Should I hereby swear that I won't post any honest comments in anyone's images unless I have every reason to praise and go "oohhh"? Do people SERIOUSLY only want every person who comments to just kiss the "artist's" ass? I left a rather honest comment to someone's wip today, telling the person that if s/he's going for realism, s/he's got a long way to go as the skin in the texture looked very dry and as if there was flaking make up on it... Sooo... the reward for the honesty is insults by IM. Remember that when you're posting a comment that is not ass kissing. Bah.

By all means, if you comment on something I've made, be honest... I'd much rather hear that than hear how great I am... don't get me wrong... I enjoy being told when someone likes something I've done, but if you see room for improvement, then let me know... So long as the comment isn't mean for the sake of being mean, then by all means, give me your honest oppinion.

Hounestly Eowyn, havent you thought about this a**-kissing-thingie around here before now ???

Oh I've noticed it all right. I just didn't realise I'd get insulted by Instant Messages for being honest. Oh well. :)

Don't get me wrong, I love comments that say things like "Outstanding!" but I also really appreciate comments that say things like "Nice, but.." I learn a lot from the "Nice, but" comments. Shrug; if you aren't prepared for people to say something that MIGHT not be completely positive, then don't allow comments to be made on your images.

no comment

Insults aren't so bad. At least you aren't getting death threats.

but seriously, the scale is one through ten, right? if you invite comments, be prepared for honesty around here. how can you ever improve otherwise? "...well my Mom really liked it a lot...."

Oh dear that death threat thing is really creepy :( yeah, insults aren't that bad.

The way I look at it is, don't just say what's wrong with a pic. Offer actual suggestions on how to improve it. And if your criticism is already said by someone else - either offer a different possibility on how to correct it, or say "I agree with so-and-so." THEN, you mention what you liked about the image. Tell them what they need to improve first, then tell them what they did right.

Valandar, those are good suggestions. The only bad thing is, I couldn't really find anything positive to say. Maybe I should've just shut up about it. It's a bit like having to grade the essays of the school kids... you really really need to think of something positive to say as well, and sometimes the only good thing you can come up with is "your have a very clear and nice handwriting". :) Would it be something like "the image is nicely cropped" here? heh..

Attached Link: http://www.wetcanvas.com/Articles2/509/168/

If I absolutely cannot find anything positive to say about an image, I will not say a word. (This does not mean that I think that every image I don't comment on sucks.. it just means that I wasn't moved to say something. ;)

That's an interesting page, igohigh! Thanks :)

Don't worry about it Eowyn! You did a good thing for this person, I think I know what you are talking about S I didn't comment but I bet I would have said the same thing. And if he/she can't take critique then they shouldn't put up wips! If you ever comment on one of my image be honest, I would realy appreciate that S Caro

Eowyn, just want you to know that if I post anything and ask for criticism or comments, I do want the honest constructive comments, so that I may improve. There are ways to make these comments without being insulting. I am sure you weren't insulting because I have read your comments and to me they have always been detailed criticism. I appreciate honesty. It is unfortunate that you recieved this and I hope it doesn't deter you from being honest with at least me. Thank you for your honesty. Sharen

I think we're back to the problem of not being able to inject a tone of voice into an email. I've written things, thinking it was clear what I meant, and then read them back later and thought "Oh my god, I can't believe I said that!" Similarly if a person wishes to give a robust response to a crit (remember some people actually like a verbal tussle), then that response can sound a lot harsher than was meant. If you can't think of anything positive, and by that I don't mean: "This is awesome man!", I mean, "have you thought about doing such and such...", then silence is the most eloquent crit we have. A decent number of page views and no comments definitely means they didn't like it! There is one circumstance when harshness or bluntness is not only justified, but required, that is to prevent someone from doing something massively stupid - usually setting themselves up for public humiliation (and I speak as an expert on that subject). If you can see that someone is about to walk off the edge of a cliff, then you shout. I have to agree with Valandar. The positive suggestion is what I am always hoping for when I post. On the rare occasion it's happened to me, I've always tried to email the person and thank them for their time and interest

igohigh--great page! Something to measure our work against, not just our critiques! Eowyn-- For myself, yeah, i'm often silent when i can't find anything particularly helpful to say. i do try to both praise & suggest improvements. i do want to be kind... but i apply the Golden Rule. Needless to say, i'm almost never thanked for suggesting improvements! Goes with the territory, i guess. :^/ But i AM sorry you got a mean IM! No excuse, there. On the other hand... i don't have a lot of time to visit the Galleries!

I specifically leave the comment box so people WILL give me an honest opinion. I mean jeez, if someone says "Hey that's shit and it looks frelling terrible" I might get somewhat upset. But comments offering ideas to help me improve, or links to tutorials, and whatever else is useful and not derogatory, I WANT. Of course I like the praise too ;)

Really - you do someone more of a disservice if you praise what shouldn't be praised. I'd rather hear of something wrong and fix it, than to get a lot of undue flattery and turn others off by the repeating same mistakes again and again... especially if they're blatant ones. /P

What really gets me about some comments are the people that try to be critics....I normally check out their gallery and from what I've seen in some of them...they have no business critizing anyones images as theirs aren't the greatest either.

I wouldn't worry about it Eowyn. Sounds to me like he/she is having a bad day. Maybe they didn't get a Valentine's card. :) I haven't seen the pic in question but I'd trust your judgement. Hey but remember people, not all of us are chasing photo-realism. As Jules Feiffer put it: "Artists can colour the sky red because they know it's blue. Those of us who aren't artists must colour things the way they really are or people might think we're stupid."

Right. I wasn't as nice as I could have been, but I was 100% honest and simply wanted to point out what was an obvious problem in the wip... and yeah, it was a wip and if you post a wip in the gallery don't you actually WANT people to tell you what is wrong with it? It probably would have been better to shut up, yes. Then again I think if I hadn't said it, someone else would have. I honestly thought the person who had made the texture would see the problem as I've seen their other work and it has been much better. But, lesson learned. I'm usually afraid of being honest because it often feels most people just want their butt stroked with feathers here. I'm glad to read in this thread that there are people who actually DO want honest criticism instead of meaningless praising.

Didn't someone once say, "Speak the truth in love"? Obviously, you're not going to help someone unless you tell them what you really think, just try to do it in a constructive manner (which I am sure you do, Eowyn). =) Jay

One of the big problems with the critics here, is that they don't use any imagination and try to see what the artist was portraying...Example.. I saw a nice pic today(not mine) comment was feet are messed up but nice pic..it was very clear to me that by the expression on the subjects face he was getting ready to fight, therefore his foot was being raised (ninja style)..My point being, before you decide to be siskel and ebert, actually study the image... I have seen many screwed up shoulders and plain out bad pics with 10 ratings and magnificent images with almost no viewings...(how do you think the person that did the killer pic feels) ...So thought for the day try to click all pics and give positive reinforcement

when you label something WIP, to me that's asking people to point out all the flaws. I happen to be brutally honest at times, when asked my opinion I once told my good friend that her new hairdo "looked like something from the play-doh barbershop" before I even thought to try and be kind. (in my defense it DID look that way) basically if you don't want to hear anything bad about your work then don't post it. It's that simple.

My reaction to a semi-negative critique: "Shit. I can't believe I MISSED that!" I then spend the next ten minutes kicking myself in the ass over whatever it was, and try to make sure I never screw up in the same way again.

I don't write great American novels, but as a student of literature I know when I am reading a bad book. Some of the best critics are just art lovers; if their gallery is full of "junk" that doesn't mean they don't know anything about what's appealing in art. I am far from being a great artist, but I like to think that my comments mean something even if my gallery is full of "junk" in someone's opinion. Cherokee, if someone writes "WOW, fantastic! Perfection! Outstanding!" do you go to their gallery to see their work? If you think their work sucks, do you discount the comment? Just curious.

I check out alot of galleries to see what other people are doing....it a pic sucks, I keep my mouth shut.

If I screwed up or missed something, tell me. I do other things aside from 3d art and want the same exact criticism there that I (don't) get here. Except with the other stuff it's usually even more abrasive. If you can't handle an honest opinion you have no right to be complaining when you asked for it. That aside, I take the "don't comment" road rather often. As has been said, just because I don't comment on something doesn't mean I don't like it, but there's a lot of images that get nothing but flowing praise and that I have problems with. However, I dare not say anything that isn't absolute fluff just because I know what the reaction from the author is going to be. I've seen it before and I remember names, so I just shut up and keep walking. It's less stressful that way. /me mutters something about "flat painted hair" as he's walking away.

I don't comment on lots of the images I view either because I've nothing to say, or because I can't think of practical advice if the image needs help. But I don't post WIPs without the expectation that someone will point out to me the parts of the image that suck, and the hope that they will point me in a direction for improvement. I've had to think quite a bit about the 'constructive criticism' end of things quite a bit as a University tutor, and I certainly understand the difficulty when there is nothing absolutely nothing good I can say about a piece of work. In such instances (unless it's clear that the person was not trying to complete the exercise, but merely to irritate me say, an assigned 1500 word essay comes back with nothing but 'Sartre was a git and one of his eyes was wonky') I try to place the criticism in terms of my own understanding: "I'm not sure I understand your point here", "I can't follow your argument through this passage", "It's not clear from this that you understand the argument in question", something like that. Perhaps a technique like that would work. But then, there are just people who can't take a single solitary world of criticism. Oh, well. Let them suffer. That was a pretty scary thread, Zoe...

whoopdat, if that was my flat painted hair, I'd much rather have had your comments. :)

Everyone is going to be better at giving helpful critique by learning the art of constructive criticism.

That aside, even if your criticism wasn't tactful, Eowyn, it had content to it, and would be helpful to someone who was looking to improve his or her own work. And, since comments weren't turned off, you were invited to give comment. You shouldn't feel bad about doing what you were asked to do and attempting to be helpful to someone.

Furthermore, while praise is nice, it's meaningless if it's not honest.

This is probably a result of the prevailing high self-image, low self-improvement philosophy in public schools, in which children are encouraged to feel good about non-achievement.

I think that nobody likes to receive a negative comment or critisism on their work. However, a lot depends on how things are said. You can tell your opinion in a polite and constructive way or you can really slam the person. I think the first way is more likely to make the artist at the receiving end think about what was said, mull it over and maybe realize the truth in it and learn from it. But the second way would make most people become angry and defensive. I agree that if you post something as a WIP you should be ready for the critisism and negative comments, but I suppose most people hope that these will be helpful and not hurtful.

When I started here, I posted an image (now gone from my gallery) that was my first attempt at creating textures for the P4 characters. I didn't think it was too bad, but the very first comment it received was a complete and utter slam -- the actual comment, in toto, was "Not even close." I was devastated. I'd worked so damn hard on those things, and all I got back was three stinking words? The image came down immediately, and it was a long time before I put anything in the Poser gallery again because I figured, "Jeez, these people are ruthless." Now, of course, I know it was just some jerk being an a****** (I even know who it is, and believe me, I know who you are), but at the same time it sure taught me that if I'm gonna comment on someone's work, I'm gonna try to find something I like before saying what I don't, no matter how hard it is to find that something.

Eowyn....I have alot of attitude...and, may, even be considered a bit arrogant, at times. Yet, you have commented a few times on some of my gallery pictures. And, guess what....???? You did not tell me you were picking up your jaw from the floor on yet another of my amazing pictures...and, yadda, yadda into infinitum. You made honest, CONSTRUCTIVE comments. And, guess what...I appreciated them. You were on the money. AND...AT LEAST YOU TOOK THE TIME TO COMMENT. YOU CARED THAT MUCH. My opinion on this thread is: If folks are so damned sure that what they post is beyond critiquing....Swell...take it to the next level and try selling it in the "real" world. But, of course, if someone says it is not up to their professional expectations...well, storm off...and, by all means, do your best to discredit the business. I know..this sounds really, really harsh. Guess what...life is not getting any less competitive. If someone is kind enough to give you a heartfelt opinion, for what in their humble opinion...would perhaps, better your work...Take it. Accept it as a gift. You may not agree with the suggestions, but, you will know that at least one other cg artist out in our great wide open thinks you could utilize a bit of a different technique to make it better. Chances are, there is some employer, with money in his pocket, who would agree with the person who did the critiquing. Pop...Pop...Poppi!!! Happy Valentine's Day you all.

Poppi, just as a side note, it's nice to see you have your pop back. =)

Eowyn, Not knowing which image you are speaking of, or even what you said I cannot say what you said was or wasn't too "harsh" for some of the sensitive people that frequent the galleries. There are "degrees" of honesty, as has already been pointed out. There is the brutally honest, where not one iota of tact or thinking of the other person's feelings is taken into consideration. There is the type of comments that you only post what you like and not say the rest and then there is the "constructive critique" of an image. So there are schools of thought on how honest one should be, or the politically correct honest etc....it's like art, it's all subjective :) But it is all honest just the same. We don't have to say everything that we are thinking (the letting it all just tumble out syndrome)in order to be honest, we just need to be honest in what we DO say. If what you said was with the intent to help the person and you said it in such a way that if it had been one of your images that the critique was given, you would read it and say 'I've learned from this' then the person has overreacted. Again, there can be many reasons for the overreaction...but if in fact you were wanting to help the person and commented on it as if it were something you would want posted in your gallery, then don't worry about it. Just continue doing what you do. Just make sure that it is done with compassion and the intent to teach someone something oh so very gently. Most of us are thin skinned and sensitive.. comes with the creative territory..and we all have an obligation to nuture those that are just learning so they will continue to want to learn and continue to post their works as they get better. Personally, I find it very hard to give constructive criticism, fearing that people really don't want to learn, that they would rather get the 10's and the "wows" etc...I k now I would LOL!! (just kidding). Or as in your case, getting an IM giving me insults I really don't need nor want to hear. On more then one occasion I have gone into an image where there are some times twenty comments of "wow" "perfect" "this is great!" blah, blah, blah and I can't get past the imperfection that I see...so I don't comment..I don't offer up something that would probably help someone..I simply don't want the hassle anymore. I now bascially comment on something that moves me or deliberately click on images that have very few views or comments...as I know how discouraged someone can become if they post consistently but get few views or comments. I've been there done that and am still doing it :) I truly hope that anyone that comments on my images are being honest, I would hate to think they were not...I don't think I have had the pleasure of any of your comments on my images Eowyn, or even very few of you that are posting in this thread (waves at -Cin)but I have seen your comments on other's work and I have never known you to be tactless. Straight and to the point, but not tactless :) (me, I've been known to be both if occasion calls for it) And also as has been pointed out, we don't always know what the artist is striving for, photorealism, painterly, abstract or whatever. So even when we do critique it really is from a personal point of view, isn't it? It's really a tough call. So, please continue being honest, be yourself but we all need to remember that critiquing an image does not give us the right to hit the artist over the head with a sledgehammer. That's my five bucks worth :)

lol i just recently went through this drama -- basically i was taught to encourage more than discourage. don't forget to point out the good as well as the bad -- good lesson learnt :)

I forgot to mention that even if you said something that the person in question did not like it is not a reason to send insulting IMs. (Also, sorry, I meant criticism, not critisism - oops!) :)

I agree with that also Sue88, something I don't think I made clear :) Thanks for reminding me!! Pendy

When i post an image to Rosity and enable the comment box I am aware that anything goes. I would welcome constructive criticism but for the most part I don't get any comments at all. I want to be good at this, as good as I can get anyway, and the only way is for someone to point out the flaws and maybe how I can fix it. In other words please help me with guidance if you see something. Am I making sense here or am I just tired? LOL

Eowyn, please don't stop honest comments. Many more people appreciate and learn from them than those that want their butt kissed. ;) My first posting here had a rather large response by someone who pointed out quite a few flaws and I will be forever grateful to that person for pointing out things to me as a newbie to poser. How else can I learn what I'm doing wrong? And Ron, Eowyn is very sweet and honest. She'd never just up and trash someone. :P

Coming in late as usual, (but it's the time difference). I post stuff so that I can get constructive criticism. I have learnt far more from people who have pointed out flaws, and hopefully given me tips as to how to correct them. I prefer that than mundane comments. Its how I have learned, (and improved I think).

Wow, this turned out to be a long and nice thread, no? :) Thanks for all the great posts, I really do think it's useful to discuss matters like this sometimes. While honesty should be very important while we're commenting on someone's work, we should indeed remember also to be encouraging, which I think I forgot yesterday. to ronknights who wrote It appears, unfortunately, that you don't understand the concept of constructive criticism. Or you don't care to practice that essential art. I'll say this: when you have some spare time, go and surf the galleries and find images I've left comments on. Then come and tell me that you were wrong. Have a good Friday, everyone :)

In a public forum in which artists' cliques rule the roost (witness the recent "pink pony" debacle and many others over the years}, the phrase "helpful comments for improvement" is a sham. Even if the issue is glaring, and the artist has evidently banked on popularity and not on the meticulous care they took in presenting their work, any "helpful comments for improvement" are an invitation to be pilloried, whether publically, in e-mail or by Instant Message. True, diplomatic and well worded input would be immensely useful, but, like myself, most people value their peace too much to open themselves to the revenge of the cliques. I know that way back when, I posted a long, very carefully worded and thought out suggestion list under a piece by one of the then darlings of Renderosity. My comment (truly a "helpful comment for improvement", not arbitrary and kindly worded) was suffixed by a list of people defending the artist - who was in no way under attack. None of the artist's devoted admirers who responded under the painting even commented on the painting itself, just on my suggestions, which in and of itself is offensive to the artist. Interestingly, the artist never looked at his/her own work and learned from it or altered it (which most of us would have done). He/she (purposefully non-gender specific here...) just deleted the painting. I learned then that Renderosity is not about truly helping each other grow as artists or contributing our own "eye" to that of others. Its about back patting. I learned that in this place, the old social adage that runs "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all" is the only way to share our own art in peace. Over the years, and in silence, I have followed the evolution of some of the talent in Renderosity very closely. I have seen some artists whose work has truly bloomed and continues growing and being perfected. I have seen some whose talent is evidently vast who are stuck in the same ol' same ol', never pushing themselves forward because their cliques pat their back so efficiently that they never grow. But I will not leave a true "helpful comment for improvement" again. I selfishly value my own creative space too much. I'm sorry this happened to you Eowyn. One lives, one learns. Don't let this halt your own quest for personal excellence and your own sharing!

I learned then that Renderosity is not about truly helping each other grow as artists or contributing our own "eye" to that of others. Its about back patting. And I'm gonna take issue with that right now. You seem to forget just how frigging big this place is. Seventy thousand members, and it's to the point now where you're lucky if you find less than a thousand online here at once. That's a lot of people. And yeah, there probably are cliques -- in a community this large, that's unavoidable, no matter how much we try to deny it. But it's pretty obvious from the rise and fall of various styles we see. And yeah, there probably is a lot of back-patting that goes on. Again, in a community this large, that's unvoidable. But to whitewash the entire group with such a cynical eye is not only dishonest but utterly unfair. I've been given more help in this place than one man should be entitled to, and I can't thank those people enough. Because of them, I've gone from someone who opened Poser 4 once, took a look, screamed, and shut it down real fast -- to someone who, while not a master by any stretch, is pretty damn good at capturing expression and gesture. It ain't been easy, but thanks to a lot of good people around here, I've gotten a hell of a lot better than I was at the beginning. So don't you dare slam this place as nothing but back-slapping hacks, got it? We all see what we want to see, and if that's how you really see this place, then maybe you oughta consider re-examining the parts of Rsity you hang out in. In this forum, 90% of the time, it's nothing but concern and advice and assistance. Parts of the galleries may be filled with syncophants who have nothing else better to do but fawn over each other, but in here we address the work that has to be done to make something right. Okay... off my soapbox and off to do the laundry.....