything we don't like to see. I feel this has been answered and it is a no go or we wouldn't be out to nearly 3 pages over the current concerns and the many posts each and every day over the entire site that have survived since this notification has gone out. It was only ever implemented more on the grounds of further clarification of the existing TOS primarily to stop fights and/or abuse of other members. It has been outlined by the members themselves there has been some pretty ordinary times on the walls of the forums over the years. It is not against the TOS to disagree with a comment or put your opinions forward.

As a staff member I can give you my personal guarantee we were never instructed to crush any members comment that we didn't like the look of and providing it was within the guidelines it would not be our place to do so. My monitoring has not changed at all.

Thank you

Here's an idea! Do away with everything. Just keep the Marketplace and a troubleshooting forum for purchases. Maybe then the community can pull it together and have a new forum set up that does not depend on a store, have free exchange of ideas, urls, links, freebies etc from all over Poserland. I would subscribe to a forum/gallery that was tailored to the users' wishes instead of coming to all these crapfests all the time.

LPR001 posted at 10:25AM Thu, 18 February 2016 - #4255693

Okay guys, I'm Johnny and I am usually found hiding in the relative safety of the Daz forum. I just want you to know that you are not being ignored all your comments on this thread and the "final questions" thread are being taken on board. I guess the first issue of the original post was regarding the members worried about censorship and some members feel it was designed to remove anything we don't like to see. I feel this has been answered and it is a no go or we wouldn't be out to nearly 3 pages over the current concerns and the many posts each and every day over the entire site that have survived since this notification has gone out. It was only ever implemented more on the grounds of further clarification of the existing TOS primarily to stop fights and/or abuse of other members. It has been outlined by the members themselves there has been some pretty ordinary times on the walls of the forums over the years. It is not against the TOS to disagree with a comment or put your opinions forward.

As a staff member I can give you my personal guarantee we were never instructed to crush any members comment that we didn't like the look of and providing it was within the guidelines it would not be our place to do so. My monitoring has not changed at all.

Thank you

I agree with what you have written but with the greatest respect the term 'being taken on board' is a well used phrase here and to many translates to 'we hear what you say but we ain't the slightest bit bothered'. Your commitment and intent may be very different, I cannot tell at this point for, as a Poser user, I do not frequent the Daz forum not that I have anything against Daz, I frequent Hivewire3D a lot these days where many of the forums are a real mix of Poser and Daz users and I enjoy the threads immensely, particularly as there is no personal attacks.

The other point I would make is that blocking links to tutorials and freebies on other sites is clearly your right but it does not lay easily with the stated intent of making Renderosity less of a pure market and more of a community asset.

One other point I would make is that, before I stopped spending here I purchased all of the Dawn items that I thought I might use despite the fact that the figure was sold on another site. Not very different to the ten years I have been shopping here for M4 and V4 items then.

@hornet3d actually when I take something on board I chase it up. Just as I have for each and every member that has ever felt the need to contact me via sitemail or asked on the forums with an issue or otherwise. But I know where you are coming from I probably could have chosen my wording better. I worked with a guy we called Mirrors because he was always looking into it. Similar take on the phrase in a way.

LPR001 posted at 11:13AM Thu, 18 February 2016 - #4255709

@hornet3d actually when I take something on board I chase it up. Just as I have for each and every member that has ever felt the need to contact me via sitemail or asked on the forums with an issue or otherwise. But I know where you are coming from I probably could have chosen my wording better. I worked with a guy we called Mirrors because he was always looking into it. Similar take on the phrase in a way.

I am happy to take you an face value and I really do wish you every success. Sorry to say I think Rendo is a shadow of what is was, on all fronts, but I would love to see it return to the community it once was. To that end I will support anyone who has the same goal.

@hornet3d Thank you we are on the same page and I am under no illusion there is a task ahead of us. It takes both staff and members to make it happen and better communication might be a good place to start.

LPR001 posted at 12:14PM Thu, 18 February 2016 - #4255715

@hornet3d Thank you we are on the same page and I am under no illusion there is a task ahead of us. It takes both staff and members to make it happen and better communication might be a good place to start.

I agree better communication would be a good starting point but when you reach the point you are losing members it becomes difficult because, for them at least, the communication is over. One thing is for sure, it is going to be a lot harder to keep and gain members than it ever was to lose them.

Just my 2 cents worth... Rendo has ALWAYS forbidden LINKS to other stores, but I get the feeling the are less "aggressive" when we only credit/mention using products in our art from other stores (with NO link in any form). I myself do appreciate that bit of 'relaxing' their rules....

I still have a LOT of frustration with how the site is set up, but I tolerate it, as I still love the gallery... and AT LEAST I can still get SOME POSER products in the store here... :)

Yes Lyne but the announcement in the Freestuff forum says not to link ANY freebies except those hosted on Renderosity. It doesn't mention commercial sites so will you be able to let us know about the freebies on your site or will that also be seen as competition to Rosity's freestuff? It's all so unclear that I don't think even they know what they want to do.

Hi everyone-

For any questions regarding this new Freestuff rule, please do refer to the link below:

https://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/?thread_id=2899729

Thank you! And.. to go off of what Johnny said, no censorship. When a site member seems very, very unhappy, that's usually when I reach out to them via sitemail and have a one-on-one conversation with them regarding how they're feeling. So.. I can definitely start doing this more.

Lyne posted at 2:56PM Thu, 18 February 2016 - #4255797

Just my 2 cents worth... Rendo has ALWAYS forbidden LINKS to other stores, but I get the feeling the are less "aggressive" when we only credit/mention using products in our art from other stores (with NO link in any form). I myself do appreciate that bit of 'relaxing' their rules....

I still have a LOT of frustration with how the site is set up, but I tolerate it, as I still love the gallery... and AT LEAST I can still get SOME POSER products in the store here... :)

What it means Lyne is that any link you have to your website for your freebies will be removed - doesn't matter if you aren't selling anything. If you want people HERE to know about your freebies, just give them the name of your site for them to Google or upload your things to the Rendo freestuff section. But you can't link anyone to your site anymore. Or ShareCG....or anywhere else that's not Rendo. :(

ok, here is a person (myself, in case you're wondering), who has, since march 2001, been an active member at 'rosity. He has seen the comings and goings of various staff members, has lost a few on-site friends to the pale reaper, has laughed in the chat-room and offered assistance to those needing it. I started to learn to code in python for the same reason, and a very helpful chap called SnarlyGribbly was more than willing to assist me. Without the likes of people like him, among others, this community has started fading into a hole that it will be lucky to recover from.

The meat of this community, and the reason it has survived so long, are the members. So let's take a quick look at this once thriving community now, trolls came along and shredded the forums, and renderosity did nothing until it was... sadly.. too late. They then followed this with a less than well-received (yes I am being PC) site redesign and hoped that the usual "we are looking into this", "we will mention it to the programmers", which literally translates to - OMG stop crying, we don't care! and people started closing accounts and leaving the community. As if all that that was not enough, they then start adding rules (and I really don't care when these rules were made, the current staff are the ones implementing them.) that prohibit the cross sharing of data, um... guys? do you really not know how the internet works? on that note, all of my freebies on another sharing site, will now have to be edited to remove all links to renderosity. Sorry, if you cannot link to me, I cannot link to you. Since the great majority of my freebies were poses (and actually some decent sets I believe) they helped to bring people into the site, people knew me on both sites, and I had many requests for different pose sets. My enjoyment of my chosen art form has declined so much because of the fascist nature of this site recently, that I no longer even open poser.

Standing there, clapping your hands and cheering while the city around you burns is very reminiscent of the proverbial Nero, burning the city of Rome in 64AD (and while this is not really what happened - before the history buffs start challenging it, it seems very apt here.) Watching the people flee to more desirable climes, and cheering that, instead of attempting to put out the fire, is in actual fact, quite a ludicrous stance to take. Your statement of "We no longer want your business, FOAD," has been, for the most part, clearly received by a community who no longer matters.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it," - George Santayana