Hi everyone-

I'm trying to make some changes/improvements to the site and I'd like to start off with the two biggest issues/bugs currently happening at this time. To some, I may not have been as empathetic as I should have been and for that, I apologize. I'd like to change that and alter your negative opinion of me. I'm doing this one step at a time starting with changing my approach on how I conduct myself.

I'm open to hearing what you guys have to say, so please let me know. Please remember though - I don't want this to break-out in another bashing Hope session like last time. I get you're upset, but please be respectful and mindful that your words can be hurtful. While I don't know the software ins-and-outs, that doesn't mean that I'm unable to relate to you guys. It just means you have to help guide me and teach me some things. Maybe we could chat about your favoite software programs, how to use them and why you use them. I'd like to learn a thing or two from you and in the process, you could learn some things about me as well.

I fully comprehend all of your complaints and I am bringing them to our weekly meeting in the hopes that we can change things to bring back Renderosity, your home that you love. I promise you that I'll try my best to follow through with your suggestions.

Thank you, Hope

Actually Hope I don't think anyone was "bashing" you but since you represent Renderosity you kind of have to expect a bit of flak since you are front and center in some of these changes that have been made:) My advice is to take it all with a grain of salt since most of us here are kind of on the volatile side. Hell I used to be terrible in that regard and still can get there if need be but I often think that it just isn't worth the effort most times. And as food for thought you should realize that to a lot of people here the changes that have been made recently feel to a lot of members hurtful and disrespectful, especially those of us who have been here from the beginning and some of us even before. I wish you good luck in your endeavor to mend the rift but we will see how it goes as time goes by because with some it will be an uphill job and some it will be never. Nick (Beelzebulb)

Well, I don't think you should lock threads, particularly the most active. If a thread is very active, it's clear that "there is nothing left to discuss" isn't true, or else the thread would die all on its own.

This is how you kill a forum. Lock the threads that people are most interested in! I mean, seriously. You can't coerce, persuade, or cajole people into actively posting in threads that don't interest them. If nothing else, surely you've noticed that by now.

Instead, if you have a problem with specific posts in a thread -- say so. Not a general, "everyone please be polite" post, because that really doesn't help anyone. It's like critiquing a picture by saying, "Well, some of the pictures posted in the gallery could be better." If you want to be helpful, you MUST be SPECIFIC. And if a post violates the TOS, don't punish everyone in a thread by locking the thread. Delete the violating post and inform the user why it is a violation of the TOS. (Even Daz does that.) Otherwise, locking a thread is like closing a subgallery just because a few naughty images were posted there.

And if there are no violations of the TOS, then there is no reason to lock an ACTIVE thread, is there?

I mean, you may not like what's being said in the thread, or may not find it interesting. But it's not the users' job to entertain the mods with exciting forum posts. What matters is what the USERS want to read and respond to.

If I come here to respond to a thread and I find it locked, guess what? I'm not going to make a brand new super nice and positive topic. I'm going to go away.

And I am not picking on you: This problem has been plaguing the forums for years, and got particularly bad in the last few years in the Poser forum. And you wonder why the forums are so quiet compared to before? The answer is that as long as threads get locked -- some times at the first sign of discomfort -- one person, not even a mod, but a user, can silence EVERYONE ELSE.

Just a suggestion.

@moriador I seriously doubt those threads were locked at the first signs of discomfort as that might have been day one. Hope did not decide to close the threads on her own in fact I was the one who suggested it and with good reason. When this debacle broke most of the staff kept out of it in order for the members to put forward their objections which is their right. I don't think any of us can deny it all went and got a little ordinary and probably could be deemed not the most respectful exchange between staff and members. Considering the staff are also members and follow the same TOS with a few additions thrown in for good measure we all were affected by these changes and on top of that we have the task of implementation whether we like it or not. But we are not drones as it has been claimed and we are welcome to voice our opinions and objection too although we might not start a thread and raise the topic. I was concerned by some of the changes as from what I was reading even the members had made valid points in a few areas that needed to be followed up. I did this took the challenge and come onto the forum threads to clear a few things up, these points were of a clear benefit and not a negative for the members and I get told I don't believe you or have some post thrown at me that I had been asking for days to see and could have cleared this up much quicker and progressed. I am a Daz 4.9 DRM thread survivor and I know how these things go I had no intention of getting out to page 30 and still none the wiser from both sides. The threads are locked and clearly visible so you can see where I have been. I have no objections to even requesting one thread to reopen or we can take it up from here I am not fussy about the location but it will only prove useful if we can actually discuss it and try to work through our issues and not end up with some sort of hate campaign or slinging match which is basically how it was looking. I think it is about time some members consider that yes the staff do work for Renderosity but they took the job to work with and assist the members many which are our friends and 99% of the time we are on your side and try our best to resolve issues without too much fuss. Personally I think that mistakes have been made from both sides here but then in the heat of the moment something's gotta give and things happen. I am quite happy to proceed and all that is required is some decent communication. If members want this just let me know and a few of the staff can come on the thread and have the convo.

I've been around Rendo forums a long time, seen a lot of drama. It's just the way people are, and unless someone actually makes a criminal threat against you personally, it's just the way it is. Sigh.

@infinity10 If someone attacks you personally or is harassing you then you have the right to report them and it will be taken seriously. It does not have to get to the point of criminal proceedings territory or threats, In fact far better to report well before it gets to that stage for all involved. This applies to any member that feels they are in that situation.

What ever happened to putting up an official announcement about the TOS as it is regarding youtube links and the like? Is that ever going to be cleared up? This is part of the reason why we're so pissed about the closed topics.

I was concerned by some of the changes as from what I was reading even the members had made valid points in a few areas that needed to be followed up. I did this took the challenge and come onto the forum threads to clear a few things up, these points were of a clear benefit and not a negative for the members and I get told I don't believe you

That was me. I won't believe the claims until I see an announcement about it from Hope. Clarifying within a topic means little esp. when not everyone is going to see it compared to a new announcement. It's really not anything personal and I'm not accusing you of lying.

Making changes is good but for me a bit to late. Closing threads with the words *there is nothing left to discuss * made me , and I can only speak for myself , feel like a teen and mother says :there is nothing left to discuss. How do you know that we where finished with the discussion? No one was rude or bashing anyone, we where talking about things that are important to us, the Members.

We are not just names and order numbers, we are not just using the Galleries, we are actually paying your wages.. each and everyone of us who spend money here.

And then being told there is nothing left to discuss did it for me.

All the other things I could live with , but basically being told to shut up ... and that is what it felt like when I saw yet another thread closed with the words * there is nothing left to discuss *

Why not let a thread run it's course , people did not attack any moderators nor each other.

Those kind of threads I would call * heated discussions * and those happen if people CARE about someone or , a place like Renderosity.

Do you know it really gets painful when you are in a position of sitting on the fence. I can see why the threads were locked, one at least had become very confusing but I was very annoyed with the 'there is nothing left to discuss' comment it sounded patronising and uncaring. I know that was not the intention and I am not pointing any fingers, just honestly stating what my reaction was.

I have not seen many personal attacks here of late, well nothing to what when on even a few months ago. Trouble is, at the same time the threads have become barren to what they used to be. I spend more time at Hivewire3D these days, some months ago (before their forum was hi-jacked) that would not have been possible, the forums were just not busy enough. These days I could spend most the day there.

I have said it before but I think I need to say it again, I do not blame Hope, this place was well on the skids before I started seeing her name in the forums. Up until now I had the view she was the only one that really wanted to change things for the better. More recently LPR001 has joined her and seems to have the same aims. I do not doubt their intentions or their ability I just doubt whether they will be supported in their aims.

Maybe it is time to take a deep breath and look at the situation again, clearly Hope has done this perhaps the membership needs to do the same. That is not to say the members should stop complaining but if we are to move forward, at some point, we have to let go of the hurt and the anger, justified as it may have been. We also have to accept, on both sides, that there is a lot gone wrong here and it is not going to be put right in days or weeks. The Prime club for example needs to be rethought and relaunched it is way past tweaking in my view.

"Maybe it is time to take a deep breath and look at the situation again, clearly Hope has done this perhaps the membership needs to do the same. That is not to say the members should stop complaining but if we are to move forward, at some point, we have to let go of the hurt and the anger, justified as it may have been. We also have to accept, on both sides, that there is a lot gone wrong here and it is not going to be put right in days or weeks. The Prime club for example needs to be rethought and relaunched it is way past tweaking in my view."

I understand the hurt and pain that has stemmed from the last few years. I do get it and I do empathize with you guys on that. I am very sorry for how things were in the previous years. Unfortunately, we cannot undo the past. Boy would I like to undo a few decisions I've made, but life doesn't work like that. Instead of looking toward the past, I would like to move forward - like hornet3d suggests. He makes a good point in letting some of the anger and hostility go. It will take time to heal, but I'm fully confident that it can happen.

And... the reason why I closed those threads was because there was no longer any constructive criticism. If you guys have suggestions on how to make this community better, I'd love to hear them. Again, I'm open to hearing your opinion. Just because we don't go with what you suggest does not mean we're not listening. We always hear what you're saying, but we then decide as a team whether it's a good idea or not. It's nothing personal - I promise. But, I apologize if you felt as if I was treating you guys like children. That was not my intention and I'm sure most of you already know that.

@IceEmpress - If you can suggest a way we can explain this new TOS rule a bit further, I'm open to hearing it! Please let me know so I can make it a bit clearer.

Johnny, the other mods/coords and I all want the same thing for the community. We can a friendly and helpful environment people can come to.

Thanks everyone.

Well, I for one DID think the "there's nothing to discuss" comment was intended to be uncaring and patronizing. I think you're pretty fed up with the community at large for not swallowing the new rules without complaint. I don't necessarily think it's YOU as much as I think it's the owner(s).

I've already found another place to post. It reminds for all the world of what this place USED to be like years ago. I won't be coming back here. I've only been back a few times to read a thread or two that I've posted to, mostly out of habit, but that will surely dwindle once the posting at the other place picks up (and it is).

Later.

Laurie

hopeandlove posted at 5:22PM Tue, 01 March 2016 - #4258490

"Maybe it is time to take a deep breath and look at the situation again, clearly Hope has done this perhaps the membership needs to do the same. That is not to say the members should stop complaining but if we are to move forward, at some point, we have to let go of the hurt and the anger, justified as it may have been. We also have to accept, on both sides, that there is a lot gone wrong here and it is not going to be put right in days or weeks. The Prime club for example needs to be rethought and relaunched it is way past tweaking in my view."

I understand the hurt and pain that has stemmed from the last few years. I do get it and I do empathize with you guys on that. I am very sorry for how things were in the previous years. Unfortunately, we cannot undo the past. Boy would I like to undo a few decisions I've made, but life doesn't work like that. Instead of looking toward the past, I would like to move forward - like hornet3d suggests. He makes a good point in letting some of the anger and hostility go. It will take time to heal, but I'm fully confident that it can happen.

And... the reason why I closed those threads was because there was no longer any constructive criticism. If you guys have suggestions on how to make this community better, I'd love to hear them. Again, I'm open to hearing your opinion. Just because we don't go with what you suggest does not mean we're not listening. We always hear what you're saying, but we then decide as a team whether it's a good idea or not. It's nothing personal - I promise. But, I apologize if you felt as if I was treating you guys like children. That was not my intention and I'm sure most of you already know that.

@IceEmpress - If you can suggest a way we can explain this new TOS rule a bit further, I'm open to hearing it! Please let me know so I can make it a bit clearer.

Johnny, the other mods/coords and I all want the same thing for the community. We can a friendly and helpful environment people can come to.

Thanks everyone.

We where still talking though and you do not really know what comment would have come after x .w or z's , so just closing a thread because * in your opinion * there was nothing left to discuss was just wrong. I have been a member on many forums, and the ones that turned to stop freedom of speech just like that are long gone.

YES you can close a thread if people are rude, if people threatening one another, but not just because YOU think there is * nothing left to discuss *.

People need to vent and talk with each other when they are unhappy, sometimes you get * constructive critique * sometimes you won't, but what you get are members that are happy to have a place where they can talk.

I never make personal attacks and in cases where people can confuse what im saying as if it were, i have no problem explaining what i meant or apologize for the misunderstanding.

But Renderosity seriously have to stop rolling out these rules or at least be willing to undo them when the community react to them as they have done with the last one. I wrote a private message to you the moment i saw this rule, trying to convince you to undo it, as nothing good would come out of it. I know that this is not your decision alone, so im not blaming you.

Several members including myself have posted suggestions to things you could do, some which doesn't even cost you anything and we have also given you a lot of reasons why this rule is so bad as it is. You know my background if you have read the post in the vendor forum and have seen others with similar background, arguing for why this rule is not good, yet it is met with silence in form of no counter arguments or explanations to why you would enforce a rule which have such effect on your community as it have/had. From what i could make out of the responses i got, is that it seems that a lot of these rules or idea, is made by people with an economic background and as long as their numbers add up on paper, its assumed that it probably reflect the real world as well, which then result in these weird rules being made, which doesn't have a positive effect on anything, simply because the initial assumptions of how things are related doesn't reflect reality, and then the moderators are left to clean up the mess.

My bet is that this rule was primarily, because it was assumed that a lot of sales or customer disappeared through third party links or if you could simply get everything posted here on Renderosity it would boost your sales. The reason why this would be possible was due to the assumption that you have a very large amount of free content already and therefore it would be no problem convincing or "forcing" the freebie creators to agree to this rule. However this is of course just my guess, so i might be wrong. The virus thing was either a complete misunderstanding of how the internet works or simply a way of trying to make a stronger arguement of why this rule was needed. I tend to believe its the last, at least i hope so.

But the community quickly destroyed the virus argument and I also think that me and another vendor have made a very good argument for why you need the freebie creators, probably more than they need you.

So again its extremely important i think, that you are a lot more careful when adding these rules, how you present them, but most of all if the rule is bad and the community is really against them and you have no arguments to defend them, admit it and simply roll them back, end of story.

And as already suggested to you, make a community group and pass your ideas through them before simply applying them, lots of people here are dedicated members and would love to give you feedback, before you simply apply them to your forum.

If you make a rule and you really think its good, be ready to defend it with good arguments of why they are needed and don't simply repeat the initial arguments, when people have already made them invalid and if you have no good arguments, roll back the rule. But of course try to avoid to much of this, because its very confusing, but its better than keeping a rule in place that no one likes are not beneficial and that you can't defend why is needed.

hopeandlove posted at 10:47AM Tue, 01 March 2016 - #4258490

"I'm open to hearing what you guys have to say,"

Hope, an administrator/moderator should have some type of higher standard than members. I'm not bashing anyone of you. I know it is a tough job being sandwiched by both the members and the company. You're not doing yourself any favor by making a statement that you are willing to open up to what we have to say right after you locked a few threads by saying that's nothing more to add. You are contradicting yourself. How do you want us to gain your trust back with those very actions.

I have nothing more to add to this thread. I just want to speak my mind. I apologize if I have hurt you with those words. I have no ill feeling about you as a person. JV.

As I see it, one of the problems is that the questions still remain unanswered. I have not been as active as before in either the store or the forums, but have been stopping by daily to she what has, or hasn't changed. For instance, I have followed the FreeStuff, linkage question since it's inception, and to tell the truth, I STILL do not know what the rules are. One moderator says one thing and then is contradicted by another. One says the rules have always been in place, but have been ignored, one says they are brand new. One says you can link to sited x,y,z but not to A,B,C...and then someone says, nope, no linking at all. After all this, I still have no real idea of what is, or is not allowed, and I have read the TOS and every single post made. We're getting frustrated, the admins are getting frustrated, when all it would take is a clear, concise answer. Maybe the admins are being jerked around by the Powers That Be, as much as we are, but perhaps...sometimes...no answer, or a simple "I don't know", might be better than a CYA or CY (bosses) A. I try to be reasonable in these discussions, so, to the moderators, if I have ever offended, I apologized profusely. Such was never my intent. Peace, Rhett

Ok, I speak straight down the middle here so i'm going to put the unanswered questions on the line or some I've seen

1. What are we allowed to link?
2. Where are we allowed to link?
3. How does it affect the affiliate program?

Now a point I'm going to put out here from my own point of view as a store owner in 2D digital graphics world and how this whole thing is coming across in my mind to myself as an owner.

**"If a beginner comes up to us to ask for help making digital scrap kits, would we tell them they only can buy from our store and be a designer in our store using our products? And only use the tutorials available in my store" **

My answer is NO because in this case it'd be detrimental to the store quite simply because the beginner would think "No chance!" Reason being we make from designers on commission and from sales they do choose to give us. Making people feel limited is NOT encouraging creativity. We direct them to blog tutorials, tutorials here for poser, tutorials in other stores, stuff that can help them in other stores.

Renderosity needs to realise that the MarketPlace and site depends on us not only as buyers but also those of us who are/were vendors to continue to flourish, the same way it is in our store.

No links means we can't help a beginner, or a low income finish off their art and discourages them in learning more. I know this better than anyone, I've been there, still am there and maybe always will be.

We need to encourage fresh talent to keep the 3D world going but right now banning these links are discouraging people from trying to help or being able to help.

Hope, I said to you in last thread and I will re-iterate it here. "Get to know the members and let them know you a lot better." Saying we don't know you will encourage other re-courses for people to gain an insight into who you are. They don't need to know all about you but they do need to know you

Piper

In truth, I am always and will always be open to hearing what you guys have to say. Again, the reason for that locked thread is because some were just yelling at us and telling us we don't listen instead of offering advice and criticism for the most recent rules. As I mentioned previously, this rule is not new. It was implemented a few years ago and then brought back.

And, @3d-mobster - I think getting member insight would be a good idea! I will see what everyone's take is before we make any huge changes. Thanks for the tip!

takes the ! key off Hope and stamps on it

no backsliding. serious remember.

What would you like to know about me? Ask me questions about myself and I'll gladly answer them. If it's a bit personal, those are the questions I might hesitate to answer - depending on what they are.

1. What are we allowed to link? We are not banning ALL offsite links. Links to known, safe, established websites are not being banned. If you want to link to a tutorial on YouTube or Lynda.com, info on Smith Micro or DAZ, and links of that nature are not being banned. If it's your profile link to Daz, Hivewire or something similar, it's not acceptable.
2. How does it affect the affiliate program? You can help promote your business by having ads on our site. For more information, please see this link : https://www.renderosity.com/affiliates/

Feel free to ask more questions. Thanks.

That's what I'm saying Hope - personal life, we don't need to know lol. YOU as a person we do! To gain trust and respect we need to know more about you. Sorry but wouldn't put the private part of Khai and I's life up for viewing here lol.

I am a member of the affiliate program our store has been for 2 years now Hope and we're linked in. We have poser artists in our store too.

More free sites would be needed to but I'm talking sites that host freebies where an artist sees something that may help somebody - they can't post the link - what we need is a page of "allowed links" where we can go.

There's a saying that's true when it comes to disability it affects here too. "Instead of DISabling us, ENable us" Give us the ability to know where we CAN go instead of putting it as a freebie ban.

Piper

@Amethyst_Heart Shortly I will pin a thread shortly in regard to what links can be posted. Until then what has been put out there is

Links to known, safe, established websites are not being banned. If you want to link to a tutorial on YouTube or Lynda.com, info on Smith Micro or DAZ, and links. What Renderosity don't want is your link to land at a competing marketplace however as you can see Daz and SM mentioned there are info sheets and tutorials etc that are useful and there is no issue linking to those.

So they are main sites included in the description as a guide and YouTube is example so a tutorial on Vimeo etc is fine too

Here is example of a recent linking which is acceptable

https://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/?thread_id=2900136

Okay - as I said, ask anyway. What do you want to know about me so you guys can trust and respect me?

Thanks, @Johnny.

As I mentioned previously, this rule is not new. It was implemented a few years ago and then brought back.

But can you in short please explain, why you don't roll back the rule? Its obvious for anyone on the forum, that this have had consequences. Make a fresh beginning roll back the rule and reconsider whether this is actual worth keeping. As you say it have already been ignored for a few years so why not ignore it a bit longer? :) At least that way you might have a chance of bringing back a few freebie creators, remove the confusion with what links are allowed etc. And show the community that you actually listen when they make a complain or urge you to do something that they do not feel improves the community.You have the chance and are the only one who can make the first step here. So please consider whether its not a much better approach to take this rule up again at your weekly meeting and have a discussion about it while taking the arguments put forward by the community into consideration, and if you still reach the same conclusion as you did a few years ago then keep the rule otherwise scrap it.

I wasn't here when they first took it away, so I really can't say why. What I can say is.. it was a group discussion that admins had together smoothing over the positives and negatives of this new rule and we decided to implement it.

Again, you can link to tutorials and sites that help other members. I know you and the VP had an in-depth conversation about this, @3dmobster. He had stated his points and cases on why we implemented it in the first place.

Here are some of the questions/points he made in the Vendor forum:

So, let's get to the true premise of your argument and stop dealing with pretexts. Provide me the reason(s) why it is more suitable for a member to have to click a link and go to a third party site to download a freebie rather than click a link that takes them to our existing Free Stuff area, since that member is already on the site, to download the Free Item that has been reviewed by our staff to be safe? Tell me how the third party option makes more sense and provides an equal or greater sense of security and privacy for the member by leaving the site to download an item from a site they are likely not familiar with otherwise? Secondly, what is the purpose of having a Free Stuff area if it is to be circumvented by members providing links to third party sites to get Free Stuff. How does that improve Renderosity site traffic and make the process more simple, safe, and convenient for the member if they are just coming here to sort through links to go to a third party website to get free items completely bypassing the already existing Free Stuff area?

Thanks.

OK i'm done even trying here.

If any vendor had took a post out with the vendor forum or repeated anything from there, they'd be picking themselves off the floor on the way out the door.

I'm sorry but I'm no longer willing to try

Piper

I appreciate you posting these here, but unless im allowed to post my answers to all these questions as well, which i ain't due to the rules in the vendor forum about sharing informations from there. I find it to be a bit biased, which i hope you understand. Personally you have my full permission to move the whole thread to the public forum, if you like.

Especially this:

"As to having people pay to be whitelisted to post third party links - we really already provide that service via advertising on the site."

If you read my reply to this specifically you will quickly realize that, neither have I suggested or even come close to suggesting anything like this, and is actually arguing strongly against even mentioning such thing in this forum!! But since you don't post that, you now present it as if I suggested it. I have not even come close to suggesting anything like that. So please either move the whole thread to the public or allow me to post all my arguments from the forum, so this is presented in a fair manner?

I'm not asking you to violate the vendor code of conduct. I was simply bringing up some of the points to the surface again, but do not want to get you in trouble, so I've removed some of the conversation.

As I mentioned, this rule was made by all of us as a whole. You can link to off-site tutorials via Youtube, Lynda.com or something that helps other members. But, what you cannot link to is YOUR blog, or a freebie site you've created because it's competing with us. I want you guys to share and help each out - just without the competing links.

Thanks.

I'm not asking you to valid to vendor code of conduct. I was simply bringing up some of the points to the surface again, but do not want to get you in trouble, so I've removed some of the conversation.

If im not allowed to post my answers to these, at least remove them as if they are valid arguments, because they ain't. Also you have another vendor in that thread trying to explain to you, why it is not. At least present the whole thread or nothing :) Again I don't mind the thread being posted here. I have nothing to hide and stand by everything i said in it.

@IceEmpress - If you can suggest a way we can explain this new TOS rule a bit further, I'm open to hearing it! Please let me know so I can make it a bit clearer.

Your announcements claim no linking whatsoever. Wheatpenny, LPR, and Lobo claim that we can link to sites like Youtube and Amazon-- and sites with tutorials but no freebies or 3D products.

So now everyone is confused as we are getting two different stories.

Also, whether this rule affects freestuff affiliates, along with any other effects the rule has on the freestuff area.

Also, this has yet to be addressed, but why is Renderosity concerned about virus links in forums when their on 3rd-party ad-banners give people malware, as has been reported ever since the site redesign?

Was that just a vendor's forum post I just read? Hope, please, just....stop and listen. Let everyone get to know you through your actions and words. Don't force anyone to get to know you. It will happen in good time. This is a community that is well known for eating it's young. We are a volatile, cantankerous bunch that like to, need to vent, whether it makes sense or not. That is part of how creative minds communicate. It's like being in a meeting and brainstorming.

As has been said many, many times. It's not just the freebie rule. That is the straw that broke the camel's back. It started before that. It started before you were hired..but came to a crescendo starting with the site redesign, the gallery mess up, the MP mess up and finally but certainly not least of all, the Prime Club mess up. It is clear now after being told time and time again how to resolve some of the issues, that people still feel they are not being listened to. Locked threads with a "nothing more to discuss here" whether or not it was meant to be dismissive that phrase is dismissive.

Imagine if you were talking to someone face to face, it was a bit heated or not so much, they look you straight in the eye and say "Nothing more to discuss here" and they turn and walk away. Would that make you feel good or would it leave you with your mouth hanging open and your brain going WHAT???!!!!. Seriously.

I'd like to know why you're so ashamed and embarrassed of your online published writing that you or your colleagues immediately delete any post which even mentions them, without any explanation at all and without due regard for the TOS?

You say you want us to get to know you, yet you steadfastly refuse to answer any questions about your artistic interests. Why?

Then we discover that you're a writer and as that may well be your only pretension to any kind of artistic endeavour we are naturally interested.

So why the draconian censorship of posts that do not contravene the TOS in any way at all, but just suggest people Google to see what you have published yourself openly on the web?

hopeandlove posted at 10:27PM Tue, 01 March 2016 - #4258614

So, let's get to the true premise of your argument and stop dealing with pretexts. Provide me the reason(s) why it is more suitable for a member to have to click a link and go to a third party site to download a freebie rather than click a link that takes them to our existing Free Stuff area, since that member is already on the site, to download the Free Item that has been reviewed by our staff to be safe? Tell me how the third party option makes more sense and provides an equal or greater sense of security and privacy for the member by leaving the site to download an item from a site they are likely not familiar with otherwise? Secondly, what is the purpose of having a Free Stuff area if it is to be circumvented by members providing links to third party sites to get Free Stuff. How does that improve Renderosity site traffic and make the process more simple, safe, and convenient for the member if they are just coming here to sort through links to go to a third party website to get free items completely bypassing the already existing Free Stuff area?

Thanks.

That you don't understand the reasons** after they have already been explained multiple times in other threads** shows that: a) You are totally out of touch with how the community works, and b) You really are not listening

It's the way in which you presented my articles. Just like you tell me I come off rude at times, the way some of you talked about my articles felt like a personal attack. I can relate to you guys on the writer's level. I am passionate when it comes to writing just like you guys are passionate when it comes to your artwork.

What specific questions would you like me to answer?

And, @ladyelf - as I mentioned, the threads no longer seemed to provide any criticism or anything constructive, so I locked them. But, the way in which I locked them came off rudely and for that, I apologize.

They weren't presented in any way at all, and you know it. There was only a suggestion that someone might want to google for them. How on earth is that a personal attack?? Insecure, or what?

I'd be honoured of someone wanted to google for my published work on the internet. Which, in fact, they often do :-)

@Amethyst_Heart - I am a member of the affiliate program our store has been for 2 years now Hope and we're linked in. We have poser artists in our store too.

Noted and on the list for clarification. In the meantime and I am pretty sure is the answer to your question - If you are a affiliate of Renderosity and have this in place then I guess you would come under the same ruling - Links to known, safe, established websites are not being banned. As they are generally checked, backlink enabled and so on which meets the criteria involved in these types of agreements. If the link does not land in your store I suggest this is not an issue in your particular case. If you have any issues contact me or seek support with Marketing Dept.

It lands in the store but since NOT a 3D store shouldn't be an issue

Thanks for clarification LPR

Piper

IceEmpress posted at 9:13AM Wed, 02 March 2016 - #4258632

@IceEmpress - If you can suggest a way we can explain this new TOS rule a bit further, I'm open to hearing it! Please let me know so I can make it a bit clearer.

Your announcements claim no linking whatsoever. Wheatpenny, LPR, and Lobo claim that we can link to sites like Youtube and Amazon-- and sites with tutorials but no freebies or 3D products.

So now everyone is confused as we are getting two different stories.

Also, whether this rule affects freestuff affiliates, along with any other effects the rule has on the freestuff area.

Also, this has yet to be addressed, but why is Renderosity concerned about virus links in forums when their on 3rd-party ad-banners give people malware, as has been reported ever since the site redesign?

Hope made post in the freestuff and we have corrected that it was regarding the links to the freebies in that forum and regarding freebies that still stands. But if Wheatpenny, LPR, and Lobo and everybody else claim that we can link to sites like Youtube and Amazon-- and sites with tutorials but no freebies or 3D products. Then it is safe to assume that you can. So since most others have accepted this and moved on considering I have not even made the pinned post here yet I suggest you do the same. I really don't want to hear it as it has been explained already and you are just being disruptive. Are you trying to tell me that even if we managed to get some alterations to the existing issues members are wanting seen to we are going to have to explain it to you 50 times also? Let it go please or you follow the ruling of no external links if that's what you want and everybody else can post the acceptable ones to their hearts content.

Amethyst_Heart posted at 10:01AM Wed, 02 March 2016 - #4258648

It lands in the store but since NOT a 3D store shouldn't be an issue

Thanks for clarification LPR

Piper

With the info you provided it sounds like you are a safe link to me Piper. :-)

There's a coupla major flaws in this whole "Only Our Freebies" debacle:

1. The Freebies search don' work fer shit,
2. A large percentage of the Freebies ARE shit, &
3. Discounting the previous 2 points, Rendo Freebies don' have all the shit one could want, anyway

Therefore; offsite links. Expecting ppl to get all their needs here is just egotistical in the highest extreme. STOP IT!!!

why it is more suitable for a member to have to click a link and go to a third party site to download a freebie rather than click a link that takes them to our existing Free Stuff area, since that member is already on the site,

I went over this in depth before, Hope, plenty of others have as well, but here goes, since I know it's been awhile and you have to wade through 20 pages total of posts to find it.

1. Someone might want to host the freebies on their blog, so that other people will read their blog.

2. Someone might prefer to use Dropbox, Skydrive, Google Drive, etc. so that they can link to the freebies on different forums/sites they post at, rather than having to upload them to more than one place.

3. The freebie belongs to someone else, meaning that the user cannot upload it to Rendo Freestuff.

4. The freebie belongs to someone else, and is not easy to find via search

5. The freebie belongs to someone else, and is on their Dropbox, Skydrive, Google Drive, etc. thus impossible to find via search engine.

6. Some people have complained that the freebie upload process is too much of a hassle or too difficult to figure out. (I understand that this, unlike nearly every other problem/grievance, is actually being worked on, by UVDan. Unfortunately, he has been working on it since mid December :( )

7. Some people have complained about the number and size of advertisements on the main page, Marketplace, Gallery, and Freestuff pages, and will only post freebies/galleries elsewhere to avoid it.

8. Many have complained about how slow the main page, Marketplace, Gallery, and Freestuff pages are to load. Not everyone has a fast internet connection, and even some who do find Rendo's pages to be too much of a hassle.

9. Someone might want to host their freebies on an external site to draw people to their gallery, which unlike Renderosity, does not force them to go through the hassle of required thumbnail/image sizes. This is SO MUCH of a hassle that this alone has resulted in plenty of people either refusing to go to the trouble of uploading new gallery images or even deciding to delete their gallery period.

Nine reasons right there. I am sure there are plenty of reasons that I missed. I realize that many of these reasons (e.g. site design) are completely out of your control, which is unfortunate-- esp. since you admins clearly have more sense than TPtB.

considering I have not even made the pinned post here yet

But WHY is there no new pinned announcement post? This is what I don't understand, esp. since the lack of one is detrimental to the site.
While plenty of people here have spent their time reading every post in these threads, do you really think that everyone does, esp. the lurkers and mostly-lurkers?
And I am not trying to be disruptive. Things like this make me suspicious (or maybe some would call it paranoid) as to what could motivate one to not do this-- and I have a vivid/wild imagination with no off switch. It also bothers me greatly because this is just one more among a huge pile of poor decisions that is hurting this site. I read every post in these threads, as do most who post in these threads, but there are plenty who come in, see that there are more than 3-6 posts in a thread, and say "**** that, I'm going back to my Poser project" Others might not check out these threads at all, instead relying on third hand reports via PM or offsite forums. A new announcement pin (few people are going to read an edited old pin) at least gives them a single, solid thing to link to or read.

Are you trying to tell me that even if we managed to get some alterations to the existing issues members are wanting seen to we are going to have to explain it to you 50 times also?

The problem is no new pinned announcement. It makes me question why. And it makes me doutful that we are actually allowed to link to the things that all of you tell us we are, even if I see UVDan linking to allowed places. Because it makes no sense.

Is it something that you guys don't want most forumites to find because you would prefer no linking to external sites at all?

Or is it that you want to make a sticky but have been forbidden from doing so by TPtB because they don't want most forumites to find because they would prefer no linking to external sites at all?

Or is it that TPtB have forbidden you guys from making any more pinned announcements on this issue because they have a maximum sticky quota rule for single subjects which you guys have already exceeded?

Are TPtB punishing all of you admins because 3Dfineries dared to reveal how much he and the other admins have tried and tried to get through to TPtB about the backlash from their decisions?

Or is it that TPtB have been unclear on the rules and that the admins are all going with the closest translation of the vague statements that TPtB have made about this, but don't make an actual pinned announcement because you guys are unsure?

Or perhaps TPtB have said "yeah, this is the TOS for now, you can link to those sites, but we haven't decided if we're going to make this permanent or not, we could change our minds at any given moment" and so you guys don't bother with a sticky.

#3 and the last two are the ones that I find most likely.

Well I am going to have to go with the paranoid version IceEmpress and just to be very clear I have never had an order from TPtB since I have been here and rarely from Hope as I just go about my job and decisions are made by the staff at this level and your much loved changes are made further up the chain. Hope may from time to time introduce changes and these are not usually made in our section for anything of this nature. Occasionally I will run something by Hope if it has merit there is usually no issues. 3DFineries is fine and well last I heard and there has been no reports she is chained in the basement by the TPtB because of a comment she has made regarding anything. The only thing I can zone in on is basically two words out of your statement.

• Or is it that TPtB have been unclear on the rules and that the admins are all going with the closest translation of the vague statements that TPtB have made about this, but don't make an actual pinned announcement because you guys are unsure?

Partly correct I am preparing the post for the clarification of the rule which I intend to pin to the community center forum. All I need to do is get the green light on my wording I think I have it covered (closest translation) but I am sure you will agree if I was to put this up and come back in a week and say sorry guys I got something wrong I would get strung up for it. In the meantime any member that uses what I have determined and put in various forums when asked about it can just blame me if they get pulled up. Providing they have followed those instructions as they were taken from an official source of reference they will have nothing to worry about.

I don't blame the members for being upset and covered it at the top of this discussion, these changes affect us all and I do want to work through them with you. But we really are better to move onto the next issue and see where it sits

FreeBass posted at 5:16PM Wed, 02 March 2016 - #4258695

There's a coupla major flaws in this whole "Only Our Freebies" debacle:

1. The Freebies search don' work fer shit,
2. A large percentage of the Freebies ARE shit, &
3. Discounting the previous 2 points, Rendo Freebies don' have all the shit one could want, anyway

Therefore; offsite links. Expecting ppl to get all their needs here is just egotistical in the highest extreme. STOP IT!!!

Just let me know if you want this comment removed FreeBass I thought the disagreement was with Renderosity not it's members that have uploaded freebies in good faith. I know everyone claims we censor members views at every opportunity and I don't want to stand in your way of making your point but number 2) is a little on the harsh side IMO considering they have nothing to do with this.

"Just let me know if you want this comment removed FreeBass"

Nope. I said it, & I meant it.

I don' mean to disparage those who have uploaded "sub-par" items, in fact I applaud them fer havin' the balls to do it when I've seen so many ppl too intimidated to show off their work. But facts are facts; when anybody can upload (practically) anythin', overall quality is gonna suffer.

OK, perhaps "shit" was a poor choice of words fer this point... how 'bout "unusable"? Whatever ya wanna call it, if someone here asks where to find a "X", I fer one am gonna direct them to the best "X" I know of, whether thas a prop, texture, tut, or whatever. And if that gets me banned (or whatever the penalty may be), well there's about 15 years worth of accumulated information the Community loses access to. Your ('Rosity's) loss, not mine.

P.S: Don' ferget to take my years of acquired knowledge & multiply it by the number of others who have been run off/ lost faith & left.

"Why is it better ... yada yada"

Clearly no-one was listening the first time, so here we go again.

First, let's make an important distinction which seems to have been overlooked by Admins here. The Poser community is not the same as the Renderosity community. The Rendo community is only a subset of the Poser community. However, Rendo members are, usually, part of the larger Poser community too. So rules intended to benefit the rendo community but which harm the larger Poser community are not going to be popular, even with rendo members. With that understood, let's move on...

(a) There are a whole load of amazing free motor cycle models out there, in the Poser community, made by Peter Koever. Unfortunately, when people want one of his models, we are no longer allowed to link to his downloads. They are pretty cool, though. you should go find them. Seriously, you should. then you'll understand why it is unkind to the community to not allow links to them. Enjoy the hassle of finding them. Now here's the rub: Peter is dead. It is highly unlikely that you're going to be able to get him to create a Renderosity account and upload his freebies here. Before he died he gave permission for his freebies to made a available to the community under certain conditions, so we have the benefit of them Well, everyone except Rendo members...

(b) Check out BluEcho's Antonia freebies website. Oh wait, you can't. Maybe try and find it via Google. Found it? You probably didn't bother, but let's pretend you did :-) You will see that on the site is a collection of fabulous freebies for the free Antonia model, all made by different people. If you want to get started with the Antonia model, that is the place to go. The freebies are there for the whole Poser community to enjoy. Please explain why you think it would be better for those freebies to be only available to the Rendo community, and scattered across the free stuff area here under each contributor's own account (and, of course, losing those made by people without an account here), rather than having them conveniently all in one place for the benefit of the whole community?

(c) I make freebies for the entire Poser community, including Rendo members. They are quite popular, with literally thousands of downloads each. Explain to me why it is better for the Poser community for me to upload them only to Renderosity, accessible only to Renderosity members? Or do you expect me to upload them to every community site individually, with all the different submission requirements, promo requirements? No, I'm keeping them all in one place where the whole Poser community has access. They don't even need an account to download stuff. And each download has a news page which informs users of the planned future developments etc. At the moment, every community site out there knows where to find my freebies. It's only rendo members who can't be told...

Poser users (and other users most likely) go from one community site to the next, getting freebies from all of them, chatting with fellow artists on all of them, and buying from all of them (not all have stores, mind you). That is the 'community' people talk about here. Rendo is just part of it. But the rules being introduced here are putting up huge barriers to the community way of life, in the hope that it will somehow benefit Rendo members, forgetting that they are also part of the wider Poser community you are isolating yourselves from. And, as you can see from the responses here, it isn't working out too good, is it?

When you understand how an online artistic community works, we might see fewer of these dumbass rules that are benefiting nobody at all, not even Rendo. All these freebie removals, gallery deletions and going to other sites to chat cannot be good for Rendo?

I hope that helps. When you start taking into account the needs of the whole community, not just Rendo's little bit of it, that's when things will start improving and the anger will subside. This policy of isolationism is having a predicable effect and is not doing Rendo any good at all.

amen.

This is a strange subject for me, in that in ten years of playing with 3D art I think I have used less than ten freebies, so I am not a heavy user. I very rarely link to other sites either and when I do it is only with the aim of helping someone who had a question, as I don't use freebies I am unlikely to point to any. As such I have no axe to grind and it should mean I am not the slightest bit interested in the thread, but I am. The reason I am is because, during threads on the Prime debacle I realised how lucky I was to have spendable income for my hobby each month and for some, the $3.50 products and freebies were the only way a lot of users obtained any new content. That makes it a community issue and I therefore I am interested.

LPR001 has stated that the intent is to put a post clarifying the situation but needs time to make sure it is right. After all that has been said about inappropriate responses it seems totally unfair not to give that time. It is clear however that linking to freebies is a particular issue and maybe a compromise can be found. It appears that there is some concern that Renderosity would lose business which I understand but I am not sure how real that concern is. Lots of the people using freebies do so because the cannot afford content so they are not really going to be spending here anyway. Some artist use nothing but freebies because they have no choice. There are others that use freebies and do buy content but if they are reading the link here they are at Renderosity well, getting someone into your site must be the first aim for a Internet company.

There has been a lot of anger and negativity here, and rightly so, but let me just try and explain why this is the case. Sometime ago someone who was a regular contributor to the forums basically said they would be quiet for a while because the computer used for 3D art was broken and they could not afford another computer. That person used only freebies for the same reason that they could not afford and new computer but gave back to the community by creating freebies. Members here offered to donate computer parts, motherboards, processors, graphic cards. Most for just the cost of shipment, some even offered to cover the cost shipment as well. Not only does this show the community in a positive light, it also shows how important freebies are to them and the wider community and why they get upset if they are impacted negatively.

I know the rule will be clarified, if the team can also find away to protect access to the freebies that is acceptable to the membership I think it would be a big step in the right direction.

LPR: Thank you for clarifying about this. In the future though it might help to inform people a bit ahead of time that you're currently working on it.

I don't blame the members for being upset and covered it at the top of this discussion, these changes affect us all and I do want to work through them with you.

Don't forget that on top of that, emotions are also high about Daz's DRM and RDNA being merged with Daz. All of this within a relatively short time period (encryption rolled out at DAZ what, 2 months ago?) It isn't a factor in my behavior, but there are a lot of people who feel like the 3D hobbyist world is crumbling around them.

And Freebass, that was really uncalled for. You should consider yourself lucky that your post hasn't been modded (yet)

@IceEmpress Oh I remember the Daz DRM debacle it sends a shiver up my spine and now I am here at Freebiegate. None of this was on the glossy brochure when I signed up. I actually come over to the forum for the sole purpose to work through this with the members and see if we can find resolution. We can't change everything but sometimes there can be a workaround. It has been a rocky road in 3D world that is for sure if 2017 looks anything like this I am going to take up crocodile wrestling it will be safer. But I do understand how the members feel and will try my best to go through each issue.

@hornet3d I could not agree more I am of the same opinion in regards to the fact many members love this industry whether it is a hobby or a goal to create content for some income and life's circumstances can leave them little money to achieve this and it is a long road. I can imagine the freebies mean a great deal to them. In regards to the linking rule what I have put up I think is pretty close to the mark and have said if that is followed then the members can hardly be at fault over something I have indicated as acceptable. Once I have the easy to follow version good to go I will post it, If I was to do this any sooner I could possibly set myself up for a butt kicking from the members, Just a feeling in my water and the last thing we need is a breakdown in communication.

"And Freebass, that was really uncalled for."

And what exactly was uncalled for? My voicing an opinion? My statement of fact? Or perhaps my choice to speakly bluntly in plain english? Do tell. Did I suggest filtering any content submissions? Did I suggest removing anything? Did I personally attack anyone? Did I suggest anythin' other than 'Rosity stop this link ban? Uhhh... that would be no, no, no, & no.

Here's a lil' heads up; there are those of us who come from a world where praise/ merit was earned, where awards were given fer winnin' (not merely fer playin'), & offense was taken not given. And ya know what? That was a damned sight better world than this modern PC/ SJW crybaby society in which one must walk on eggshells or just shut the fuck up lest the slightest comment hurt someone's feelies. I fer one refuse to play that bullshit game, & anyone who doesn't like my views (or method of statin' them) is free to ignore me.

THANK YOU Malysse , could not have said it better.