This is an apology from billy-home sent to me, requesting that I post this for him. :o( - M - - - - - - - "My apologies to the staff at Runtime DNA and Renderosity, I mistakenly (and stupidly) linked to the Antares model from their site, not realising this was against their rule & regs. This model has now been removed from both RDNA & R'osity, though Sydd at RDNA has quite kindly offered to host the model again if I wish to repost it, which of course I will, both to show that there is and was no ill intent and because it seems unfair to other Poser users not to have access to the model because of my ignorance. I've had to ask Moebius87 to post this on my behalf because understandably R'osity has banned me from the site, so I'm unable to contact them to ask them to post this for me. Again appologies to all concerned. billy-home"

The subtilty of violation of R'osity's TOS went right past me there. Was the link in FreeStuff here actually hosted on RDNA? And, if that was the case, how is that an infraction that merits banning? Not complaining, really just don't understand the nature of the rules violation here and looking for a little enlightenment.

I thought the same thing. If it was a mistake, then it was a mistake...right?

Well, I was looking for the Antares link last night and didn't see it on RDNA or 'osity so this explains it. When it becomes available, I'll check it out. Lots of work there so I don't expect it to be free.

If that's the whole story he shouldn't be banned. At least not from Renderosity.

Huh? I don't get why Billy-home should be punished by being banned. Wassup with that?

I don't understand either some policies of this site, but it seems to me that RR is runing by Rocket scietist, so common mortals as me will never understand what that heck is going on, Sorry guys I don't like the Idea to see someone banned just because he or she did a goofed. BTW don't bother too much asking this, the admins will not come down here and answer us, maybe a kind mod will be able to explain us this, but I doubt it. At least it is good that there is people in the community as you that worries about another member who has been banned (unfairly). Best regards Virus

I would like to know that too... Why was he banned? For a mistake?

i mean, guys, this is grotesque! someone shares hundreds of hours of hard work with others and then violates (term!) some obscure tos line and gets banned like some kind of theaf!! my god, have you copied your TOS from stalin laws?? he'd be proud of you!

This is really wierd and I don't understand it... ... but at least I managed to dl it the other day... It is a work of much genious and to share it with us is just astounding. So why is he banned and why remove the freestuff??

Well, if my interpretation of the TOS is correct. Billy was banned because he posted a link to a members area freestuff section of a competing site, competing because it has a store. So... Billy broke TOS in the vilest fashion by trying to share things with people. Terrible ain't it? I can understand RDNA removing the items as freestuff here sucks up bandwidth like a dehydrated camel at an oasis. I could be wrong, but that's how I'm interpreting this.

I really think this is crazy. Billy gives us an excellent work of art for FREE. He didn't go out of his way to do anything wrong. He made a mistake. OOOOPs, mistakes happen. I've seen people go out of their way to be the vilest human beings on the face of the planet. They are allowed to continue spewing their verbal pollution to the masses without even a warning. But let Billy provide an excellent gift, and make a mistake. He's banned! Come on, let's get real here! Ron

Lets hope its a temporary ban and that he will be back. I'm sure we'll all make him feel welcome here. H:)

well, it's kind of difficult to hold a cyber sit-in or protest march...pity some sort of small boycott couldn't be arranged without hurting other innocent artists...might the site owners be receptive to a barrage of emails in Billy's support, or would they simply ignore such an action?

I have to agree with everybody else: this banning is just silly.

I can just shake my head about this banning. The one who has never done a fault should shoot the first stone. With each fault our experience grows. SHARKEY

I think that Renderosity should send the rules out to all members. Since there has been alot of banning in the last few weeks I wanted to know what you can say and what you can't say... I tried yesterday for about 15 minutes to find these rules. I will say this...because of all the sites out there......I look in everyones store every thursday and friday to see what's new...I buy what is the best offer and what my needs are... Remember the movie....miracle on 34th street....when Santa Claus...tell some mother that Macy's didn't have item..but to go to gimbles...and sales tripled..at Macy's..

this is awfull! I don't even know what product your all talking about. But billy should not be banned!!! I spend a lot of money here, and I don't like this at all. Set Billy free! lift that damn Ban!!!

We are looking into this now... I still need to contact some of the other admins on this, but it looks like it could be because of a copyright issue. If I am getting the facts right here, we banned him to protect Moebius87. It could be because we saw this model made by Moebius87 being offered free by another member. If this is the case, and Moebius87 did give him permission to do this, he will get unbanned as soon as I talk to the other admins. Please keep in mind, I may not have all the facts here....Please give us some time to work this out... FYI: Copyright Policy Renderosity respects the intellectual property of others, and we ask our members to do the same. Renderosity members remain the original copyright holder in all material (software and content) provided on the community. Use of the material inconsistent with the terms and conditions set forth is prohibited and considered an infringement of the copyrights of the respective holders unless specially stated otherwise. Thanks and I hope this helps

Yeah, but the craziness here is that the Billy-home conversion of Moebius87's model was widely advertised (several threads in this forum alone). Also there was no ruckus raised about the C4D conversion several weeks back. I truely hope this is cleared up in the VERY NEAR future, and a clear explanation posted! mike

Hello! It's Moebius87 who started this thread by posting the apology. Doesn't look like he's too angry to me. I'm starting to look over my shoulder every time I come into this place anymore, for fear that I'll accidentally say or do something and get banned. These frequent bannings for apparently innocent mistakes are reminding me more and more of...well, let's not go there. That's in the past. What's this place coming to? Starmkr, that reference to Miracle on 34th Street came to my mind, too. What's wrong with acknowledging other marketplace sites? I've had store clerks recommend other stores when I couldn't get something at his/her place. I've always appreciated that. Obviously, Billy is very remorseful for an honest mistake, and probably somewhat embarrassed. I would be. Why do people get lynched around here without a thorough investigation first? Too many itchy trigger fingers. Shoot first and ask questions later. That seems to be the policy around here. What happened? It never used to be this way. It's because the old site became this way that this site emerged in the first place, remember? Melanie

Please understand that we can't read each and every thread on this site. Lets let Billy post on this matter.....

He can't post on the matter, he's banned...

Hrrm. Copyright. Interesting. Other people have been told in no uncertain terms that it's a bannable offence to post freestuff links to competing sites. Points here are 3DArena for instance, because it is a "competing site". I would assume that exactly the same rule applies to RDNA as that is also a competing site, as is Poserworld etc etc etc blah blah ad nauseum. The Antares Bridge has been the subject of multiple threads, not one or two, but several. Moebius himself started this thread which seems to indicate that nobody from here contacted him first about this, I thought that was policy? Contact the offended parties to check before action. Or is that just for the galleries? RDNA deleted the files from their site because they were linked to from here and that is against their TOS which is stated on their freebie pages. They can't afford to lose the bandwidth that this place sucks away from sites, so their step was acceptable and they offered to host them again provided Billy didn't link to them, they didn't ban him so I guess they knew what was going on. I agree that mods can't be expected to read every single thread but they can browse headers and if this had been the case they will have seen several threads with the title Antares Bridge in them, but... Well. So, it's copyright protection. I dunno. I find that hard to believe somehow considering some of the actions and statements made in recent weeks and the fact that other copyrighted items remain in freestuff until the original author mentions it - such as the items recently from Dendras. But, I have no tangible proof to call this statement into question so I guess I'll just have to accept it. You will of course excuse my suspicious nature but there has been a lot of erm... eager decisions of late. :)

Valandar, yes he can post......He be unbanned.... Lets just wait and get his side of the story.....

"It could be because we saw this model made by Moebius87 being offered free by another member. If this is the case, and Moebius87 did give him permission to do this, " There were several threads/posts on this in this forum. And I recall seeing discussion on Mobiuses models and posting in LW forum a ways back. As far as not being familiar with every thread.. I was under the impression it was considered policy for mods to scan the threads and posts, at least in their forums, and be familiar with issues likely to come up. Or did that change? ;} Er... whatever happened to a mod or admin emailing the members involved on something like this and asking them what the situation is, and how best to resolve? Takes a bit of effort, but it works... and it could have cleared this up shortly without a banning. Unless it was the competeing site thingy. ;]

I believe that Billy-home posted with Moebius87's permission. My understanding is that Billy-home translated or facilitated the translation of the original Moebius87 file into a Poser format file -- which Moebius87 approved of right from the start. There has been much talk about this here in the forum so you can check previous links. I think this has all been a misunderstanding. The only real error that Billy-home made here was linking the file to RDNA and it appears to have been an honest mistake.

After the latest TOS change debacle I want to give the admins/mods the benefit of the doubt. But they don't make it easy. :(

Spike wrote: "Please understand that we can't read each and every thread on this site." What is the task of a mod or an admin then? Just a tought. Chris

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=132249&Start=1&Artist=Moebius87&ByArtist=Yes

Moebius87 states in the text for the image that a Poser conversion was done by billy-home and is available at RDNA. Since Moebius87 is making the statement, then you can safely assume that the conversion was completed with his consent.

It looks like the administrators used the guideline "guilty until proven innocent" and banned billy-home before investigating the issue. I can understand removing links to the items to protect 'rosity from possible copyright violations, but should they ban a user before fully investigating the issue???????

Okay, this place is now officially more militant and uptight than the PFO used to be. I suggest we all move on back over to the PFO where things are definitely more relaxed and focused on ARTWORK and FUN!

A lot of things are covered in this thread...but the 'competitive store' thing is the one that glares at me. I guess I have a misunderstanding of American commerce and Free Enterprise...I always thought it was based on healthy competition. If someone should ask a question about a prop and I posted that I had seen one in the free area of 3d Commune or someplace else with a store, would I be banned for sending them over to a competitive site? It would seem that billy-home was hung b4 the gallows was built and all the facts were in, and while the 'powers that be' were looking out for Moebius87's rights maybe M87 should have been contacted b4 action was taken. What does Renderosity have in common with Christmas and the U.S. Government? It is becoming overly commercialized and it intrudes into some areas where it doesn't have any idea what is really going on. [I will only accept flames on the gevernment issue from those who have been inside the govt and know exactly how they work, and those who have carried the rifle and been shot at to protect they symbolism of freedom.] Maybe it is time to toss the TOS and replace it with one acceptable to this community as a whole.

I just received word from Spike, billy-home is back! :o) Thanks very much to all for helping thresh out the issues here and for bringing all things to light. Apparently the fact that billy-home and I were collaborating on this effort was missed. It happens... the flood of information on this site alone can drown even the best of us. In the interests of protecting my copyrights to my models, he was banned. It's good to know that the admins are watching out for us. And it is also very reassuring to know that issues can be cleared up, and that wrongs can be righted. I have taken this issue up in the OT forum where it belongs, but would just like to bring some closure to the thread here as well. Despite all the flak that Renderosity has come under... more power to the Admins and Mods!!! As a member of this community and as a guest to this site, they have my respect. Sure, things can always be done better and faster, but they are doing a pretty tough job (and most of them have other jobs to deal with too, like we do). I understand and appreciate that a lot of the time and effort that goes into what they do for this community is voluntary, so I don't want to raise anymore issues here to muddle things further. The problem is solved and all is well. To the community of artists here in Renderosity - thank you very much for your show of support!!! Cheers! :o) M

Hi folks

As you can see R'osity has lifted the ban, Spike kindly asked Moe to inform me since he's having email problems at the moment.

First off I'd like to thank everyone for their support in this matter, especially Moe, I'm in your debt.

Now to explain what happened and why the ban was placed.
As you all know from the message above which Moe was good enough to post for me, I unwittingly posted links in the free section for the Antares model, which was hosted by RDNA on their free section, the mistake (and yes Melanie I'm VERY embarrased) was I linked directly to the files.

I received a message from the RDNA staff, (which I didn't download till the following morning), informing me of my infringment, the message was as follows:

Dear Billy,

Thanks for the Antares project that is in our free section, as well your
Warrior Bug and Grey Alien. Due to strict limitations and rules regarding
bandwidth theft, your files have been removed from the free section on this
site.

If you wish to re-upload these files you are more than welcome to, but under NO
circumstances are you to link to these files.

For future reference please do not link to any file hosted by Runtime DNA for
any purpose whatsoever. Also know that bandwidth theft is not tolerable under
any circumstance.

We look forward to working with you in the future, and know that you will
clearly understand our position.

Truly,
Runtime DNA STAFF

By this time th ban was already in place. I now know R'osity had already tried to contact me through audre, with an instant message requesting that I remove the links to the models from the site, firstly because they believed the model wasn't mine to post, and secondly because of the infringment to RDNA.

The message was sent at 00.15, but due to the time difference, (I live in England so it would have been in the early hours of the morning), I never received the message. (I actually didn't get the message until today, as well as one from Spike).

It seems obvious that the admin staff, having recieved no word from myself, quite rightly in this case, took the only course left open to them at that time, and placed a ban on me, to protect both Moebius & RDNA, until further information could be gained. My only complaint (and a small one at that) is nobody from R'osity tried to contact me by email to get my side of the story, since I was unable to contact them.
Anyway, that's all water under the bridge now, I'm just glad everything has been resolved.

As for who owns the model, the Lightwave version of the bridge is wholey (I think thats how you spell it) the property of Moebius, the Poser & Cinema 4D versions are a collabaration between Moe & myself to convert his brilliant model to other formats, especially Poser, with the intention from the beginning to release the for free into the community.

Now thats all over with, and most importantly,
IT'S NICE TO BE BACK

Again thanks everyone

Billy

Thanks for everyones understanding here. Billy, We are sorry if this caused you any undue harm.

Welcome back Billy, hopefully this little experience won't colour your opinion too much. :)

I'm so relieved for you. I'm just sorry that the admins and mods here tend to put the cart before the horse and make accusations before knowing the whole story. There have been complaints from them in the past that people come in and start a thread with a complaint about another member without personally contacting that other member first, yet they don't follow their own advice on that score. I think it would ave been more appropriate for them to give it some time and check into everything before jumping the gun and taking action before they really knew what was going on. Hopefully, this will be a good example to them in the future so no one else is falsely accused without knowing the truth first. I'm just glad this came to a positive end. Melanie

Well, late again as usual. But glad I came in now instead of earlier, or I might have spouted off (and then thought later). What I kept remembering as I read down through the thread was the reason this was a freebie in the first place...to say thanks to the wonderful community and people here at R'City. And I kept thinking, "Jeez, what a slap in the face!" But all's well that ends well. And Billy really kept a good spirit about it. I guess he knew it would get cleared up. Good ending.

Spike no harm was done, as I said I fully understand and agree with the course of action the staff took in this matter, I hold no hard feelings about what happened, infact I would have expected no less from the Admin and mods who are here to make sure this fantastic community is not abused in any way.

I'd make this in the Community Suggestions forum, but, um, I can't find it. ^_^;;; Anyway, it seems to me that a lot of hurt feelings and trouble could be fixed by an e-mail explaing not only that there has been a violation of the TOS, but WHAT part of the TOS and HOW. I've seen where this would help mostly in images that are removed from the galleries - a lot of people have been very angry because images have been taken down for violating the TOS and they don't know how. In this case, I very much appreciate Renderosity trying to protect someone's copyright, especially with some of the scandals we've had recently. But, just my armchair quarterbacking, I think it may have been a better course of action to remove the links and contact Moebius and Billy-home before banning. As for not getting a response from Billy-home about the IM and assuming it was being ignored, it's very easy to check the last time someone logged on. Two minutes would have shown that he had not yet GOTTEN the IM. I know you guys have a lot of work to do, but it seems like this situation was very avoidable.

Hmm, you can easily find ANY forum by looking at the links in the border on the right hand side. Try looking for Community Ideas. On the issue of Antares, I think someone really dropped the ball. There were several large threads about this whole thing. There is no reason for any moderators or admins to miss this information. We're not talking about some very short thread with a boring title. The Antares freebie remains a major event to many people here. Ron

You know, I bet I could have found that if it hadn't been 5:30 in the morning. It's hard to see those titles when your eyes are all blearly. ^_~

Thanks for looking into this Spike.