Why didn't they just create a new forum for R'osity exclusive merchants? That way they could've exchanged secret handshakes and synchronized their decoder rings without breaking the terms of their existing agreements with brokering merchants. Just a thought.

IIRC, this was already suggested well into the discussion, too late as you mentioned. It would have proven more beneficial, IMHO, to create a forum to discuss the "inner sanctum" of the site, inviting whomever you desired to join the party, vs p'ing off the Merchants and, subsequently, involving the consumers and members, over the agreement/policy change. It all seems so simple once the cat's out of the bag...

I think the "inner sanctum" idea would just create paranoia among those who weren't included. Clear parameters/definitions are key to keeping the peace among merchants, dogs and children.

heh. By "inner sanctum" I was referring to site-specific trade secretive communications that supposedly spurred the changes, and other confidential and private stuff. Just my way of lumping it into an overall, but brief, phrase. ;0)

It might, but it would depend on whether the members saw Renderosity as a business, or a site that was owned by the members (which it isn't). Hopefully everyone would realize it is a business. But alas, it is a moot point anyway.

Maybe. Once the smoke's cleared a little and everybody's tempers have cooled off, there may yet be room for negotiation. Bidness, as they say out where I grew up, is bidness.

Business or member-driven, there are still certain acceptable standards of treatment and codes of conduct that need to be followed. I would venture to say that a public commercial entity is more prone to public scrutiny than a non-public and/or non-profit entity and needs to be especially careful about its public relations. If we can learn by our mistakes (generalization) and present viable solutions that could be followed in the future, nothing is ever a "moot point".

Sorry, I was editorializzing a little by my "moot point" comment. I hope that Renderosity and the merchants can thrive together, but the way things are going, I don't see how. I do think that Renderosity has shot itself in the foot. Whether they heal completely is up to them.

Dodger suggested this shortly after the debate began in the vendor's forum. None of the admins replied.

Yep, as did I and a couple of others. Who knows? We can hope that the suggestion got lost in the shuffle, and that the admins will now see it. Giving the benefit of the doubt is one of my weaknesses!

::chuckles:: Being that I am feeling a little... facetious, what is the point of having two private "merchant" forums? I mean, yeah, it might've made sense if the vendor's opinions counted in policy changes, but apparently they don't otherwise this new one wouldn't have been instituted. That and it would create a total nightmare of cross posting and question asking that would take up even more of store administration time... If you are a merchant (regardless of business, race, sex or religion) you belong in the Merchant forum. Creating a seperate on to dicuss the same ol' same ol' is a bit redundent... I could understand (maybe) doing so if offsite business was discussed there, but it isn't. :: It's like telling a person that they have to sit at the counter, or at the back of the bus... either way, no matter how you try to spin it, it is still discrimination. Jack

Like the policy change at the heart of all the controversy, a second merchant forum would essentially create two classes of merchants. But it does so without (technically) violating any existing contractual agreements--you're a vendor, and even though you're also running a competing site, you've still got access to the merchant forum you've always had access to. R'osity makes the distinction clear in all new vendor agreements. Cross-posting and question-asking are issues in every forum; that's what the mods are for. The problem is, that as a solution, the two-forums idea doesn't address the fundamentally flawed reasoning behind the policy change--which is that satellite vendors are somehow more a threat than an asset. If you sit down and do the numbers, I'll bet you'd find that R'osity's better off with them than without them, regardless of off-site competition. Herding cats takes time and patience; not abundant commidities among the PTB,

actually, one doesn't have to be a merchant forum. Personally, I feel that this is all bogus anyway, as you shouldn't be discussing your strategy with the merchants. Not unless you like having the entire Poser community knowing before you're ready. And kicking out a few proprietors of brokerages isnt going to change anything, either. Their friends are still going to be in that forum and pass on anything they want to know. So, if the real reason was just to piss people off, they succeeded in spades.

Because that would have made sense.

Creating a special 'forum' to discuss propriatary issues, limited in access, would have been the logical reponse to the 'problem,' if there indeed was one. Buisnesses DO need to limit truly propriatary information; I don't dispute that. The clumsy way Tim did it either shows he had A) a severe brain cramp or B) other motives than the stated 'problem.' - i.e. a 'hidden agenda,' as he snidely accused Mehndi of. Bijou wrote "And kicking out a few proprietors of brokerages isnt going to change anything, either. Their friends are still going to be in that forum and pass on anything they want to know." Hi, Bijou! Fancy seeing you here! And a very wise point you make. Let's go back where it's sane, eh, bijou? Our art might be kinky, but our forums are totally sane. Well, ok, mostly sane. Except when Davo's loose.

oh, I think Davo likes being tied up. You're on. :)

Because if they had done that, they would not have accomplished the REAL objective which was ridding themselves of owners of what they believe are competing operations who might get a glimpse of the inside of Content Patricide without "deserving" to be there. Every properly run site has an insiders design/idea forum. I know ours does and has since day one really. We call it "Site Planning". Of course.. the key word is "properly run".

exactly. So why are they turning the merchants forum, which is the proper place for questions like: How do I upload my files to MP - did it get there yet? uh, why haven't you paid me yet? or merchants helping merchants with tech and business questions RELATED TO MERCHANTS not Renderosity... etc... (lord knows I need that kind of help too with just distribution of free stuff) And I think that all the merchants have the right to have those questions answered. Even ones that have competing brokerages that sell here. What on earth does THAT have to do with site planning and strategy? Site planning and strategy should be limited to Admins and MAYBE a mod or two. Its got no business in a Merchants forum. All I can figure, from reading the various posts - is this: Merchants on Renderosity might have to know NDA type material regarding CP. Which Renderosity does not want their competitors to know. For some reason(s) unclear to me, Renderosity feels threatened by the other brokerages. Which the logical deduction is: eventually the merchants will have to make a choice: do they sell exclusively on Renderosity or not. Because its going to be difficult for them to keep this kind of secret, NDA or no. Even the wild idea of expecting them to keep it a secret is an exercise in futility. I'd like to add something here. I think nobody would have much of a store if it weren't for DAZ3d initially. Its their models that made it possible for the third-party content to be good enough to sell in the first place. I think Renderosity alienating Daz is going to turn out to be a bad business decision. And lets not forget the other software companies out there. Curious Labs is NOT the only one here. Some names. E-On. Corel. Eovia. Discreet. Need I go on?

What is difficult for me to understand is: it would be so easy to read into Merchant's forum anyway. It is enough for someone to open a new Renderosity account with the name of the sister, or wife, or mother, or friend, then put in there just anything as a product (even better if it's bad so it sells little) and voil full access to merchant's forum, and legal too (no need for morphing). It's like building a wall 20 meters tall, that anyone can pass by just turning around the corner. If a competitor doesn't care, it won't do it, but if it is really motivated to steal secrets, it'll do that, in 5 minutes and with no hassles at all. This doesn't change my overall opinion, that Renderosity has full right of protecting itself from competition if they think they need it. Every business protect itself for what's possibile so why Renderosity shoulnd't. They have the right to. Only my opinion is that I don't think it's going to be an efficient defense at all.

"Because if they had done that, they would not have accomplished the REAL objective which was ridding themselves of owners of what they believe are competing operations who might get a glimpse of the inside of Content Patricide without "deserving" to be there." I predicted this months ago (patting self on back). The factional split between DAZ/PoserPros and CL/R'osity, I mean. Frankly, I'm looking forward to the resulting price war (insert appropriate emoticon).

There has been no split between Daz and PoserPros. We are as close as we ever were, and I consider Dan and Chad to be personal and very close friends.

No--you misunderstand. DAZ/Poserpros is faction A, CL/R'osity is faction B. The principle split is between DAZ and CL, with the two after-market oriented websites aligning themselves to their perceived best advantag.

I think Mosca doesn't mean that ... the factional split is groups such as PoserPros and Daz splitting with CL and Renderosity.

Actually, I think CL will patch this all up and things will be all nice again. I don't know about Renderosity. They should be careful, things can very easily swing the other way.

It's a complex relationship, the dynamic of which is currently being driven by the territorial urges of DAZ and CL. To a therapist, symbiosis=co-dependency. My guess is that there's enough market to go around--but if there's going to be a casualty, it'll probably be the least-established player: PoserPros. And it's worth noting that R'osity hasn't exactly cornered the market on alienating people--PP's got a pretty strong track record in that department, too, especially considering how small they are.

well, as an internet developer - Ive seen even big companies bite the dust in the last year or so. I just say, just be careful everyone...do NOT alienate your customers!

The only people who are alienated by PoserPros Mosca, are those who feel a need to look at little children naked. Others seem quite pleased with us for that decision, and we are going stronger than ever. As to a factional thing going, PoserPros, as always, has held itself aloof from factions. We are not a part of any of that. We consider ourselves to be strong supporters of CL and Poser 5, hell, we worked our fingers to the bones to help build Poser 5, and still to help any way we can.

"The only people who are alienated by PoserPros Mosca, are those who feel a need to look at little children naked." And are you suggesting, Mehndi, that I'm one of those people? Is that your personal opinion, or are you making this statement as a spokesperson for PoserPros? If the former, shame on you, it's a scurrilous, indefensible personal attack. If the latter, well, there you go--proves my point.

I am just stating facts Mosca. Not sure how you fit into things and what you like to do or not do. But the facts are the only people who have left and appeared unhappy were when we changed the level of enforcement of our rules on nudity of minors, though the rules had always been in place as such.

"I am just stating facts Mosca." Your skewed, self-serving version of them, you mean. "Not sure how you fit into things and what you like to do or not do." Then maybe you should apologize for insinuating that I'm a pedophile. "But the facts are the only people who have left and appeared unhappy were when we changed the level of enforcement of our rules on nudity of minors, though the rules had always been in place as such." What a crock. In May, you invited me to post a CG render of a nude fairy that appeared to some, apparently, to be underage (the image was called "Joy," for those of you not familiar with the whole deal--it showed a non-frontal nude of a dancing fairy about to get whacked with a fly-swatter. I never got around to posting it at PP). In July, you and PoserPros completely changed course, claiming that there had been no policy change--you'd just decided to enforce existing rules--an utterly transparent load of crap. Obviously, the change was triggered by your newly undertaken partnership with DAZ. What got me going was not my thwarted desire to look at nude virtual children (cripes)--it was the disingenuous, patronizing, insinuating hostility you and your minions opened fire with if anyone had the temerity to question your bogus explanation.

No dear, your image would in fact still be welcome. It was not the sort of nudity we are referring to. And our change in enforcement level was due in fact to rules stipulated in applying for a merchant account with Paypal. Even as it stands now, that we allow ANY nudity at all on the site keeps us unable to use Paypal's free advertising services. Just a simple decision based on needing to comply with their own decisions about nudity and what nudity on a Paypal site is appropriate and not. As to you, you are overreacting since at no time have I implied anything about you.

"No dear" I'm not your dear. Don't fucking patronize me. "your image would in fact still be welcome." Not according to your guidelines--there's a gasp nipple! "And our change in enforcement level was due in fact to rules stipulated in applying for a merchant account with Paypal." Rosity has a Paypal account--see the TOS regarding images of "young-looking humanoids." "As to you, you are overreacting since at no time have I implied anything about you." Horseshit. Here's what you said: "The only people who are alienated by PoserPros Mosca, are those who feel a need to look at little children naked." The insinuation is clear--I'm not a fan of PP, therefore I'm a pedophile. Yeah, I resent that kind of insinuation. No, I don't think I'm over-reacting.

I had no idea you are alienated since I do not read minds. Only you know how you feel. I would never presume to guess. But since you now admit you resent PoserPros, I shall cease discussing this since it is not productive and everything I am saying is falling on deaf ears. We can't please everyone all the time :)

Well, there you go. No apology, just a chickenshit semantic retreat. Not that I expected anything different. I was actually on your side in this thing, but I've changed my mind. Clearly, R'osity was right in ditching you. See ya. Don't let the MP door hit you in the ass.

Attached Link: Renderosity Online Store's Grand Opening! (Update)

Yep bijouchat. How soon they forget who made this place, who built it, who supported it. This is not a case of whether you personally like or dislike any of these people. It is a matter of whether this policy is right or wrong, offensive or not offensive, fair or unfair, ethical or unethical. Most of the "founders" and "worker bees" of most sites are not the most particularly "likable" people at all times... it is the way the cookie tends to crumble. God hands out all sorts of talent, and is very fair. Some of you got charm and charisma, some got willingness to be workhorses and tote the load. Yet it is still on these peoples hard work that the foundation of Renderosity has been built.

Nick is actually bijou :) I just don't have my usual nick here because one of those inactive leech accounts got here before I did. sure it has to do if I like somebody or not. Because if its someone I like and has shown me decency and respect - it affects me much more deeply. I think the leeches are noble people. God save the leeches. :) Without leeches, who would you have power over? Wait, I'm atheist... god cant save the leeches because he/she/them/it is just a ( ( . ) ) Dot. :) (no, its not a backside, its a representation of an eyeball and its blind spot as best as I can do it in ascii)

Kind of looks like a wiggling tushie to me bijou ;]

my webpage has a way better illustration. I could have probably linked to it, I guess... I'm lazy.

Nothing wrong with a wiggling tushie :) Just another example of Art being in the eye of the beholder :) I like you Rosity Gallery, are your images done in photoshop ?? Dee-Marie

thanks Dee-Marie :)) depends on the pics. I have one Poser pic, that is basically 'pure poser' with some postwork, in the Poser gallery. everything in 2d art except the pencil sketch is photoshop. Pencil sketch is a scanned drawing of mine, of course. The one in mixed media is a combination Poser figure and Photoshop painting... very heavy on the photoshop painting - I literally painted over the poser figures I rendered... And I have a couple pics in the Carrara gallery, done with Carrara 2 :)) Those have virtually no postwork (much less than even the Poser pic), just to smudge a hard angle here and there. :)