On August 1, I was thrilled to learn that I had won 5th place in the 2D contest. Winners were immediately asked what platform we were on so prizes could be awarded. I responded that day that I was on a Mac. There were six prizes of software, 3 of which could be used on a Mac. Sounds great right? Yesterday, I was informed that because I was on a Mac and the only Mac prize that was left was too valuable for 5th place, in fairness I would be awarded some nice textures for my prize. How is this fair? I didn't expect to win the top Mac prize, but as the only Mac format winner, I did expect to win mac useable software. The idea of substitution was never mentioned in the contest rules (see 2D forum - click on banner -"we have some winners"). They gave away the other PC/Mac software to the PC winners who ranked above me. They are left with a Mac only prize and a PC only prize. Aren't contests obligated to award the prizes they advertize when no mention of substitutions is stated from the onset? It is not even a case of equal value. No matter how lovely, the textures are not software and not valued anywhere near the value of the lowest prize stated to be awarded. Had I been a PC user I would have been awarded a software prize. It is not my fault that the most valuable prize is left. The other winners chose their prizes first. Fifth place gets what's left. It seems unfair to use two different criteria when awarding prizes - highest picks then 2nd then 3rd then 4th, but 5th must be awarded based on value. I say the others chose because that is the language suggested in the 2D forum when talking about the prize awards. When I IM'd the moderater about the prize, telling him that I expected a program and felt that I was being punnished for being a mac user, I was accused of being greedy, told that most contests don't have a 5th place, and basically that there was no way in hell I was getting that Mac program, 5th place doesn't deserve it; take the textures in good grace or take nothing, end of subject. I don't believe expecting to win one of the advertised software packages is being greedy. Whether or not other contests have a 5th place is inconsequential, this one did. Again, it is not my fault that the only Mac prize left is the most valuable one. I will probably be blackballed from any future contests, so be it. This resolution is not right or fair. I don't believe it's even legal. I doubt anyone else would feel this is acceptable. There had been some sour grapes that the judges had made a mistake in giving me 5th place over another more known contestant. At the time I didn't think much of it. Now, I can't help but wonder if this influenced the outcome of the prizes. I would like the admins to become involved in this situation.

Um. I think you have a pretty good point here. If I were in your position I'd be raising holy hell, doing my level best to get the moderator fired or warned. Fact is, if the rules of the contest state clearly that that's how the prizes are awarded, and there's no substitution clause, then they have to give you that prize. I'm not gonna toss any more into this until I get a chance to look over the rules ( could you link me? ), and be sure, but on the surface I'd say you should start dropping serious e-mails to tammy and spike. Paul

I gotta agree with Paul. This situation seems completely unfair. It's their fault that they designed this prize system; if a prize could be considered "too valuable" for fifth place, then they should have considered that before they set it up this way.

I don't know any of the details on the contest or its results, so it's not my place to speculate about what happened. I did IM one of the admins and left a message for the mods about this. Please give people a chance to look into this. Thanks! Crescent

Barbarellany, I am looking into this now, please contact me via E-mail or IM and lets see if we can get this worked out. Thanks Spike spike@renderosity.com

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/contest.ez?contest_id=87

So, do tell - what would happen now to said Mac program?? It was already 'set aside' as a contest prize so what do they really lose by giving it to one of the winners regardless of the cost of it? They were all supposed to be given away anyways - the receiver(s) of whatever program(s) that cost less than this Mac program aren't crying over their less expensive software are they?? Puh-lease! Give Barbarellany her due - she deserves her prize. This would set a horrible precedent if it's allowed to stand. Not to mention the attitude of the moderator - that's beyond unacceptable.

Ah, yes, THIS contest. The one where 2 or 3 mods came down hard on me for complaining about the rule granting them full and complete permission to use all the art entered (not just winning art, anything entered), in any way they wished, for as long as they wanted. I've fought too many copyright battles to willingly enter anything as vague and troublesome as an official Renderosity contest. I've been in and out of several professional organizations over the years and we've learned that it is just cheaper to avoid trouble. Here is the line that I object to: "Artists grant permission to Renderosity for the use of submitted images for an undetermined period of time." Considering what Barbarellany has given up, refusing her the prize won by the sweat of her brow and the callouses on her fingertips seems pretty damned petty. Carolly

Well, We have reviewed this matter. Here is the way it stands. The contest was only going to have 3 winners when it first started where each winner would get to pick the prize they wanted from 6 possable. The leftover prizes are placed in a pool with others for future contests and prizes. Well into the contest, the mods decided to extend it to 5 winners just to be nice. The rules of the contest did not reflect this. By all rights, we only had to give out 3 prizes as the contest was set up for that in the first place. We are sorry if this contest was not clear on the rules. None of the mods involved built the contest rules and they are not to blame here. Please direct any and all complants to me as I am the contest manager and will take full blame for not making sure the rules were clear. As for the: "Artists grant permission to Renderosity for the use of submitted images for an undetermined period of time." We place that in all contests to give Renderosity the right to repost the images. This way, we could use them in the mag to promote the contests and artists. Also, we could post them on the front page if we wanted to promote the artist. The artist still owns the full copyrights of the image. We are trying to help you all out here. For the record, we did learn something here. We must be very clear on all contests and the rules. We are truly sorry the rules were not that clear. Let the flames begain.....

You better believe it! Barbarellany was cheated and you well know it! Since this was an official contest, it really casts Rosity in a bad light... Hell of a warning never to enter one of these things in the future, thanks for letting us know.

Did you have a look at the rules?

Ugh... It may be by the rules (well, not 100% sure there either), but I'm sure this whole mess leaves a bad taste in the mouths of both contestant and committee. To be blunt, I don't envy the bad PR that'll come out of this if Barb decides to complain at any site outside of R'osity. Personally, just as a suggestion (heh - here come that '20/20 hindsight'), perhaps future prize sets should be items that are dual-platform or "PC/Mac" Poser stuff, period. Also, IMHO y'all should've bit the bullet among yourselves and let her have the Mac proggie she picked, and learned from the experience quietly. You may indeed be right in this matter, but the victory may be pyrrhic, to say the least. /P PS: I already know the odds of any Linux goodies like Maya or Shake being in the pile, so I don't bother with all that many contests, if at all. Well, that and the fact that there are way too many people better at this fantasy stuff than me, which inhibits my chances of winning any contests anyway. :p

Sure I read the rules now, but still... If a store marks something wrong and sells me the item, they can't come back later and say, oops, we boobooed, pay more or give back. You weren't clear, you made a mistake, like you admitted. It's not her fault that Rosity goofed, and in court she would win. I realize nothing that will be said now is going to change things, but it casts a very bad light on the way Rosity handles stuff these days, sorry.

Spike, I was willing to wait for you to respond to me through IM, but you answered here. If you read the rules of the contest which I have linked above, you will see no mention of how many winners there would be. This is the introduction to the contest, and all that has been written officially regarding the contest aside from a few threads regarding who the winners were. Never did I see any notation that they decided to give more prizes or in fact only planned 3 winners at the start.. They in fact chose 5 winners which is clearly shown at the link regarding the contest. What went on behind the scenes doesn't bear at all in this case. That's right there with "what other contest has 5 winners". The contest says: follow the rules, enter and these are the prizes for the winners. What can be any clearer than that? The prizes are not listed in order of value or indicating in anyway 1st ,2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th prize. "by all rights we only had to give out 3 prizes" How do you read the contest ,see the results and come to that conclusion? I am astounded that you believe this can be divined from what you read in black and white. I don't see why I am seen as the bad guy here, the one who doesn't understand how nice everyone is being. The only person being damaged is me as I see it. I'm sorry Spike, but your answer sounds like another version of "no way in hell you are getting that program", not how can we fix this. Please let me know if I am mis-understanding you.

I do not see anything in those rules which indicate how many winners there will be. Were the rules edited at some point in time? Spike, you indicate that none of the mods involved built the rules, yet that is not what I was told when I complained about the unclear copyright trap waiting to ensnare somebody reading the software box and not looking at his feet. Here is the link to that thread: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=748153 Contests are good. Members like them because they give a chance to show off. Sponsors like them because they get to advertise. Sites like them because galleries and winner's circles are magnets for visitors. But this present situation isn't a good situation. As long as the wording of the rules is vague, people are going to suffer misunderstandings and hurt-feelings, if not outright anger. You do not have to take my advice, in fact, I'd recommend seeing an intellectual copyright lawyer. He or she will perhaps suggest something like moving the clause stating that "the artist retains all copyright" to the front of the paragraph. Follow that with a sentence stating that the winning artists grant to Renderosity the right to display the winning entries in an onsite gallery and to feature the work in the official Renderosity magazine [note: this seems to be the intended use?] for a period not to exceed one year from the closing date of the contest. This type of sentence shows the quid pro quo of a contract (the artist gets a prize and the website gets nice-looking advertising material); it limits the use to 2 or 3 reasonable purposes (not cat-pan liners, beach towels, or sweat-shirt designs); and a year is a reasonable amount of time (many if not most artists look at last year's work... and wince). If you talk with the other admins and determine what sort of usages you really need and then talk with a lawyer... you can probably come up with a clear way of saying who gives what to whom. It might take 2-3 sentences (lawyers being lawyers), but nothing is worth grief and confusion if a half-hour consultation can avoid it. Carolly

The rules don't say how many of the prizes are to be given out and there are 5 winners listed. Seems to me all 5 winners would deserve one of those prizes listed no matter what the cost was of the prize. shrug Makes me kinda glad I'm not good enough to enter and win a contest because I would be very disappointed to have won and not received a prize listed. And no, it has nothing to do with greed.

"As for the: "Artists grant permission to Renderosity for the use of submitted images for an undetermined period of time." " Uhhh.... no I don't. That's why I choose to particpate in neither the contests here, nor the magazine. My experiences with freelancing have led me to the conclusion that publications needs pay extra for unlimited reprint rights to submitted artwork. Anything else is taking unfair advantage of the freelancer, especially in regards to a profit making enterprise such as the Renderosity magazine. Plain and simple, that's using the membership for unpaid promotion of your magazine. Ya'll might want to change that in the future to specify exactly what useage and reprint rights your contracting for, rather than a blanket "by submitting you give us unlimited reprint rights for an undetermined period of time". You might get more pros interested.

RE: the contest in question.... I'm not seeing anywhere on that page where it states how many winners will be selected. Only place it says anything I can see even somewhat connected is this: "JUDGING: The top 20% of entries from the member vote will be presented to a panel of five judges who will have one week to award points to each finals image. Winners will be determined by the highest accumulation of judges' points. Judge points will be based on five criteria for each finals image: " Nothing about only 3 winners. Barabellany is correct. No need to be sorry if the rules aren't clear, but it's your [the admins] job to make sure the rules ARE clear on the contest. Not the members jobs to try and puzle it out when you're not.

Spike...Spike, come on. This isn't about the letter of the rules anymore. This is about the decent thing to do. Was there some confusion or misunderstanding? Yeah, probably. But have the professional wherewithal to make it right. It demonstrates that you and 'rosity have some consideration and respect for the members here. Awarding Barabellany her choice of software isn't going to break your bank, and at this point, the gesture carries with it way more weight than you think. Besides encouraging members to participate in future contests, it shows fairness, generosity. (Wow the G word.)

Renderosity...Generosity. Gee what a concept...

...and an afterthought. Many of Renderosity's members are also its customers. With their peerless consumer respect and service, I think about how DAZ might handle this situation.

"Well into the contest, the mods decided to extend it to 5 winners just to be nice. " :-/ Yeah, real nice.

Is this kind of bad PR, not to mention the potential hassle and resulting flame war, even WORTH a piece of software that was probably a freebie from the sponsor anyway?

Fact is, the rules don't even say how the prizes would be awarded, let alone how many. It doesn't say anywhere that winners will be able to choose from the "pool", with first place getting first choice, etc. One could assume that all the winners get ALL those pieces of software from the way the rules are written. There are very strict legalities surrounding contests. One of the strictest is that the rules MUST clearly state what the prizes are (and their value, BTW) and how said prizes will be awarded. And you can't change the rules after the fact.

If you change the rules in the middle of the contest and state those changes being five winners (most likely done to attract MORE submissions from people who don't consider themselves able to be in the top three) regardless of what your original intentions may've been, you damn sure better stick to it and not revert back, that is insulting and a sure fire way to KILL ANY FUTURE PARTICIPATION!! Keep in mind, even if RENDEROSITY paid for the damn software, what the hell does it matter, it's a FRIGGIN TAX WRITE OFF AS A BUSINESS EXPENSE!! My suggestion to the people reading this that are dissatisfied with the progress that this is obviously heading, contact the creators of the software that was offered as prizes and sound off like you have a pair, five will get you ten that they will seriously consider this incident before EVER offering NFR (not for Retail) versions of their software to a company that is going to welch on it's word and contests... after all, this contest is PR for them too and Renderosity's handling of this matter ALSO reflects on them. Jack

BTW: Very nice artwork Barbarellany, congratulations on being selected and congratulations for the other winners!! Jack

Pardon my sticking my head in here...it's late...Barbaralleny...one suggestion if I may...if and when you really think you cannot get anywhere...and you believe you have a very valid point but NO one will listen...contact TammyMC...from my own experiences and others who had same...she not only has TEETH....she also has SENSE...I am "not" saying others don't...please...I just like the fact that she thinks with her heart as well as her business sense...a good blend...she earns respect for working with her common sense human side as well as her business like professionalism...as it should be...;-) Cheers and be cool...

One reason I quit entering contests. She won the prize fair and square. Save some face and cough up the prize.

Just so you know, we are still working on this. Thanks to all of you who have expressed your comments. we are taking all of them into account. This matter will get resolved.

I would like to let everyone know that I just received an e-mail and the situation has been resolved very happily. I will be getting the prize. Thank you Spike for looking into this and thank you to all the members who took time to reflect and comment on this matter. Renderosity is the best community. Barbara

I'm glad to see this has turned out well! Now I can go on vacation and snap a zillion photos :) /P

Outstanding. Thank you, Spike, for resolving this equitably, and congrats on your prize Barbarellany =)

Wonderful!! Congrats to you Barbara and to the Renderosity staff!!

Thanks, spike. I'll admit to being a bit pissed last night when I saw how things were going. In fact I even went so far as to write a scathing post, which I deleted shortly thereafter, deciding to give you a bit of time... Good job! Paul

Yep Paul, I read that, Glad you deleted it. We just needed time to get all the facts in. Everything turned out for the best here.

I'm glad for everybody concerned that this situation has been resolved. However, Spike, please, please, before starting any new official contests, tighten up the wording of the Rules. Talk to a copyright lawyer, and get a translation of that section into English. Decide in advance how many winners there will be and how the prizes will be determined... and stick with it. Life is too short and time too precious to suffer needless grief and anger. Carolly

Barbarellany gets her prize, and everyone says "Good Job, Spike!". No losers. That's how you know when you've done the right thing ;)

YEEHA!

Legume, Paul and Carolly said it best, thanks Spike for taking care of this responsibly. And again, congratulations to the winners!! Jack

Cool and congrats Barbarellany. Good deal - glad to see you got the prize. ;] Awwwwww...... undelete it Paul - perspiring minds wanna read it too. ;]

Sorry, bear. Had I realized that Spike's earlier statement wasn't an official administrative decision, I probably wouldn't have written it in the first place. Besides, the only person who needed to hear what I had to say about it already read it. ;) Thanks again, Spike. I'm glad to see you guys were willing to stand by your word and make things right. Paul

Now howabout clarifying that "Artists grant permission to Renderosity for the use of submitted images for an undetermined period of time." for future contests etc to specify precisely what uses Renderosity may or may not put the submision to, and for exactly how long before they have to renegotiate with the artist(s)? ;]

Good job! I'm happy to see how this ended... the only fair way. :o)

Bear, Please start a new thread on that, Ok? I agree, we need to make this more clear for the members.

All right. Where at... here in Team Contact? Or is there a better forum, say Community Ideas or Copyrights Forum?

Bravo, Spike and Renderosity.

Attached Link: Undetermined period?

Spike...you have a middle name too...?...woohoo ;-) (wink)

Read yer Kipling, Rad. Or your Capstick. ;] SWAT!!

I might just give you a big bearhug if you keep that up ;-) (BIG grin) (in my case it may be a "happy squirrel" hug...LOL!)

Keep that thing away from me. I have a pellet rifle and I'm not afraid to make squirrel stew. ;]

here you had me all worked up into a good "mad" and then you just up and settle it the right way. Damm, now I'll have to go kick the cat or the neighbor's dog to release the tension! lol congrats to barb kudos to spike BT