Word on the street, on facebook anyway is that Poser is, might be going to a subscription service rather than a purchased outright software.....?? Now for me, that would be a wrong step and would probably put the final nail into the lid of the coffin.... Currently DS is free and offers better figures right now so why would I want to pay an annual subscription for something else..? I've resisted moving to DS because I have used Poser since version 4, but a subscription version would mean one of two things for me; 1) Try to get to grips with Studio, 2) Stay with the Poser 11 version I currently have... Photoshop went down this route and lost customers, I can see this happening with Poser if you go down this same route....

I wouldn't trust Facebook if they reported the sky was blue.

I'll wait until I get official word on that one. In fact, why don't you just ask Jenn Blake?

EClark1894 posted at 10:54PM Wed, 14 August 2019 - #4359377

I wouldn't trust Facebook if they reported the sky was blue.

I'll wait until I get official word on that one. In fact, why don't you just ask Jenn Blake?

It was on the Poser official Facebook page.....

If that's the case, then this long-time suffering user is going to go to SHUDDER DAZ route. I dropped Adobe when it became subscription.softwar.n???

Why is it we can see the doom looming if it goes this way and they can’t? Makes me wonder if it is just the easy root. I switched over to DS over a year ago, took some studying but it lead me down a better path.

From the thread:

https://www.renderosity.com/heres-what-the-poser-team-has-been-working-on-cms-21552

jennblake () posted at 4:36PM Mon, 15 July 2019

We are not implementing a subscription model. Not sure where this started. But not the case.

Stupid Rumor mongers

Bill

? That's good news!

thefixer posted at 7:47PM Wed, 14 August 2019 - #4359378

EClark1894 posted at 10:54PM Wed, 14 August 2019 - #4359377

I wouldn't trust Facebook if they reported the sky was blue.

I'll wait until I get official word on that one. In fact, why don't you just ask Jenn Blake?

It was on the Poser official Facebook page.....

I checked out the Poser and Renderosity Facebook pages. No mention of Poser going subscription anywhere I can find. Got a link?

whew - that was rather upsetting, glad it was nothing

I wouldn't believe that until I saw an official announcement here on the forum, or in the store. I've never been a member of Facebook, and don't trust anything I've ever seen there when following links.

Personally, I think they would've announced that at the same time they announced going to just one version, rather than having the separate Standard and Pro versions. That would've been the time to make that sort of announcement . . . IF it were actually true.

If the OP actually saw that on the Official Poser Facebook page, then someone other than Renderosity personnel posted it.

Sounds like the gossip/rumor mill is running as strong as ever.

Word is Putin is placing false rumors to incite a Poser DAZ war. I saw it on facebook.

EClark1894 posted at 7:15PM Wed, 14 August 2019 - #4359377

I wouldn't trust Facebook if they reported the sky was blue.

This, ten thousand times, this. ^^^

This is the comment in question...… "Poser - 3D Figure Design No for now. SM used a third-party to manage licenses, and we are not continuing with that agreement. We have people on both sides of the subscription model, so we are still deciding."

Direct response to Jason Tudor questioning if it was going to happen...

https://www.facebook.com/Poser3DFigures/posts/10157007920217479?comment_id=10157008429737479¬if_id=1565831638712380¬if_t=feedback_reaction_generic

thefixer posted at 4:32AM Thu, 15 August 2019 - #4359419

This is the comment in question...… "Poser - 3D Figure Design No for now. SM used a third-party to manage licenses, and we are not continuing with that agreement. We have people on both sides of the subscription model, so we are still deciding."

Direct response to Jason Tudor questioning if it was going to happen...

https://www.facebook.com/Poser3DFigures/posts/10157007920217479?comment_id=10157008429737479¬if_id=1565831638712380¬if_t=feedback_reaction_generic

Okay, I see it now. But that was in answer to a question, hardly "official word on the street". Nothing about subscription models is mentioned in any of the articles, and JennBlake flattly denies it.

Subscription models and license purchase models can exist side by side. Marvelous Designer have done this for years. Users can choose the model that suits them best: short term subscription for a specific project or 'perpetual' for constant use. Poser does not have a position in the market like the one that Photoshop has in theirs. They will not be able to command the move Photoshop made (and that drove me back to Corel PaintShopPro).

That being said: I would not be surprised when Rendo woulkd offer a combination of Prime membership and Poser subscription as an alternative solution next to traditional license purchase.

FVerbaas posted at 6:49AM Thu, 15 August 2019 - #4359432

Subscription models and license purchase models can exist side by side. Marvelous Designer have done this for years. Users can choose the model that suits them best: short term subscription for a specific project or 'perpetual' for constant use. Poser does not have a position in the market like the one that Photoshop has in theirs. They will not be able to command the move Photoshop made (and that drove me back to Corel PaintShopPro).

That being said: I would not be surprised when Rendo woulkd offer a combination of Prime membership and Poser subscription as an alternative solution next to traditional license purchase.

So you're denying what Jenn said about Renderosity not considering a subscription model?

Well, Jenn said before that they aren't going subscription, and then official Poser page said "not for now, we are still deciding". Perhaps something changed.

In any case, I highly doubt they'd go mandatory subscription - most programs have a purchase option that gives you that version forever, and a subscription option that puts you on time but gives you all updates. With Adobe it was an entirely new fiasco: they decided to sue people who had previously purchased older versions, as if running old programs was somehow a contract breach.

FVerbaas posted at 6:37AM Thu, 15 August 2019 - #4359432

That being said: I would not be surprised when Rendo woulkd offer a combination of Prime membership and Poser subscription as an alternative solution next to traditional license purchase.

As an option, this would actually make sense. I do wonder how many people do that prime membership thingy, though (a hypothetical among the general userbase, not among the forumites.)

EClark1894 posted at 5:05PM Thu, 15 August 2019 - #4359431

thefixer posted at 4:32AM Thu, 15 August 2019 - #4359419

This is the comment in question...… "Poser - 3D Figure Design No for now. SM used a third-party to manage licenses, and we are not continuing with that agreement. We have people on both sides of the subscription model, so we are still deciding."

Direct response to Jason Tudor questioning if it was going to happen...

https://www.facebook.com/Poser3DFigures/posts/10157007920217479?comment_id=10157008429737479¬if_id=1565831638712380¬if_t=feedback_reaction_generic

Okay, I see it now. But that was in answer to a question, hardly "official word on the street". Nothing about subscription models is mentioned in any of the articles, and JennBlake flattly denies it.

And yet there it is, posted by someone on the official Poser development team saying it's not been decided, which in anyone's language means they ARE looking at it..... Quote: "We have people on both sides of the subscription model, so we are still deciding."

I suppose it could work, but I see such a system being a disaster under various applications.

MKDAWUSS posted at 6:26PM Thu, 15 August 2019 - #4359494

I suppose it could work, but I see such a system being a disaster under various applications.

I certainly wouldn't do it.

General consensus is that most software will be subscription based by 2020. Maybe that seems a bit soon, but not really. 2025 most definitely. So even those that aren't right now most likely will be within the next 5 years or less. It's better for the consumer because they don't have to worry about being stuck with outdated versions or forking out a huge chunk of cash in order to get updated, and its better for the provider because it guarantees a constant source of revenue, much more revenue than they were getting before - just look at how successful Adobe has been with it. None of the major software companies that have gone to subscription have gone back, because it's far more profitable. Some folks don't like it, but statistics show that is a small minority. Everything is moving to subscription models, from razors to movies and music, to clothing. And for the most part consumers have welcomed it. It allows a much wider margin of people access to higher priced goods and services that they would not necessarily be able to afford in the "old" business model, which in turn means a broader customer base. So even the companies that aren't so keen on the idea of making their software/product subscription based will eventually be forced into it due to competition, or go out of business. The folks that don't like it are mostly just older generations. And I suspect in the PC world Apple will be the first to make their newer machines subscription based - especially since they've been fighting this war with 3rd party repair companies for a good while now. If they migrate over to being a service provider instead of a product seller, then your Apple device no longer actually belongs to you and they win the legal battle with the repair man and ultimately the consumer.

Kinda hilarious to see that late capitalism means "you don't own anything anymore" huh.

Maybe, but that's the fault of the consumers, not the business. Most people prefer to be sheep.

AmbientShade posted at 7:54PM Thu, 15 August 2019 - #4359505

Maybe, but that's the fault of the consumers, not the business. Most people prefer to be sheep.

Up to a point. It's not doing Microsoft any favours, if the stories about Office are to be believed.

just look at how successful Adobe has been with it

Only because Adobe has a near-stranglehold on the market and it knows it. Their stupid subscription plan is why I have no intention of moving one step beyond CS 5.5.

Afrodite-Ohki posted at 12:25PM Thu, 15 August 2019 - #4359448

Well, Jenn said before that they aren't going subscription, and then official Poser page said "not for now, we are still deciding". Perhaps something changed.

In any case, I highly doubt they'd go mandatory subscription - most programs have a purchase option that gives you that version forever, and a subscription option that puts you on time but gives you all updates. With Adobe it was an entirely new fiasco: they decided to sue people who had previously purchased older versions, as if running old programs was somehow a contract breach.

I find that amazing in that Adobe gave away and validated CS3. It's like saying here is free software and now we are suing you for using it.

Just try it adobe. I'm right here, buddy boy.

One major problem I would have with Poser going the subscription model route would be their development schedule. Plus, they're extremely dependent on OS development. So, if I go to the subscription model not only would I have to pay to upgrade Poser, but also my hardware. I'd practically be obligated. It's already hard to upgrade if you're on a fixed income at my age. For a hobbyist like myself, that would pretty much spell the end. I already switched to the PC from the Mac because I couldn't afford t upgrade my Mac hardware. Apple's expensive and I've been using it since I started in computers. I just reached a saturation point. Now Windows is threatening me about moving on.

That stranglehold is made possible by their customers. Every one of their customers have the option to buy Corel (for now - as they're moving to subscription-only later this year) or any number of other graphics editing software, or use the free gimp, krita, etc. They choose not to, because for whatever reason they prefer Adobe. And for a lot of those folks that reason is because $20 a month is much more affordable than $500+ up front. And holding on to CS 5 is fine. I still have CS4 (which I never use anymore because 2018/19 is superior in just about every way), for now but eventually it will no longer function in the latest OS, which you will also eventually be forced to upgrade to when other software you want or need to use requires it, or when that old winXP etc system dies.

AmbientShade posted at 3:40PM Thu, 15 August 2019 - #4359517

That stranglehold is made possible by their customers. Every one of their customers have the option to buy Corel or any number of other graphics editing software, or use the free gimp, krita, etc. They choose not to, because for whatever reason they prefer Adobe. And for a lot of those folks that reason is because $20 a month is much more affordable than $500+ up front. And holding on to CS 5 is fine. I still have CS4 (which I never use anymore because 2018/19 is superior in just about every way), for now but eventually it will no longer function in the latest OS, which you will also eventually be forced to upgrade to when other software you want or need to use requires it, or when that old winXP etc system dies.

LOL — I'm on a Mac, running 10.10 (which isnt that old, thank you very much), and both the machine and the program are in fine shape. By the time that needed upgrade comes along, I will be long dead, thanks for asking. FWIW, I do most of my business work on a laptop running 10.6, and it too can handle any- and everything I need. The latest OS is not always worth it, and Mac hasnt put out a decent OS upgrade in years. It's all bells and whistles with things that dont even remotely affect the large percentage of their user base.

Macs are notorious for randomly dying (I know from personal experience). And in fact, one of their current lawsuits deals specifically with certain practices deliberately killing or slowing down their phones, in order to force customers to buy new. They also have a habit of denying warranties when moisture sensors in the hardware are triggered - which can be triggered simply by being in a humid environment.

Afrodite-Ohki posted at 9:56PM Thu, 15 August 2019 - #4359448

Well, Jenn said before that they aren't going subscription, and then official Poser page said "not for now, we are still deciding". Perhaps something changed.

That is what I went by indeed.

AmbientShade posted at 4:29PM Thu, 15 August 2019 - #4359517

That stranglehold is made possible by their customers. Every one of their customers have the option to buy Corel (for now - as they're moving to subscription-only later this year) or any number of other graphics editing software, or use the free gimp, krita, etc. They choose not to, because for whatever reason they prefer Adobe. And for a lot of those folks that reason is because $20 a month is much more affordable than $500+ up front. And holding on to CS 5 is fine. I still have CS4 (which I never use anymore because 2018/19 is superior in just about every way), for now but eventually it will no longer function in the latest OS, which you will also eventually be forced to upgrade to when other software you want or need to use requires it, or when that old winXP etc system dies.

Funny you mentioned Corel. An avid CorelDraw user since v.4. I went on and upgrade to '19 since they'll phase out upgrades. I guess I'll stay with '19 to the bitter end then.

SeanMartin posted at 2:02PM Thu, 15 August 2019 - #4359509

just look at how successful Adobe has been with it

Only because Adobe has a near-stranglehold on the market and it knows it. Their stupid subscription plan is why I have no intention of moving one step beyond CS 5.5.

Pretty much this. Same story with any other market where there is a practical or near-monopoly - MS Office being one (and a reason why Google Docs is taking off pretty solid in the work-world). However, once you get to markets where there is actual competition, you quickly find that unless the entire market is built for (and dominated by) subs already (e.g. media such as TV/music/movies ), subscription models get approximately nowhere.

Sometimes though, subs/rentals do work under certain conditions. Amazon Web Services is an infrastructure rental/subscription outfit that startups and SMEs find useful, albeit pricey as hell once it scales up enough or if usage discipline is not strict enough; they call it "Infrastructure As A Service", but that's just a fancy name for a subscription/rental thing. The vast majority of people out there literally rent-to-own their phones (at the same exorbitant rates that a typical rent-to-own place charges), and don't even realize it, because it's called a "subsidy" in the paperwork.

In this case? I could work, but not as the dominant model. For one, the competition charges $0.00 for their software product(s). Poser can get away with charging money for theirs, because they have features DS does not, but it would tend to grate when you're writing (virtual) checks every month just for the dubious privilege of keeping your toy from going dead on your computer.

Another point - when times got lean in the past, I knew I could always crawl into my computer and fart around with the CG stuff I had already. With a sub model, well, let's just say that I really wouldn't want to be staring down a choice between making rent/groceries and keeping my little CG toys alive. Of course the toys would have to go, but damn... if it were a purchase and not a sub, that choice would never come up, and I'd never have to go download $competitorProduct for free, then import all my Poser stuff into it. This would generate a lot of resentment that no company would want to deal with if economic times (personal or macro) got hard enough for that subject to come up... and jumping back when/if times got better (at least not unless there were an uber-killer feature or three involved) would become a really big abyss to hurdle.

So, yeah, let's just say that no, I don't see Poser shifting to a sub model as its only option. It doesn't have the dominance that Office or Adobe CS does (in fact, I daresay it's rather underdog-ish these days.)

AmbientShade posted at 2:38PM Thu, 15 August 2019 - #4359517

That stranglehold is made possible by their customers. Every one of their customers have the option to buy Corel (for now - as they're moving to subscription-only later this year) or any number of other graphics editing software, or use the free gimp, krita, etc. They choose not to, because for whatever reason they prefer Adobe.

That reason often has to do with business - either they got/get it free from work, or they're so used to the workflow, that they cannot spare the time and risk learning (and then relying on) something else (and then explaining to prospective clients when they ask that "oh, this is just as good as Photoshop if not better!", etc.) I don't even have to mention (but will) the fact that most artist-oriented jobs out there, more often than not, specifically mention Adobe CS by name.

Bit of a trap, really.

AmbientShade posted at 2:42PM Thu, 15 August 2019 - #4359520

Macs are notorious for randomly dying...

Wasn't always that way.

My 2013-era MacBook Pro was built like a tank, ran like one, and my missus still uses it today, no issues. The only parts replaced on it were the two cooling fans due to dust eating the bearings after nearly 5 years of daily use (at the time). Cost me $20 and 30 minutes of time getting in there to replace them.

My work MacBook, which was built in late 2018, I got brand-new six months ago (to replace the 2015-era model which had died), has this neat touchbar and 3 acres of touchpad. Problem is, it dies randomly when I leave it running (attached to VPN) over a weekend, or sometimes just a few days. The "A" on the keyboard is already starting to wear off. Six. Months. In.

I think a sub only model would certainly kill the app. Of course as soon as that happened its 'free competition' would certainly become a paid subscription as well.

Macs dying must be mighty random, then. I've been using them since 1984 and I've never had one die on me.

meatSim posted at 6:18PM Thu, 15 August 2019 - #4359539

I think a sub only model would certainly kill the app. Of course as soon as that happened its 'free competition' would certainly become a paid subscription as well.

I used to think that, but talk about a slap in the face to DS users. Charging for what used to be free, and using the same subscription model which put your competition out of business. Talk about owning a customer.

meatSim posted at 3:43PM Thu, 15 August 2019 - #4359539

I think a sub only model would certainly kill the app. Of course as soon as that happened its 'free competition' would certainly become a paid subscription as well.

That would require iClone to do it as well, as well as the 10+ alternatives that a one-minute Google search coughed up... Did you know there's even one you can use in a browser?

EClark1894 posted at 3:53PM Thu, 15 August 2019 - #4359540

Macs dying must be mighty random, then. I've been using them since 1984 and I've never had one die on me.

Up to late last year, I would have agreed. My last personal laptop (the '13 MBP) would last up to a year or more between reboots, mostly to install an OS upgrade. But when my last work laptop crapped out, and now my current one puking on itself multiple times? I dunno, man.

Daz already has a steady stream of revenue with their content store

and a user base that is largely made up of compulsive

shoppers/hoarders.

Although it seems a bit of a "trap" for them as they have lagrely

Failed to get the Genesis figures embraced by large demographics

beyond their core user base such as the professional CG /VFX and

Gaming industry.

Maxon just went to a subscription model which will be good for

newcomers not having to pay a $3600 USD initial "buy in" cost as

they did in the past.

The "old timers" are less than thrilled.

Autodesk now has a $300 USD per year, "Indie" version to

compete with Houdini's Indie version.

And blender 2.8 is posed to be a paradigm shifiting version

Extremely competitive market right now

IMHO Given its position in the market ,trying to go sub would be certain death for poser ..

Sub only would not be a good move, I agree. However sub as an option could significantly expand its customer base, provided they offer appealing content and features that the competition does not.

Penguinisto posted at 11:04PM Thu, 15 August 2019 - #4359545

meatSim posted at 3:43PM Thu, 15 August 2019 - #4359539

I think a sub only model would certainly kill the app. Of course as soon as that happened its 'free competition' would certainly become a paid subscription as well.

That would require iClone to do it as well, as well as the 10+ alternatives that a one-minute Google search coughed up... Did you know there's even one you can use in a browser?

I just checked it out, it looks like they co-opted Aiko 3 and Rendo's copyright!

quietrob posted at 11:05PM Thu, 15 August 2019 - #4359560

Penguinisto posted at 11:04PM Thu, 15 August 2019 - #4359545

meatSim posted at 3:43PM Thu, 15 August 2019 - #4359539

I think a sub only model would certainly kill the app. Of course as soon as that happened its 'free competition' would certainly become a paid subscription as well.

That would require iClone to do it as well, as well as the 10+ alternatives that a one-minute Google search coughed up... Did you know there's even one you can use in a browser?

I just checked it out, it looks like they co-opted Aiko 3 and Rendo's copyright! (I wouldn't pursue it though. I guarantee that many who that app will end up here)

AmbientShade posted at 7:48AM Fri, 16 August 2019 - #4359552

Sub only would not be a good move, I agree. However sub as an option could significantly expand its customer base, provided they offer appealing content and features that the competition does not.

Yeah, I'm gonna still say no. Not with Poser's two-year development cycle and with the possibility of it's breaking scripts that people like and depend on.

AmbientShade posted at 8:47AM Fri, 16 August 2019 - #4359517

They choose not to, because for whatever reason they prefer Adobe.

The reason usually being because if you want to get a job in creation, or work freelance that you'll have to exchange editable files with a client, you'll be required to use Adobe products - because they're industry standard.

Afrodite-Ohki posted at 6:25AM Fri, 16 August 2019 - #4359571

The reason usually being because if you want to get a job in creation, or work freelance that you'll have to exchange editable files with a client, you'll be required to use Adobe products - because they're industry standard.

Yep - same reason many overpriced, overly-complex and under-performing products that should have died eons ago (Microsoft Sharepoint, Salesforce, etc) are still around... Lock-in.

Now if someone were to create a standard or two for gfx files that become universally used, aren't tied to a vendor-lock/patent, and could be passed around (yeah, right), then Adobe would be threatened enough to stop being so damned customer-hostile. But... I wouldn't hold my breath.

Poser doesn't have that lock-in, and as underdog, I don't think they're in much of a position to dictate anything of its customer base right now.

quietrob posted at 6:32AM Fri, 16 August 2019 - #4359560

I just checked it out, it looks like they co-opted Aiko 3 and Rendo's copyright!

...how? A general shape is not a copyright ripoff. You'd have to compare meshes, code, or suchlike.

Penguinisto posted at 12:02PM Fri, 16 August 2019 - #4359574

Afrodite-Ohki posted at 6:25AM Fri, 16 August 2019 - #4359571

The reason usually being because if you want to get a job in creation, or work freelance that you'll have to exchange editable files with a client, you'll be required to use Adobe products - because they're industry standard.

Yep - same reason many overpriced, overly-complex and under-performing products that should have died eons ago (Microsoft Sharepoint, Salesforce, etc) are still around... Lock-in.

Now if someone were to create a standard or two for gfx files that become universally used, aren't tied to a vendor-lock/patent, and could be passed around (yeah, right), then Adobe would be threatened enough to stop being so damned customer-hostile. But... I wouldn't hold my breath.

Poser doesn't have that lock-in, and as underdog, I don't think they're in much of a position to dictate anything of its customer base right now.

Well, that is one reason most people request format standardization. It was a huge boon when word processing programs like Word first came around. A file created on a Mac could still be read by the same or a similar program on Windows and vice versa.