Clint and Spike, I want to be clear on a few things, and while I would normally approach you both privately, I feel that this began as a public matter, and so I will address you in the same manner. I respect you both quite a bit, despite my harsh appearances, feeling that, among the administrators of this site, you are the most level-headed and open. However, as things have conspired, Renderosity has chosen to disregard many of the members of this community. I'm not referring to the "community" of Renderosity, but rather, to the community of digital artists that has grown around Poser, that began in the poorly coded forums of PFO and the old models of Zygote, and grew to encompass hundreds of sites spread across the world with over a hundred thousand members. This is the community I support, the community I wish to progress as a whole. My goal, for over 8 months was to see Poser make its way into the realm of a professional tool... To see the artists around me have the opportunity to turn their knack for a hobby and love for their work into a career. Until recently, I believed Renderosity shared this goal. I believed because that is what I was told, and I wanted it to be true. But it isn't. Renderosity has passed countless opportunities to progress the community and the software. Furthermore, it has often stood in the way of that progress, stifling expression, demeaning artists, and profiting off of the hard work of others. Despite these things, I still contributed to this site, often approaching both of you, audre, and Jeff in an effort to alert you to upcoming difficulties, provide intelligent solutions, gather content, and provide assistance within the forums when most reasonable people are asleep in bed. At times I have done this to help Renderosity, and at times out of a desire to help Curious Labs, a company I believe in strongly, despite massive opposition to my faith. But this morning, these injuries have been compounded by brash and dismissive insult from the site's owner, Tim Choate. The insult was not only applied to me, but to many others, many of whom are friends, many of whom are enemies, but all of whom are artists. This insult is the last step in breaking what was for a long time a nearly blind faith in this company. With that faith broken, I can no longer actively support any aspect of this site. And so: 1. Please remove my store from the marketplace. 2. Plese remove any material in my gallery or home page with which I hold copyright. 3. Please review the contributors contracts for Renderosity Magzine, none of which have been notarized, cosignatured, or properly witnessed. I forthwith withdraw my copyrighted materials from all previous magazines, and will enforce that copyright vigorously should Renderosity attempt to reprint or redistribute any of those materials. Regretfully, Paul Jenkins "Entropic" P.S.: I will be maintaining my account here for the purpose of keeping an eye on things until you choose to ban me. Should you have need to contact me on any of the above matters, you may do so via IM or, for more prompt response, private e-mail to sepharim@msn.com

"2. Plese remove any material in my gallery or home page with which I hold copyright." You need to do this. -Jeff

Hi Paul, I can assist with : "1. Please remove my store from the marketplace." I hate to see you leave the MarketPlace. If you decided to bring your store back in the future you are more than welcome. Clint

It was a good run Entropic, you will be missed...drop a line for your personal site or where we can find you, OK?

bye paul :(((

Sorry to see you go Paul, but, I understand. Make sure you let us know where you go. ~EA

Please let us know where you go. You will be missed. Many people will be following suit I think. Its really too bad there seems to be such a lack of business sense in all of this.

Lapis he can't tell you he was banned from the site apparantly

Unbelievable!!!

Lapis He's asked that I tell people that he is at PoserPros if you want to get hold of him.

Thank you very much.

Before anyone draws conclusions as to why Entropic was banned ... Entropic was banned for copying information out of the private Merchant forum and posting it word for word at another site. This is a clear violation of the TOS.

hmmmmm.. which Section of the TOS please. Since I just read it and it does not say Members will NOT post messages from this board on another site.

Communications

Renderosity provides a variety of communication services to members. These include: forums, gallaries, chat rooms, message boards, instant messaging, and email. Any information provided by members using these services is considered public information and is logged. Renderosity will not be held responsible and/or liable for information that members choose to share via these services. Huh?...That's odd...

Rules on the fly?

:)

bshafer.. no it actually doesn't under the TOS.. Which is what Entropic was banned for.

Why does it have to be spelled out for the merchants
in the TOS?
When I first saw that (PRIVATE & RESTRICTED) I knew
what was said in there was not intended to be seen
by anyone other than merchants and admins. Kind of
hard to believe that Entropic did not see those same
words..by the tone of some of his posts over at Poser-Pros,
he seems to be enjoying his banning..

IMO of course...

Actually Tutone - he was banned for that - then re-instated shortly thereafter for that "offense" and then banned again after he made this request.... So then what is the "real reason" it certainlyy isn't the one you mention

One last note: you banned Paul before he could remove his copyrighted items from this site - after you told him to remove them himself. I would suggest that you had better now remove the items he had requested as he did not have sufficient time to finish that himself. He wanted those items removed - he publically requested it and you acted before he could do it himself. That makes it your responsibility now to remove what he owns.

bshafer, The TOS does not differentiate between Forums. Therefore under the tos.. He should not have been banned. Just because it is private and restricted just means that only some of the public can get in. Like a sex shop where kids are kept out but the adults can go in. Still a public place where the conversation is logged.

If a forum is labeled as "Private" and only certain members have access, then it's obvious that this information is not public and the information and opinions are not intended to be shared with the entire community or other communities. There are several hundred merchants, most of which feel that the information and opinions they share in the "Private" Merchants forum are truly private and will not be posted in a public forum. The fact that a select few of you have no respect for the confidentiality of this information as well as betray the confidence of fellow merchants just further substantiates the new policies that have been put into effect as of late. One would think that adults would be able to differentiate between Private and Public without having someone hold your hand and walk you through Common Sense 101. Unfortunately, bshafer seems to be one of the few, if not the only one, demonstrating any common sense in this thread. Furthermore, we are not to blame nor are we liable for the presence of art galleries, free stuff, etc., if an individual chooses to use poor judgment which causes them in turn to get banned. I suggest everyone exercise a little common sense and act like adults instead of arguing just for the sake of argument. Otherwise, there will be no need to waste time addressing any further comments.

Raising eyebrow "The fact that a select few of you have no respect for the confidentiality of this information as well as betray the confidence of fellow merchants just further substantiates the new policies that have been put into effect as of late." Don't tell me what I have respect for or don't have respect for. You don't know me very well. Fact is you don't know me at all. And I would think that your insults constitute a TOS violation as well. "Personal attacks. This includes but is not limited to, destructive, abusive, defamatory communications in any form, and retaliatory attacks from personal attacks. If you need assistance, please communicate with someone from our Renderosity Team."

First of all, the lack of respect issue is directed towards those who have been banned based upon their clear lack of respect for the privacy of the merchants forum. In no way did I indicate that you have or do not have any respect for others. In addition I was stating factual information about those who have been banned for their disrespect of the confidentiality of the information and opinions found in the Private merchants forum. In no way is that destructive, abusive, defamatory or a personal attack. It is a factual observation and comment. I apologize that you are not able to recognize the differences between them. Once again, let's exercise some common sense. There are other places online that you can go to argue all day if you so wish.

"bshafer seems to be one of the few, if not the only one, demonstrating any common sense in this thread." possibly true because you aren't tutone1234

Hi bebop! Lovely work on your picture btw...

"Furthermore, we are not to blame nor are we liable for the presence of art galleries, free stuff, etc., if an individual chooses to use poor judgment which causes them in turn to get banned. " Tutone I take that to mean you are 'rosity staff- then you should know that copyrighted mterial is just that - copyrighted. It may be displayed by the creator with their "permission" Entropic revoked his permission and has since been banned before he could remove it - therefore the display or use of his items violates his copyrights on them He gave 'rosity the right to display (as they give us the right to display) his images and distribute his items due to his being a member - if banned he is no longer a member and he had revoked his permission in regards to this in his statement above. Furthermore, you are still behaving as if he was banned for his copy and paste (bad form I agree on that) However, that banning was quickly overturned and he was allowed back in - until he made the request above. Therefore 'rosity is wrong in not either removing his items or giving him admission to remove hiw items from this site. "The fact that a select few of you have no respect for the confidentiality of this information as well as betray the confidence of fellow merchants just further substantiates the new policies that have been put into effect as of late." Don't use a "you" as if to imply people in this thread - one person copied and pasted that information - only one. Discussing the changes in teh open forum is something that would have happened as soon as stores weren't closed or members began to notice the removals of the store items. So your implication that the move by owners was appropriate is way off base, I for one have never discussed what is in there with any none merchants and I'm pretty darned sure that neither had Diane!

Mercenary tactics will not get this so-called community very far. The member was told by an admin to remove his gallery himself and then banned before he was able to. They should remove his copyrighted materials as requested. It's as simple as that. As for you Tutone, you are WAY out of line. It also sounds like you're talking out of your rearend and really have no idea what you are talking about. Entropics request for the removal of his store and gallery came AFTER he was banned for copying information from the merchant's forum and then subsequently reinstated, he was then banned again after requesting his things be removed from the site. At least if you are going to have diarreah of the mouth, know what you are talking about.

We can do factual also. From the galleries entry page: [I can get a screencap if you'd rather do a "picture is worth a thousand words" thing] "All Galleries Welcome to the All Galleries This Gallery provides members a place to post their original Computer Generated art. Rights to images remain with the artist." "provides members " when you ban someone they're no longer a member - and they no longer have the tools to remove their gallery and other coprighted materials. That makes it a responsibility of the site to do so when requested. "Rights to images remain with the artist." That's pretty straight forward: an when the copyright holder asks for them to be removed, and it's refused, you're laying the site open to legal difficulties if the copyright holder chooses to have his/her attorney issue a Cease and Desist order to you. If that C&D order is refused, then proceedings go from there. If the rights to copyrighted materials remain with the creator [and they do in lieu of a full rights contract being signed over to the site], then Renderosity has no rights for keeping them on display when asked to remove them. It's too much work for a mod or admin to remove them? Er... comes with the job so... tough, deal with it. What they were banned for is of no consequence to wether they have a right to request their property be removed and expect it done.

tutone wrote Entropic was banned for copying information out of the private Merchant forum and posting it word for word at another site. Well, so much for the confidentiality of the banning process. Another ethical practice goes out of the window for reasons of expediency. I can understand that mods/admins are feeling under attack over this issue, but that's because rosity is handling all this exceptionally badly. It's time someone had the balls to admit that they behaved stupidly. Putting this right would be good for business. If that needs to start with an apology by the site owners, then get the hell on with it. I would appreciate it if tutone or any other mod/admin could clarify whether the banning process is actually confidential, as has been claimed before. If it's actually supposed to be confidential, there's another apology to add to your list.

Yup, I heard of people being banned in the OT Forum. I was also under the impression that 'banning of members' was done in privacy between said member and admins. The merchants have been treated unfairly IMO and Im just wondering where its going to go from here?

Yes, the banning process is confidential info, but the banned member has made it public.

the banned member has made it public. Where?

Off-site - you know where they say that whatever happens is none of their business and doesn't affect their rules, TOS etc. here...

Well, I can't find it anywhere on this site, that's for sure. I'd be grateful if a mod/admin could show me where because otherwise I have to conclude that tutone has breached site policy and a site user's confidentiality. I wouldn't like to think that Renderoisty staff were allowed to do that just for the sake of winning an argument. That would be extremely unethical.

cambert.. it wouldn't matter.. tutone is a admin on this site. therefore.. extrememly immune to discipline.

Well, I intend to keep asking until I get an answer from the site management. I hope that admins aren't immune from ethical behaviour and abiding by the TOS.

Well, to be absolutely fair and ethical, the site mods/admins/owners were not the first ones in this thread to mention Entropic being banned. (I am unsure if they were the first on the site overall, however.) Therefore, the ban was already public knowledge, and therefore, technically, cannot be considered "breach of confidentiality". Before anyone attempts to flame me: I am sure that those who have read my previous posts know that I would take anyone to task, including R'osity and CL, on issues that I believe are unfair and unethical; as I have in the past and, most likely, will in the present and future.

No flamin' at ya from me Cyber :)

No, not planning to flame you CyberStretch. I'll try to set out my point more clearly. Entropic was banned, reinstated, and then banned again. In his brief period of reinstatement, he posted that he had been banned. That's his prerogative. He didn't state anywhere on Rnderosity (that I can find) why he was banned. He did not, in other words, breach his own confidentiality on that point. Tutone revealed that information, against the stated policy of this site. It was revealed in the course of an argument. That's unethical. It's easy enough for all of us to tell when people are banned, in fact it's pretty hard to keep that a secret when members suddenly disappear in the middle of an argument that is clearly important to them. The need for confidentiality arises from the reason for the banning. Entropic (AFAIK) hasn't revealed the reason for his ban, nor has anyone revealed it at Entropic's request. Tutone, in his role as a representative of Renderosity admin, did reveal it and so clearly breached that confidentiality. Unless, that is, anyone here can show me why I'm mistaken.

Ok, that clarifies it a little more. :0)