I've already made the suggestion in the appropriate forum that the freestuff section be more specific on the usage of the item before downloading it. I don't know if this will be implemented or not or what all would be involved to implement it. I had nothing more elaborate in mind than a check box for personal only/personal-commercial alowed.

Now I have another rant. I just downloaded something that I thought was an object/prop/character only to find out it was a jpg with no readme file.

I wouldn't have downloaded it had I known, I wouldn't have wasted my time and there was no readme file to say whether it was the work of the person who uploaded it or not.

I could IM the member who uploaded it but I wanted to mention it here because it's happening all too much lately.

Please:
Include a readme file! If you don't you cannot come back on anyone for the way they use an item and criticize them. Be responsible. If you're offering something, I shouldn't have to seek you out for clarification.

Mention on the thumb or in the desctiption if it's a texture for something else, an object w/texture or just a background image. Such a courtesy will save your bandwidth and save everyone elses time.

Till (if) R'osity implements it, consider adding either:

1. per ~personal use only or
2. per/com ~personal or commercial use allowed

Just a few suggestion that will same time/bandwidth and some people's sanity.

:)

Yes, and to add to that, PLEASE stop hosting your images on Angelfire. Nothing is as worthless as a thumbnail that says "Hosted by Angelfire" all streched out of proportion. Tilandra

I think there is a "long" version of the description for Free Stuff, you fill it out when you upload stuff, but most people never get to see it, I have no idea how to make it come up, I gather most don't. Would be nice if you could click on a "description" button and get that information, at least.

Not being awkward here Kendra, but please define commercial use for us poor thick ones who have free stuff? Ya see, I don't care what people do with images they use my stuff in - except of course the few movie related files I have which can't be used without license in commercial projects, but "no commercial" use without permission is a catch all to stop people of questionable motives selling these things in the store. Not that it works, but in the main it's effective. So in my case "per" would be inaccurate as I allow commercial images, per/com would be misleading because people might think they can sell stuff without asking me first. Sorry, but I'm not prepared to put per/com on my stuff when I do limit commercial except for images. Wouldn't want to mislead someone and make them waste their time only to find they can't use it in the store...

Thanks for all the free files! BUT, PLEASE use meaningful file names. Some thing that means something to US the downloaders! WHJGDSCB.ZIP???? Well I know it is a zip right! So does everyone else! BUT A ZIP OF WHAT!! Do you think in 3 or 4 days I will remember what that is? I just downloaded a bunch of poser files, I have several with filenames like that. I have NO idea what they are, just that it was something I wanted from renderosity downloads section, Only know that because of the directory I put it in downloading it. I downloaded clothes, models,props and other stuff, what is something like dhtker-1.zip Does that mean it works wth Dina (d) Heather (H) and terry (T) and so forth, Maybe version 1 and ker means it's a dog? It might be a sensible filename for your personal method of sorting files, but not very good for us. Maybe it is a swimsuit for Dina? I am downloading files I might need for a project I plan to do soon as I learn how to use poser, by then for sure I will forget what anything is. I don't need to load everything in the world just beacuase I have it available. THANKS THANKS THANKS again for making your files available to us! I do apreciate all the wonderfull files that are freeware, shareware (that actually work!) and all the poser files (whatever they clasify as). But please remember, many of us have 100's or even 1000's of files, we can't run them all everytime we want one just to see what it is! dizzo

Sorry about the double post. Internet stopped responding on the first click, I thought it did not go through! Sorry! dizzo

Not being awkward here Kendra, but please define commercial use for us poor thick ones who have free stuff? I would think it means using something for any project in which the artist is paid. Say, for example, I'm generating a render of a set design with an actor in it for scale purposes and I use a texture I got from MalePoser.com for the actor's skin. Technically, since I'm being paid for this job, the artist who generated that skin texture should be renumerated as well as a sort of royalty for work done. Most don't really care and say as much in their read-me files (good point on that one, Kendra!), but there are some who want to be notified, like Rena and Steve, when you use something of theirs for a commercial project. It's a simple thing to do and good manners as well.

BUT, PLEASE use meaningful file names. Some thing that means something to US the downloaders! WHJGDSCB.ZIP? LOL! Know that one real well! But the solution is pretty easy: just rename the file as you're downloading it.

Questor, and ALL free file uploaders! Is that the actuall not for comercail opion you think about these files? Can I make a image or movie using a free "not comercail use" file, then sell the finished product? What if I do a comic book or TV cartoon? If I use a free Chair or Car some where in the finished product, how does that effect the finished product? Main Models I can track, but 2000 props is pretty hard to keep track of! Of course I would probably not use them stock out of the box, I would change coloring, size, shapes, and tons of other stuff. Is that still considerd the same in the finished product as using the free image. I see many files I looked at just say if you use this send me a note. Well that's nice and I would be really happy to do that. But then some say that and don't have a way to send the note! I can't send info if I don't have the address! Also many have no txt files at all, and many that do, don't say what file is theirs. I will be dumping all Chairs into a folder for CHairs! Models into a Model folder. Cars into cars, once I do this, the read.txt files get erased if a ton have the same name, AND if the file does not say what belongs to them, then how do I know I use it?? I am new to poser, Actaully I don't have poser, I have a friends whole computer that has poser. I am trying to figure this stuff out. He is overseas somewhere doing some comercail work for big bucks. He made a full back up of the system, locked it in his safe, then said do what you want! I have his manuals for it, but can't figure it out to well yet, been several days! I don't have poser on my system, so it is a bit rough, download files at home, burn to disk, take to his house and install. House sitting has it's perks!! But can be rough too! No phone, no net! Anyway, I'm legal, even though it's not mine. I plan to buy it when I decide if I can figure it out! When I use a file and do a render, is this render mine to sell, or is it restricted if I use a not for comercail use file in it somewhere? I plan to make some movies if I can learn the software. Got the scripts, story line, just don't know what I am doing! dizzo

What about this? R'osity specifies to all uploaders to FREESTUFF, on the page they have to upload from, that all items will be assumed to be approved for personal and commercial renders but NOT object manipulation and/or distribution for commercial purposes (since that's what a good chunk of folks are probably interested in) unless specified in a readme file included with the download. All other restrictions must be included in a readme along with contact info. "By uploading your item, you specifically agree to these terms." OR "All FREESTUFF uploads are approved for all personal and commercial use unless otherwise specified in a readme file." This would be a simple change until they could do the coding to press a button and let's everyone would know the rules for a "blind" upload.

Oh you don't need to let us know VirtualSite, who told you that LOL....saying that if anyone does we wouldn't mind a look but just out of interest not neccesity :o)......Steve

I always rename the files. I add the author's name to the end, and usually modify the title while I'm in the little box. Since people do take different handles in the different forums, or simply change names over time, their stuff might be credited differently, but it helps me remember who did what. It also helps me avoid overwriting files simply because they have the same name. Book-DAZ, book-jenay, and book-trav won't overwrite each other. Also spellbooktex4jenay-kazaam and cookbooktex4daz-jchilds will get applied to the right object. :) I just wish I'd started this sooner. Carolly

Wow! I was just thinking about this issue before coming into the forums. The lines definately are blurred by what is actual commercial usage. I certainly believe that images made from the item should be freely used. As others in the thread have indicated - to sell the item outright would be wrong. I mean, I would be honored if someone used a free model, morph or texture that I made. Plus, if you offer free and for-sale items, wouldn't free items (especially the good ones) be a teaser. Who wouldn't want the advertising? This is assuming that credit is given. For example, the free items offered at Runtime DNA have caused me to purchase several of their store items. Furthermore, is commercial use only paid-for-work. What if you do a charity illustration or self-publish a free article/story/roleplaying game/cartoon?

I think that persons that put up the freestuff don't want renderosity dictating what usage rights are to be put on their stuff. I also think that whining because we downloaded something for free, and then finding we can't use it in commercial renders is a bit of an outrage. It is hard enough to render a good thumbnail in poser (I just hate the convulusions) without having to put other stuff on them. I posted two free photo-real highres textures for the daz briefcase recently.. with 600 plus folks downloading it, fot two nice comments and one bitch because it was a big file. My point is, if you want folks to continue to post freestuff, don't make it so hectic to do so that they start to hate the process.

This is the sum total of the readme for my freebies (however occasionally there will be special installation notes as the files warrant it :-) Generic readme for cooler models Installation:pp2 & png files... Runtime/Libraries/Props/* gif files... texture template jpg file (where applicable)... model texture/trans/bump maps Useage: feel free to use this model in any sort of art project, personal or commercial. Redistribution of these files, in any form however, is strictly forbidden. If you have any questions, feel free to contact me I ain't that hard to find. coolerBear@att.net ICQ# 1523909

OK...real simple. 'Not for commercial Use' means you cannot use it to make money. If you do you need permission. If the project is important to you, and the props or whatever are key to the scene, then you take the time, and get permission. I waited like 2 weeks for a reply to my e-mail for permission to use 'cyberdog' in a commercial manner. I waited and took the time because i was exactly what I needed, and there was no readme file in the zip, so I had to track him down. So if it's all that important to you, do the homework. This doesn't however make it right to be negligent with readme's and product discription, free stuff or not. :) EA

~g~ I have been bugging Stormrage about file names for stuff she downloaded....what model is this one for..is it clothing, or a prop or even a new model? ~l~ filenames don't usually reflect this.. I convinced her to organise downloads into specific folders for each character/model at least. Geocities isn't allowing hot linked images to come through all the time either. the only thing I uploaded to free stuff is on a geocities site and the thumb isn't displaying...going to geocities you can see the thumb no problem. it seems to me that it isn't enforcable to limit the use of free stuff when talking about the rendered images. what the artist chooses to do with the image is thier right, though credit for props ect would be nice to get. if you get something free you shouldn't sell the item..but finished images aren't the item. just my opinion on this. Jaqui

Dizzo... I wasn't saying that ALL freestuff files are the same. A lot of people don't want you making any kind of money from freestuff without their permission. Simple as that. For myself, you can make movies, images, animations, toilet paper, airplanes, paper hats, brooches, whatever you want and sell that product. You can not distribute my FILES without my explicit permission. That's the only limitation I place on things, and even then some of my stuff is completely free for anything, including people who are daft enough to try to sell it. Otherwise, I have a simple request. Ask me. I've been on the net for the last decade at the same address, I'm not going anywhere anytime soon. As for all the other freestuff providers. Restrictions vary. If there's no readme file then assume it is not for any use except personal. Otherwise ask. If there's no contact address, personal only, no information, personal only. It's pretty simple really. As for the rest of these observations. It might be worthwhile to remember that a lot of people giving freestuff are fairly new to Poser and don't know all the little hoops they're expected to jump through for the nice people here. Give them a little break to catch up huh? Also, don't forget, not everyone reads these forums either, so the nice messages asking for clarity, contact info etc are being missed by some people. All this before we even get into the different languages thing.

I (mostly) download the thumbnail and give it the same name as the file, often adding the artist's name to both. Some thumbs aren't informative, but usually I can just browse through the thumbs in a folder on a backup CD without having to unzip everything. (Ya, Carolly, wish I had started earlier.) No commercial use includes all renders, movies, etc. Some artists like Catharina have given textures free or cheap for personal/hobby use, and then had a higher license cost for commercial use.

I don't think R'osity needs a blanket usage agreement for the free stuff nor does it need to be all that complicated.

My idea of "commercial" is that I can use my finished render to make money from. Not the actual mesh object. I've yet to hear of anyone that thinks commercial use means they can sell or distribute the mesh obj.

"I also think that whining because we downloaded something for free, and then finding we can't use it in commercial renders is a bit of an outrage. It is hard enough to render a good thumbnail in poser (I just hate the convulusions) without having to put other stuff on them."
Petunia, I concern myself with commercial use because I cannot keep track of items with that restriction. Why is it considered a whine? Go have a look at 3-D Arena. Their free section is set up wonderfully with descriptions and usage all there for you to see before you decide to download it. If I download something and it's not what I can use, I've just wasted my time and someone's bandwidth. Where's the outrage?

True, Kendra. 3-D Arena is pretty clear cut. Also, commune's free stuff has a place for comments where the artist could also include usage restrictions. I'm glad that I haven't bought any items that have a non-commercial restriction. I would hope that a restricted for-sale item would have such a notation on the product page before you click "add to cart". If not, that would be an outrage.

To my knowledge all for sell items allow commercial use for the renders, movies and what not. What would be the point if they didn't. As far as freestuff. I to wish their was a way to know in advance. I don't keep or use anything that doesn't allow commercial render usage. Not cause I'm trying to make a buck but because I don't want to have to worry if I had an oppertunity to make a sell. Anyway's it saves the freestuff provider bandwidth which is valuable.

I do the same as Carolly, rename the item and add the author's name as I download it. It makes it much easier to sort them when I archive them to CD. On DAZ or PWFW items, I add "DAZ" or "PWFW" to the beginning of the name, so I can recognize them easier. Also, just for the record, the few freebies I have on my website are allowed for commercial renders. I don't want the meshes redistributed or sold without my prior knowledge, but as far as any artistic renders folks make with my items, you can sell posters, create book cover art, anything. I don't create things to get rich, I just want people to have the things they need for their projects. I include a readme document in every zip that states this. Melanie

The licensing at the store says that commercial uses, so long as the original file can not be extracted, are acceptable. One merchant has tried to screw with that (multiple times) and has been taken to task, but the store license that you agree to before purchase explicitly says that you're allowed to use the items in commercial ventures. Extracting files means things like creating a flat plane and "texturing" it with a Mike texture, for example, and posting it. Anyone could then copy that picture and have a working Mike texture. Redistribution is also prohibited. If you can make a buck off of something that you purchased at the Marketplace - go for it.

That is good to know about store purchases, Crescent. I do read all the readme.txt's included in bought items. I'm sure I've read through the store policy and it just didn't click.

What I had sometime noticed that in the readme files is not mentioned to where the files should be installed! An example: Not every hair goes into the hair directory but they are going into the character directory! Another case is that I got once a complete character but the included bump maps was not renamed or converted to the files corresponding with the character file. I had to apply first the jpg texture on a different object to create the bum file from it. Seravajan

Anything I've paid money for had better give me commercial use rights. The author made their buck off of it and to prohibit commercial renders would be cruel. It would be like buying WordPerfect, writing a novel, then having Corel tell you you can't publish that novel commercially because you used their word processor to write it on. I have a real issue with folks who SELL an item, then won't let you use it for commercial renders without their written permission. Freebies, I can understand, but not things they've already made a profit on. That's a little bee in my bonnet. I remember seeing some software program, a plant generator or something, which the user had to pay for to get, yet there was a restriction that objects made from it could not be distributed or used in commercial renders. It was basically telling the user, "Pay for this great product that will do this great thing, but don't you dare try to use it!" shrug Melanie Having a small menopausal moment. LOL

Ahem. A few suggestions. Every Poser site has mountains of paperwork for anyone who wants to sell through that site, but for freebies, not so much as a readme with an "I have read this and agree to abide by it" checkbox. This is stupid. If new uploaders here are newbies, it's because they have no guidance from the site or an understanding of a reasonable set of expectations. Since Renderosity does a fair amount of cookie work, it's possible to flag users who've never uploaded before and redirect them to a "welcome to uploading" page. All such a page would need is: A) a plea not to use nondescriptive filenames like table.zip, chair.zip, sword.zip, etc., and to do the same with enclosed readmes. B) a reminder not to upload copyrighted .CR2s C) a good legal definition of commercial use D) an editorial comment that people who download your works will do pretty much as they please with them unless you explicitly state otherwise in an enclosed readme. A link to a sample readme people could use as a template would be EXTREMELY helpful. E) Textures should be zipped with a readme unless the artist can manage to put their terms of usage on the texture itself (IMHO, actually a better idea). F) a checkbox that says "I have read this document and understand its policies" or something like that. If it isn't checked, you don't get to upload your first upload.

Standard read me file. Interesting suggestion. Many moons ago Jack Kammerer (sp?) wrote a standard readme file for freestuff providers so they'd feel a little better about the existence of the store. It was very longwinded with copious amounts of legal mumbo jumbo in it but, the basic structure was pretty good. The following is an abbreviation of that file and one I use in every file I release.

Filenames. I think I'm sensible here and name the zip and readme in relevant terms, but yes, that is an excellent point. It would be better if people named the readme as relevant to the file rather than just "readme.txt" but, it's something that happens and is habit. You see a bunch of downloaded files with "readme.txt" in them and assume that's the way it should be done.

Lots of other good suggestions to. Be nice to see some of those implemented.

Anyway. I'll let you all get back to your discussion and submit the following for your perusal. Perhaps it'll be useful, perhaps it's a pile of tripe. You decide.

Sample Readme:

Information:

Company : [if applicable]
Creator : [author name and/or nick]
Model : [name of model]
Date : [date released/constructed]
Filename: [zip file name]
File Location: [where it came from - weblink]
Total Files: [number of files in zip + readme]

Zip Contents:

1: [list of contents]
2: [list of contents]
3: [list of contents]
4: [list of contents]
5: [list of contents]

Installation:

[Installation instructions including suggested homes for files in Poser directory, this is in addition to zip path names and is for reader reference]

Instructions:

[any special notes and information pertinent to using the files in the zip. Such as converting bump maps prior to use, special instructions etc]

Copyright/Disclaimer/Distribution

[relevant information concerning copyright ownership, date of creation. Special permissions and restrictions and disclaimer]

E.G.:

No commercial restrictions.
You may not redistribute this file or object without specific permission from [author name].

The user also understands and agrees to release the creator from any liability for damage or harm that may arise from the use of these files. You use this file at your own risk in the understanding that I cannot be held responsible for anything adverse that happens to your computer, system, website, printer, mental health, sex life, luck in gambling, travel to foreign lands, holidays, dancing... yada yada yada....

Have fun and happy rendering.

[name]
[email]
[weblink]

Wow, I'm glad to see you like our freebies download area ;-) Seriously though, it was because of issues like this that we did that, and thanks to April that we could. I'm on a dial up modem so wasting time on a product that I cannot use in commercial work is a waste fo time for me. Not because I'm ungrateful - I do alot of free stuff myself - with no restrictions on them. But because my modem can be put to a better use. I'm also a no nonsense type of person - clear navigation - simple design, and clear descriptions. As for a mandatory readme file - that would be a pain for any site to monitor - much less one this size! As for commercial use - even at 3-D Arena our standard is that bought items can be used - unless they can be stripped oout as described above.