Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=931848

The original thread that I posted here was recently moved to the Forum News and Team Contact forum, it belongs here! My original post which I am apologizing for was made on this forum and it was inappropriate for you to move it JeffH, considering that YOU'RE bias was the one that came into question during this thread! This thread can be read properly at the following link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=931848 * * * 1. An apology and a question about Personal Attacks? by sbertram on 10/28/02 13:14 [Delete] A few days ago, I posted a terrible message on this board. I said that a lot of people who have been complaining about Poser 5 were whiners and sissies. It was wrong of me to do so. In addition, used some vulgar words to describe another member of this forum who posted an unrelated attack on my character in the same thread. Again, I should have shown some restraint. I'll be a man, and admit that I was wrong and lend my apologies to all those offended. Please understand that this is not my normal tone when posting, and I think that those willing to do so, will find that I have always tried to be kind and helpful when posting to the board. I suppose I should have said something long before I lost my patience with the board. Quite simply, since Poser 5's release I have seen the board degenerate into threads that seem to do nothing but tear down a program I've grown to know and love working with. In many many cases, this has seemed unproductive and fruitless. While I have always felt that the issues concerning bugs within Poser5 have been legitimate, I find that there have been a great many threads that do not concern technical issues at all, but content attacks on Poser5 that seem unproductive at best. You see, when people tear down a tool just because it isn't useful TO THEM, it can make other people think that it is not a useful tool at all. If I were a newcomer to this board, I would have never bought Poser 5 if I had read many of the threads posted on this board since it's release...and I would have missed out on a great program because of it. I don't want others to miss out, and I apparently feel much stronger about that than I had originally thought. I'll try to keep my feelings in check during future posts. Please accept my apologies. * * * On a related note, I am wondering how others feel about personal attacks? Do you feel that it is a personal attack if someone sees a post by someone that they disagree with, and then goes gunning through all of that person's previous posts to find an obscure reference to something unrelated, and then post untrue things about that unrelated subject, in an attempt to discredit the other forum member? In a personal note, JeffH (moderator on this board) informed me that he felt that it was a "healthy part of the debate" when I asked him to delete the inappropriate post. Understanding that my actions were inappropriate in the matter, I am still left bewildered by JeffH's insistance that slandering someone (or calling someone's valid work into question just to make them look bad) is not a personal attack. JeffH has refused to answer my queries on the subject. 2. Re: An apology and a question about Personal Attacks? by SamTherapy on 10/28/02 13:32 I didn't see any of the thread or threads you're relating to, so I can't comment. My own opinion about the P5 debacle is - I find it rather amusing, since I'm still a newbie to P4PP. :) As for personal attacks, I couldn't give a monkey's f**k. It's an internet forum, and anyone can get away with saying anything here. I've been on enough forums (forii? :D) and in enough chat rooms to have grown a really thick skin about name calling. Besides, it always helps to know I'm absolutely perfect in all respects. ;) 3. Re: An apology and a question about Personal Attacks? by sbertram on 10/28/02 13:46 [Delete] Thanks Sam, you see I was accused of personally attacking a forum member for defending myself (albeit in an inappropriate manner) from this kind of attack. My defending post was deleted, which I could understand so long as the attacking post was also deleted. My issue goes to Moderator bias on the board. 4. Re: An apology and a question about Personal Attacks? by SAMS3D on 10/28/02 13:47 sbertram, I did read the post you are refering to, but really don't have a comment on that and how the thread evolved, but my comment on Poser 5 is general, I have not had the problems others have had, software as a whole can get me goofy, especially if I don't quite totally understand it, have to take my time and learn properly, so the slower for me the better, and I do like to do it that way. As far as personal attacks, hmmmmmm, if you "feel" someone is making a personal attack on you, staying calm and trying to understand the other persons opinion is important, then deduction of their reasoning is secondly as important.....then you can see if this is a human emotion falling in or is it just facts. You can't help but be pationate about some things, and we all can just go on and on about it, but sit back always first, read what they say, then read what others may say, then if you feel you can add to the conversation gracefully you do. If what you are going to say, is going to be hurtful, best to keep it to yourself....that is how I handle personal attacks, or should I say that is how I would handle it.....I really haven't ever had that situation handed to me. Sharen Didn't mean to go on, and on....LOL 5. Re: An apology and a question about Personal Attacks? by queri on 10/28/02 13:58 I did see the thread but agter your post was deleted so it was a bit difficult to dredge up what had happened. It seemed to be clear however, that the person in question had sideswiped you with something that was irrelevant to the question at hand. Sorta like, I know you like Poser 5but Have you stopped beating your wife yet? Seemed like an attack to me. Albeit a lame one since I had no idea what he was referring to. Seems like the only button he hit was yours, sbertram, which he was trying to do. Sharon's advice is good. And, SamTherapy, you had better get a heads up. Read the TOS. You can get banned for personal attacks here. This is not a no-holds barred forum. no kidding, I know people who cannot post, cannot read the posts, cannot view the galleries, cannot access the tutorials because they could not play well with others. Emily 6. Re: An apology and a question about Personal Attacks? by xoconostle on 10/28/02 14:05 I think it's usually pretty obvious when something is a true personal attack, and when something is a strong disagreement. However, someone else might have a different criteria for defining those two catagories. The moderators are human beings ... they can work to have universal standards for defining TOS violations, but as some of them have openly stated, they can't catch every little thing, nor will they always be robotically in agreement with one another or the community at large about those things. I suppose the best advice, as community participants, is to "take five" when you're about to post something which might be seen as an attack. Think calmly and with your conscience about the most professional and impersonal way to state your criticism or disagreement. By the same token, if you feel you've been attacked, question your own reaction before assuming it's correct. I've seen cases in newsgroups when individuals went haywire, feeling that they'd been libelled, when in fact someone who admired them was merely "teasing." I don't recognize the real-life correlate of the scenario that you describe, sbertram. However, if that really happened, I'd say it's certainly a form of attacking ... I call it "cyber stalking," although that may sound exaggerated. It happened to me recently at the Poser newsgroup. All I can say is that the obsessed attacker needs to grow up and get a life ... I guess that's obvious when these things go overboard. Internet psychology can be pretty weird. Again, I don't know the facts, just responding to the situation as described. If you IM a moderator, you can't necessarily assume that the fact that a response isn't immediately forthcoming means that the mod refuses to deal with you. (Not that I'd know in this case, just a thought.) They have lives aside of Renderosity. There's no way that any one of them is going to be loved by all Renderosity members. Oh well. :-) Although I've answered at length, I also feel that this stuff has gotten out of hand during the past week. It helps to have clarity on what's right and wrong in those "grey zones" regarding conduct, but at the end of the day we should really be focussing on Poser use and related issues. It won't surprise me if this thread gets moved, nor would I blame them for doing so this time. In brief, personal attacks are unprofessional, needless, and degrade the potential of the forums. There's no justification for them, unless the person being criticized is being malicious or doing something illegal. Even then, the situation is probably best handled by Rosity staff ... the people who facilitate the site we all appreciate and enjoy. If you really have issues with JeffH, perhaps you should e-mail his boss. I'm not sure who that is but it should be easy to find out. This isn't the place to hash out our opinions about his interpretation of his role IMHO. That's between him and his supervisor. It was good of you to apologize, but to go on to name Jeff and complain about his alleged non-response ... I don't see how that helps anything. 7. Re: An apology and a question about Personal Attacks? by sbertram on 10/28/02 14:06 [Delete] You're fine. Thank you for your kind words. You are right after all. And I have to admit that I was asking for it in many respects. I would have had no problem had someone attacked me on the merit of my post's lack of tact. More than likely I would have conceded to someone with a cooler head than mine. It just bothered me that I was attacked for unrelated and unsubstantiated matters, yet a moderator of this forum thinks that that this is perfectly okay. So, I'm wondering if this kind of behavior is acceptable on this forum? 8. Re: An apology and a question about Personal Attacks? by aleks on 10/28/02 14:07 that's cool sbertram, it takes guts to accept that one was wrong and apologise for it! :) it was personal attack from both of you, though he started it first, so yeah, ::: scratching my head :::, it is a funny comment from jeffh... otoh, he doesn't really look as if he's having fun here... bravo again! :) 9. Re: An apology and a question about Personal Attacks? by sbertram on 10/28/02 14:14 [Delete] Thanks xoconostle, you are probably right. Up to this point, I've asked JeffH repeatedly to rethink his stance on this, and he still seems to believe this is okay for forum members to treat each other this way. I will discuss this with other moderators before posting any more thoughts about moderator bias. 10. Re: An apology and a question about Personal Attacks? by sbertram on 10/28/02 14:15 [Delete] Thanks Aleks. I guess it just took time for me to get my head screwed on straight. 11. Re: An apology and a question about Personal Attacks? by xoconostle on 10/28/02 14:16 Cool ... by the way, I wasn't attacking you. ;-) 12. Re: An apology and a question about Personal Attacks? by sbertram on 10/28/02 14:22 [Delete] Thanks Emily 13. Re: An apology and a question about Personal Attacks? by SAMS3D on 10/28/02 14:35 Well, then all is good again in our little land of OZ......everybody....big smile.....cheeeeeeezzzz....LOL Sharen 14. Re: An apology and a question about Personal Attacks? by JeffH on 10/28/02 14:57 "healthy part of the debate" Personal attacks are not allowed by the TOS. This paraphrasing is was not what I said. Your personal attack on another member was removed and I advised you not to continue. On that note I'll make it an official warning. -JeffH. * * * JeffH, you can warn me all you like. This message belongs here. I have already contacted another administrator concerning your behavior, and If this thread is again moved, I will contact more. I'm sorry you disagree with me, but sweeping it under the rug will solve nothing! Nir will it make the problem go away.

Thanks for reposting. Where the hell did it go! Don't get me started.

I guess we're playing musical posts again. I am baffled by the discretion here.

forum news and team contact? er... why here?

Probably because its not...there. We seem to go through this every couple days. Yet so many non poser related posts seem to remain. WHY??????????

Attached Link: Do you doubt that Poser 5 was a good investment?

For those of you coming into the discussion late in the game, the link provided is the original topic; sans the posts that were deleted. I will admit that I asked a legal question that was OT for the initial discussion, and I am sure that the other members are competent enough to discern whether the inclusion of a legal question constitutes a "personal attack". Also, the members can decide for themselves if continually labelling dissatisfied users as "whiners" and told to "shut up" constitutes a personal attack. The GI Joe information is found in sbertram's Free Stuff. As of the writing of this response, it still exists. Feel free to go look for yourself. The included graphic is from the "GLOVES for GI Joe Characters" thumbnail. Notice that there is no mention whatsoever of Hasbro, Inc.'s copyright, trademark, or patent anywhere on the image. That led me to belive that it was used illegally. I did not attempt to download the items, due to the fact that I believed that it was a rights violation, and to do so would make me a party to it. I will apologize for reacting in a human fashion when addressed in a discourteous and uncouth manner. (In the deleted post.) AFAIC, this matter is closed. Indeed, it never would have become an issue if discretion, on both parts, was the better part of valor.