I need to acquire a power computer purposed specifically for Poser.

Desktop, not laptop, Windows 10

Specific project parameters:

V4 (with Sasha-16 upgrade) hi resolution

One or two instances of the model in play, no crowds

No elaborate sets or objects, just clothing

Dynamic cloth used extensively

Indirect lighting, yes.

Firefly render only. With due respect to Superfly, I have no ambition or need to learn it.

I'm looking for fast loading/saving, smooth manipulation, speed and power in rendering with high specs.

My main question: is this focus best improved by putting money into RAM, CPU, and/or Videocard? Certain, "all of those," but where to put the important $$.

I'm on Poser 11 Pro right now, what would an upgrade benefit for my specific needs above?

Thanks for any suggestions and experience.

::::: Opera :::::

If it were my choice, I'd pay more attention to your "Windows 10" requirement more than anything else because that WILL affect what hardware you should focus on. From what I've read, Microsoft will be releasing the LAST version of Windows 10 in Oct 2025. If you have hardware that does NOT support Windows 10 you may have no alternative but to get new hardware at that point anyway. 

Given that, I'd take a really close look of the hardware that you have, and whether or not it could support upgrading to Windows 11 (or later) eventually. If it doesn't, I'd hold off on your upgrade until you have enough socked away to purchase a rig that will allow you to run an OS later than WIn10.

See https://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-windows-10-is-a-security-disaster-waiting-to-happen/

for 2 figures and only firefly, I'd focus on CPU and maybe ram, but I wouldn't put a ton in.  Then I'd look at a fast ssd for faster loading. I'd go with a mid-range video card since firefly doesn't render with the gpu

If it were my choice, I'd pay more attention to your "Windows 10" requirement ..."

Whoops. My phrasing misled you. I didn't mean "it has to run windows 10 forever," I actually meant "not Mac." I should have just said ...... "windows."  Sorry for that.

::::: Opera :::::

RedPhantom posted at 1:27 PM Thu, 17 August 2023 - #4472784

for 2 figures and only firefly, I'd focus on CPU and maybe ram, but I wouldn't put a ton in.  Then I'd look at a fast ssd for faster loading. I'd go with a mid-range video card since firefly doesn't render with the gpu

I didn't know it was up to Poser 13 by now! I'm on Poser 11. I wonder what I'm missing. Have there been any animation improvements.

::::: Opera :::::

Anything in 3D needs a lot of RAM both for the CPU and VRAM for the GPU. You can do more stuff without taking time to optimize assets and settings. I would start with minimum 32GB of RAM and 12GB of VRAM (cloth sim and other render engines).

You did not mention a budget, so this is for medium cost rig.

AMD Ryzen 9 7950x 16 core, 32Gb and an Nvidia 3060 12Gb, the Nvme drive prices are crashing so a fast Gen4 2Tb and another cheaper 2TB Gen3. Look for a mainboard with 4 memory slots to add another 2x16 RAM later if needed and 2 Nvme slots at least.

If you upgrade both the rig to the latest CPU and Gen4 Nvme drive and Poser to 13, I would guess 2x speed bump for all operations and even more for rendering. Exact numbers depend on your current rig.

Windows 11 brings better HDR support and new OLED TVs from LG or Samsung QD-OLED monitors, are another new upgrade. They are color calibrated from the factory and offer more colors. Also very fast/fluent when moving windows at real 120Hz instead of the fake 60Hz of the old LCD panels. Superfly is probaly not so HDR optimized, more of a personal experience upgrade.

If you are selling your car and want an extreme rig, the current 64 core AMD CPU will be replaced soon with a 96 core according to the rumors. But I am guessing that a 50k$ rig is too much for you, but it can also heat your home.

Most important - Move to Poser 13 - it will really cut your render times down because it uses multiple GPUs for rendering.

Always go with last generation tech.  It will give you the best bang for the buck. In my recommendations below, you save 50% of the cost, but only lose about 20% in performance over current generation - added bonus, you aren't a guinea pig.

I would recommend the following if you are DiYing it:

CPU: AMD 5700x ($180) - 8 cores, 16 threads - enough to run many poorly coded apps (cough, Adobe, Daz Studio, cough) at the same time.  More cores & threads cost more, but don't provide that much more performance.  I have this CPU and have been very pleased with it.

MB: Any X-570 motherboard (starting at $199 new) - you want two x16 slots.

HD1 - 1 2tb NVMe ($66); A PCIe 3 is fine, a PCIe 4 version is about 50% more, but you won't see 50% more performance.  (Mine is a Silicon Power)

HD2 - 1 4tb SSD SATA drive ($140) - you will need this for space. I have eight 2tb SATA SSDs - Poser 1, Poser 2, Daz Studio 1, Daz Studio 2, Stable Diffusion, and 1 spare. I went with multiple 2tb drives (and a PCIe Sata card) when the 4 tb drives had a $50 premium over two 2tb drives - the 4tb premium is now less than $10, and you won't need to purchase PCIe sata card, the X570 will have enough SATA ports.

Video card - Two RTX 3060 12Gb ($262 each);  - Opitx will use both, and it will cut your render times by about 50%.  Each of these have  over 3,500 CUDA Cores. These cards will be available for years - Nvidia is sitting on around 6 million low end Ampere cards. If you are willing to look at used cards - RTX 2080ti - same price as a new RTX 3060, but roughly 25% more CUDA cores.

Don't waste money on the RTX 40 series - the only one that provides a boost over the prior generation is the RTX 4090 & it starts at $1,600.

PSU - get a 750 watt 80 plus gold rated ($110 or so).  Don't skimp here.  A PSU that lets the magic smoke out will usually take other parts with it.

Case - A case is a box to hold your parts.  Avoid RGB.

Windows 10 - get an OEM key - run you about $15.

Total cost is about 1300 before tax, and will take between 30 minutes to an hour to assemble with a Philips head screwdriver.

Guys, he said firefly renders only. Unless it was added with the latest update, Poser doesn't do GPU rendering with Firefly.

IIRC, many 'legacy' mobos may be upgraded to Win_11 support by adding a plug-in 'Trusted Program Module' (TPM). Buys a couple more years for hardware...
Snags are header-types vary, and there's a bit of confusion at present due a lot of TPMs using Chinese chips: YMMV...

Firefly, so CPU-only renders ?? Yes, get lots of nimble cores, the more the merrier...

Uh, do Firefly renders use 'Render Queue' reliably ? If not spending fortune on bleeding-edge GPU card, you may be able to split your budget to get a multi-core, basic GPU, network-render 'Box' to supplement your main system. Set up your scene, check with 'fair' resolution local render, increase resolution and send job to 'Box'...
Next ??
;-)

The day Microsoft makes something that does not suck is probably the day they start making vacuum cleaners.

Yes Firefly is CPU rendering only, but dynamic cloth is mentioned and there are some GPU (nvidia CUDA) accelerated options out there.

I purposed 3060 12GB since it is the lowest cost HDMI 2.1 and decent amount of VRAM for any future GPU tasks, cloth or rendering. With HDMI 2.1, any new TV or monitor can be run at HDR, high refresh rate, 4k, 8k and so on.

With the 7950x there is a very small iGPU, so an external GPU can be bought later...

3Drendero posted at 12:52 PM Sat, 19 August 2023 - #4472978

"Yes Firefly is CPU rendering only, but dynamic cloth is mentioned and there are some GPU (nvidia CUDA) accelerated options out there."

I am reading the posts and this point about GPU or not for Firefly/ClothSimulation helps. If the clothroom and dynamic hair room tap into GPU power, I'll won't diminish the importance of it.

I'm aiming at a budget of $1200 without monitor.

I believe I don't need a huge internal SSD, since .pz3 projects are saved off into two external HD as the work increments.

https://www.amazon.com/Dell-OptiPlex-7000-Business-Bluetooth/dp/B0CB642KFG/ref=sr_1_38_sspa?th=1

Thanks for all the suggestions and debate, my purchase timeframe is mid-Sept, so important but not urgent. I have time to think.

::::: Opera :::::

NikKelly posted at 12:15 PM Sat, 19 August 2023 - #4472970

IIRC, many 'legacy' mobos may be upgraded to Win_11 support by adding a plug-in 'Trusted Program Module' (TPM). Buys a couple more years for hardware...
Snags are header-types vary, and there's a bit of confusion at present due a lot of TPMs using Chinese chips: YMMV...

Firefly, so CPU-only renders ?? Yes, get lots of nimble cores, the more the merrier...

Uh, do Firefly renders use 'Render Queue' reliably ? If not spending fortune on bleeding-edge GPU card, you may be able to split your budget to get a multi-core, basic GPU, network-render 'Box' to supplement your main system. Set up your scene, check with 'fair' resolution local render, increase resolution and send job to 'Box'...
Next ??
;-)

The Dell system I linked has 12 cores. Is that the same as "nibble cores?"

I would recommend the following if you are DiYing it:

I'm thinking about DYI. I have a case and a power supply here ...

Thanks for your Bill of Materials!

::::: Opera :::::

DYI is the way to go.

100 dollar case,

170 dollar asus prime b660 D4 Mobo, (13600k is the highest cpu you should put in this board)

300 dollar 13th gen 13600k

100-200 dollar 32 or 64 gig ddr4, 32 would work fine

75 dollar power supply, Put a 650 in it if all you want is the cpu graphics. (I run a 2060 and a 4070ti, with a 13600k, on a 750w supply)

50 dollar cpu cooler

40 dollar 1 tb M.2 Boot SSD. 

Win 11, is basically a requirement with a 12th or 13th gen cpu.....

Poser 13

Everything is within your budget, and is current top of the line hardware, and expandable. It will score 22-24k in multicore cinebench, depending on a few factors.

In single core tasks the system will run at 5.0ghtz. Which is important with Poser, and run at 3.8 to 4 multicore with an air cooler. 

I know your only doing firefly, but don't let anyone tell you everything but a 4090 in the 4000 series is slouch....

A 4070ti flat out destroys a 3090ti in almost every benchmark, for less than half the price....

shvrdavid posted at 4:56 PM Sat, 19 August 2023 - #4473005

100 dollar case

Kinda hoping you're like from AUS/NZ or Canada, in US dollars THAT IS a lot for freaking tower case ... and it probably doesn't even include the power supply.

TwiztidKidd posted at 10:07 PM Sat, 19 August 2023 - #4473058

shvrdavid posted at 4:56 PM Sat, 19 August 2023 - #4473005

100 dollar case

Sheeeeeeeee.... I paid like $65 for a Lian-Li case a few years back, and I thought that's a lot!!! When someone asked me how much I paid for it, I told them I got it for $40 and that person was like: "Holy crap, that much for a case?" lol

Kinda hoping you're like from AUS/NZ or Canada, in US dollars THAT IS a lot for freaking tower case ... and it probably doesn't even include the power supply.

In the last BeQuiet I bought a few years ago, I never saw the power unit's internal 14" fan turn, because of the awesome air flow the box was providing

operaguy posted at 3:25 PM Sat, 19 August 2023 - #4472992

3Drendero posted at 12:52 PM Sat, 19 August 2023 - #4472978

"Yes Firefly is CPU rendering only, but dynamic cloth is mentioned and there are some GPU (nvidia CUDA) accelerated options out there."

I am reading the posts and this point about GPU or not for Firefly/ClothSimulation helps. If the clothroom and dynamic hair room tap into GPU power, I'll won't diminish the importance of it.

I'm aiming at a budget of $1200 without monitor.

I believe I don't need a huge internal SSD, since .pz3 projects are saved off into two external HD as the work increments.

I've had good luck with Dell. I'm looking at this unit right now.

https://www.amazon.com/Dell-OptiPlex-7000-Business-Bluetooth/dp/B0CB642KFG/ref=sr_1_38_sspa?th=1

Thanks for all the suggestions and debate, my purchase timeframe is mid-Sept, so important but not urgent. I have time to think.

::::: Opera :::::

At Dell.com you will get the 2023 model year for the same price, it includes the 13700 that adds 4 small cores for a small render boost. Maybe already in September the 2024 model year intel 14700 will be out, rumored to add another 20% if used in a big case with a big PSU.

Here is a Dell desktop from Dell.com at 1049, slightly faster 13700 and a slow/cheap Nvidia 3050 8Gb should the need arise. The 16Gb RAM is a little low, but should be enough for the current use case.

https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/desktop-computers/inspiron-desktop/spd/inspiron-3020-desktop/useithbts3020fyzr

At $1249 you get a bigger GPU but more importantly it says "more memory sold separately" so you can add RAM later, if you do more in the future.

https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/desktop-computers/new-xps-desktop/spd/xps-8960-desktop/usexthbts8960gjzr

Again, the next model year is around the corner, another 20% boost for Intel CPUs and better deals on AMD systems on September.

@3Drendero

The OptiPlex has 64 gb RAM, the Inspirion 16 GB.

Difference in price, $150 .... $1200 vs $1050

I would probably call Dell as my purchase window gets closer, to sort out all these different models.

Thank you for your analysis and links.

Side note: seems computers don't include optical drives any longer. I guess they expect us to stream everything?

Intel CPU/Nvidia GPU is going to cost you more than AMD CPU/Radeon GPU but I think it's worth it, I can't tell much about AMD since I only had a couple in the late 90s, and they weren't great at all back then. To me, AMD always felt like an overclocked Intel product. It always looked like the budget alternative to Intel. You can't afford an Intel, buy an AMD, bells and whistles comparison list, yeah yeah!

AMD has been cleaning Intel's clock since 2016 and the release of Ryzen CPUs.  Lots more performance for lots less money.  In addition, their platforms cover more CPU generations.

For example - in 2019, I built a gaming PC based with a Ryzen 7 2700 (Zen+, 8 cores/16 threads), using a B450 motherboard.

This year, I replaced the 2700 with a 5700 (Zen 3, 8 cores/16 threads) - 40% more performance for $179.  Didn't even need to replace the stock fan cooler.  Just update the bios & Bob's your uncle.

Here is an option from Lenovo (IBM sold off the PC business to Lenovo) with AMD for around 1200 dollars. Not a good deal compared to a DIY as you only get 8 cores and need to add more memory. But like Dell they have good service options and you can add a 49$ Bluray USB drive.

https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/desktops/legion-desktops/legion-t-series-towers/legion-tower-5-gen-8-(26l,-amd)/90ux0001us#compatible_acc

If you live near a Microcenter in the US, they should be able to hook you up with a perfect DIY, within budget and offer service options like the big boys at Dell or Lenovo.

https://www.microcenter.com/

@ 3Drendero

Microcenter 85 miles away, not necessarily a deal killer.

Per your link to lenovo ...  3Drendero, you probably won't like this ....

I am stuck on Intel. I tried AMD processor 20 years ago, and "had issues." I know that might be irrational, but to go with AMD now I'd have to get past that prejudice I have.

::::: Opera :::::

I get it and AMD actually has some compatibility issues with the latest new DDR5 platform, but Intel is not flawless and have their fair share of issues too, especially the new big/small cores bullshit of the 12xxx, 13xxx and soon 14xxx series. AMD is now 2 manufacturing generations ahead of Intel, meaning 30% more cores and rendering power. Here is a good head to headset shoot out of the latest AMD 7950x and the biggest Intel 12900, AMD beat Intel by 30%. For $1200 you can get 16 old Intel cores or 24 new AMD cores as a rough translation of cost/performance.

https://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/2910?vs=2908

/Edit, could not find a good and cheap AMD 7950x build at Pcpartpicker, this is the closest as a ballpark figure. https://pcpartpicker.com/b/W97XsY

Latest Intel 14xxx is rumsren to be launched in September and available in October and offer a small boost. It is the same 12xxx and 13xxx with small tweaks and higher power use.

https://videocardz.com/newz/asrock-reiterates-rumors-about-14th-gen-core-raptor-lake-refresh-october-launch-ddr5-6400-memory-support

Thanks 3D.