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Poser - OFFICIAL F.A.Q (Last Updated: 2025 Feb 13 7:03 am)
Subject: Ethical question about textures...
Are the head textures very different, or are they too identical? I'd probably be more than a trifle miffed if I bought two separate textures to find that they were nearly identical, but I don't think I would mind so much if it was just the body texture that was the same, perhaps with the colouring adjusted to suit a different head texture. That's my gut feeling... I must admit I have so few commercial textures that the issue couldn't possibly arise for me.
Was the head texture significantly different? How about the pubic area? Seems to me those are (sad to say) the most scrutinized areas and where people look for differences. I could see maybe using the same overall body skin, but I'd pretty much expect a whole different face, nipples and pubes, maybe hands. mean different is suposed to be different. Unless the author says that they use the same body texture. I can't say I blame you for being upset, it's easy to make a texture look totally different with different face poses, morphs, lighting, etc. I think there should be a standard for having at least one default Vicky or Mike face with a given texture, just so you can see how much really IS the texture. I was just (character) shopping a few minutes ago and going through the same dilemma: Is it worth it? How hard would that be for me to do from scratch? I bought a texture a few weeks ago that I'm not very happy with at all. I haven't been able to get a render off of it half as good as the one in the store rendering and I'm thinking I got a much lower resolution version. Hhhrrmph. Guess I'm doing some venting of my own.
hmmmm...well, I have quite a few commercial textures myself, so maybe I should do a side by side comparison also. If they are selling it as a new texture, then that is what it should be a new texture. Head and body both as far as I am concerned. If there is a vendor doing what you say, then yes I would say you were ripped off and I would also be pretty irate. I probably have the textures too :( Pendy
The pubic area is identical at least 5 of those textures. Except, like I said, a slight difference in the over all colour tone of the texture. I made an animation of those body textures where the five textures keep changing... and the only thing that actually changes is the overall colour tone... everything else is the same :/
Ouch... I don't buy textures per se, I usually go for characters, since skin tone and even appearance can be modified and altered as needed for a specific render (via "GIMP", errm I meant "Photoshop" for you rich folks ;), etc... though I don't sell anything, and if I eventually do, the critters will be handpainted so that I know no one can claim that I somehow ripped off a previous texture...) Why pay for something I can do just as easily here?
I had something similar happen to me recently. Two different vendors used the same base texture for their store items (purchased through a commercial re-sale license and modified). I don't mind that but what I do mind is when the vendor isn't up front about the texture being based off another one. Now I have two (admittedly excellent, but EXTREMELY SIMILAR) textures. If I had known the second purchase was based off the same commercial re-use texture, I probably wouldn't have purchased it.
I have to say, though, that it seems pretty common for texturers to use the same base texture over and over. I can see it plain as day in many of the preview images in the store. For me it depends on price.. for 10 bucks or less, I am not gonna complain. But 25 - 30 dollar texture packages? I expect completely new pieces each time.
How different are the faces? Overall, I'd say you were gypped. ::glances nervously around, hoping there are no Romanies in the room:: How much depends on how much you paid. I could see a half original texture going for a lower price than one that had all original content. Maybe you should get ahold of the author and see if they have anything to say about it. Is it someone who would probably want to keep a good community standing here or are they more likely to tell you to @#&%!! off? I'd kind of like to know who it is before I go buying a texture I had my eyes on. (Nice jeans BTW, I'll be picking those up, too)
I've been noticing this sort of thing a lot while here at Renderosity - it seems that someone is always developing a new character texture but when I look at the pictures, its even clear to me that they're practically the same. "Oh, so they added different eyeshadow and lip colours this time around." I try to be extremely careful when choosing which textures I buy because I DO want them to be different. I've been lucky so far. The three Vicki texture packages and the two Michael packages I have are all very different.
Hmm... yes, in your shoes, I would feel put out. I have no problem with people making face textures to be compatible with other body textures, but I do think they should say it... but if the only differences are colour variations which you could have done yourself in 3 minutes... yes, that's irritating, to say the least. You can be certain that I'll look more carefully before buying textures here. Once I have a job. Oh hey, did I mention that I was granted my doctorate on Friday? Now I'm fully qualified for unemployment.
Oh tsquare, don't be put off. There are some excellent textures for sale here-- really well-done stuff. Please don't take one person's being a bit too frivolous as representative of the R'osity market. It will be your loss. But do check carefully, as I will now I've had this warning. You can view all of a vendor's items, and yes, the lighting may make a piece look very different when in fact it isn't... so just be aware. Eowyn, in your comparison, it's pretty evident that those textures are slightly modified version of the same texture. I would be quite put out if I had paid for five textures and got one and an hour in Photoshop. Oh hey... thanks for all the well-wishing! My degree is in the Philosophy of Mind. It's all metaphysics, dreadfully boring I fear; lots of logic and that sort of thing. I like it.
I'm a texture hog, and I've noticed just scanning the ads that most bodies seem pretty similiar-- but not as bad as you posted, Eowyn!! My God, the collar bones similarities and pubic. . . it's not even all that hard to make the hair a little shorter! I'm willing to bet I've gotten burned too. Heck, I'm a novice and even I can do my own color adjustments. I don't want to purchase only Daz textures, as, except for Kane and Tomy, I don't think they are that interesting.
Yeah, there is a big fat Caveat Empteor here. It's hard to tell details of skin textures from many of the store renders, alas. i'm very sorry, Eowyn. i do wish this/these creator(s) had been a touch more original, rather than recycling the same stuff--for another reason, too. Recycling has inflated the market rather a lot, and now nobody gets much of a slice! And it dilutes the overall quality of the store merchandise, once it gets out (as now). An interesting side note: Yesterday, the DAZ broker sent around a notice that they are going to be cracking down on Quality with a capital Q there, so the vendors have the bar raised over there. Good for the customers, eh?
I'm glad, Pendarian, that someone does! Sometimes I feel very much adrift... Yes, I think a word to the creator is in order... a nice polite word, of course, but a word nonetheless. Mind, it's no more than scads of other moneymaking enterprises do-- look at, for example, Hollywood, romance novels, soap opera, &c, &c... all recycled. But virtually identical texture maps is a bit beyond the pale.
Eowyn..I could identify that body texture from miles ahead...so maybe I have the answer to why it appears around so often in all shades and tones..even by me? LOL That's one of Katharina's Pretzak body textures available from the very start of her subscription side and the one she's used herself as a base to all the rest of her vickie models as well.. obviously, same as me, lots of vedors had purchased a licensed subscription from her that gave them the right to use those textures for their own work commercially, so I get a strong feeling THIS is the case! Would it make you feel a bit better to know that a couple of days ago I purchased from DAZ the Vickie mermaids only to find out once I checked the files..that even THOSE do use the very same body and face texture with just a change of makeup? LOL I have MORE hue versions of that body than YOU do already!:o) Blame this unfortunate coincedence rather on Katharina's popularity as a body texturer rather than vendors around here wishing to fool customers... I think THIS is the case!:o) Rena
[[MyGallery] [MyStore]
"Collect moments, not things."
No wonder all those naked Vickis with helmets and swords look identical... they ARE identical, since the helmet would hide the only differences (if any). ::sigh:: The only reason it would take 3 minutes in PhotoShop is that you have to find, open, and save the file after you get a cup of coffee and then about how it looks. Modifying the hue takes mere seconds to adjust the sliders. Note to all vendors: I do not regard color changes as different textures. Whether it is skin or clothing or a prop, if all that is changed is the hue, then it should be advertised as a "color variation". Only if you change the pattern is there a texture change. Eowyn, you have our sympathy and understanding. Let's hope that the vendor makes it right by you. Dr Strangechilde... are we merely manifestations of the Red King's dreamtime, or does the creation have an existence independant of its author? As a creator, this is a bothersome possibility! Carolly
Rena, yes you're absolutely correct. And if it was just something available on her subscription area for a standard amount of money (the membership fee), it wouldn't be THAT bad I think... but each of the texture sets that are now available to her members were once for sale as separate texture sets here on Renderosity and some of them also on DAZ. So basically the same texture was sold again and again with a different name. That's what I'm having a problem with :/ I know some new vendors use those textures as a base for their work and I'm fine with that... I just don't see why anyone would want to pay for Kora or Lisa or what not more than once. Once was enough for me... I can modify the textures for my own needs if I need different kind of makeup for them etc.
I agree with Hauksdotir on this: colour variations ae just that. Sellers are selling to ARTISTS. We can do our own colour variations, thank you very much. I'm very sorry that Eowyn paid for work she could have done herself in under an hour. Hauksdottir: 'fraid I'm not a phenomenologist, but I believe the creation and the author are one and the same, if you're talking about the world. If you're talking about copyright, that's different. : )
Rena, I don't think he was talking about the textures being from all different vendors. He was talking about five textures being from the same vendor and them that vendor claiming they were each new textures when clearly there is just a color variation. >>Note to all vendors: I do not regard color changes as different textures. Whether it is skin or clothing or a prop, if all that is changed is the hue, then it should be advertised as a "color variation". Only if you change the pattern is there a texture change.<< Carolly, I agree completely with that statement.
Slightly off topic but I would just like to state for the record, that if anyone ever has any problems with any of my texture sets, or any of my items, past, present, or future, please get in touch with me, and I'll do anything I can to rectify the situation... None of the textures Eowyn showed are mine, just so no one thinks this thread is about me... lol But I want to make sure that anyone spending their hard earned cash on one of my products gets what they expected, and are happy with what they've received. :) K-
Do these textures also come with face and/or body morphs? That could be how the vendor excuses the texturing is by claiming that the morphing of the heads and bodies does distinguish it enough to be sold as a new set. Don't get me wrong - I don't like this either and probably have bought several textures that are actually the same. I rarely use vendor's characters, just the skin textures, so that argument doesn't hold with me, but it might be the vendor's justification. To me, a lot of the textures available look almost identical - all tanned Caucasian females with a strange red-greyness to the skin, but this is worse. Heck, two of the five don't have human coloration. I can understand why you're not posting names, but enquiring minds want to know!
"Note to all vendors: I do not regard color changes as different textures. Whether it is skin or clothing or a prop, if all that is changed is the hue, then it should be advertised as a "color variation". Only if you change the pattern is there a texture change".
Well said hauksdottir!
And neither does anyone enforcing copyright. We have seen this with people using elements (in small proportions) of Staale's textures and being hammered (rightly so) for doing so. In such circumstances this has been considered theft.
Where I live there is consumer protection legislation, in Ireland and throughout Europe.
If a supplier in Ireland misleads a customer by re-labelling a product (that is essentially the same as being sold under a different name) he can be prosecuted under various enabling laws. False Advertising all the way to Fraud. So even if such laws do not exist in the USA there must be protection for customers apart from caveat emptor!
Just my 0.02
I'm with Cin here ... if there are any problems with any of my products or textures please contact me and I will do my best to rectify it. As I told Rena privately the DAZ mermaid base textures were created by me with bits of several of Catharina's textures added in at the end to bring the textures to life. They are definitely not the same as Catharina's and are more than 90% original work. If anyone is not happy with them, please let me know and I will do what I can to make it better. Thank you, Lisa
Where bits come from should probably be stated... certainly would be a good thing for vendors to do. 1. Used photos I took 2. Used photos from magazines 3. Used other people's textures (specify texture here) with permission 4. User other people's textures (specify texture here) permission not explicit 5. Handpainted/filtered in paint program I would say only 1, 3 and 5 should be sold! I would think only 1 would sell well, followed by 5 (mixed with 1?), then 3 if the addons are original enough. Plug: I've got some free textures out for the P4NudeWoman, all are handpainted by myself, all are different and created from scratch. :) Some Michael skins soon too, but this time I did base them on one original I handpainted, then made the 5 variations.
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a sweet disorder in the dress kindles in clothes a wantoness,
do more bewitch me than when art is too precise in every part
Well, after to read and read for more than 2 hours here. I still can't believe what I'm reading.
In the begining I thought about some problem with maybe a newbie texture creator, but after to
read the Rena's post I can't believe what my eyes see.
I'm astonished after to read the Eowyn's words and I still can't believe how a person can say
things on that way. I need to clear here some terms:
1 - They are not 5 the body textures that seems the same. They are Kora and Lisa with different
color tone and Sara in a bigger resolution. Janet was released on Black and White and never was
sold. It was a gift.
2 - The only heads using the same base texture are Digital woman and Lisa, and Digital Woman was
a gift too, just some modifications on head texture and new body textures with some clothes
added.
3 - For me, as member, is not very significant the fact to use same or similar body textures. As
artist I look mainly the head expression and in that way I can say that I got the best textures
never seen on Cath's site. Who is interested on 15 or 20 more hairs on pubis or different color.
In my town, every women have almost the same appearance in that place. Maybe you want an alien?
It's so easy for the vendor to do new hair and I think it's not made because it's not so
important for the final render. If i want to do just a hairy or shaved woman, well it's my
problem and so easy to solve btw, just 2 touch here and there and voila, new pubis.
4 - As member too, I want to say here that for $7.95 membership fee (do you pay the same Eowyn?)
I got all Catharina's textures, 70 excellent props and one new texture every month and 4 weekly
props (16 in a month).
5 - I think that it's a very good deal to me and I think it's the same for all members. Maybe
you want Eowyn, that everybody is working for you for free a lifetime? You are talking here
just s**t. So go to Mecom and got your new member texture for this month if still you don't.
6 and last - Sometimes, I can't believe how some people are.
Well, I do feel sorry for you if you can't see what this is all about. (And btw, I have paid more than $7.95...) I just don't find it very ethical to sell texture sets as new textures when they're actually the old one slightly modified. It's not even only about money, it's about a principle. And if I didn't buy all those sets separately, others did. They just haven't realised yet that they bought one body texture five times. And raska - those are five different body textures. They aren't just Lisa, Sarah and Kora. They are Lisa, Sarah, Kora, Anna (or Anna-Maria?) and something that was simply called Victoria body texture. If for you it's not significant that the body textures are almost identical it is for me. And considering the responses in this thread I'd say it is for many others as well. Catharina, go ahead and remove me from your members list. If I want "new" textures I can always use that same body and slightly adjust its hue... and then add a bit of make up for one of the old textures. That's what I would get at Mecom anyway ;) And finally, to LisaB: I hope you don't feel I was putting your work down in any way. I have seen your new Mermaid textures at DAZ and to me they look absolutely gorgeous. (A couple of days ago I showed them to my significant other just to show him what a gorgeous promo picture should look like).
War? I don't want war with you or anyone. Geez, all I wanted to know was how other people feel about issues like this. And for your information: anyone who owns these textures can make the same comparison. I didn't change a thing in the textures for the image you see above. All I did was set up Vicki and the lighting and then render all five body textures. If anyone else likes or wants to, they can do the same comparison and post the results anywhere they want. And yes, I've been totally honest. Since my point isn't going through, I might as well give up. I won't waste my time on even thinking about this anymore.
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Right.. I feel kinda ripped off and thought I'd ask for your opinions on something. I was going through my textures today, looking at my most favourite Vicki textures and also the ones I don't use much etc. I noticed that some of the textures (by the same creator) looked very similar so I took them to Photoshop to look at them all next to each other. I really had to rub my eyes: the textures looked practically identical. I went further than that. I resized the textures (body textures, btw) so they were all the same size, after that I copied and pasted them so that they were all in one file on top of each other... and well, what do you know. They are identical except for slight difference in colour tone (if even that). I feel ripped off. They are all commercial textures sold separately. I haven't made all that many textures myself but I would never keep selling one texture as half a dozen different characters. Apparently some do, though, but yet they're considered the top of the whole bunch of artists here on Renderosity. How do you feel about this? Is it right to simply adjust the brightness or hue of the texture a bit and then sell it as a "fantastic new texture"? Or is it so that only the head texture counts so you can just keep using the same body texture over and over again? sigh Sorry, just had to rant. I am so pissed off.