As a member of this community, I am concerned about the Renderosity management's practice of confidentiality. In a thread in this forum entitled ATTN:ClintH, former community member Entropic revoked his permission for Renderosity to trade in, or re-distribute, his copyright materials. Shortly after he began that thread, he was banned. I don't plan to discuss the rights and wrongs of that banning. What concerns me is that tutone1234, listed as an admin of this site, made public the reason for banning Entropic in post 12 of tht thread. tutone's entire post reads: Before anyone draws conclusions as to why Entropic was banned ... Entropic was banned for copying information out of the private Merchant forum and posting it word for word at another site. This is a clear violation of the TOS. I have always understood that this information was confidential. I accept that Entropic (and others) discussed the fact that he was banned. When someone disappears halfway through a thread he started, the simple fact of a ban is pretty clear for all to see. But, after extensive searching, there seems to be no place on this site where Entropic, or anyone speaking on his behalf, revealed the reason for his ban. It seems that tutone revealed it first. His post seems to support that conclusion: he reveals the reason for the ban in order to prevent speculation. The members of this site have provided me with practical help, emotional support, and a great deal of entertainment, in the year and a bit that I've been coming here. In return, I've been able to do the same things for others. I like it here and I want to stay. If Renderosity isn't a safe environment, however, that changes things. Renderosity hold personal and financial information on its members and I need to be assured that site management understands the concept and implications of confidentiality. To that end, I would like a member of site management to address the following questions: 1. Was tutone1234 the first person to reveal on Renderosity the reason for banning Entropic? If not, please demonstrate where Entropic, or someone posting with his permission, revealed the reason for the ban. 2. The TOS states, with regard to banning members: Renderosity considers this information private and confidential. However, there may be certain situations that necessitate otherwise. If the decision was taken by site management to breach confidentiality on this matter, on what grounds was it taken, and by whom? If there are limits beyond which I risk the disclosure of confidential information on this site, it becomes important to know what those limits are and who has the power to decide that they've been reached. 3. If tutone1234 did breach confidentiality improperly, will he apologise to Entropic, and to the membership in general in either this thread or one that he would start himself? If confidentiality has been breached improperly, my faith in this site (and probably that of other members) needs to be restored. Ignoring these questions will undermine it further, as will 'spin'. I can understand an honest mistake, even something done wrong in anger, but it needs to be admitted honestly. I've brought these questions to a new thread because they're fundamental to the trust that I hold in Renderosity. Whatever issue these questions grew out of, they constitute an issue in themselves. I would be grateful if Renderosity management could address them fully. Many thanks

Important questions I think, especially #2. Bookmark

Surely though, as a matter of general principle, not just at this site but the world in general, if sanctions or other penalties are inflicted upon someone, the reasons for doing so should be made public. Otherwise people just get `disappeared' and nobody knows why. I don't disagree with some of the criticism recently aimed at Renderosity, but I can't see that there's an issue in this particular case. Mick.

Mick, there's an issue because Renderosity promises confidentiality. It's a question of whether they keep their promises.

I don't disagree with some of the criticism recently aimed at Renderosity, [but I can't see that there's an issue in this particular case] I beg to differ Mick. The questions that have risen out of this issue need to be addressed. People in this community are fast losing the trust that they had here, and it needs to be taken care of.

"Renderosity considers this information private and confidential. However, there may be certain situations that necessitate otherwise." Seems clear to me. They felt that in this case they needed to let the members know. They do have that right, it's right in the TOS. RC

As I told you before the member in question made his info public over at PoserPros. There was no breach of anything.

Kind of ironic, though, revealing confidential information to justisfy Entropic getting banned for releasing confidential information, don't you think? Regards- Lemurtek

Lemurtek, How can confidential information be revealed if it's no longer confidential in the first place? -JH.

Jeff, I don't believe that you've ever mentioned Poserpros to me before. What you said in the thread I referenced was (in total) Yes, the banning process is confidential info, but the banned member has made it public. When I asked 'Where?', I got no answer. So, the answer to my first question (I'm inferring here, correct me if I'm wrong) is: Yes, tutone1234 was the first person to make this information public on Renderosity. That seems to be a clear breach of confidentiality to me. Without it, I wouldn't have known why Entropic was banned because I don't go to PoserPros - I'm not a Poser user (like thousands of other members of this site). I've been to that site once, to register my nick, and that's it. If you regard Renderosity-specific information as non-confidential on this site once someone reveals it on a different site, that's extremely worrying. No member of Renderosity staff should have referred to that information openly unless/until it had been revealed by someone who wasn't responsible for keeping it confidential. It seems to be an alarming misunderstanding of the nature of confidentiality. Tutone1234 wasn't engaged in a private conversation with people who clearly already knew the reason for the ban. He posted to an open forum that can be accessed by over 100,000 members. That's the answer to question 1, anyway. Would someone now please answer the other two questions? Thanks.

cambert,

Please send your concerns to Tim or Tammy directly by e-mail. They are the owners of this site.

-JH.

"A secret's not a secret if more than one person knows it".

As unhappy as I am about some of the stuff going down right now, I don't think this is an issue. JeffH is right, Entropic was pretty public about his info... While it would have been classier not to reveal that information, I won't call it wrong. I might have even said it was justifiable to reveal it according to the TOS because of the public outcry.

Jeff, I'm disappointed. The logic of your position seems to be that Renderosity regards information as available for public discussion by members of staff if it's published elsewhere on the internet, even if it's Renderosity-specific, and even if it's covered by Renderosity's confidentiality clauses. That's worse than 'not reassuring' - it's downright scary. However, I understand that you're not the site owner and you don't get the final shout - nothing personal in this. I will email Tim/Tammy as you ask. But where a question arises about the site's treatment of members' personal information, I would hope that the owners would regard that as important enough to discuss in front of the membership.

cam, how is that scary? Once information is released on another site and is available for public scrutiny by anyone, the whole purpose of a confidentiality clause becomes moot at that point. In fact, it actually makes good sense to discuss it once it has become public elsewhere in order to counter wild speculation. As to your questions 2 and 3, I'll take a stab at those, but please bear in mind that I speak as a mod here, not an admin or owner. 2. I would say that, broadly speaking, the confidentiality clause may not be appplied in cases where to not apply it would cause more harm to the membership and the site than if it were applied. In this particular case, much rhetoric and speculation surrounded the banning of Entropic which was causing more unrest than was necessary, thus I expect the decision to reveal the information was considered to be in the best interests of the membership. 3. Since I would say that the clause was not applied as a positive measure, not a negative one, there is no need or reason for an apology. Kevin.

.

Kevin, thanks for replying. There's much sense in what you say but, to answer your question directly, it's scary because it's arbitrary. It's a licence to breach confidentiality whenever it seems expedient. To be trusted by members, customers, and merchants, this site can't be arbitrary about protecting personal information. Nor can it be seen to be. I spent years training counsellors and advice workers in confidentiality issues, and the implications of what has been posted in reply to my questions suggest that there is no properly thought out and constituted confidentiality policy here. I had never imagined that that could be the case. Renderosity tells us that it has over 100,000 members: however many members PoserPros has, it's a fraction of that number. Entropic's confidentiality was therefore breached for all the members here who don't use PoserPros - people like me. However you slice it, that going to be a very large number of people. Renderosity's size brings responsibility and it's simply not responsible to assume that anything that's common knowledge on another site is common knowledge here. I agree that it might be legitimate to breach where that would save harm to the membership and site. I honestly don't think that this instance fulfills that description. Banning Entropic was a small side issue in the whole discussion, one that most people involved didn't bother to address. For me, much more harm has been done by tutone's arbitrary approach to privilged information, and the site admin's refusal to address this issue honestly. Having said that, I know that your reply was honest and intended to heal. Thank you. I must, however, respectfully disagree.

In my post #15 I meant to say: 3. Since I would say that the clause was applied as a positive measure, not a negative one, there is no need or reason for an apology. The extra 'not' was a typo and clouded the wording.

'sokay cam, disagreement is cool ;) The world would be a dull place if we all thought the same way.

Heya Kb. ;] Has Entropic's gallery and materials been removed per his request - considering that he can't very well log in and do so himself?

Lemurtek, >>How can confidential information be revealed if it's no >>longer confidential in the first place? Maybe ironic wasn't the word I was looking for (Alanis Morrisette has me all confused on the irony thing) I was refering to tutone1234 revelation of why Entropic was banned, not the condifential information Entropic revealed. And actually, if Entropic was banned for this (as Tutone said), why was he reinstated? And what was the reason for banning him again? I'm just trying to keep my footing in the shifting sands here. Regards- Lemurtek

This thread is about confidentiality, yet people keep asking for a member's private info?

The best thing to do is ask Paul, if it concerns you so.

-Jeff

Hey Kevin, Thanks, I was wondering who I was babysitting my typo-dragon :) You have my permission to keep him as long as you wish. Just remember he only eats alphabet soupl :) Dee-Marie

Hiya IB. Yep, I just looked and Paul's gallery, Marketplace and freestuff are empty. And before anyone asks, no, that isn't confidential info. I just searched those three places as any member is free to do. And thanks Dee, but you're welcome to have him back anytime you like ;) Kevin.

:)

This thread is about confidentiality, yet people keep asking >>for a member's private info? See, this is EXACTLLY what I meant! If this type of thing is private info, then it just seems IRONIC that Tutone was spouting it in the forums to justify banning Paul for doing the same thing. Thanks Jeff! Regards- Lemurtek

Thanks Kev. ;] Buy you a drink later?

Sounds cool to me ;)

So... kb, what are the sane mods thinking about all of this? wolf's grin

Put those fangs away. Talk about a loaded question ;)

Bet yer still beating your wife too. ;] Ko. I'll play nice. *hopes kb doesn't notice fingers crossed behind back... *

Hey, that's the second time today that quote has cropped up. It appeared on a mailing list I'm on, and boy did it stir up some fun. Most of the folks didn't recognise it and got into a real tizzy over it. Even when it was explained to them they still got hissy about it being in poor taste. Sheesh.

Some people. ;]

Confidentiality is an agreement between two or more parties. Regardless if this information was publicly available elsewhere, R'osity had a confidentiality agreement, per the TOS, with Entropic. Just because the information became public on a different site, does not void the R'osity agreement. R'osity violated that confidentiality by entering it into public forum discussions; whether or not this was for the benefit of R'osity, Entropic, or not, it is a clear breach of confidentiality. Financial transactions also fall under confidentiality. So, if, for some reason, my Credit Card or other personal information appears on some web site outside of R'osity, it is ok to publish it here in defense of R'oity? (Hackers have done this before, so it is not a remote possibility and it does apply.) I think it is time for everyone to admit making their respective mistakes and work toward achieving peace and harmony again. The Ridiculosity of all of this is amusing, but it is not serving either side of the discussion.

Jeff, " As I told you before the member in question made his info public over at PoserPros. There was no breach of anything." kind of says that Entropic didn't breach confidentiality as well. you may have meant that tutone1234's post was no breach, but you stated that no breach took place at all, which would mean that the justification for entropic's banning is false.

I think it is time for everyone to admit making their respective mistakes and work toward achieving peace and harmony again. Yep. If this breach was just an indiscretion made in the heat of the moment, someone needs to be big enough to admit it and apologise for it. That would satisfy me, along with a clarification of my other questions. If it was more than that - something done deliberately to hurt someone who's seen as 'trouble' for the site at the moment - then there's a serious issue about whether we should trust this site with our personal details. What surprises me is that an admin and a mod have both posted to this thread, yet neither has been able to say, "The site has a clear procedure and clearly defined circumstances where a breach of confidentiality is allowable - this situation fits them." This site holds the personal and/or financial details of over 100,000 people. That should have been the first answer I received in this thread. Any member of staff who saw this should have been able to give that answer because it should be true.

"The site has a clear procedure and clearly defined circumstances where a breach of confidentiality is allowable - this situation fits them." The problem is.. they don't have that.